Yudhistira's curse to womenhood

[valaya]

What Srila Prabhupada and so many others presented and continue to offer freely is guaranteed effective for all who accept it, though usually it takes much time and many tears. First we listen, then we hear and afterwords we try practicing what we've seen and heard. Practice makes perfect!

 

Those who have actually tasted the pudding know it's potency personally. Those who for one reason or another prefer to talk about it will never appreciate His Divine Grace quite as fully, what to speak of personally.

 

It is not helpful for anyone to criticize that which they are unable to accept in others because they themselves have not directly experienced it themselves. That alone will limit their own progress and prevent any genuine spiritual sentiment from arising in their hearts. That's why it's called apaRADHA. She remains the personified source of His Divine Grace, both the means and the end for the devotees. It's Her devotion, not ours!

 

What is supposedly seen in others which allows us to define ourselves as more is simply a reflection of our own inadequacies and proof that we are usually much less than we may think we are. There are two threads I'll add here, one entitled `Society Without Envy` and the other about apaRADHA:

 

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001079.html

 

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001066.html

 

 

------------------

Radhe Radhe always Radhe!

HARIBOL! HARIBOL! HARIBOL!

amanpeter@hotmail.com

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-09-2002).]

[Gauracandra]

Some people will say we need to beware of saints like Srila Prabhupada because they keep certain teachings 'secret'. But actually, these teachings are 'secret' because they are 'sacred'. The great saints didn't want these sublime teachings to be taken as cheap by casual people. In point of fact, none of these teachings are secret anymore due to the internet. You want to find the gayatri mantra? I'm sure you can find it on the internet. You want to read about the erotic pastimes of Radha and Krsna? Its out there. The saints wanted to keep the casual person, with his casual mundane lifestyles away from these sublime teachings. Unfortunately, on the internet we find many people who take these sacred teachings very cheaply. One moment they are calling out "Radhe, Radhe, I'm Radha's Runt" in bold italicized words. The next minute they will post how they collect money at parties by promising not to fart, or how one needs to place their 'cajones' at the feet of Radha in order to hide under Her skirt (this one almost made me want to puke when I read it a number of months back).... How low, how cheap.... I believe the word for such a person is Sahajiya.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Lord Krishna does keep secrets based on the qualification of the individual. Qualification has nothing to do with caste, creed or religion. Anyone can qualify himself to receive this transcendental knowledge. It is a sacrifice one takes for the Lord, without which Krishna keeps things secret from us; which is for our own benefit.

 

idam te natapaskaya

nabhaktaya kadacana

na casusrusave vacyam

na ca mam yo 'bhyasuyati

 

"This confidential knowledge may not be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me."

 

Krishna states to Arjuna clearly why he is receiving this transcendental knowledge. It is not because Lord Krishna is just throwing it around left and right, but because Arjuna is qualified to receive it:

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

idam tu te guhyatamam

pravaksyamy anasuyave

jnanam vijnana-sahitam

yaj jnatva moksyase 'subhat

 

"The Supreme Lord said: My dear Arjuna, because you are never envious of Me, I shall impart to you this most secret wisdom, knowing which you shall be relieved of the miseries of material existence."

 

And for those who are not qualified, Lord Krishna has another plan for them, which is in their ultimate self-interest:

 

tan aham dvisatah kruran

samsaresu naradhaman

ksipamy ajasram asubhan

asurisv eva yonisu

 

"Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life."

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Some people will say we need to beware of saints like Srila Prabhupada because they keep certain teachings 'secret'. But actually, these teachings are 'secret' because they are 'sacred'. The great saints didn't want these sublime teachings to be taken as cheap by casual people. In point of fact, none of these teachings are secret anymore due to the internet. You want to find the gayatri mantra? I'm sure you can find it on the internet. You want to read about the erotic pastimes of Radha and Krsna? Its out there. The saints wanted to keep the casual person, with his casual mundane lifestyles away from these sublime teachings. Unfortunately, on the internet we find many people who take these sacred teachings very cheaply. One moment they are calling out "Radhe, Radhe, I'm Radha's Runt" in bold italicized words. The next minute they will post how they collect money at parties by promising not to fart, or how one needs to place their 'cajones' at the feet of Radha in order to hide under Her skirt (this one almost made me want to puke when I read it a number of months back).... How low, how cheap.... I believe the word for such a person is Sahajiya.

...and you are fully entitled to your individual beliefs, opinions, thoughts, feelings, sentiments, etc.etc. Not only that, you have the right to reasonably express them here, as far as I'm concerned anyway.

 

None of us are perfect yet and I appreciate being reined in occasionally, though there are ways to do that more effectively without taking out one's personal frustration. Some of your points are well-taken and will be considered in future posts. Often certain individuals just grate on each other and some intentionally provoke. I do get frustrated sometimes, I'll admit. One thing though, I have always been completely truthful when revealing myself.

 

Fact is, my life was RADHAcly altered by first His Divine Grace embodied as Srila Prabhupada and then through an unusual exceptionally powerful darshan in front of the deity of Srimati Radharani here in Toronto. I consider myself saved by Divine Grace alone, but obviously a lot more work is going to be needed. I'm hoping my next body will be more suitable and circumstances will fall into place quite naturally.

 

I do not pretend to be a devotee and especially not a practising Gaudiya Vaisnava, but we are all part of the same God and each of us does have a personal eternal relationship with Him and/or Her which cannot be forceably interfered with by anyone, other than mutual agreement between a guru and his disciple.

 

There are reasons I often spontaneously express myself as I do, though I doubt you could understand or accept them. Prabhupada was/is Prabhupada, you are you, and I am myself. All of us are separate unique individuals. Guru is a position, not a person. If I could encourage one thing only, it would be to have complete faith in God's Loving Grace and one's own unique self simultaneously. We need only be ourselves and allow others the same freedom. The more we see of value in each other, the more we will be inspired to become more in each other's company. Fault-finding is easy, seeing only the best is what's difficult.

 

As Krsna says in Srimad Bhagavad-gita, we were always together and will remain together forever, as individual persons. I have no doubt that everything will work out eventually for all of us, probably relatively soon due to our personal involvement with Sri Guru, even if some of us have not taken formal initiation vows.

 

Krsna and Radha are ultimately in control, this is Lord Sri Caitanya's Sankirtan Movement and we have all become caught up in it through His causeless mercy. Surely the best is yet to come!

 

valaya

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-09-2002).]

[valaya]

Originally posted by jndas:

Lord Krishna does keep secrets based on the qualification of the individual. Qualification has nothing to do with caste, creed or religion. Anyone can qualify himself to receive this transcendental knowledge. It is a sacrifice one takes for the Lord, without which Krishna keeps things secret from us; which is for our own benefit.

 

idam te natapaskaya

nabhaktaya kadacana

na casusrusave vacyam

na ca mam yo 'bhyasuyati

 

"This confidential knowledge may not be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me."

 

Krishna states to Arjuna clearly why he is receiving this transcendental knowledge. It is not because Lord Krishna is just throwing it around left and right, but because Arjuna is qualified to receive it:

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

idam tu te guhyatamam

pravaksyamy anasuyave

jnanam vijnana-sahitam

yaj jnatva moksyase 'subhat

 

"The Supreme Lord said: My dear Arjuna, because you are never envious of Me, I shall impart to you this most secret wisdom, knowing which you shall be relieved of the miseries of material existence."

 

And for those who are not qualified, Lord Krishna has another plan for them, which is in their ultimate self-interest:

 

tan aham dvisatah kruran

samsaresu naradhaman

ksipamy ajasram asubhan

asurisv eva yonisu

 

"Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life."

What Lord Krsna revealed to his friend and disciple Arjuna is freely available to everyone, moreso now than ever before. Whether or not we can acually realize it all is wholly dependent on His Divine Grace and Krsna giving `the intelligence by which we can come to Him`. Whatever qualifications we might need must also be given! The unveiling process remains an ongoing one...

 

Our relationship with God is eternal, but after the personal connection with Sri Guru it intensifies and all doors are opened at once. It is for us to learn how to utilize His Divine Grace to walk through those doors. We are pushed and pulled, but there is no going back...

 

At the start, most of us think we can run before we're even able to walk, but after awhile a certain stability is reached. Even though progress may appear slow at that point, much more is happening than we are capable of realizing, since our minds and false-egos insist on believing they're in control and taking credit accordingly. False pride gets in the way...

 

It can all come together very quickly though under the right circumstances, when we're ready to fully accept the role of Divine Grace. Sometimes when we least expect it...

 

As for confidential knowledge, whatever is secret will surely remain so. That's not under our control either! Regardless of what we may say or attempt to reveal to others, they simply won't get it. My own experience is that by sharing my most personal secrets heart-to-heart with Radhika, She shares Hers with me. It simply doesn't work with Krsna, at least not for me...

 

Each of us does have an intimate relationship with God if we choose not to ignore it by intentionally remaining in ignorance. His Divine Grace has opened all the doors, but the choice is ours where and how we invest our personal emotional attachments. That's my secret I long to share with you...

 

valaya

 

 

 

------------------

Radhe Radhe always Radhe!

HARIBOL! HARIBOL! HARIBOL!

amanpeter@hotmail.com

[valaya]

I just went through this entire thread again and it's quite amazing how it changes with rapid twists and turns. Maybe it's the male-female energy that makes it more volatile. First Atma posed what on the surface seems a straightforward question about a particular incident, but it quickly goes into the male-female thing. Avinash makes it more personal and Tarun--well, Tarun just Taruns it up to a new level.

 

Then JRdd (where'd she come from?) chirps in with this provocative teasing input: "LOL! Atma is right on form, love the improv, sister. Right on. (hee hee hee)" That of course cranks up Tarun and Avinash until Suryaz comes on with, "I am confused--I do not get it." Then begins her whole empowerment bit, which really seems to set off the guys and a new participant, sushil, adds something which may or not make sense but is completely unintelligible to me, though not any more so than Tarun and avinash have become. Could it be true, they actually do drive us nuts?

 

Alright, so jndas tries to answer suryaz's allegations of women's disempowerment, but I come in responding to what I perceived as attempts to control by `priests` in their own selfish interests. jndas then somehow connects secrets with `confidential knowledge` in scripture and Gauracandra lashes out at what he perceives as anti-Prabhupada in my reference to priests (not referring to gurus at all, especially not him), which turns into an attack on my post suggesting suryaz may be tripping over herself by attempting to put all this together intellectually.

 

Finally we're into Sahajiyism and my past posts going back to who knows when. So far we're at me trying to explain myself, somewhat apologetically, to both jndas and Gauracandra, more or less totally removed from atma's original question. Can I back out now, as gracefully as possible? It was kinda fun at the start, but now it's not. Say, isn't that the way it is in the mode of passion...not that there's any relation with anything or anyone here. It just came to mind. Haribol, prabhus!

 

valaya

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-10-2002).]

[atma]

Valaya prabhu said:

 

"First Atma posed what on the surface seems a sraightforward question about a particular incident, but it quickly goes into the male-female thing. Avinash makes it more personal and Tarun--well, Tarun just Taruns it up to a new level.."

 

For the record, I never posed a question here, I just shared what I thought was interesting while I watched Mahabharata.And I'm a very straight-forward person regardless of what anybody thinks. I did have fun with Avinash and Tarun's comments. I apreciate sense of humor and wit in people.

 

 

 

[Tarun]

On the one hand we have KuntidevI almost on YazodAmayi's level.

On the other hand, we have her keeping KarNa's identity secret.

Not just overnight. For 100 yrs!

Am I the only one this story disturbs?

This is YogamAyA's expert arrangement, of course.

[valaya]

Originally posted by atma:

Valaya prabhu said:

 

"First Atma posed what on the surface seems a sraightforward question about a particular incident, but it quickly goes into the male-female thing. Avinash makes it more personal and Tarun--well, Tarun just Taruns it up to a new level.."

 

atma: For the record, I never posed a question here, I just shared what I thought was interesting while I watched Mahabharata.And I'm a very straight-forward person regardless of what anybody thinks. I did have fun with Avinash and Tarun's comments. I apreciate sense of humor and wit in people.

valaya: Just giving my general overall impression of how it went from beginning to present, obviously subjective with only a brief look. When I say `seems` or `appears` it is saying that what I get from something may not be as intended or how others perceive it.

 

In other words, I was right to consider atma straightforward and wrong to think "interesting" implied a question or that her posting was inviting a discussion of what she'd pointed out in what she'd seen. Was it reasonable for me to assume such? Well, I'm merely a member of the male species, so can only keep trying to understand the far more complex and highly subtle communication of females.

 

Yes, I do appreciate your straightforwardness and honesty, atma prabhu, as well as your sharp wit and sense of humor. I like strong women in general, when they remain female, as you most definitely are. Also, when you speak personally about your children and life in the past and present I'm grateful for your sharing yourself more intimately here. This is certainly not done by everyone, but I really wish it was. If only we could simply be ourselves, without fear, all one family regardless. Then I'm an idealistic dreamer and a fool at best, aren't I?

 

Best wishes, valaya

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-10-2002).]

[Tarun]

Both bhaktas & bhaktiMs are striving for transcendence.

Some have achieved, others are still on their way.

Yudhisthir, KuntidevI & all other MahAbharat characters are the Supreme Lord's personal associates.

When they come in slight contact with material energy...

[suryaz]

Originally posted by Tarun:

Both bhaktas & bhaktiMs are striving for transcendence.

Some have achieved, others are still on their way.

Yudhisthir, KuntidevI & all other MahAbharat characters are the Supreme Lord's personal associates.

When they come in slight contact with material energy...

 

it becomes chintamani?

 

[suryaz]

Originally posted by valaya:

I just went through this entire thread again and it's quite amazing how it changes with rapid twists and turns. Maybe it's the male-female energy that makes it more volatile. First Atma posed what on the surface seems a sraightforward question about a particular incident, but it quickly goes into the male-female thing. Avinash makes it more personal and Tarun--well, Tarun just Taruns it up to a new level.

 

Then JRdd (where'd she come from?) chirps in with this provocative teasing input: "LOL! Atma is right on form, love the improv, sister. Right on. (hee hee hee)" That of course cranks up Tarun and Avinash until Suryaz comes on with, "I am confused--I do not get it." Then begins her whole empowerment bit, which really seems to set off the guys and a new participant, sushil, adds something which may or not make sense but is completely unintelligible to me, though not any more so than Tarun and avinash have become. Could it be true, they actually do drive us nuts?

 

Alright, so jndas tries to answer suryaz's allegations of women's disempowerment, but I come in responding to what I perceived as attempts to control by `priests` in their own selfish interests. jndas then somehow connects secrets with `confidential knowledge` in scripture and Gauracandra lashes out at what he perceives as anti-Prabhupada in my reference to priests (not referring to gurus at all, especially not him), which turns into an attack on my post suggesting suryaz may be tripping over herself by attempting to put all this together intellectually.

 

Finally we're into Sahajiyism and my past posts going back to who knows when. So far we're at me trying to explain myself, somewhat apologetically, to both jndas and Gauracandra, more or less totally removed from atma's original question. Can I back out now, as gracefully as possible? It was kinda fun at the start, but now it's not. Say, isn't that the way it is in the mode of passion...not that there's any relation with anything or anyone here. It just came to mind. Haribol, prabhus!

 

valaya

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-10-2002).]

Jndas,

To support your position and to get your view across, you used what I call poly-pseudo-diction. Your secrecy argument is not cogent. You use the word secrecy out of context to support your argument. Eg you used the word secrecy in the raja-vija verse to support your view that Krsna supported secrecy. However, the way it is used therein supports the opposite. Prabhupada calls this an ‘open secret’ and therefore not a secret. Just because the word secret occurs there it need not necessarily support secrecy.

 

In the final analysis:

 

Krsna turned the Vedic religious secrecy thing on its head in 18.66. He suggested all regardless of caster, gender etc can reach the final goal through bhakti and not dharma. Then Caitanya made sure it had a workable forum VIZ: Sir Krishna Sankirtana and made it available to “sarva-atman” – “every living entity” not just regardless of caste colour, creed and/or gender but regardless of species and corporality as well

 

He said “sarva-atman” “every living entity” And that means 'every living entity" By dint of their very existence "every living' entity has qualified.

 

"sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam"

 

 

ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha--davagni-nirvapanam

sreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam

anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamrtasvadanam

sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 02-10-2002).]

[valaya]

Dear Suryaz, Don't know why you used my hasty summary in your post directed to jndas, but it should not be taken as anything other than my own quick personal overview. Others probably have their unique ideas of what transpired.

 

I just found the twists and turns, along with the emotional component, somewhat interesting. The whole male-female thing makes me think about Radha and Krsna! I only wish I could discuss such topics without coming across as either completely nuts or highly offensive, though I'm most probably both...

 

What can we do? Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu loves and accepts us, too! Lord Krsna in Bhagavad-gita is one thing, however Krsna as Lord Caitanya ablaze with the mahabhava of Radhika, is quite another. It's like comparing conventional weaponry to nuclear! Conventional thinking and conventional approaches in general have become obsolete! It will take some time, but after all He appeared only 500 years ago. We've only just begun transforming the entire planet like never before! Somehow or other everything and everyone are working together under Their Divine Will and Absolute control, whether we realize it now or not. Causeless mercy has swept all of us up and many more miracles are yet to come. See you there, prabhu!

 

valaya

 

------------------

Radhe Radhe always Radhe!

 

amanpeter@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by valaya (edited 02-10-2002).]

[Avinash]

Well, I'm merely a member of the male species, so can only keep trying to understand the far more complex and highly subtle communication of females.

 

I, personally, do not find the communication of females as complex or subtle. I can talk to them and understand them quite well.

[valaya]

Originally posted by Avinash:

Well, I'm merely a member of the male species, so can only keep trying to understand the far more complex and highly subtle communication of females.

 

I, personally, do not find the communication of females as complex or subtle. I can talk to them and understand them quite well.

May I assume that my quoted post above is also something you think you've understood? I get the feeling that there are many other things you think you understand , as well. Maybe you could share with us a few of the things you don't understand, particularly those you believe I might understand more than you. Or are there any?

 

valaya

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Even saintly people such as Vidura maintain secrets for the benefit of others:

 

nanv apriyam durvisaham

nrinam svayam upasthitam

navedayat sakaruno

duhkhitan drashtum akshamah

 

"Compassionate Mahatma Vidura could not stand to see the Pandavas distressed at any time. Therefore he did not disclose this unpalatable and unbearable incident because calamities come of their own accord."

 

Srila Prabhupada's purport:

According to Niti-sastra (civic laws) one should not speak an unpalatable truth to cause distress to others. Distress comes upon us in its own way by the laws of nature, so one should not aggravate it by propaganda. For a compassionate soul like Vidura, especially in his dealings with the beloved Pandavas, it was almost impossible to disclose an unpalatable piece of news like the annihilation of the Yadu dynasty. Therefore he purposely refrained from it.

 

[Avinash]

particularly those you believe I might understand more than you. Or are there any?

 

No, there are none.

 

[valaya]

Originally posted by Avinash:

particularly those you believe I might understand more than you. Or are there any?

 

No, there are none.

Not exactly unexpected...

 

 

[Avinash]

Just a thought.

 

If Krsna is the only male, then should Radha not be the only female?

[Tarun]

Administrator posted 02-11-2002

---------------

Even saintly people such as Vidura maintain secrets for the benefit of others:

nanv apriyam durvisaham

nrinam svayam upasthitam

navedayat sakaruno

duhkhitan drashtum akshamah

 

"Compassionate Mahatma Vidura could not stand to see the Pandavas distressed at any time. Therefore he did not disclose this unpalatable and unbearable incident because calamities come of their own accord."

 

Srila Prabhupada's purport:

According to Niti-sastra (civic laws) one should not speak an unpalatable truth to cause distress to others. Distress comes upon us in its own way by the laws of nature, so one should not aggravate it by propaganda. For a compassionate soul like Vidura, especially in his dealings with the beloved Pandavas, it was almost impossible to disclose an unpalatable piece of news like the annihilation of the Yadu dynasty. Therefore he purposely refrained from it.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Vidura (YamarAj) preferred to keep Yadu dynasty annihilation secret.

After it happened. After the fact

KuntI-devI's just the opposite.

She's keeping secret info that would save the Kuru dynasty.

Prevention. PREVENTION.

An ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure.

SUrya NArAyaN ki jaya! PANDava-KarNa ki jaya!

If Yudhisthir could understand this, why not you?

If my uninitiated Philippino next door neighbor can understand this, why not you?

Ergo, in Kaliyuga, brAhmaNa means cotton string, that's all.

And VaiSNava means "Haribol, got some weed?"

[Tarun]

Suryaz quoted & asked:

Yudhisthir, KuntidevI & all other MahAbharat characters:

They are God's eternal personal associates.

As they come in slight contact with material energy..

--

it becomes chintamani?

* * * * * * * * *

Suryazji: in Easy Journey, PrabhupAd quotes a Russian scientist.

He's trying to explain anti-matter.

Therein this scientist opines:

"When matter & spirit collide, there's mutual destruction."

PrabupAd corrects him by stating:

"When matter & spirit collide, matter disintegrates.

Spirit remains indestructible."

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Ultimately Krishna wanted the battle to take place, and it could not have happened without Karna on the side of Duryodhana. Everything was done to bring about this battle, for example Bhishma remaining silent when Draupadi was disgraced, etc.

 

It could have been stopped at any time. But Lord Krishna's promise to Bhumi Devi was that He would remove the heavy burden of the kings from the face of the earth.