The Future

[leyh]

Last week when I attended a program graced by His Holiness Bhanu Maharaja,a question was raised by a devotee:"If Krsna knows everything in the past,present and future,what about free will?" (I'm paraphrasing as I can't recall the exact words) In other words,if the future is already something that can be known by Krsna does it follow that the future is already somehow determined?

 

Maybe our future could take the form of an infinite variety of circumstances,and Krsna because He is infinite,knows all these variety of circumstances.It's just like those interactive games where there are a variety of options which could lead to different outcomes and it is up to the player to decide which option to take.

 

I got this idea from reading Conversations with God By Neale Donald Walsch.

 

Any comments?

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 02-11-2002).]

[bhaktashab]

Yeah that sounds far out.

p.s. What answer did Bhanu Maharaja give?

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shab.

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktashab (edited 02-11-2002).]

[xvi000]

Let's play an interactive game.

 

Con.: o = The Box;

Var.: d = Collective Brain Wave;

Var.: ? = The Future !;

Location: In 4D space of +/- x, +/- y , +/- z , & +/- t

Algebraic Formula: o + d = ? (0 < d < o)

[Shashi]

Originally posted by xvi000:

Let's play an interactive game.

 

Con.: o = The Box;

Var.: d = Collective Brain Wave;

Var.: ? = The Future !;

Location: In 4D space of +/- x, +/- y , +/- z , & +/- t

Algebraic Formula: o + d = ? (0 < d < o)

please explan some more Prabhooji

 

 

[leyh]

Originally posted by bhaktashab:

Yeah that sounds far out.

p.s. What answer did Bhanu Maharaja give?

bhaktashab:

 

I can't really recall his answer,except that he did mention something about the akashic records,which are apparently a sort of bank that records everything that has happened,is happening and will happen in the future.

 

 

[Gauracandra]

Here is a question from Christianity as to whether God knows the future?

 

Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge. As such they learn of nudity, and hide their shame. When God comes looking for them, He is calling out "Where are you?", later they reveal themselves and he asks "Why are you covering yourselves?" They say they ate from the tree of knowledge and God says "Who told you to do this?" To which they reply "The snake told us to".

 

So why did God ask these questions if He knew the answer?

[Avinash]

May be that God had pre-determined that He would ask those questions.

[gHari]

God could have asked the questions for their benefit, not His; since all His questions are rhetorical, by definition.

[leyh]

We're all speculating,and we can't know for sure.When I evetually get to Vrindavana Goloka,I intend to ask one of the nitya-siddhas there or maybe, if I can get a moment with Him,the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

"So my Lord,if you already know the future,then what about free will?"

[bhaktashab]

Originally posted by leyh:

"So my Lord,if you already know the future,then what about free will?"

My understanding is that Krishna knows the past, present and future but for the purpose of lila he inconceivably 'forgets'.

 

------------------

shab.

[gHari]

Perhaps we are underestimating Krsna, thinking Him like us, only greater.

 

When asked if Krsna could make a rock so heavy that He couldn't lift it, Prabhupada said that yes, He would make a rock He couldn't lift - and then He would lift it.

 

Hence, why not free will, and still omniscience? If I have a time machine and see Leyh is in the Library at 8PM on March 1, then Leyh can exhibit all sorts of free will between now and then, and even in his choice to stay an extra hour at the Library that night. But he will be there, because I've seen the future. And that's just what Leyh does then, of his own sweet free will.

[Avinash]

And that's just what Leyh does then, of his own sweet free will.

 

In the scenario you have given, Leyh thinks that he is in library because of his free will. But, in reality, he had to be there. If he desires to be in library, then he had to have that desire.

[Gauracandra]

Just so you know, I had asked that question (about why God who is all knowing was asking Adam these questions) to an orthodox Jewish friend of mine. He gave what I think was a very good answer. Essentially, God is God the Father. And he was treating Adam like a father treats a son who has done something wrong.

 

For instance, when a child spills some milk, a father might ask "How did this milk get spilled?", "Did you spill this milk?", etc.... the father already knows the child has done something wrong. But by approaching it in this manner the father gives the child a chance to redeem themselves, admit guilt, and thereby accept responsibility for the situation.

 

Gauracandra

[Avinash]

Let me tackle a very fundamental question. Is it a must for God to know future in order to be called as omniscient? I don't think so. I am not trying to say that God does not know future. May be He does or may be He does not; I have no idea. What I am saying is that He can be considered as omniscient even if He does not know future. To understand how this is so, consider a person who has got very good knowledge of different kinds of animals. Now, I want to prove that his knowledge is not as good as is claimed. I ask him to tell me the color of donkey's horns. Definitely he can not answer. Have I really proved that his knowldge is bad? No. He can not answer simply because donkeys do not have horns. If we ask him the color of a cow's horns and he can not answer, then I can say that he does not have good knowldge, because cows have horns. Similarly, if God does not know future, then we can call Him not omniscient only if future is really pre-determined. If future is not pre-determined and then God does not know future, it does not mean that He does not know future. Of course, being omnipotent should allow Him to make the future pre-determined. But, just because, He is capable of doing something, does not mean that He must do it.

[Avinash]

Often a question is asked, "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can not lift?". If you say "yes", then the questioner will say, "Look, God can not lift the stone, so He is not omnipotent. If you answer "no", then he will say, "Look, He can not create such kind of stone, so He is not omnipotent."

 

May be that God can create such such kind of stone and still be called as omnipotent in some manner that I can not think of. But, I am going to prove in this post that He can be called as omnipotent even if He can not create such a stone.

 

Consider a person who is a great mathematician. He is asked to draw a triangle whose sides have lengths 1 cm, 1 cm, and 3 cm. He can not do it. But it does not mean that he does not have good knowledge of Geometry. He can not do because the length of any side of a triangle can not be more than the sum of the lengths of its other two sides. If that person is asked to do something that is possible in theory but is very difficult to do in practice, and he can not do it, then we can say that we have thought of some problem that he can not solve. But, if it is not possible in theory itself, it just not indicate anything about his knowledge. In the same manner, if God can not create a rock that He can not lift, then we can not say that He is not omipotent. Just as we can not call God as not omipotent if He can not prove that 2 > 3.

[gHari]

Avinash, you seem to not accept free will. Is that only true for conditioned souls?

[gHari]

FREE WILL?

 

From a letter from guru A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami:

Regarding free will and pre-destination, yes, materially everything is decided. Spiritually you can make advancement despite all material destiny. Materially you cannot change things as they are but spiritually it is possible.

 

From conversations with guru A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami:

Swedish man (3): Is there free will?

PrabhupAda: Yes, yes. Just like you are sitting here. If you don't like, you can go away. That's your free will. There is free will. Because we are part and parcel of God, God is completely free to do anything. And because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we have got minute quantity of freedom. Just like a drop of ocean water, it is also salty, but the quantity of salt in that drop is not equal to the salt in the ocean. Similarly, you have got a little quantity of freedom, but not as freedom as God has got. That is not possible. You are subordinate. Your freedom is subordinate to God's freedom. Therefore if you misuse your freedom, then you become punishable. The government gives you freedom, but if you misuse your freedom, if you violate the laws, then you are criminal. Yes?

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Devotee: SrIla PrabhupAda? Why God gave to man free will if He knew the man would fall down in the material world?

PrabhupAda: If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must be, must have free will. But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone. That is not life.

=======

PrabhupAda: Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will.

HayagrIva: A man may know better but still act wrongly.

PrabhupAda: Yes.

HayagrIva: Yes.

PrabhupAda: But that is free will. He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing--he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison--everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will.

HayagrIva: In a sense he says that when one knows God he knows everything else, because...

PrabhupAda: Yes. If he knows God and follows the instruction of God then he is right, and as soon as he goes against the instruction of God, then he is wrong. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gItA: "Now I have given you all instruction. It is up to you to accept or reject." Yathecchasi tathA kuru. That is free will. So now it depends on me whether I shall act according to the instruction of God or I shall act according to my whims, according to my sensual inclinations.

=======

PrabhupAda: Yes. You have got free will, but must utilize it properly. That is free will. Free will means to utilize it properly. That is free will.

SvarUpa DAmodara: So people... Sometimes KRSNa interferes in the free will?

PrabhupAda: Ah?

SvarUpa DAmodara: Our free will.

PrabhupAda: Yes.

SvarUpa DAmodara: God interferes.

PrabhupAda: Yes. That is KRSNa's special favor. Because by your free will you are going to hell. If KRSNa interferes, that is KRSNa's special favor. Just like a child is going to touch fire by free will, and father, "Eh, don't do it." That is his special favor.

=======

PrajApati: KRSNa has given us free will to choose or reject the godly life. Should the government take away that free will of whether they choose to...

PrabhupAda: No, that free will is not to be given. It is already there. Rather, KRSNa says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: "I am now talking to you the most confidential words." Sarva-guhyatamam. "You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy." There is also free will. When you come to the KRSNa platform you serve KRSNa with free will, not that you become a stone. There is free will. Just like our devotees they are dressing KRSNa nicely, is there no free will? They are cooking for KRSNa. Is there no free will? The free will is there. The MAyAvAdI philosopher says, the Buddha philosopher says, that "Stop this free will, and then you become happy." But our proposition is not to stop free will but purify free will. Purify. Not stop these eyes. Just if it is suffering from cataract, cure that cataract. Keep the eyes. And their proposition, "Get out these eyes and throw it. Then there will be no more seeing what is right and wrong." That is their proposition. NirvizeSa-vAdI. NirvizeSa means no speciality, no varieties. That is nirvizeSa. And zUnya, zero. When it is zero, then there is no question of right and wrong. So our philosophy is not that. There is no zero, and there is no varieties. We don't say. There is, but it's purified varieties. Tat-paratvena nirmalam. Nirmalam means purified. So our process is to purify everything. We don't want to stop. That is not our proposition. They cannot find out any solution. Therefore they want to make stop: "Stop this business." Suppose a business is not going very nicely. It is going at loss. Somebody says, "Close it." But one experienced man comes: "Why should you close? All right, I shall do it properly. You'll get profit." So who is better? One, by disappointment, he says, "Close this business. There is no profit." And another man says, "No, don't close it. We shall make you profit. We shall show you profit. Just manage it properly." This is our proposition. We don't say that "Stop all these material activities." No. Just do it properly so that you get real profit and real benefit. That is our program. We don't want to make it zero, no. Why shall I make it zero? [break] ...can be taken just like there is business, but the workers, the assistants, they have no idea who is the proprietor. So everyone is doing something, taking pocket, something this, take pocket, his pocket, so how the business will go on nicely? That is being done. Everyone, these rascals, they have no idea who is the proprietor of this world. So they are doing in their nonsensical way. Therefore there is confusion. The business is not profitable. But if they accept, "No, the real proprietor is such and such gentleman, so he wants to do us like this," then the business will be profitable. Everyone is thinking that he is proprietor, so how this business will profit? This is the position. Everyone is thinking that he is the proprietor. He forgets that he is worker. He is not proprietor. That is the mistake. Therefore the business is mismanaged, and there is no profit, simply chaos. That is the position. [break] ...says in the Bhagavad-gItA,

 

bhoktAraM yajJa-tapasAM

sarva-loka-mahezvaram

suhRdaM sarva-bhUtAnAM

jJAtvA mAM zAntim Rcchati

[bhagavad-gita 5.29]

 

"If you want to stop this chaotic condition, then accept Me that I am the enjoyer and proprietor of this whole world, and I am your real friend. Let the business be done on My account, you take your right salaries, you be happy, and there will be no chaotic condition." But here the position is that everyone is thinking proprietor, and as far as possible, he is taking all the money, and other is starving. He is not getting his salary even. So he also, because he is weak, he cannot steal. The stronger, he is stealing. There is fight. Just like this chaotic condition of the petrol. The Arabians thinking that "I am the proprietor. Why shall I give to the Americans?" Thing is there, but it is chaotic only because they do not accept the proprietor is God. That is the defect. How you can give freedom for stealing? Stealing freedom means punishment awaiting you. If I give you freedom--"Yes, whatever you like, you can go on stealing"--that means next stage is your punishment. That is going on.

=======

Jayadharma: Does fortune mean it's the mercy of KRSNa?

PrabhupAda: KRSNa's mercy is always there. It is your misuse of free will. You are given the opportunity--that is fortune. But you do not accept the fortune. That is your misfortune. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritAmRita. Lord Caitanya said, ei rUpe brahmANDa bhramite kona bhAgyavAn jIva [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Kono--some fortunate man can accept it. Because mostly they are unfortunate. Just see, throughout the whole of Europe and America we are making propaganda. How many students have come? A very insignificant number, although they have come. They are fortunate.

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Devotee (4): So he admits he's conditioned, but still, there's no free will. He says, "Yeah, so I'm in the prison. I'm imprisoned. I'm conditioned."

PrabhupAda: No, no, no. Free will... Just like a man commits theft by his free will. But when he is put into jail, then no more free will. He has to act according to the jail superintendent. But his beginning of jail life is free will. Nobody asked him that "You go to jail." But why he has come? He knows also that "When I am put into jail, I will lose all my freedom." He knows that. Still, he comes. Why does he come? He knows that. That is called ajJAna. MUDha. That is called mUDha. He knows; still, he does.

=======

PrabhupAda: First of all try to understand. It is... The free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, KRSNa says, niyataM kuru karma tvaM karma jyAyo hy akarmaNaH: "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So the prescribed duty is cAtur-varNyaM mayA sRSTaM guNa-karma-vibhAgazaH [bg. 4.13]. According to guNa and karma, there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brAhmaNa, you do the brAhmaNa's work. If you are a kSatriya, you do the kSatriya's... NiyataM kuru karma. What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is KRSNa's in... But if you are intelligent, then KRSNa says, sarva-dharmAn parityajya mAm ekam [bg. 18.66]. But you are foolish; then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender to Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma. KRSNa is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection. But he says, niyataM kuru karma. Find out this verse.

niyataM kuru karma tvaM

karma jyAyo hy akarmaNaH

zarIra-yAtrApi ca te

na prasiddhyed akarmaNaH

Devotee (3): Should I read the translation?

PrabhupAda: Yes.

Devotee (3): "Perform your prescribed duties, for action is better than inaction."

PrabhupAda: But if you have no prescribed duties, then you are animal. Just like monkey. What is his duty? He is jumping simply and creating havoc. Monkey is very busy. Wherever he'll sit down, he'll "Gat, gat, gat, gat," like this. That's all. Very busy. But what is the meaning of his business? Simply creating disturbance Therefore it is said, niyataM kuru karma tvam: "Act on your prescribed duties." Don't act like a monkey. That is better. What is that?

Devotee (3): "For action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work."

PrabhupAda: Then? Purport?

Devotee (3): Purport. "There are many pseudo-meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord KRSNa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set for kSatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kSatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart..."

PrabhupAda: You are following? Go on.

Devotee (3): "...and free him from material contamination. So-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so, through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others."

PrabhupAda: So Bhagavad-gItA is giving you gradual process to the highest point and highest point is to surrender. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. Sarva-guhyatamam. GuhyAd guhyataram. Find out this verse, eighteenth chapter. He has given the instruction of karma, yoga, jJAna, everything, but the most confidential instruction is this.

Devotee (3):

sarva-guhyatamaM bhUyaH

zRNu me paramaM vacaH

iSTo 'si me dRDham iti

tato vakSyAmi te hitam

Translation: "Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit."

PrabhupAda: Is there any purport?

Devotee (3): "The Lord has given Arjuna confidential knowledge of the Supersoul within everyone's heart, and now he is giving the most confidential part of this knowledge: just surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. At the end of the Ninth Chapter he has said, ‘Just always think of Me.' The same instruction is repeated here to stress the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad-gItA. This essence is not understood by a common man, but by one who is actually very dear to KRSNa, a pure devotee of KRSNa. This is the most important instruction in all Vedic literature. What KRSNa is saying in this connection is the most essential part of knowledge, and it should be carried out not only by Arjuna but by all living entities."

PrabhupAda: Guhyatamam, most confidential. This is not for all, but for the advanced person and who is in confidence of KRSNa, He says, iSTo 'si me? What is that next? ISTo 'si?

Devotee (3): ISTo 'si me dRDham iti.

PrabhupAda: Eh?

Devotee (3): ISTo 'si me dRDham iti tato vakSyAmi.

PrabhupAda: DRDham?

Devotee (3): DRDham.

PrabhupAda: No. What is the spelling?

Devotee (3): DRDham.

PrabhupAda: No, no, the word, separate word? ISTo 'si?

Devotee (3): D-r-d-h-a-m.

PrabhupAda: Hitam.

Devotee (3): DRDham iti tato vakSyAmi te hitam.

PrabhupAda: Te hitam. So it is not for all. One who is in confidence of KRSNa, a pure devotee, for him, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man--"You do your prescribed duty." But they have no prescribed duty even. The people of this age, they are so fallen, they have no prescribed duty. They are simply engaged like animals--eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. That's all. Animal is engaged like that, eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. So we are being educated only like animals. We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brAhmaNa, kSatriya, vaizya, utmost, zUdra, like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping, and sex, and defense. Therefore zAstra says, nAyaM deho deha-bhAjAM nRloke kaSTAn kAmAn arhate viD-bhujAM ye [sB 5.5.1]. You should not live the life of a hog, viD-bhujAm. ViD-bhujAm means the stool eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong then, "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataM kuru karma tvam. You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cAtur-varNyaM mayA sRSTaM guNa-karma-vibhAgazaH [bg. 4.13], and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brAhmaNa, then zamo damas titikSA Arjavam, jJAnaM vijJAnam AstikyaM brahma-karma svabhAva-jam. If you want to be kSatriya, tejaH... What is that? TejaH zauryaM yujyaM yuddhe cApy apalAyanam Izvara-bhAvaz ca kSAtraM karma svabhAva-jam. If you want to be a vaizya, kRSi-go-rakSya-vANijyaM vaizya-karma svabhAva-jam [bg. 18.44]. And if you want to remain a zUdra, paricaryAtmakaM karma zUdra-karma svabhAva-jam. And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself, either as a brAhmaNa or as a kSatriya or a vaizya, by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty. That is niyataM karma tvam. Otherwise, jumping like monkeys, that is not karma. That is monkey's dance. It has no value. Wasting time. You should not waste time, a single moment. Therefore KRSNa says, niyataM kuru karma tvam. So make that. Don't waste your time. That's all right. And she is child. What can be done? You cannot...

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 10.24.15-16:

kim indreNeha bhUtAnAM

sva-sva-karmAnuvartinAm

anIzenAnyathA kartuM

svabhAva-vihitaM nRNAm

 

kim--what; indreNa--with Indra; iha--here; bhUtAnAm--for living entities; sva-sva--each their own; karma--of fruitive action; anuvartinAm--who are experiencing the consequences; anIzena--(Indra) who is incapable; anyathA--otherwise; kartum--to make; svabhAva--by their conditioned natures; vihitam--that which is ordained; nRNAm--for men.

 

Living beings in this world are forced to experience the consequences of their own particular previous work. Since Lord Indra cannot in any way change the destiny of human beings, which is born of their own nature, why should people worship him?

 

PURPORT

Lord KRSNa's argument here is not a negation of free will. If one accepts the existence of karma as a system of laws awarding reactions for our present activities, then we ourselves, according to our nature, will decide our future. Our happiness and distress in this life have already been adjudicated and fixed according to our previous activities, and not even the demigods can change that. They must award us the prosperity or poverty, sickness or health, happiness or distress due us by our previous work. However, we still retain the freedom to select a pious or impious mode of activity in this life, and the choice we make will determine our future suffering and enjoyment.

 

For example, if I was pious in my last life, in this life the demigods may award me great material wealth. But I am free to spend my riches for good or for bad purposes, and my choice will determine my future life. Thus, although no one can change the karmic results due him in this life, everyone still retains his free will, by which he determines what his future situation will be. Lord KRSNa's argument here is quite interesting; however, it neglects the overriding consideration that we are all eternal servants of God and must satisfy Him by all that we do.

 

svabhAva-tantro hi janaH

svabhAvam anuvartate

svabhAva-stham idaM sarvaM

sa-devAsura-mAnuSam

 

svabhAva--of his conditioned nature; tantraH--under the control; hi--indeed; janaH--a person; svabhAvam--his nature; anuvartate--he follows; svabhAva-stham--based on conditioned propensities; idam--this world; sarvam--entire; sa--together with; deva--the demigods; asura--the demons; mAnuSam--and humankind.

 

Every individual is under the control of his own conditioned nature, and thus he must follow that nature. This entire universe, with all its demigods, demons and human beings, is based on the conditioned nature of the living entities.

 

PURPORT

Lord KRSNa here elaborates upon the argument given in the previous verse. Since everything depends on svabhAva, or one's conditioned nature, why bother worshiping God or the demigods? This argument would be sublime if svabhAva, or conditioned nature, were all-powerful. But unfortunately it is not. There is a supreme controller and we must worship Him, as Lord KRSNa will emphatically reveal in this chapter of the SrImad-BhAgavatam. For now, however, He is content to tease His relatives.

 

[Gauracandra]

Is knowledge of the future really preventing the notion of freewill? I'm just thinking in simple terms for the moment. Suppose we have two olympic athletes. One is a puny, scrawny fellow, the other a well toned, athlete. Now these guys are going to do downhill skiing. I "know" that the really athletic one is going to win the race. I can look at all the variables and determine that he will win. Thus I knw the future (maybe not perfectly, but certainly to an extent). But in no way does my knowledge prevent these individuals free will from being exercised (no pun intended). Now God sees all sorts of variables, and interactions. He can sit back and know what will happen, but does that mean that people didn't have a freewill in those actions? I don't think so. This is a simple example, and maybe I'm missing a logical piece to it. I'm not sure.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

vedaham samatitani

vartamanani carjuna

bhavisyani ca bhutani

mam tu veda na kascana

 

"O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows."

 

[gHari]

We would have to weigh the variables, track conditions, fairness of the French judges, etc.

 

However, Krsna, from His unique position beyond time and space, has access to all space and all time. It's not that He divines (pardon the pun) the future; He can literally see it.

 

For us, it would be like having a time machine. Our excellent adventure would take us to 8PM on March 1st, 2002. We go to the library and find Leyh studying. We find him there because, in the future, that is what he will be doing at that time.

 

Or consider the present: had you used the time machine a week ago to arrive at this moment at my place, you would find me typing this mind-boggling message.

 

It is clear that someone with a time machine who knows that I will be typing this message now, has no affect on the fact that this is precisely what I am doing. Our seeing Leyh at the library on March 1st is caused by Leyh going to the library to study for his March 2nd exam; not that our time travel has caused him to go to the library like some sort of zombie.

 

That is, the future causes/affects our perception of the future; not the other way around, that our perception of the future causes/affects the future.<font color="#f7f7f7">

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 02-14-2002).]

[Avinash]

For us, it would be like having a time machine. Our excellent adventure would take us to 8PM on March 1st, 2002. We go to the library and find Leyh studying. We find him there because, in the future, that is what he will be doing at that time.

 

Or consider the present: had you used the time machine a week ago to arrive at this moment at my place, you would find me typing this mind-boggling message.

 

A time machine that can go to future is possible only if the future is pre-determined. Otherwise, it is impossible to develop a time machine. So, in your argument, you have made implicit assumption that future is pre-determined. But, is it?

 

[gHari]

Okay, forget the time machine. They don't really exist. It was only a vehicle to try to get us to see Krsna's special position, and to forget our limited perception of time as a linear causal plane string of events; to actually consider the implications of Krsna's ability to know the future; to stop seeing Him as just a superhuman, bound by our same limitations.

 

Most can accept that Krsna is everywhere. Is it difficult to equally conceive that He is also everywhen? For Him, past, present and future exist simultaneously. Past, present and future are terms only meaningful in the material world. He is beyond space and time, giving Him access to all space and all time simultaneously; placing Him everywhere all the time, simultaneously; while still remaining in His Origin Being.

 

The earlier Gita quote showed that He knows the future. For Him, the future exists now. The past exists now.

[Avinash]

The earlier Gita quote showed that He knows the future. For Him, the future exists now. The past exists now.

 

If this is true, then everything is pre-determined. So, if a person does something, this means that he had to do it. He may think that he is doing it because he wants to do it. But, in reality, he had to want to do that. If Krsna knows all that is going to happen in future and if His knowledge can not be wrong, there is no free will even though we may think that we have free will.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

In absolute reality there is no such thing as three features of time. The problem with this discussion is that we are trying to filter God through the limits of three aspects of time. If there was no past and if there is no future, then the question ceases to exist.

 

In other words, "what if" time is a subjective experience of reality by a conditioned soul.

 

 

[leyh]

Thank you all,Prabhus for your posts on the subject of the future.This is one thread that I will have to take more than just a few scrolls to properly digest.

 

I read in one of the purports of Narada Bhakti Sutras by His Holiness Satsvarupa dasa Goswami that 'Sometimes when Prabhupada was pressed with inquires about the spiritual world, he would reply,"You will know when you get there."'(Purport to Narada Bhakti Sutras Sutra 31-32)

 

Surely,the same can be said about all our queries about the future.We will know 100% when we get to the spiritual world.

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 02-14-2002).]