The Future

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

In the Bhagavatam's description of creation, the time factor only influences material existence from the point of the Mahat-tattva (i.e. after the agitation of the pradhana). Vishnu, who exists beyond material influence has no limiting connection to this three fold illusory time.

 

[Gauracandra]

Here is something I just started to think about with regard to the future, and it is quite an optimistic view. Basically there is no beginning and no ending. Thus the future extends indefinitely. If that is the case, then one day every one of us will return Back Home, Back to Godhead. Even if it takes trillions upon trillions of years, the future is ahead of us, and one day we'll all return to our spiritual home.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

And since time only manifests at the point of material creation, when we return there we would never have been gone.

 

[xvi000]

Let's play an interactive game.

Con.: o = The Box;

Var.: d = Collective Brain Wave;

Var.: ? = The Future !;

Location: In 4D space of +/- x, +/- y , +/- z , & +/- t

Algebraic Formula: o + d = ? (0 < d < o)

The Algebraic Formula looks static. Let me show you the other face of it --

Function Formula: ? = f(d) = o + d (0 < d < o)

It looks dynamic.

 

Often a question is asked, "Can God make a rock so heavy that He can not lift?". If you say "yes", then the questioner will say, "Look, God can not lift the stone, so He is not omnipotent. If you answer "no", then he will say, "Look, He can not create such kind of stone, so He is not omnipotent."

If I reply "yes/no", what will you conclude? I'm not kidding now.

 

Consider a person who is a great mathematician. He is asked to draw a triangle whose sides have lengths 1 cm, 1 cm, and 3 cm. He can not do it. But it does not mean that he does not have good knowledge of Geometry. He can not do because the length of any side of a triangle can not be more than the sum of the lengths of its other two sides.

Who did tell you "He can not do because the length of any side of a triangle can not be more than the sum of the lengths of its other two sides. ", God? Your geometric teacher told it as an axiom. God is ever higher than an axiom.

 

Suppose we have two olympic athletes. One is a puny, scrawny fellow, the other a well toned, athlete.

I know one of this type of races -- Mbh. war, in which KriSNa took the reins of its progress for his mission because incarnated asuras had expanded their armies in all finesses.

 

If this is true, then everything is pre-determined. So, if a person does something, this means that he had to do it. He may think that he is doing it because he wants to do it. But, in reality, he had to want to do that.

Batman said "Not because I have to be. Because I choose to be." You have free will like God. God is/isn't omniscient. -- my personal views.

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Thus the future extends indefinitely.

 

Time is not a line. It's nothing. Infinite states coexist there. But you brain can accept one in a time.

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when we return there we would never have been gone.

 

You can go nowhere for you are a soul.

 

 

[This message has been edited by xvi000 (edited 02-15-2002).]

[Avinash]

Avinash, you seem to not accept free will. Is that only true for conditioned souls?

 

If God knows everything about future, then free will is impossible. Or, in other words, if free will exists, then God does not know everything about future.

 

Swedish man (3): Is there free will?

PrabhupAda: Yes, yes. Just like you are sitting here. If you don't like, you can go away. That's your free will.

 

But if God already knew that the swedish man would be sitting there, then that man had to be sitting there. So, where is free will?

 

But in no way does my knowledge prevent these individuals free will from being exercised (no pun intended).

 

Can you point out a single thing that the athletes are free to do or not to do?

 

If there was no past and if there is no future, then the question ceases to exist.

 

Krsna's statement that He knows all that is going to happen in future makes sense only if believe that past and future really exist.

 

If I reply "yes/no", what will you conclude? I'm not kidding now.

 

Then, I will ask you to elaborate what you mean by "yes/no".

 

Who did tell you "He can not do because the length of any side of a triangle can not be more than the sum of the lengths of its other two sides. ", God? Your geometric teacher told it as an axiom. God is ever higher than an axiom.

 

Please read whole of my post. I am trying to say that not being able to do something is not the proof of not being omnipotent. The example I gave is just an example. Of course, in non-Euclidian space, it is possible to construct such a triangle. (Though I did not specify, I had assumed Euclidian space). Okay, forget this example. But, it is possible that there is some problem that is unsolvable. Then no one, not even God can do it (otherwise why would we call it unsolvable?). But, does it mean that God should not be called as omnisicent? No, it does not mean that. Only if the solution exists, then we can expect God to know the answer. If the solution does not exist and God can not give the solution, it does not mean that He is not omniscient. As I have already written before and I repeat, "Even if God is not able to create a rock so heavy that He can not lift, then also He can be considered as omnipotent."

 

Or, do you think that it is impossible for a question to be insolvable?

 

God is/isn't omniscient.

 

Please elaborate what you mean by "is/isn't".

[Gauracandra]

But in no way does my knowledge prevent these individuals free will from being exercised (no pun intended).

Can you point out a single thing that the athletes are free to do or not to do?

Under the scenario I set forth, there are all sorts of possibilities. I know the athletic skiier will win, but he can turn left, right, he can jump, go straight, or zig zag back and forth etc....

 

So even though I "know" he will win, he has the choice to do what he wants.

[Avinash]

I know the athletic skiier will win, but he can turn left, right, he can jump, go straight, or zig zag back and forth etc....

 

Suppose that God knows the skiier will turn left. Then, he WILL turn left. If God knows that he will not turn left, then he WILL NOT. The example you have given is valid only if God knows some things about future, but not everything. If He knows everything, then everything is pre-determined, including the skiier's turning or not turning left.

[gHari]

Are we saying that God cannot see the future if man is allowed free will?

 

Are we saying that God cannot create the material cosmos from nothing? He cannot create time and space from nothing? He is afterall, limited by the natural laws we observe in our world? God must see the causal plane sequentially as we do. Do the stories in the Vedas that present the entire future of the cosmos, demand that free will is non-existent? Yet, why would Krsna preach the Gita if no one has the choice to remember Him or not remember Him?

 

I conclude that Sri Krsna is not a simple fellow like I am. I must accept His inconceivable potencies as He describes Them, verbatim.

 

If we read this thread properly, we have learned that free will means surrendering to Krsna, otherwise we are forced to act in fortune or folly in accordance with the reactions of our previously accumulated karma. That is, in truth, the conditioned soul acting for his own amusement has no free will, although that illusion is a major feature of the false ego trap, affording us the fantasy of being masters of all that we survey.

[Avinash]

Are we saying that God cannot see the future if man is allowed free will?

 

Man can have free will if God can see some part of future but not everything. If God can see everything in future, then man has no free will.

As I have mentioned a few times in this thread, it is not necessary for God to know everything about future, if He is omniscient. In other words, He is omniscient even if some events of future are unknown to Him.

 

Are we saying that God cannot create the material cosmos from nothing? He cannot create time and space from nothing?

 

He can.

 

He is afterall, limited by the natural laws we observe in our world?

 

He is not limited by these laws.

 

God must see the causal plane sequentially as we do?

 

He need not.

 

Do the stories in the Vedas that present the entire future of the cosmos, demand that free will is non-existent?

 

Do the stories in the Vedas really present the ENTIRE future of the cosmos? If they do and the presentation is correct, then free will is non existent.

 

Yet, why would Krsna preach the Gita if no one has the choice to remember Him or not remember Him?

 

If Krsna has pre-determined everything, then He must have pre-determined that He would preach Gita.

 

I conclude that Sri Krsna is not a simple fellow like I am.

 

Agreed.

 

I must accept His inconceivable potencies as He describes Them, verbatim.

 

Agreed.

 

If we read this thread properly, we have learned that free will means surrendering to Krsna, otherwise we are forced to act in fortune or folly in accordance with the reactions of our previously accumulated karma.

 

Surrendering to Krsna may be considered as desirable, but I don't see it as the meaning of free will. Also, if everything is pre-determined, then our previous karmas were also pre-determined.

 

That is, in truth, the conditioned soul acting for his own amusement has no free will, although that illusion is a major feature of the false ego trap, affording us the fantasy of being masters of all that we survey.

 

If a conditioned soul is acting for its own amusement, then it does not mean that it has no free will. Though, you may say that it is not utilising its free will properly.

[gHari]

Avinash,

 

You never did address the real issue which was defined at least twice: past, present and future are only aspects of time in the material world. Krsna creates time; then why can He not do so in a way that allows Him to view it all at once? He can view all space at once; indeed existing in every atom.

 

It seems to me that you are limiting Krsna for no reason; except for rules that apply only to our tiny world encased in time and space, but not to Krsna. From inside the material world we conclude that "Nothing comes from nothing", "Matter is neither created nor destroyed". From outside the world, it looks entirely different.

 

You accept that Krsna creates space and time from nothing, yet see it as inconceivable that He can see all of time at once. I find it no greater a trick for such a master magician.

 

gHari

[gHari]

Krsna Book, Srimad Bhagavatam Tenth Canto

The NAgapatnIs continued, "We therefore offer our respectful obeisances unto You, our dear Lord, because You are the Supreme Person, who are living as the Supersoul within every living entity; although You are transcendental to the cosmic manifestation, everything is resting in You. You are the personified indefatigable eternal time. The entire time force is existing in You, and You are therefore the seer and the embodiment of total time in the shape of past, present and future, month, day, hour, moment--everything. In other words, O Lord, You can see perfectly all the activities happening in every moment, in every hour, in every day, in every month, in every year, past, present and future. You are Yourself the universal form, and yet You are different from this universe. You are simultaneously one with and different from the universe. We therefore offer our respectful obeisances unto You. You are Yourself the whole universe, and yet You are the creator of the whole universe.

 

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Bhagavad-gita 7.26

 

vedAhaM samatItAni

vartamAnAni cArjuna

bhaviSyANi ca bhUtAni

mAM tu veda na kazcana

 

veda--know; aham--I; samatItAni--completely past; vartamAnAni--present; ca--and; arjuna--O Arjuna; bhaviSyANi--future; ca--also; bhUtAni--all living entities; mAm--Me; tu--but; veda--knows; na--not; kazcana--anyone.

 

O Arjuna, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come. I also know all living entities; but Me no one knows.

 

PURPORT

Here the question of personality and impersonality is clearly stated. If KRSNa, the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, were mAyA, material, as the impersonalists consider Him to be, then like the living entity He would change His body and forget everything about His past life. Anyone with a material body cannot remember his past life, nor can he foretell his future life, nor can he predict the outcome of his present life; therefore he cannot know what is happening in past, present and future. Unless one is liberated from material contamination, he cannot know past, present and future.

 

Unlike the ordinary human being, Lord KRSNa clearly says that He completely knows what happened in the past, what is happening in the present, and what will happen in the future. In the Fourth Chapter we have seen that Lord KRSNa remembers instructing VivasvAn, the sun-god, millions of years ago. KRSNa knows every living entity because He is situated in every living being's heart as the Supersoul. But despite His presence in every living entity as Supersoul and His presence as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the less intelligent, even if able to realize the impersonal Brahman, cannot realize SrI KRSNa as the Supreme Person. Certainly the transcendental body of SrI KRSNa is not perishable. He is just like the sun, and mAyA is like a cloud. In the material world we can see that there is the sun and that there are clouds and different stars and planets. The clouds may cover all these in the sky temporarily, but this covering is only apparent to our limited vision. The sun, moon and stars are not actually covered. Similarly, mAyA cannot cover the Supreme Lord. By His internal potency He is not manifest to the less intelligent class of men. As it is stated in the third verse of this chapter, out of millions and millions of men, some try to become perfect in this human form of life, and out of thousands and thousands of such perfected men, hardly one can understand what Lord KRSNa is. Even if one is perfected by realization of impersonal Brahman or localized ParamAtmA, he cannot possibly understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, SrI KRSNa, without being in KRSNa consciousness.

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Bhagavad-gita 11.7

ihaika-sthaM jagat kRtsnaM

pazyAdya sa-carAcaram

mama dehe guDAkeza

yac cAnyad draSTum icchasi

 

iha--in this; eka-stham--in one place; jagat--the universe; kRtsnam--completely; pazya--see; adya--immediately; sa--with; cara--the moving; acaram--and not moving; mama--My; dehe--in this body; guDAkeza--O Arjuna; yat--that which; ca--also; anyat--other; draSTum--to see; icchasi--you wish.

 

O Arjuna, whatever you wish to see, behold at once in this body of Mine! This universal form can show you whatever you now desire to see and whatever you may want to see in the future. Everything--moving and nonmoving--is here completely, in one place.

 

PURPORT

No one can see the entire universe while sitting in one place. Even the most advanced scientist cannot see what is going on in other parts of the universe. But a devotee like Arjuna can see everything that exists in any part of the universe. KRSNa gives him the power to see anything he wants to see, past, present and future. Thus by the mercy of KRSNa, Arjuna is able to see everything.

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Bhagavad-gita 13.15 Purport

He sees everything--past, present and future. He lives within the heart of the living being, and He knows what we have done in the past, what we are doing now, and what is awaiting us in the future. This is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gItA: He knows everything, but no one knows Him.

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Srimad Bhagavatam 1.4.16

parAvara-jJaH sa RSiH

kAlenAvyakta-raMhasA

yuga-dharma-vyatikaraM

prAptaM bhuvi yuge yuge

 

para-avara--past and future; jJaH--one who knows; saH--he; RSiH--VyAsadeva; kAlena--in the course of time; avyakta--unmanifested; raMhasA--by great force; yuga-dharma--acts in terms of the millennium; vyatikaram--anomalies; prAptam--having accrued; bhuvi--on the earth; yuge yuge--different ages.

 

The great sage VyAsadeva saw anomalies in the duties of the millennium. This happens on the earth in different ages, due to unseen forces in the course of time.

 

PURPORT

The great sages like VyAsadeva are liberated souls, and therefore they can see clearly past and future. Thus he could see the future anomalies in the Kali age, and accordingly he made arrangement for the people in general so that they can execute a progressive life in this age, which is full of darkness. The people in general in this age of Kali are too much interested in matter, which is temporary. Because of ignorance they are unable to evaluate the assets of life and be enlightened in spiritual knowledge.

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Srimad Bhagavatam 2.1.33 Purport

He moves with the progress of time, and therefore lie knows all about the past and future, along with His present activities. There is nothing unknown to Him.

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Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.18

na yatra kAlo 'nimiSAM paraH prabhuH

kuto nu devA jagatAM ya Izire

na yatra sattvaM na rajas tamaz ca

na vai vikAro na mahAn pradhAnam

 

na--not; yatra--wherein; kAlaH--destructive time; animiSAm--of the heavenly demigods; paraH--superior; prabhuH--controller; kutaH--where is there; nu--certainly; devAH--the demigods; jagatAm--the mundane creatures; ye--those; Izire--rules; na--not; yatra--therein; sattvam--mundane goodness; na--nor; rajaH--mundane passion; tamaH--mundane ignorance; ca--also; na--nor; vai--certainly; vikAraH--transformation; na--nor; mahAn--the material Causal Ocean; pradhAnam--material nature.

 

In that transcendental state of labdhopazAnti, there is no supremacy of devastating time, which controls even the celestial demigods who are empowered to rule over mundane creatures. (And what to speak of the demigods themselves?) Nor is there the mode of material goodness, nor passion, nor ignorance, nor even the false ego, nor the material Causal Ocean, nor the material nature.

 

PURPORT

Devastating time, which controls even the celestial demigods by its manifestations of past, present and future, does not act on the transcendental plane. The influence of time is exhibited by the symptoms of birth, death, old age and disease, and these four principles of material conditions are present everywhere in any part of the material cosmos up to the planet Brahmaloka, where the duration of life of the inhabitants appears to us to be fabulous. Insurmountable time even brings about the death of BrahmA, so what to speak of other demigods like Indra, Candra, SUrya, VAyu and VaruNa? The astronomical influence directed by the different demigods over mundane creatures is also conspicuous by its absence. In material existence, the living entities are afraid of Satanic influence, but for a devotee on the transcendental plane there is no such fear at all. The living entities change their material bodies in different shapes and forms under the influence of the different modes of material nature, but in the transcendental state the devotee is guNa-tIta, or above the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance. Thus the false ego of "I am the lord of all I survey" does not arise there. In the material world the false ego of the living being trying to lord it over the material nature is something like the moth's falling in a blazing fire. The moth is captivated by the glaring beauty of the fire, and when he comes to enjoy it, the blazing fire consumes him. In the transcendental state the living being is pure in his consciousness, and as such he has no false ego to lord it over the material nature. Rather, his pure consciousness directs him to surrender unto the Supreme Lord, as stated in the Bhagavad-gItA (7.19): vAsudevaH sarvam iti sa mahAtmA sudurlabhaH. All this indicates that in the transcendental state there is neither material creation nor the Causal Ocean for material nature.

 

The above-mentioned state of affairs is factual on the transcendental plane, but is factually revealed in a transcendentalist's knowledge of the advanced state of pure consciousness. Such transcendentalists are of two types, namely the impersonalists and the devotees. For the impersonalist the ultimate goal or destination is the brahmajyoti of the spiritual sky, but for the devotees the ultimate goal is the VaikuNTha planets. The devotees experience the above-mentioned state of affairs by attainment of spiritual forms for activity in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. But the impersonalist, because of his neglecting the association of the Lord, does not develop a spiritual body for spiritual activity, but remains a spiritual spark only, merged in the effulgent spiritual rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Lord is the full-fledged form of eternity, bliss and knowledge, but the formless brahmajyoti is simply eternity and knowledge. The VaikuNTha planets are also forms of eternity, bliss and knowledge, and therefore the devotees of the Lord, who are admitted into the abode of the Lord, also get bodies of eternity, bliss and knowledge. As such there is no difference between one and another. The Lord's abode, name, fame, entourage, etc., are of the same transcendental quality, and how this transcendental quality differs from the material world is explained herewith in this verse. In the Bhagavad-gItA, three principal subjects have been explained by Lord SrI KRSNa, namely karma-yoga, jJAna-yoga and bhakti-yoga, but one can reach the VaikuNTha planets by the practice of bhakti-yoga only. The other two are incompetent in helping one reach the VaikuNThalokas, although they can, however, conveniently take one to the effulgent brahmajyoti, as described above.

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Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.10

pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoH

sattvaM ca mizraM na ca kAla-vikramaH

na yatra mAyA kim utApare harer

anuvratA yatra surAsurArcitAH

 

pravartate--prevail; yatra--wherein; rajaH tamaH--the modes of passion and ignorance; tayoH--of both of them; sattvam--the mode of goodness; ca--and; mizram--mixture; na--never; ca--and; kAla--time; vikramaH--influence; na--neither; yatra--therein; mAyA--illusory, external energy; kim--what; uta--there is; apare--others; hareH--of the Personality of Godhead; anuvratAH--devotees; yatra--wherein; sura--by the demigods; asura--and the demons; arcitAH--worshiped.

 

In that personal abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail, nor is there any of their influence in goodness. There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy; it cannot enter that region. Without discrimination, both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees.

 

PURPORT

The kingdom of God, or the atmosphere of the VaikuNTha nature, which is called the tripAd-vibhUti, is three times bigger than the material universes and is described here, as also in the Bhagavad-gItA, in a nutshell. This universe, containing billions of stars and planets, is one of the billions of such universes clustered together within the compass of the mahat-tattva. And all these millions and billions of universes combined together constitute only one fourth of the magnitude of the whole creation of the Lord. There is the spiritual sky also; beyond this sky are the spiritual planets under the names of VaikuNTha, and all of them constitute three fourths of the entire creation of the Lord. God's creations are always innumerable. Even the leaves of a tree cannot be counted by a man, nor can the hairs on his head. However, foolish men are puffed up with the idea of becoming God Himself, though unable to create a hair of their own bodies. Man may discover so many wonderful vehicles of journey, but even if he reaches the moon by his much advertised spacecraft, he cannot remain there. The sane man, therefore, without being puffed up, as if he were the God of the universe, abides by the instructions of the Vedic literature, the easiest way to acquire knowledge in transcendence. So let us know through the authority of SrImad-BhAgavatam of the nature and constitution of the transcendental world beyond the material sky. In that sky the material qualities, especially the modes of ignorance and passion, are completely absent. The mode of ignorance influences a living entity to the habit of lust and hankering, and this means that in the VaikuNThalokas the living entities are free from these two things. As confirmed in the Bhagavad-gItA, in the brahma-bhUta [sB 4.30.20] stage of life one becomes free from hankering and lamentation. Therefore the conclusion is that the inhabitants of the VaikuNTha planets are all brahma-bhUta living entities, as distinguished from the mundane creatures who are all compact in hankering and lamentation. When one is not in the modes of ignorance and passion, one is supposed to be situated in the mode of goodness in the material world. Goodness in the material world also at times becomes contaminated by touches of the modes of passion and ignorance. In the VaikuNThaloka, it is unalloyed goodness only.

 

The whole situation there is one of freedom from the illusory manifestation of the external energy. Although illusory energy is also part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, illusory energy is differentiated from the Lord. The illusory energy is not, however, false, as claimed by the monist philosophers. The rope accepted as a snake may be an illusion to a particular person, but the rope is a fact, and the snake is also a fact. The illusion of water on the hot desert may be illusion for the ignorant animal searching for water in the desert, but the desert and water are actual facts. Therefore the material creation of the Lord may be an illusion to the nondevotee, but to a devotee even the material creation of the Lord is a fact, as the manifestation of His external energy. But this energy of the Lord is not all. The Lord has His internal energy also, which has another creation known to be the VaikuNThalokas, where there is no ignorance, no passion, no illusion and no past and present. With a poor fund of knowledge one may be unable to understand the existence of such things as the VaikuNTha atmosphere, but that does not nullify its existence. That spacecraft cannot reach these planets does not mean that there are no such planets, for they are described in the revealed scriptures.

 

As quoted by SrIla JIva GosvAmI, we can know from the NArada-paJcarAtra that the transcendental world or VaikuNTha atmosphere is enriched with transcendental qualities. These transcendental qualities, as revealed through the devotional service of the Lord, are distinct from the mundane qualities of ignorance, passion and goodness. Such qualities are not attainable by the nondevotee class of men. In the Padma PurANa, Uttara-khaNDa, it is stated that beyond the one-fourth part of God's creation is the three-fourths manifestation. The marginal line between the material manifestation and the spiritual manifestation is the VirajA River, and beyond the VirajA, which is a transcendental current flowing from the perspiration of the body of the Lord, there is the three-fourths manifestation of God's creation. This part is eternal, everlasting, without deterioration, and unlimited, and it contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions. In the SAGkhya-kaumudI it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities there are eternally associated without any break, and the Lord is the chief and prime entity. In the Agama PurANas also, the transcendental abode is described as follows: The associated members there are free to go everywhere within the creation of the Lord, and there is no limit to such creation, particularly in the region of the three-fourths magnitude. Since the nature of that region is unlimited, there is no history of such association, nor is there end of it.

 

The conclusion may be drawn that because of the complete absence of the mundane qualities of ignorance and passion, there is no question of creation nor of annihilation. In the material world everything is created, and everything is annihilated, and the duration of life between the creation and annihilation is temporary. In the transcendental realm there is no creation and no destruction, and thus the duration of life is eternal unlimitedly. In other words, everything in the transcendental world is everlasting, full of knowledge and bliss without deterioration. Since there is no deterioration, there is no past, present and future in the estimation of time. It is clearly stated in this verse that the influence of time is conspicuous by its absence. The whole material existence is manifested by actions and reactions of elements which make the influence of time prominent in the matter of past, present and future. There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation--the six material changes--are not existent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world. The whole VaikuNTha existence proclaims that everyone there is a follower of the Lord. The Lord is the chief leader there, without any competition for leadership, and the people in general are all followers of the Lord. It is confirmed in the Vedas, therefore, that the Lord is the chief leader and all other living entities are subordinate to Him, for only the Lord satisfies all the needs of all other living entities.

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Srimad Bhagavatam 3.4.18

mantreSu mAM vA upahUya yat tvam

akuNThitAkhaNDa-sadAtma-bodhaH

pRccheH prabho mugdha ivApramattas

tan no mano mohayatIva deva

 

mantreSu--in consultations; mAm--unto me; vai--as either; upahUya--by calling; yat--as much as; tvam--Your Lordship; akuNThita--without hesitation; akhaNDa--without being separated; sadA--eternally; Atma--self; bodhaH--intelligent; pRccheH--asked; prabho--O my Lord; mugdhaH--bewildered; iva--as if it were so; apramattaH--although never bewildered; tat--that; naH--our; manaH--mind; mohayati--bewilders; iva--as it is so; deva--O my Lord.

 

O my Lord, Your eternal Self is never divided by the influence of time, and there is no limitation to Your perfect knowledge. Thus You were sufficiently able to consult with Yourself, yet You called upon me for consultation, as if bewildered, although You are never bewildered. And this act of Yours bewilders me.

 

PURPORT

Uddhava was never actually bewildered, but he says that all these contradictions appear to be bewildering. The whole discussion between KRSNa and Uddhava was meant for the benefit of Maitreya, who was sitting nearby. The Lord used to call Uddhava for consultation when the city was attacked by JarAsandha and others and when He executed great sacrifices as part of His routine royal work as Lord of DvArakA. The Lord has no past, present and future because He is unhampered by the influence of eternal time and thus nothing is hidden from Him. He is eternally self-intelligent. Therefore His calling for Uddhava to give Him enlightenment is certainly astonishing. All these actions of the Lord appear to be contradictory, although there is no contradiction in the routine activities of the Lord. Therefore it is better to see them as they are and not attempt to explain them.

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Srimad Bhagavatam 4.8.26

nAradas tad upAkarNya

jJAtvA tasya cikIrSitam

spRSTvA mUrdhany agha-ghnena

pANinA prAha vismitaH

 

nAradaH--the great sage NArada; tat--that; upAkarNya--overhearing; jJAtvA--and knowing; tasya--his (Dhruva MahArAja's); cikIrSitam--activities; spRSTvA--by touching; mUrdhani--on the head; agha-ghnena--which can drive away all sinful activities; pANinA--by the hand; prAha--said; vismitaH--being surprised.

 

The great sage NArada overheard this news, and understanding all the activities of Dhruva MahArAja, he was struck with wonder. He approached Dhruva, and touching the boy's head with his all-virtuous hand, he spoke as follows.

 

PURPORT

When Dhruva MahArAja was talking with his mother, SunIti, of all the incidents that had taken place in the palace, NArada was not present. Thus the question may be raised how NArada overheard all these topics. The answer is that NArada is trikAla-jJa; he is so powerful that he can understand the past, future and present of everyone's heart, just like the Supersoul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, after understanding the strong determination of Dhruva MahArAja, NArada came to help him. It may be explained in this way: The Supreme Personality of Godhead is present in everyone's heart, and as soon as He understands that a living entity is serious about entering devotional service, He sends His representative. In this way NArada was sent to Dhruva MahArAja. This is explained in the Caitanya-caritAmRta. Guru-kRSNa-prasAde pAya bhakti-latA-bIja: [Cc. Madhya 19.151] by the grace of the spiritual master and KRSNa, one can enter into devotional service. Because of Dhruva MahArAja's determination, KRSNa, the Supersoul, immediately sent His representative, NArada, to initiate him.

====

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 2.44

ithe yata jIva, tAra trai-kAlika karma

tAhA dekha, sAkSI tumi, jAna saba marma

 

ithe--in these; yata--as many; jIva--living beings; tAra--of them; trai-kAlika--past, present and future; karma--the activities; tAhA--that; dekha--You see; sAkSi--witness; tumi--You; jAna--You know; saba--of everything; marma--the essence.

 

"Both in this material world and in the transcendental world, You see all the deeds of all living beings, in the past, present and future. Since You are the witness of all such deeds, You know the essence of everything.

====

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 2.46

nArera ayana yAte kara darazana

tAhAteo hao tumi mUla nArAyaNa

 

nArera--of the living beings; ayana--the motion; yAte--since; kara--You do; darazana--seeing; tAhAteo--therefore; hao--are; tumi--You; mUla--original; nArAyaNa--NArAyaNa.

 

"You oversee the wanderings of all living beings. For this reason also, You are the primeval Lord NArAyaNa."

 

PURPORT

SrI KRSNa, in His ParamAtmA feature, lives in the hearts of all living beings in both the transcendental and mundane creations. As the ParamAtmA, He witnesses all actions the living beings perform in all phases of time, namely past, present and future. SrI KRSNa knows what the living beings have done for hundreds and thousands of past births, and He sees what they are doing now; therefore He knows the results of their present actions that will fructify in the future. As stated in the Bhagavad-gItA, the entire cosmic situation is created as soon as He glances over the material energy. Nothing can exist without His superintendence. Since He sees even the abode where the collective living beings rest, He is the original NArAyaNa.

====

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 6.141

'nirvizeSa' tAGre kahe yei zruti-gaNa

'prAkRta' niSedhi kare 'aprAkRta' sthApana

 

nirvizeSa--impersonal; tAGre--Him; kahe--say; yei--whatever; zruti-gaNa--the Vedas; prAkRta--mundane; niSedhi--forbidding; kare--does; aprAkRta--transcendental; sthApana--confirmation.

 

"Wherever there is an impersonal description in the Vedas, the Vedas mean to establish that everything belonging to the Supreme Personality of Godhead is transcendental and free of mundane characteristics."

 

PURPORT

There are many impersonal statements about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As stated in the SvetAzvatara UpaniSad (3.19):

 

apANi-pAdo javano grahItA

pazyaty acakSuH sa zRNoty akarNaH

sa vetti vedyaM na ca tasyAsti vettA

tam Ahur agryaM puruSaM mahAntam

 

Although the Supreme Lord is described as having no hands and legs, He nonetheless accepts all sacrificial offerings. He has no eyes, yet He sees everything. He has no ears, yet He hears everything. When it is stated that the Supreme Lord has no hands and legs, one should not think that He is impersonal. Rather, He has no mundane hands or legs like ours. "He has no eyes, yet He sees." This means that He does not have mundane, limited eyes like ours. Rather, He has such eyes that He can see past, present and future, everywhere, in every corner of the universe and in every corner of the heart of every living entity. Thus the impersonal descriptions in the Vedas intend to deny mundane characteristics in the Supreme Lord. They do not intend to establish the Supreme Lord as impersonal.

====

From The Teachings of Lord Caitanya 24

Whenever we speak of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, we add the word zrI, indicating that He is full with six opulences. In other words, He is eternally a person; if He were not a person, the six opulences could not be present in fullness. If we say that the Supreme Absolute Truth is impersonal, we mean that His personality is not material. Thus in order to distinguish His transcendental body from ordinary material bodies, some philosophers have explained Him as being impersonal from the material point of view. In other words, material personality is denied, and spiritual personality is established. In the SvetAzvatara UpaniSad (3.19) it is clearly explained that the Absolute Truth has no material legs and hands, but in that scripture it is indicated that He has spiritual hands by which He accepts everything offered to Him. Similarly, He has no material eyes, but He does have spiritual eyes by which He can see everything and anything. Although He has no material ears, He can hear everything and anything. Having perfect senses, He knows past, future and present. Indeed, He knows everything, but no one can understand Him, for by material senses He cannot be understood. Being the origin of all emanations, He is the supreme, the greatest, the Personality of Godhead.

====

From The Teachings of Lord Caitanya 31

In Brahma-saMhitA the transcendental land of VRndAvana is described as being always spiritual. That spiritual land is populated by goddesses of fortune, who are known as gopIs. These are all beloved of KRSNa, and KRSNa is the only lover of all those gopIs. The trees of that land are kalpa-vRkSa, wish fulfilling trees, and one can have anything he wants from them. The land is made of touchstone and the water of nectar. In that land all speech is song, and all walking is dancing, and one's constant companion is the flute. Everything is self-luminous, just like the sun in this material world. The human form of life is meant for understanding this transcendental land of VRndAvana, and one who is fortunate should cultivate knowledge of VRndAvana and its residents. In that supreme abode are surabhi cows that overflood the land with milk. Since not even a moment there is misused, there is no past, present or future. An expansion of this VRndAvana, which is the supreme abode of KRSNa, is also present on this earth, and superior devotees worship it as the supreme abode. However, no one can appreciate VRndAvana without being highly elevated in spiritual knowledge, KRSNa consciousness. According to ordinary experience, VRndAvana appears to be just like an ordinary village, but in the eyes of a highly elevated devotee, it is as good as the original VRndAvana. A great saintly AcArya has sung: "When will my mind be cleared of all contamination so I will be able to see VRndAvana as it is? And when will I be able to understand the literatures left by the GosvAmIs so that I will be able to know of the transcendental pastimes of RAdhA and KRSNa?"

====

From a lecture

But KRSNa, about KRSNa, it is said, vijJAnena vijRmbhitaH. He's full, fully conscious. He knows. VedAhaM samatItAni. "I know everything," KRSNa says, "past, present, future." Just like KRSNa said to Arjuna, imaM vivasvate yogaM proktavAn aham avyayam, aham avyayam: [bg. 4.1] "Formerly I spoke to the sun-god." So because He does not forget past, present, future... VijJAnena vijRmbhitaH. He's always conscious, fully conscious. Whatever was done in the past, what will happen in the future, and what is happening, everything is known to KRSNa. VijJAnena vijRmbhitaH. But we have lost our consciousness. We have lost our memory that we have past, that we are parts and parcels of KRSNa, and we are identifying with this material world in different capacities. Somebody's identifying with this body; somebody's identifying with the society or community or nation or country. But KRSNa does not become such materially affected. VijJAnena vijRmbhitaH. He's always conscious.

 

[Avinash]

Krsna creates time; then why can He not do so in a way that allows Him to view it all at once?

 

I never said that He can not view past, present and future at once. All I am saying is that if He sees everything that is going to happen in future, then man has no free will. Free will and Krsna seeing everything that is going to happen in future can not go hand in hand as they are contradictory.

[Avinash]

Let me prove why free will and Krsna seeing evrything that is going to happen in future are contradictory.

 

Let us make the following two presuppositions:

 

P1: Krsna knows everything that is going to happen in future.

 

P2: Krsna's knowledge can not be wrong.

 

Now, consider any arbitrary person. Imagine any arbitrary activity and any arbitrary time in future. Let us see if the person is free to do or not to do that activity at that time. According to P1, Krsna knows if this person is going to do that activity at that time or not. If Krsna knows that he is going to do it, then according to P2, he has to do it; he is not free not to do it. If Krsna knows that the person won't do it, then he won't; he is not free to do it.

 

This means that this person is not free to do or not to do this activity at that time. Since this is true for any arbitrary person, any arbitrary activity and any arbitrary time, nobody is free to do anything at anytime.

[Avinash]

Please note: In the proof I gave above, I have applied all rule only to that imaginary person and not to Krsna. Please tell me which step of the proof is wrong.

[gHari]

No, no, no. If a sparrow sees me writing this response now, that does not mean that I 'had' to write this response now. By my free will I started typing. The sparrow is not wrong - this is just what I am doing.

 

You are thinking that the future does not exist until it 'happens'. Only from our perception this is true.

[Avinash]

The sparrow is seeing you when you are doing it. It did not see you before you started typing.

 

You are saying that future exists even before it happens. I am not sure if this is true. But, if it is, then free will is impossible.

[Gauracandra]

Just a quick point. In that multi-verse posting it was mentioned that if there are incalculable universes, each with slight variations of the next, then in one sense we all have free will, because in each and every universe "we" make every single possible combination of choices. That is one view (not necessarily Vedic).

 

Another thing that might be added into the equation is what do we mean by freewill? As I understand it we are not the doers of our activity. So if the soul desires something, first it must go through the modes of material nature to see if our karma allows it. If so, then an activity proceeds. So we can be desiring (willing) all sorts of things to happen, but in a materially bound state we are limited in our options. In a spiritually liberated state I would then think there are no limitations to the expression of our spiritual will. And since time does not exist (but in the material world) then the soul directly experiences all desires in the continuous present. Something to consider (I think)

[gHari]

Just as the sparrow sees the present, Krsna sees the future. He is time, it is within Him. He knows past, present and future at once; total cognition of all that He is, always in the ever-present now. At least those are my gleanings from the various scriptural references given. I seem to be able to put free will and all-knowing together without paradox.

 

But certainly it is only vanity for me to think that I understand. I am a simple fellow. Krsna is the final authority; His wonder is far far beyond my ability to understand. I need only to gaze at the stars in the heavens to know that I am completely dependent on Him always.<font color="#dedfdf">

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 02-20-2002).]

[xvi000]

I understand Avinash's notion. He underestimates time, logic & God as a single line, an axiom, & a man. Clear away these stiff material models from your limited brain & accept a vivid, marvelous, unlimited cosmos. See --

 

Bhg.

 

This Prakriti is My lower energy. My other higher energy is the Purusha by which this entire universe is sustained, O Arjuna. (7.05)

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But those who worship the imperishable, the undefinable, the unmanifest, the omnipresent, the unthinkable, the unchanging, the immovable, and the eternal Brahman; (12.03)

------

Self-realization is more difficult for those who fix their mind on the formless Brahman, because the comprehension of the unmanifest Brahman by the average embodied human being is very difficult. (12.05)

------

Esdras II

 

4:1 Then the angel that had been sent to me, whose name was Uriel, answered

4:2 and said to me, "Your understanding has utterly failed regarding this world, and do you think you can comprehend the way of the Most High?"

4:3 Then I said, "Yes, my lord." And he replied to me, "I have been sent to show you three ways, and to put before you three problems.

4:4 If you can solve one of them for me, I also will show you the way you desire to see, and will teach you why the heart is evil."

4:5 I said, "Speak on, my lord." And he said to me, "Go, weigh for me the weight of fire, or measure for me a measure of wind, or call back for me the day that is past."

4:6 I answered and said, "Who of those that have been born can do this, that you ask me concerning these things?"

4:7 And he said to me, "If I had asked you, How many dwellings are in the heart of the sea, or how many streams are at the source of the deep, or how many streams are above the firmament, or which are the exits of hell, or which are the entrances of paradise?

4:8 Perhaps you would have said to me, I never went down into the deep, nor as yet into hell, neither did I ever ascend into heaven.

4:9 But now I have asked you only about fire and wind and the day, things through which you have passed and without which you cannot exist, and you have given me no answer about them!"

4:10 And he said to me, "You cannot understand the things with which you have grown up;

4:11 how then can your mind comprehend the way of the Most High? And how can one who is already worn out by the corrupt world understand incorruption?" When I heard this, I fell on my face

4:12 and said to him, "It would be better for us not to be here than to come here and live in ungodliness, and to suffer and not understand why."

4:13 He answered me and said, "I went into a forest of trees of the plain, and they made a plan

4:14 and said, Come, let us go and make war against the sea, that it may recede before us, and that we may make for ourselves more forests.

4:15 And in like manner the waves of the sea also made a plan and said, Come, let us go up and subdue the forest of the plain so that there also we may gain more territory for ourselves.

4:16 But the plan of the forest was in vain, for the fire came and consumed it;

4:17 likewise also the plan of the waves of the sea, for the sand stood firm and stopped them.

4:18 If now you were a judge between them, which would you undertake to justify, and which to condemn?"

4:19 I answered and said, "Each has made a foolish plan, for the land is assigned to the forest, and to the sea is assigned a place to carry its waves."

4:20 He answered me and said, "You have judged rightly, but why have you not judged so in your own case?

4:21 For as the land is assigned to the forest and the sea to its waves, so also those who dwell upon earth can understand only what is on the earth, and he who is above the heavens can understand what is above the height of the heavens."

 

[Gauracandra]

Here is something I was reading from "The Strength of Madhvaism" which critiques Ramanuja's view of God's omniscience.

 

"The Ramanujaites also committed the same blunder in a different way. The God of Ramanuja is not infinite in omniscience by His very nature. He is capable of knowing a few things, (only five items) by His Dharmi Swarupa Jnana i.e. by His substantive nature. But with His Dharma Bhuta Jnana, His coat of infinite attributive knowledge which is quite different from Him but which accompanies Him forever like a permanent badge or uniform, God is infinitely omniscient. Thus God's infinity of qualities is due to a conditioning agent, Upadhi."

 

Avinash's point was that not knowing the future does not infringe upon God's omniscience. I'm wondering what is the Sri Vaisnava view of this. For instance, it says that God is capable of only knowing five things. What are these five (its not described in this book)? and is the future one of them?

[Avinash]

Sorry for not replying earlier as I was out of station.

 

If God knows everything about future, then future is pre-determined. If future is pre-determined, then there is no free will. Most of the arguments in this thread are there to explain how God can know everything about future. I have no objection if somebody says that God knows everything about future. I have no objection if somebody says that God does not know everything about future. But, I do not agree that God knows everything about future and still, we have free will.

[Avinash]

In that multi-verse posting it was mentioned that if there are incalculable universes, each with slight variations of the next, then in one sense we all have free will, because in each and every universe "we" make every single possible combination of choices.

 

Perhaps, you are trying to say that God knows all possibilities about future. I agree that this is not contradictory to free will. But, if God knows exactly what is going to happen at a given place and at a given time in a given universe, then again, we have no free will.

 

So we can be desiring (willing) all sorts of things to happen, but in a materially bound state we are limited in our options.

 

We can have free will even if we are limited in out options provided we have at least two options. But, if every time, we have only one option, then there is no free will.

[gHari]

Esdras II ?????

[Avinash]

J.N. Das ji,

I have one question for you. As I wrote in my previous post, I was out of station. My Mama and Mami had come to Bangalore. My Mami wanted to visit temples. I took them to various temples in Bangalore. Then, I took them to Mysore. When I inquired about ISKCON temple there, I was told that there was none. Anyway, I showed them other temples.

 

Is there any ISKCON temple in Mysore or is there only some office of ISKCON?

[gHari]

Avinash,

 

Is a Mami like a grand mother? You are so fortunate to be able to share Krsna with them. I wish a good future, knowable or unknowable, for all three of you.

 

gHari