Hinduism and Talibanism

[jijaji]

Hinduism and Talibanism

By Mukundan C. Menon

 

Which is more deplorable: destruction of Buddhism in its own birth place in ancient India by Hindus, or of Buddha statues by present day Islamic Talibans in Afghanistan?

 

 

Two well known academicians of Kerala - Prof KM Bahauddin, former pro-vice chancellor of Aligarh Muslim and Osmania universities, and Dr MS Jayaprakash, professor of history at Kollam - throw some deep insights into the dark history of India when Buddhism was systematically eliminated by Brahminical forces who control Hinduism, then and now.

 

Says Jayaprakash: ‘The ruthless demolition of Buddha statues by Taliban has courted severe criticism from different quarters of the world. Surprisingly, the BJP-led Indian Government, supported by all Hindutva forces, also condemned the Taliban action. It is a paradox that the forerunners of the present Hindutva forces in India had wantonly destroyed not only Buddhist statues but also killed Buddhists in India. Therefore, any impartial student of history would unequivocally say that these Hindutva forces have no moral right to criticize Taliban now.’

 

He elaborates: ‘Hundreds of Buddhist statues, stupas and viharas have been destroyed in India between 830 and 966 AD in the name of Hindu revivalism. Both literary and archaeological sources within and outside India speak volumes about the havoc done to Buddhism by Hindu fanatics. Spiritual leaders like Sankaracharya and many Hindu kings and rulers took pride in demolishing Buddhist images aiming at the total eradication of Buddhist culture. Today, their descendants destroyed the Babri Masjid and also published the list of mosques to be targeted in future. It is with this sin of pride that they presently condemn Taliban.’

 

Prof. Bahauddin elaborates the selfish compulsions of Brahminism to wipe-out Buddhism: ‘Buddhism tried to create a dynamic society in ancient India. Jainism also contributed its share. As Buddhism spread, iron ploughs and implement were used for development of agriculture. As a result, new areas were cultivated and agricultural productivity increased, apart from developing trade centres and road links. Subsistence-level economy changed to a surplus economy with grain storage facilities, exchange of goods, trade and development of bureaucratic administration. This also created social change - from elans consisting several families to tribes consisting several elans of similar socio-economic conditions. The emphasis of Brahmins, on the other hand, was for receiving and giving alms and not on production of goods. Those who give and receive alms were close to Gods and those who produce were considered as inferior. According to Manusmriti, a Sudra should not have wealth of his own. In case he has any, a Brahmin as his master can take it over without any hesitation. ‘Rigveda’ goes a step further to kill those who do not give ‘danam’ to the Brahmins. In other words, someone has to produce goods so that others can give ‘danam’ to the recipient Brahmins. It was against this system of 'downgrading those who produce' that Buddhism came into being.’

 

Recalls Dr. Jayaprakash: ‘The Hindu ruler Pushyamitra Sunga had destroyed 84,000 Buddhist stupas which were built by Emperor Ashoka. This was followed by the demolition of Buddhist centres in Magadha. Thousands of Buddhist saints were killed mercilessly. King Jalaluka destroyed the Buddha viharas within his jurisdiction on the ground that chanting of hymns by Buddhists disturbed his sleep! In Kashmir, King Kinnara demolished thousands of viharas and captured the Buddhist villages to please Brahmins. A large number of Buddha viharas were usurped by Brahmins and converted into Hindu temples where entry of ‘untouchables’ was prohibited. Notably, Buddhist places were regularized as Hindu temples by writing Puranas, which were invented myths or pseudo history. The important temples at Tirupathi, Aihole, Undavalli, Ellora, Bengal, Puri, Badarinath, Mathura, Ayodhya, Sringeri, Bodhigaya, Saranath, Delhi, Nalanda, Gudimallam, Nagarjunakonda, Srisailam and Sabarimala are some of the striking examples of Brahminical usurpation of Buddhist centres.’

 

Detailing the divergence in both orientation and essence between Buddhism and Hinduism, Prof. Bahauddin says: ‘Equality, compassion, non-violence, utilization of human abilities for general welfare, etc. were the cardinal principles of Buddhism. According to ‘Sathpatha Brahmanam (22-6, 3-4-14), on the other hand, the whole universe is controlled by God, God is controlled by Mantram and Mantram is with Brahmins and, therefore, Brahmins are God (on earth). They used Mantram and Sapam to instil fear in the people to obey them, while Buddhism encouraged people to observe visible facts, to apply reason to get out of fear. Buddhism also encouraged people to do good things, besides guiding Kings to look after the people's welfare. Buddhism considers the general welfare of the people, while Brahminism considers that the whole world was created for them all along. And, there is bound to be conflict between these two opposite ways of thinking.’

 

According to Dr Jayaprakash, Sakaracharya had played ‘a demon's role’ in destruction of Buddhist statues and monuments at Nagarjunakonda (in present-day Andhra Pradesh). ‘A. N. Longhurst, who conducted excavations at Nagarjunakonda, had recorded this in his invaluable book, Memoirs of the Archaeological Survey of India No. 54, The Buddhist Antiquities of Nagarjunakonda (Delhi, 1938, p. 6). The ruthless manner in which all the buildings at Nagarjunakonda have been destroyed is simply appalling and cannot represent the work of treasure-seekers alone since so many pillars, statues, and sculptures have been wantonly smashed to pieces. Local tradition relates that the great Hindu philosopher and teacher, Sankaracharya, came to Nagarjunakonda with a host of followers and destroyed the Buddhist monuments. The cultivated lands on which ruined buildings stand represent a religious grant made to Sankaracharya.’

 

Quoting Dr. B. R. Ambedkar, Prof. Bahauddin says that the conflict against Brahmin supremacy had, in fact, started before Buddhist period, between Vasishta Muni, a Brahmin, and Viswamitra, a non-Brahmin. ‘The dispute was about the learning of ‘Vedas’, the right to conduct religious ceremony, to receive gifts, and to perform coronation of King. Vasishta Muni insisted that these were the exclusive privileges of Brahmins, while Viswamitra was opposed to such exclusive rights. This dispute lasted for long period, and even Kings joined in it (Writings and Speeches of Dr. Ambedkar, vol. 7, p. 148-155. It was won by Brahmins.’

 

Prof. Bahauddin lists the different stages of Brahmin hostility against Buddhism: ‘1) 483-273 BC: The period after Buddha's death upto Ashoka's rule when attempts were made to include Brahminical ideas in Buddhist ideology. 2) 273-200 BC: When Buddhism spread all over India and became a world religion. 3) 200 BC-500 AD: The period when all possible efforts were made to disintegrate Buddhism from within by adulterating Buddhist teachings with Brahminical ideas and also through physical annihilation from outside. As a result, Buddhism divided itself into 18 sects, of which Hinayana and Mahayana were prominent ones. 4) 500-700 AD: Brahminism gained supremacy in North India and efforts began to drive out Buddhism and Jainism from South India. 5) 700-1100 AD: Brahminism gained supremacy in South India and, with added vigour, it moved again to North India to obtain complete supremacy over Buddhism and Jainism. 6) 1100-1400 AD: Buddhism and Jainism were destroyed from the remaining Southern States of Karnataka and Kerala and, thus, total supremacy of Brahminism all over India was achieved.’

 

Adds Dr. Jayaprakash: ‘Within Kerala, Sankaracharya and his close associate Kumarila Bhatta, an avowed foe of Buddhism, organized a religious crusade against Buddhists. A vivid description of Sankaracharya's pleasure of seeing people of non-Brahminic faith being burnt to death is available in ‘Sankara Digvijaya’. Kumarila instigated King Suddhanvan of Ujjain to exterminate Buddhists. The ‘Mricchakatika’ of Sudraka describes how the King's brother-in-law in Ujjain inhumanly tortured the Buddhist monks, by using them as bullocks by inserting a string through their nose and yoking them to the cart! The ‘Keralolpathi’ documents the extermination of Buddhism from Kerala by Kumarila. About the activities of Sankaracharya, even Vivekananda had observed: ‘And, such was the heart of Sankara that he burnt to death lots of Buddhist monks by defeating them in argument. What can you call such action on Sankara's part except fanaticism’ (Complete works of Swami Vivekananda, Vol. III, p. 118, Calcutta, 1997).’

 

According to Dr. Jayaprakash, there are hundreds of places in Kerala having names ‘palli’ either affixed or suffixed with them. ‘Karunagapalli, Karthikapalli, Pallickal, Pallippuram, Edappally, etc. are some examples of these places. The term ‘palli’ means a Buddha vihara. Notably, Kerala had 1200 years of Buddhist tradition. Earlier, the schools in Malayalam were called as ‘Ezhuthupalli’ or ‘Pallikoodam’. It is also worth noticing that the Christians and Muslims in Kerala use the term ‘palli’ to denote their church and mosque alike. These ‘pallies’ or viharas had been ruthlessly demolished by the Hindu forces under the leadership of Sankaracharya and Kumarila. They could exterminate 1200 years of Buddhist tradition and converted Kerala into a Brahminical state based on the ‘Chaturvarna’ system. Original inhabitants of Kerala, like the Ezhavas, Pulayas, etc., were crushed under the weight of casteism. Many a viharas was transformed into temples and majority of people were prevented from entering temples under the pretext of caste pollution. It can also be noted that the name ‘Kerala’ is the Sanskritised Aryan version of the Dravidian and Buddhist term ‘Cherala’. The Parasurama legend is nothing but an invented myth for regularizing the Brahminical ‘Kerala’ hiding its glorious Buddhist traditions.’

 

Jainism, too, met with the same fate in South India. Prof. Bahauddin elaborates: ‘Very little information is available about growth of Jainism in South India during 300-400 AD. The Jain book, ‘Digambara Darsana’, recounts the starting of a Sangham at Madurai in 470 AD and Jainism became widespread and strong during 500-600 AD (Kumaraswamy Iyengar, ‘Studies in South Indian Jainism’, p. 51-58)….. The Jains used to instal the images of their saints in their religious places, a practice which was followed by Brahmins. Hindu temples appeared all over Tamilnadu probably after converting the Jain religious places. The idols of 63 Brahmin Sanyasis, who led destruction of Jainism, still adorn the walls of some Hindu temples in Tamilnadu. The remains of destroyed Jain idols, their abandoned religious and living places are scattered all over Tamilnadu to narrate their story. Frescos depicting the kings of Jains could be seen on the walls near the Golden Tank at Madurai Meenakshi Temple where, of the total 12 annual festivals, five depict the killing of Jains according to Kumaraswamy Iyengar (p. 78-79).’

 

According to Dr. Jayaprakash, a number of Buddha statues have been discovered at places like Ambalapuzha, Karunagapalli, Pallickal, Bharanikkavu, Mavelikara and Neelamperur in Kerala. ‘They are either in the form of smashed pieces or thrown away from viharas. Lord Ayyappa of Sabarimala and Lord Padmanabha at Thiruvananthapuram are the proxy images of Buddha being worshipped as Vishnu. Hundreds of Buddhists were killed on the banks of Aluva river. The term ‘Aluva’ was derived from ‘Alawai’ which means ‘Trisul’, a weapon used by Hindu fanatics to stab Buddhists. Similarly, on the banks of the Vaigai river in Tamilnadu, thousands of Buddhists were killed by the Vaishnava Saint, Sambanthar. Thevaram, a Tamil book, documents this brutal extermination of Buddhism.’

 

Prof. Bahauddin recalls the strong reasons to believe that a large section of Jains had embraced Islam: ‘The spread of Islam in Tamilnadu can be considered in three or four stages. Islam spread in Kerala and Tamilnadu when Jainism was under pressure (650-750 AD). The new religion was received without resistance…. Since Islam considers every human being with equality Jainism and Buddhism had no conflict with it. When Muhammad ibn Al-Qasim attacked Sindh, the Buddhists supported him because they were facing annihilation at that time. A similar situation was prevailing in South India during 650-750 AD…. Muslims in Tamilnadu are called Anchuvanthar, Labba (teacher), Rauthar, Marakar (sailor) or Jonakan (Yavankan). The Anchuvanam is the guild of traders and groups of artisans. The Muslim mohallas of ‘Anchuvan Vamsagar’, ‘Anchuvanathar’, etc. are scattered all over Tamilnadu and seem to be the en bloc conversion of Jain guilds engaged in different activities, especially weaving. Those who ran away from Tamilnadu settled down in Sravanabalagola and Gomatheswaram in Karnataka. And, those who could not leave due to their economic interests converted to Islam. If we analyze the body structure, food, language, dress, ornaments, customs and habits of Anchuvanthar, it could be see that those are a continuation of Jain way of living and customs.

 

Till recently, the weavers in such Muslim mohallas will not eat at noon or night, and take only one meal before dusk. This was a continuation of Jain habits. There is a separate place in such villages called ‘Odukkam’ where Jain Munist used to sit in prayer. On the last Wednesday of the month called ‘Odukkathae’ Wednesday, the Muslims gather together to sing religious songs, which is also a Jain tradition. When religious functions like Maulood, Rathif, etc. are organized in the house, a white cloth with lotus symbol on it called ‘Mekett’ is tied, which resembles the ‘Asmanagiri’ of the Jains…. The architecture of Muslim stone mosques are completely of Jain architecture. The pillars of earlier mosques have practically no difference with the Jain temple pillars. The close relationship between traders and weavers had probably cemented by conversion to Islam. During 950-1200 AD, there were large number of Sufis, Fakirs, wandering poets, singing minstrels, etc. among Muslims all over Tamilnadu. Nadirshah with 500 disciples settled down in ‘Trichinopoly’ during 1000 AD. Aliyar Shah and his disciples made Madurai as their centre. Baba Fakhruddin travelled all over Tamilnadu. Nagur became another Sufi centre. The Muslim religious literature of Tamilnadu of that period was least different from those created by Jains and Hindus during the ‘Bhakti’ movement.’

 

Prof. Bahauddin recounts the spread of Jainism and Buddhism in Kerala, thus: ‘Jainism spread in North Kerala around 200 BC. The Jain architectural remains in Canara and Malabar are not available anywhere else in South of Nepal. While Jainism entered North Kerala via Mangalore, Salem, Coimbatore and Wayanad, it entered Southern Kerala from Tirunelveli, Kanyakumari, Nagercoil, Chitharal, etc. The hill near Anamala, which was an important Jain centre, is still called ‘Jain Durgam’. The close-by Kurumala was also a Jain centre. From Anamala through Munnar, Devikulam, Kothamangalam, Perumbavoor, etc. they reached Neryamangalam, Kothamangalam, Perumbavoor and other places. The ‘Kallil Kshetram’ in Perumbavoor is an important Jain monument as also the ‘Jainmedu’ in Vadakethara village of Palakkad district. Kerala's cave temples at Chitharal, Kallil, Trikur, Erunilamkode (Thrissur district) and Thiruveghapuram (Palakkad district) were constructed during the period of Jain King Mahendra Verman-I (610-640 AD). Temple records of Rameswaram, Sucheendram, Poothadi (Wayanad), Keenalur (Kozhicode) , etc. show that they were part of ‘Kunavai Koottam’ during 10-11th centuries. ‘Koottam’ is the place of living for Jain Sanyasis. Temple records show that all these present-day Hindu temples were Jain religious places till 11th century. Place names with Kallu, Poothan, Aathan, Kotha, Palli, Ambalam, etc. were all Jain centres. Spread all over Kerala, names of these places show that Buddhism and Jainism were widespread. The famous Kalpathi in Palakkad district was a Buddhist-Jain centre. The ‘Ratholsavam’ there is akin to the ‘Kettukazhcha’ of Buddhists. The present Bhagavati temples were also Jain temples. The group, ‘Adikal’, had a prominent position among Jains who became ‘Pisharadi’ after absorption of Jainism in Hinduism.’

 

‘Similarly, the Buddhist stoopa at Kodungallore, located in Methala village South-East of Thrikanamathilakam, is an important Buddhist ruin in Kerala…. Mahismathi was the capital of Chera King Satyaputran, which shows the relationship of Chera country (Kerala) with Buddhism. There is a reference in ‘Manimekhala’ about a Buddhist Chaityam in Kerala. While Vadakkumnatha Temple at Thrissur and Kurumba Temple at Kodungallore were Buddhist temples, Buddha statues were discovered from Kollam, Alappuzha, Mavelikara, Pallikkal, Karumadi and other places…. Treating mental patients in Thiruvadi temple and leprosy patients in Thakazhi temple shows that they were Buddhist temples since these kind of humanitarian services were not rendered out from Hindu temples…. By 900 AD Buddhism and Jainism were almost wiped out from Tamilnadu. The second settlement wave of Brahmins in Kerala during 900 AD was with Pandyan Kings' support. Karnataka and Kerala were the only two states where Buddhism and Jainism were still surviving and the second immigration of Brahmins might have been for driving out these two religions from the remaining places.’

 

Prof. Bahauddin recalls: ‘Very few people know that Buddhism and Jainism were the prominent religions of Kerala till 1200 AD. I was also under the impression that Hinduism was in Kerala from the very beginning. When facts were pieced together, a different picture emerged. Only from the end of 1800 AD the evidence became available about Buddha, Buddhism, Ashoka, etc. That fact itself is a pathetic story….’

 

Adds Dr. Jayaprakash in conclusion: ‘This is what really happened in India, the land of Buddha. But our so-called eminent historians, except a few, are bent upon eclipsing the cruelty done to Buddhists in India. These pseudo historians have succeeded in creating an impression that India is a land of righteousness and toleration. The entire world has been duped by them. The deed on the part of Taliban can be justified on the ground that Islam does not permit idols. But one has to note that Islam does not allow the demolition of other people's religious centres and images. Whatever may be the argument for and against Taliban action, the Hindu atrocities on Buddhism in India has no parallel in the entire world history of religious struggle. Let the world know the cruel and crooked face of the ‘Indian vulture without culture’!

[karthik_v]

Dear Jijaji,

 

This is another nonsense propagated by leftist historians and their western bosses. There is absolutely not one epigraphic or literary evidence that the Hindus ever destroyed even one Buddhist shrine. This detailed link should be pretty educative:

 

http://www.stanford.edusia/Events/shourie.htm

 

Our left historians like Romilla Thapar have been caught lying on this and have been exposed for the same.

[jijaji]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

There is absolutely not one epigraphic or literary evidence that the Hindus ever destroyed even one Buddhist shrine.

What about this....

 

 

TIRUPATI BALAJI WAS A BUDDHIST SHRINE

By

Dr. K. Jamanadas

1991

--

Chapter 2

Some examples of Brahmanic usurpation

 

As is well known, the archaeological remains of Buddhism speak themselves of the glory of Buddhism in ancient times. L.M.Joshi has following to say:

 

"...Even if we judge only by his posthumous effects on the civilization of India, Sakyamuni Buddha was certainly the greatest man to have been born in India. Before becoming a major faith and civilization force in the world, Buddhism had been a mighty stream of thought and a tremendous fountain-head of human culture in its homeland. Ignorance or neglect of the available Buddhist literature is not the only shortcoming of the traditional approach. The fact that the knowledge of Indian archaeology if confined to a handful of scholars in another factor which has prevented most students from viewing Buddhist culture in its entirety. Moritimer Wheeler observes that 'archaeologically at least we cannot treat Buddhism merely as a heresy against a prevailing and fundamental Brahmanical orthodoxy.' For in spite of the ravages of time and destruction by Indian and foreign fanatics, Buddhism is still speaking vividly and majestically through its thousand of inscriptions, about one thousand rockcut sanctuaries and monasteries, thousands of ruined stupas and monastic establishments, and an incalculable number of icons, sculptures, painting and emblems, that it prevailed universally among all the classes and masses of India for over fifteen centuries after the age of the Buddha, and that its ideas of compassion, peace, love, benevolence, rationalism, spiritualism and renunciation had formed the core of the superstructure of ancient Indian thought and culture." [Joshi:1977:357]

This is the state of affairs, even if we consider only the Buddhist structure in their ruined condition. So many of the Buddhist monuments were, however, not allowed to degenerate to ruins. They were taken up for Brahmanical use. This happened in all areas of India. As far as Buddhist shrines in Andhra Pradesh, where Tirupati is situated, are concerned, it is an accepted fact that many shrines of Buddha in Andhra Pradesh, were converted for Brahmanical worship.

 

Andhra and Deccan

K.A.N. Sastri observed:

 

"...In the Andhra country also, where Buddhism had flourished in great strength in the early centuries of the Christian era, there came about a strong Hindu revival ... Mathas grew up and were occupied by monks ... and ... many Buddhist shrines and viharas were turned to Hindu uses..." [sastri:1966:434] "...Its (Buddhism) decline in Andhradesa, where it had flourished in the early centuries A.D., was noticed by Yuan Chwang, and this decline proceeded further after his time. the renascent Hinduism of the period began the worship of the Buddha at Amaravati as an incarnation of Vishnu and into Hindu shrines..." [sastri:1966:436]

Ter and Chezarala

 

"At Ter is Sholapur district and Chezarala in the Krishna district are found Buddhist chaitya halls built in bricks, perhaps in the fifth century A.D. and surviving to this day because they were appropriated to Brahmanical uses after the decline of Buddhism. We refer to the Trivikrama temple at Ter and the Kapoteshvara temple at Chezarala. These two small buildings, each not more than 30 feet long, are now the only means of judging the external appearance of the Buddhist structural temple as the rock-cut chaityas has no exteriors except their facades." [sastri:1966:448]

Mention may be made here, of other experts in Archaeology and Sculpture who agree with this finding of Sastri. Sri. K. R. Shreenivasan agrees:

"Fortunately there are two apsidal shrines of this period of original Buddhist dedication and subsequent conversion to the Hindu creed, still existing in their entirety. They are the Trivikrama temple at Ter, in Western Deccan, and Kapoteswara Temple at Chejerala, in coastal Andhra. Both are dated earlier than 600 A.D., but not earlier than 300 A.D. Of the two, the Kapoteswara may be the earlier one judged from the stylistic and architectural points of view." [sreenivasan:1971:24]

Aihole

Regarding the Durga Temple at Aihole Sri. K.A.N. Sastri mentions that it was also a Buddhist Chaitya.

"Very different from Ladh Khan is the Durga temple which was another experiment seeking to adapt the Buddhist chaitya to a Brahmanical temple" [sastri:1966:451]

It may be pointed out here that name of temple as Durga has nothing to do with the famous Brahmanical goddess Durga and it was never dedicated to Her.

 

Undavalli

Similar is the case of Anantasayangudi cave-temple, Sri K. R. Shreenivasan confirms that this was originally for a Buddhist dedication.

"...A similar rock-cut cave excavation, now called Anantasayangudi in Undavalli on the south bank of the Krishna, also belongs to this class. It is perhaps of the Vishnu-kundin times and was meant originally for a Buddhist dedication..." [sreenivasan:1971:33] "...The Anantasayangudi cave-temple at Undavalli is the largest of the group and is three-storied structure akin to the Ellora Buddhist Caves 11 and 12, the Do-tal and Tin-tal. It belongs to the seventh century if not earlier, and was perhaps intended originally for the Buddhist creed, but was adopted later for a Vishnu temple, the principal deity being a recumbent Vishnu or Anantasayin..." [sreenivasan:1971:81]

Ellora

About cave no. 15 of Ellora, it is accepted by all scholars that it is a case of reconditioning of Buddhist shrine for Brahmanical use.

"The Dasavatara, or cave no.15, is an odd example in as much as it is the only two-storied cave-temple or cave-complex of a very large size. It is apparently a case of reconditioning of what was all prepared and cut out for Buddhistic requirements. It would mark the earliest example of Rashtrakuta work at Ellora. Its front pavilion carries the inscription of Dantidurga (c. 752-56) and is an accomplished piece of contemporary rock architecture." [sreenivasan:1971:72]

About same fact Yazdani observes:

"... The revival of Brahmanic faith in the Deccan had begun during the rule of Chalukyas, who built rock-hewn shrines of that faith at Badami, the seat of their government; but they were tolerant to the followers of Buddhist religion and the shrines of the latter faith continued to the built under their regime. During the reign of Rashtrakutas, who ousted the Chalukyas from the greater part of their kingdom in the Deccan, an aggressive religious spirit seems to have prevailed, for they not only converted Buddhist viharas into the temples of their own faith, *fn.* but also built new shrines on such a grand scale as to eclipse in the eyes of their co-religionist the glory of Buddhist religion..." [Yazdani :1960 :731]

To chisel out Buddhist images was the method used Yazdani further observes:

"Cave XV, called the Dasavatara, was originally a Buddhist vihara, and the images of Buddha, although chiseled off with care from many a niche, may still be noticed in some places. This cave has a long inscription of Dantidurga carved over its entrance." [fn.]

As to how conversion of these shrines was effected Yazdani observes:

"...Dasavatara, which was originally a Buddhist shrine and was later converted into Brahmanic temple and adorned with both Shaivite and Vaishnavite bas-reliefs.." [Yazdani :1960 :754]

About other Buddhist shrines he has observed:

"In the sphere of religion Buddhism had lost ground more and more since the days of Huen Tsang, and the Buddha of Amararama (Amaravati) had in fact come to be worshiped as an incarnation of Vishnu; the other four aramas of Bhimapura, Dakaremi, Palakolanu, and Drakshrama are believed to have been once famous centres of Buddhism. But subsequently became Hindu Shrines..." [Yazdani :1960 :500]

Shaivas and Vaishnavas were together in this

Thus we find that to chisel out old Buddhist images and replacing them with newly carved Brahmanic images was popular method of converting Buddhist shrines into Brahmanic ones, and also we find that Vaishnavas and Saivas were together in this. For example, in Ellora cave XV we find, after the chiseling out Buddhist images, one wall occupied by Vaishnavas and other by Shaivas:

"...Sculptures on one side are mostly Vaishnava while those on the other are entirely Shaiva..." [sastri:1966:543]

As a matter of fact there are innumerable cases, but it is not necessary to see more examples. The following will suffice as examples of Buddhist shrines taken over for Brahmanical use in days of decline of Buddhism.

Bengal

"...Even today images of Buddha are worshiped as Siva or Vishnu in many places in Bengal..." [Majumdar R.C.: 1966: 402]

Puri

"...One of the centres founded by Samkara was located in Puri in Orissa. According to Swami Vivekananda, a leading modern teacher of Samkara's school, 'the temple of Jagannath is an old Buddhistic temple. We took this and others over and re-Hinduised them. We shall have to do many things like that yet.' ..." [Joshi L. M.: 1977: 351]

Badrinatha

Name of Adi Samkara is associated with this temple. Dave observes:

"The tradition is that the temple of Badrinarayan was erected by Adi Shankaracharya in about 9the Century A.D. He secured the image which was lost, by diving deep in the Narada Kunda. ...(he) founded here one of his four principal monasteries known as the Uttaramnaya Jyotirnath." [Dave J.H.: 1970: 142]

Like other Buddhist centers taken over by Brahmins, here also, the caste restriction are not strict.:

"The Naivedya of Badari, if offered, can never be refused. There no untouchability before the Lord, no impurity in accepting the Lord's Prasad from any one. ... One refusing the Prasad with ignorance and a sense of superiority is worse than a chandala unfit for any religious duty. Even touched by the lowliest (chandala), it is never impure." [Dave: 1970: 15. Chandala is the original word in Sanskrit quotation]

Dave describes this Murthi:

"...Inside the temple Lord Narayana is seated in Padmasana with two hands in yoga mudra. The image is of black saligram stone about three feet high..." [Dave: 1970:145]

L.M.Joshi avers that this Image is the image of Buddha.

"...Among other temples of the Buddhist, took over by the Hindus, mention may be made of the one at Badrinath in Garhwal in which even the original Buddha image is still in situ and worshiped as that of Vishnu..." [Joshi: 1977: 351, emphasis ours]

Mathura

It is an accepted ancient Buddhist centre, where Buddhism flourished till about 9th century. It was such an important centre of Buddhism that the ancient school of Buddha images goes by its name.

 

"Mahakachhayana, one of the famous disciples of Buddha, actively preached Buddhism in Mathura. When Buddha visited the city, he noticed the abundance of women-folk. It is mentioned as the most famous place in Millinda Panha. Upagupta, the preceptor of Emperor Asoka whom he converted to Buddhism was the son of Gupta and a perfumer. The accepted view is that Upagupta was born in Mathura where he built a big Buddhist monastery which existed till the 7th century A.D. He converted many people of Mathura to Buddhism. Eighteen thousand pupils attained sainthood through Upagupta. The well-known courtesan Vasavadatta, who was ultimately converted to Buddhism was a resident of Mathura. Fa-Hein called Mathura the Peacock city. In his day Buddhism was flourishing here. Huen Tsang also visited it and found it 20 li in circuit. In his day there were five Deva temples, three stupas built by Asoka, twenty Buddhist monasteries and 2000 Buddhist priests." [Dave: 1970: 88]

After the fall of Buddhism, Brahmins erected temples on Buddhist sites and established their supremacy.

"Bhutesvara Mahadeo's Temple is the place where there was the stupa of Sariputta, one of the famous disciples of Buddha. "The Kesav Deo Temple was built on the site of the great Buddhist monastery called Yasa Vihara." [Dave: 1970: 90]

However, this temple was destroyed by Mohammed of Gazni in 1017 A.D.

Ayodhya

That the parts of Siva-Linga at Ayodhya and Bansi are Buddhist Relics, is well known. I.K. Sarma observes:

"...We shall cite here a unique linga shrine near Buddhist Dhauli, the ancient Tosali, capital of Kalinga 11 Km. South of Bhuvaneswar. The unusually high Bhaskaresvara Linga, 2.75m. high and 3.70m. circumference at the bottom, on excavation, was found to be resting on a lateritic pedestal shaped into an agrhapitha. This pillar was recognized as an Asokan Pillar broken at the top. A monolithic Lion capital was recovered from a nearby trench. Several other relics (Bell capital, massive yaksa images) of Asokan vintage were found and now preserved in the State Museum Bhuvaneswar. This appears to be the case with the lotiform bell with Mauryan polish used as the base of Siva linga in the Nagesvaranatha temple at Ayodhya, Dist. Faizabad, U.P.; Lotiform capital and leg part of a lion in the Linga set up at Bansi, Dist. Basti, Eastern U.P. From these evidences we can infer that certain sacred Buddhist Sthalas were converted into Shaiva Ksetras after a general decline of Buddhism..." [sarma I. K.: 1988: 10, emphasis ours]

Sringeri

On the authority of Journal of Mythic Society, p.151 and Eliot, Hinduism & Buddhism vol. II p.211, L.M.Joshi observes:

"Samkara is known to have founded his Sringeri matha on the site of a Buddhist monastery..." [Joshi: 1977: 314]

Bodhi Gaya

Buddha temple at Buddha Gaya was in the custody of a Shaivite Mahanta and he used to extract money by applying gandha to forehead of the image of Buddha upto beginning of 20th century. Even today, in the managing committee of that temple, non Buddhist Hindus only dominate. [Lokhande: 1979: 120]

Sarnath

There is an ancient image of Buddha near Sarnath, which is famous by the name of "Siva - Sangheswara" (Siva - the Lord of Sangha). [Lokhande: 1979: 120]

Delhi

A Buddha image is worshiped near Delhi in the name of "Buddho - mata" [Lokhande: 1979: 120]26

Nalanda

There are two beautiful images of Buddha near Nalanda. One is popular as Teliya Baba (one who is pleased by pouring oil on him) and the other as Dheliya Baba (one who is pleased by being beaten up by a lump of earth). [Lokhande: 1979: 120]

 

Guntepalli

Coming back again home, i.e. near Tirupati, even the Mahanagaparvata (Guntepalli) was not spared in Andhara Pradesh. I.K.Sarma observes:

"...Mahanagaparvata regained its pristine position as a Buddhist centre from early first century and renovation works went on briskly, perhaps, after a temporary spell of aggrandizement by the Jains. Even some new Vihara caves were established (nos. 36, 3, 38 and 39). The later inscriptions listed here under not only indicate Mahayana- Vajrayana affiliation of the establishment but proclaim the continuance of Mahanagaparvata as a great Buddhist centre in the ancient Vengi country right upto 11the century A.D. ... The place was finally usurped by the Saivites and the oldest circular Caitya cave was named as Dharamalingesvara and a Nandi was placed in its front. The place is venerated as a great living ksetra by the locals and on Sivaratri day, particularly the female folk, worship the Caitya as a bestower of fecundity. [sarma: 1988: 85, emphasis ours]

Role of Puranas

It is noteworthy that Buddhist places were regularized as Hindu temples by writing Puranas. Role of Puranas is well recognized in re-establishing Brahmin supremacy, but it is not properly understood that one of the main aims of writing Puranas was to claim Buddhist places of worship. L.M.Joshi observes:

"...Not only the Buddhist holy places and shrines were occupied and transformed into Hindu Tirthas and devalayas and this occupation of non-Brahmanical places and sanctuaries were strengthened by invented myth or pseudo- history (purana), but the best elements of Buddhistic culture, including the Buddha, were appropriated and homologized in sacred books..." [Joshi: 1977: 338]

 

[karthik_v]

Dear Jijaji,

 

I have a lot of regard for you for coming up with some informative posts in the past. This time I am disappointed that you have, of all, chosen to post from an anti-Hindu garbage site like dalitstan. Anyways, regarding Tirupati Balaji and other cases, the author just presents claims; not evidences. I am sure that you will agree that claims don't constitute evidences. Tirupati, going by epigraphic and hagiographic records, has been a Shaivite, Buddhist (for a brief period) and Vaishnava shrine at many times. During the periods of Azhwars (latest 5th century AD), it was a Vaishnava shrine. Then, it was a Buddhist shrine for a short while. Thanks to the decline of Buddhism, it again became a Vaishnava shrine. Not one record talks of that shrine being ever desecrated by the Hindus.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

 

I do not have anything against buddhists but it is a fact that they are a load of you know what these days.

 

It is an streched and evil calculation to say that hindus are somehow like taliban in the treatment of the buddhists -- as you can see from the following texts.

 

 

Sri Chaitanya Caritamrita, Madhya 9.48-49:

 

"Although the Buddhists are unfit for discussion and should not be seen by Vaishnavas, Caitanya Mahaprabhu spoke to them just to decrease their false pride.

 

The scriptures of the Buddhist cult are chiefly based on argument and logic, and they contain nine chief principles. Because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu defeated the Buddhists in their argument, they could not establish their cult."

 

The Buddhists could understand that Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was a Vaishnava, and they returned home very unhappy. Later, however, they began to plot against the Lord. Madhya 9.52

 

Having made their plot, the Buddhists brought a plate of untouchable food before Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and called it maha-prasadam. Madhya 9.53

 

When the contaminated food was offered to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, a very large bird appeared on the spot, picked up the plate in its beak and flew away. Madhya 9.54

 

Indeed, the untouchable food fell upon the Buddhists, and the large bird dropped the plate on the head of the chief Buddhist teacher. When it fell on his head, it made a big sound. Madhya 9.55

 

The plate was made of metal, and when its edge hit the head of the teacher, it cut him, and the teacher immediately fell to the ground unconscious. Madhya 9.56

 

So from these texts we can see some very interesting perspective on this matter.

 

Your Servant,

 

Bhakta don

 

[Tarun]

On the other hand, PrabhupAd said & wrote many times:

"SankarAcarya drove Buddhism completely out of India."

What do you think he used to DRIVE Buddhism out of India?

A Neighbor's Hydraulic Suspension Moving Van?

A Rented Ryder Truck? U-HAUL?

Just as Like can turn to Love, Push can turn to Shove.

[jijaji]

I believe 'The Shank' drove the buddha out of India on a Harley Davidson...'Big Ol Hogg'

 

Kinda like 'Easy Rider'....

 

The River Flows It Flows to The Sea, Wherever That River Flows Thats where I want to be....

 

Peace to ALL, sorry for the Dalisthan jazz..but it served its purpose.

 

jijaji

[abhi_the_great]

Namaste saints and godmen,

 

Coming from Kerala let me share a bit here. Kerala is famous for many of the traditional and orthodox brahminical cultures. There is no doubt that the brahmins were very pious and extremely knowledgeable in Kerala. There is even the story of a brahamana by the name "Melpathoor Narayana Bhattathiri", who forced the Lord of Guruvayoor (Sri Krishna) to appear before him and reveal that Guruvayoor temple is non-different from Sri Vaikuntha itself. The deity here is installed by Guru & Vayu at the end of Dwapara Yuga - as the legend goes. The same Rudra Kulam is present here, which the Prachetas had meditated(as mentioned in SB). How cd one conclude that this land is Budhas land? Hinduism or Vedic religion was always practiced here. The Budhists might have usurped it by some cunning means. So, it is not at all a mistake to recover this land by force if needed.

 

Lucky the lack-lustre communists left out Guruvayoor temple from the whole big list of converted temples.

 

During the end freedom struggle period, communism made big roadways into the culture and thinking of the general masses. A lot of people in their youth took to this nasty philosophy. This has spoiled their basic vedic mindset and made them very nasty naxalites or extremist communist. They wanted to rob and kill all the rich people and distribute the wealth among the poor(so, they claim) and bring equality into this world. Even today in Kerala communism enjoys a great popularity even to the educated and less educated hindus. They grow big beards, don't think they became a babaji or a muslim - they are intellectual - followers of Lenin and Marx.

 

Thanks to the communists, Kerala is not too much polluted by industrial wastes today. Since the communist workers are very quarellsome, they do not miss a chance to have industrial stikes. This fear has driven many industrialists away from Kerala, not to say many have bit the dust badly. This is one reason to be thankful to them.

 

Like the Christians and Muslims in Kerala, the communists also have a dream of seeing that there are no more hindus in the country. They also have contributed their part. But, in their heart they know that by doing away with the Vedic culture their country is going to become a reckless place like the west. So, as such they are not against the general social orders but only that they want the society without God.

 

Finally, coming to the point, such misdirected intellects will put in their best efforts to see that Hinduism is tarnished and completely destroyed and make people completely shy of being part of a religion. In Kerala, even today Hindus are shameful to talk about their religion. They follow hinduism but never read the philosophical parts, so they are easily brainwashed by even the most fallen communist.

 

We need genuine Vaishnavas, who are able to analyse how much truth is there in all these big talks and big books.

 

Let the falg of Hinduism fly high.

 

Jaihind

Abhi

 

 

[Avinash]

The Budhists might have usurped it by some cunning means.

 

Cunning? Which of their means were cunning?

[Love]

Anyone who is truly a Hindu will not say fanatical or zealous sentences. The reason is Hinduism believes in co-existence. In fact, it was so mature that it let others preach their religion, as Hindus knew that others were teaching religion when Hinduism preached Dharma. I don’t know how many know the difference between religion and dharma. Religion is what is detailed in a book while dharma is something that none of the ancient rishis ever attempted to classify in any Holy Book as the ultimate as they knew well that each had their own dharma and it was the duty of that individual to uphold the dharma in himself. Of course, finding the path of dharma was not easy. But the basic guide was that dharma stands on the tri-faced pillar of truth, good and beauty (Satya, Shiv, and Sundar).

Anyway, when Hindus allowed Muslims and Christians, Zoroastrians and Persians into the country to preach their own religiion when they came, why would Hindus have problem with Bodh Dharma or Jain Dharma (mind you not religions but dharma)? They were produced from Hinduism only after all. Hindus understood that eventually religion was for someone desiring the spiritual path. However, not all the people at once in this world would desire the spiritual path (if it were to be so world would not surive for long) and so for them the way to live was to uphold dharma. In ancient times there are numerous instances of a couple, where the husband followed Buddha and the wife believed in Mahavira. So, the religious democracy is something that we cannot say was not a part of the Hindu life. Besides, most of the ancient temples – be they Hindu, Jain or Buddhist as far as I am aware, were actually rampaged by the Islamic intruders and converted into mosques or destroyed totally because of the statues and idols (just as in Taliban). No wonder, then, that someone like Bahauddin, would more than love to distort the truth and say it was the Hindus who did it and not the followers of Islam. Very conveniently he also says that Jains and Buddhists found no conflict with Islam as it was also a religion that treated every human being with equality. That is utter non-sense. I recommend all Hindus to go through the Koran at least once. It is about 400 pages long written in big font size, one side of the page is Arabic, the other side is translated into Hindi with half of the translated page as foot note. This means effectively there are only 150 pages or so of Hindi or translation in your language of choice that you need to read to read Koran. It very clearly says that one who is not Muslim is relegated to the depths of hell. The duty of a true Muslim is to stab a non-Muslim in the back while making him a friend for their selfish reasons. Hinduism never says that you have to believe in Shiva, or Vishnu, or Brahma to go to heaven. It is your karma that decide it. If you want to grow beyong the cycle of brith and death you follow a religious path to thata aim util you attain Nirvana. Nirvana was not something that was available to Brahmins only. Further, a Brahmin was also known as dwija (i.e. twice-born). THis simply means that a person (once born from his mnotehr's womb somatically) and then born again when he takes rebirth from various archetypes and 16 elements of hid body and passions, etc he is called dwija (twice born) and is then a brahmin. Where does Hinduism say that a Shudra cannot attain Nirvana. I thought there was even the story of this simple boy who picked water in his nouth to sprinkle on Shiv linga nad Shiva got pleased with him and appeared before him. Then, how can Bahauddin say that Hinduism does not treate all persons with equality. If HInduism does not then there is no other belief in the world that does. It is time all the waste of energy within Hindus is stopped and we see the game that the Islamic and Western forces have played with Hindu dharma. It is very unwise to call Jainism or Buddhism outside Hinduism. They were interpretations in their own manner and showed a new path to reach God. It was the greatness of Bharat Varsha that mani-fold interpretation of God existed here without problem. By that manner each Hindu is actually following a different religion as I am sure you all have heard of personal deities, which are so widely prevalent in Hindus. Each family usually has their personal deities. This does not mean that all Hindus have different beliefs? Hindus are together by their culture and sense of dharma, while the independence is given to the human spirit within each to visualize the Supreme Being in his/ her own manner. Have none of you ever wondered why is it that at Krishna JanmaBhoomi in Mathura, the cell in which Krishna was supposed to be born is underneath a mosque? Why the place that Hindus call Rama JanmaBhoomi has actually a mosque in its place? If you as Hindus do not see this and keep on the foolish ego about Hindu being better than Jainism or Buddhism, then we have nowhere to go. We are already doomed as a race. We are destined to re-write Hinduism in our foolish ways and forget the foundation on which it was built by sages thousands of years ago. BY the way I am a through and through Jain from Saharanpur (UP) in India, who happens to live in UK. So, if someone thinks this is another Hindu trying to be belligerent (in your perspective) then please be aware that as per your definition I am a Jain. That is another thing that I believe all the different sects, cults, dharma, in India that indigenously started in India (exclude Christianity and Islam, Parsi, Zoroastrians) are all branches of Hinduism. Anyone who knows better knows the knowledge of self-destruction. When Indian history has been so much corrupted how can we take any historian’s simplest sentence without a pinch of salt. Moreover they use this only to try and prove themselves to be authentic just as Jayaprakash is doing in his article above by saying that any sincere student of history would not accept that. But this does not imply that Jayaprakash himself is being genuine about history himself, but cleverly gives an impression as if he is. I could go on and on and write about this. I could branch off into so many directions as there is so much to write, but I am sure we all get where I am coming from. Last of all, if any of you are very interested in knowing the simplest bit about Buddhism try reading

 

Buddha and the Gospel of Buddhism – By Ananda K. Coomraswamy

 

Especially read the chapter Buddhism and Brahmanism. There has not been a greater seeker of truth in modern times. I am sure you’ll love his writing, unless of course you also have a personal agenda to which you work. If you are a selfless seeker of truth then I would fail to see how you will not be able to see the sincerity in his writing that can break away the shackles created by the modern writers about Hinduism and India.

 

Just one thing to finish it all. I know of a few Muslim friends who have at least on person in their living family always who follows Hindu ways. When I asked them this they said that they know that many centuries in the past their forefathers were Hindus and so they try and retain their link to their past in this manner. This was sometimes as simple as just having one person in the household wear a dhoti. Interesting! Isn’t it?

 

[Avinash]

Buddha and the Gospel of Buddhism – By Ananda K. Coomraswamy

 

 

Of which publication is this?

 

 

[Love]

If you go to any bookshop in USA, they will be able to search it for you by the author's name or the book title. I live in UK and it is actually not in publication in UK anymore. However, I went to the bookshop and sure they had the title in their database even though it was not printed in UK. I placed an order and in about 6 weeks I got the book. The book shop managed to get it from US to UK. I am not very sure of the publisher at the moment but I think it is Citadel Press. I will check that today evening when I reach home and update the thread on it.

Cheers

[Love]

The publisher is Citadel Press. ISBN No:

0-8065-1098-6 OR 0-8065-1101-x

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Originally posted by Love:

Religion is what is detailed in a book while dharma is something that none of the ancient rishis ever attempted to classify in any Holy Book as the ultimate as they knew well that each had their own dharma and it was the duty of that individual to uphold the dharma in himself. Hinduism never says that you have to believe in Shiva, or Vishnu, or Brahma to go to heaven...It is your karma that decide it. If you want to grow beyong the cycle of brith and death you follow a religious path to thata aim util you attain Nirvana?

This is not true!

 

Your servant,

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by Avinash:

The Budhists might have usurped it by some cunning means.

 

Cunning? Which of their means were cunning?

I am just guesssing, like the Christians today, they make a big hue and cry of casteism and inequality and convert Hindus in masses. They go to the most poor people and entice them with job offers and money and food and subsidies. This is going on in India. On the other hand, if they are all so much equal why is their discrimination of black Christians over the fair colored ones?? Why has never an Asian or African become a pope in Vatican?? Why no ladies are allowed to become the pope? And the biggest, why are there so many different kinds of Christians - the catholics, the protestants all at one another's neck.

 

What I mean is they used so many devious methods and mispropaganda to preach and spread their religion into hindu majority areas. Similarly, the Muslims killed and devastated the Hindus to spread their religion.

 

How has budhhism spread in India? Is it only by preaching the pure message? Or were there some other ways? They point fingers at Sankaracarya for driving them out, how did they drive in? This is the question?

 

Jaihind

Abhilash

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by Love:

Anyone who is truly a Hindu will not say fanatical or zealous sentences. The reason is Hinduism believes in co-existence.

 

This ability to co-exist has actually corrupted the pure nature of Hinduism. Why are we so shameless, to raise our sounds even after so many years of being raped again and again by different sickly cultures and religions.

 

I agree that the Hindus need not discriminate among Jains and Budhists and Sikhs. They shd accept them as first cousins and be together.

 

Althoough myself, I am a Vaishnava, from my side, I feel as Hindus all the creeds and castes and groups and subgroups shd stand together strongly as Hindus, irrespective of philosophical differences, when it comes to the question of life OR death of hinduism. Why is it that we cannot confidently excercise our rightful claim of worshipping Lord Rama at Ayodhya and Lord Krishna at Mathura. The very existential holy places of Hinduism is under foreign rule - till today after so many years. Who are the Hindus waiting for - the govt? the supreme court?

 

It surprises me that some Hindus still talk abt ahimsa and secularity. Stinking fishes should be thrown out of Hinduism, the Kshatriya spirit needs to soar.

 

I remember the story of the King, Kulashkara Alwar (author of Mukunda Mala Stotra), who took his army and ran to the Southern banks of India to invade Sri Lanka, saying that that Ravana has stolen mother Sita - I will finish him. This great devotee was in a trance when he did this.

 

The confiscation of Rama Janma Bhoomi and Krishna Janma Bhoomi is like stealing mother Sita from Lord Rama. The land rightfully belongs to the Lord. And we shd give all kinds of support to thte movement to build a temple at this sacred spots. Mlechchas can search for other pasturing grounds outside the holy dhams. Relocate or die!! lllr to convert to islam or die!!!

 

Jaihind

Abhi

 

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

Dear Jijaji,

 

http://www.stanford.edusia/Events/shourie.htm

 

Thanks for the site. Arun Shourie is making their lives difficult to live.

 

[leyh]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

I am just guesssing, like the Christians today, they make a big hue and cry of casteism and inequality and convert Hindus in masses. They go to the most poor people and entice them with job offers and money and food and subsidies. This is going on in India. On the other hand, if they are all so much equal why is their discrimination of black Christians over the fair colored ones?? Why has never an Asian or African become a pope in Vatican?? Why no ladies are allowed to become the pope? And the biggest, why are there so many different kinds of Christians - the catholics, the protestants all at one another's neck.

 

What I mean is they used so many devious methods and mispropaganda to preach and spread their religion into hindu majority areas. Similarly, the Muslims killed and devastated the Hindus to spread their religion.

 

How has budhhism spread in India? Is it only by preaching the pure message? Or were there some other ways? They point fingers at Sankaracarya for driving them out, how did they drive in? This is the question?

 

Jaihind

Abhilash

Abhi:

 

Concepts like "Hinduism","Christianity",

"Buddhism","my religion","your religion","their religion" are all sectarian.

God is not Christian or Muslim or Hindu,and if we are aspiring to become devotees of God,then we should try to transcend all this sectarian ideas.As His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada,the Founder-acarya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness once remarked in a room conversation in Bombay on November 7,1970:

 

'We haven't got to present Krsna as Indian or Hindu. Krsna is neither of them. Krsna says, claims, that "Every living entity is My part and parcel. I am the seed-giving father." So therefore it has become successful. I never said that "You become a Hindu.You accept Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and try to understand the philosophy." What business they have got to become Hindu? But they want to know what is God. Oh, that we have been confident.'

 

We should have nothing to do with sectarianism if we want to know God.Hare Krsna!

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 02-26-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 02-26-2002).]

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by leyh:

 

We should have nothing to do with sectarianism if we want to know God.Hare Krsna!

 

 

leyh,

If the culture of a country is rooted in its ancient tradition which can bring one to the Lotus feet of the Lord thru the process of Varnashrama, then that culture is worth protecting. Its worth being sectarian for a true cause. Its worth to be attached to the rituals than being a follower of a pseudo secular outlook. Arjuna fought for Lord Krishna and the Monkeys for Lord Rama. Hinduism is all about the Lord's inconceivable pastimes. I mean the Vedic religion is abt the Lord and not a secrarian creed. But if there is need to blast the enemies, it has to be done by all supporters of Sanatana Dharma.

 

Hindustan's blood has been the tasty soup of many Muslims & Christians of the past and present. This has to be prevented at any cost. We can see that even the preaching efforts in Western countries of ISKCON hit the wall due to the resistence from Christian missionaries. Why is that only hindus need to be so humble and kind and understanding and be taken full advantage of? You won't have any answers. As Vaishnavas we need to know the dynamics of the world and know how to react in every situation. Hinduism and its glories needs to be preserved in India, whereelse can we do this?

 

If you are not sectarian, then pls go ahead and preach the glories to the muslims of Mecca - let me see how they treat you. Non-sectarianism or secularism is a weapon invented by Communists in India to hit down Hinduism.

 

Jaihind

Abhi

[Love]

The reson I say a true Hindu will not say fantical sentences is that fanticism is the tamasic form whcih is not supported by human dharma. However, standing up for dharma is right and so, indeed, we must fight for dharma. But that doesn;t have tonecessarily mean relegating others downward and so on. Anger can be a rage that is uncontroleed but if we learn to control our anger it becomes a weapon in our hand to be used effectveily and righteously. Our anger should not be something that can be provoked by others but raised by our own accord when required. IN a fight anger when not in rage can help us fight within our senses and can inspire us. However, in the ofrm os uncontrolled rage it can only make a Don Quixotic hero out of us.

 

For the second point that dharma is not detailed in a book. Sure that is correct. None of our holy books tell us what dharma is - because Mandodari's dharma was to be with Ravana. Lakshman found his dharma in being with Rama in exile while Shatrughana's dharma was to stay back and rule the kingdom as a representative of Rama. So, you see for 3 people the defintion of dharma changed. Dharma is only the stepping stone towards Nirvana. Dharma is nothing more that a way of life. When someone wants to be a sage/ spiritualist, then he/ she is in need of religion. Unfortunately, on the spiritual path every one is eventually alone and one's gurur cannot get Nirvana for his disciple, else all guru's owuld have probably got it for their disciples. It is a lonesome path. When someone on that path details a philosophy it is osmething of his/ her experience on his own path. It may guide you initially but the final door has to be chosen and unlocked by each individual. At that time no religion will help. If you look at other Holy Books like Bible/ Koran, they are not teaching any philosophy (people may disagree) but trying to teach a way of life. Whereas Indian Upanishads (especially), Puranas send a philosophical message. One day I will try and relate story from Prashnopinishad to suppport my point (very soon).

Cheers

[Avinash]

From Prasna Upanishad:

 

From where are all these creatures born?

 

Prajapati desired creatures. He performed penance and produced matter and spirit, thinking that these together should produce creatures.

The sun is life, and the moon is matter. Both with and without form are matter. When the rising sun illumines everything, it takes all the life-breaths in its rays. That fire rises as universal life in all its forms.

The year is the creator. This has two paths: the southern and the northern. Those who worship thinking, 'Sacrifice and merit have perfected us,' attain only the lunar world;

these are born again. Thus those desiring children take the southern course, and that path of ancestors is matter. Those seeking the soul by discipline, holiness, faith, and knowledge by the northern course attain the world of the Sun. This is the home of the spirits, the immortal, free from danger, the highest. From there they do not return.

 

The month is the creator. Its dark half is matter; its bright half spirit. Thus some seers perform sacrifice in the bright period,

others in the dark.

 

Day and night are the creator. The day is spirit, and the night is matter. Those who unite in love by day waste their spirit, but to unite in love by night is right.

 

Food is the creator. From this seeds are produced, and from these are creatures born.

 

Those who observe the rule of creator, produce a pair, and to them belongs this world here. But those in whom dwell penance, abstinence, and truth, to them belongs that pure Brahma-world.

 

How many angels support a creature?

How many illumine it? And which of them is supreme?

 

Space, air, fire,water, earth, speech, mind, sight and hearing are such angels. These, having illumined the creature, said, 'We support and preserve this being.'

To them the supreme life-breath said, 'Do not be deluded. I dividing soul fivefold support and preserve this union.'

They did not believe it. It rose up and out. When it rose up, then all the others rose up; and when it settled down, they settled down. They said,

'He is fire, he shines as sun, he is rain, air, earth, matter- he is what is and what is not, and what is immortal. As spokes in a wheel, everything is fixed in life: the verses, the sacrifice, the Kshatriyas, and the Brahmans.

As creator, you move about in the womb, you indeed are born again. To you, these creatures bring offerings. You are the best carrier for the gods, you are the first

offering to the Fathers. You are the true work of seers. You are Indra, Rudra, Sun.

 

When you send down rain, these creatures are delighted, hoping that there will be food, as much as they desire. You are the consumer of everything. We are the givers of what you have to consume. You are our father. Make sure that body of yours which dwells in speech, in the ear, in the eye, and which pervades the mind; does not go away.

Whatever exists in the three heavens is in your power. Protect us like a mother, and give us happiness and wisdom.'

 

From where is this life-breath born?

How does it come into this body?

How does it dividing the soul become established?

By what does it depart?

How does it relate to the external and to the soul inside?

 

The life-breath is born from the soul. As a person casts a shadow, so is this life-breath extended by the soul, and for the perfection of the mind it comes into this body. As a ruler commands the officials, so this life-breath rules the other breaths.

The soul lives in the heart. Here there are one hundred and one channels. Each of these has one hundred smaller channels. Each of these has seventy-two thousand branching channels. Within these moves the diffused breath. Rising upward through the up-breath leads by virtue to the heaven of virtue, by sin to the hell of sin, and by both back to the human world. The sun rises externally as the life-breath, for it helps the life-breath in the eye. The goddess of the earth supports a person's outbreath.

What is between, namely space, is the equalizing breath. Air is the diffused breath. Heat is the up-breath. Therefore one whose heat has ceased goes to rebirth with the senses sunk in the mind. Whatever is one's consciousness, with that one enters into the life-breath. The life-breath joined to the heat together with the soul lead to whatever world has been imagined. The wise who know the life-breath thus do not lose their offspring and become immortal.

What are those that sleep in a person here?

What are those that remain awake?

What is the angel who sees dreams and who enjoys them?

In whom are all these things resolved?

 

As all the rays of the setting and the rising sun become one in a circle of brilliance, so all of human becomes one in the mind, the highest God. In that condition people do not see, hear, smell, taste, touch, speak, take, give, nor move. It is said, 'They sleep.' The fires of the life-breath remain awake in this city. The out-breath is the householder's fire. The diffused breath is the southern fire. The life-breath is the sacrifice fire, and as the eastern fire takes its fuel from the western, so in sleep the life-breath takes from the lower. The equalizing breath is called this, because it equalizes the two offerings: the in-breath and the out-breath.

The mind is the sacrificer; the upper breath is the fruit of the sacrifice, for it leads the sacrificer day by day to God. The mind in sleep experiences its greatness. Whatever it has seen it sees again. Whatever it has heard it hears again. Whatever it has felt and thought and known in many regions and various places it experiences these again.

What has been seen and not seen, heard and not heard, experienced and not experienced, both real and unreal, one sees it all, for the mind is all. When one is overcome with light, then he dreams no longer. Then in this body arises happiness. As birds return to their nesting tree, so all these return to the supreme soul. Whoever knows that shadow-less, bodiless, colorless, bright imperishable, attains the imperishable. Knowing all, one becomes all.

 

If someone here should meditate on the word AUM until the end of one's life, then which world is won?

 

The word AUM is the higher God and also the lower. Thus with this support the wise attain one or the other. Whoever meditates on one letter is led by Rig-Veda to the human world. There endowed with discipline, holiness, and faith, one experiences greatness.

 

Whoever meditates on two letters is led by the Yajur Veda to the regions of the moon, then returns here again.

 

Whoever meditates on the supreme Spirit with the three letters of AUM is united in brilliance with the Sun. As a snake is freed from its skin, so is one freed from sin,and is led by the Sama Veda to the world of God,

where one can see the Spirit that lives in the city of the human body and is above the highest life.

 

What is the spirit with the sixteen parts?

Here in the body is that spirit in whom they say arise the sixteen parts. It thought to itself, 'In whose departure shall I depart, and in whose staying shall I stay?'

 

It created the life-breath, from the life-breath faith, space, air, light, water, earth, senses, mind, food; from food, virility, discipline, affirmations, actions, the world; and in the worlds, naming.

 

As these flowing rivers move toward the ocean, and on reaching the ocean are lost,

their name and form destroyed, and all are called merely ocean, so all the sixteen parts of the witness move towards Spirit, and reaching the Spirit are lost, their name and form destroyed, and all are called merely the Spirit. That one continues without parts, immortal.

 

[abhi_the_great]

leyh,

 

I hope this finds you happy and healthy!

Healthy true, but my hindu blood is still on the boil, especially after the karsevaks have been killed in the burning train in Gujarat yesterday!!

 

*If Rama and Krishna are non-sectarian, then their devotees are also on the path of non-sectarianism.

 

*I hope you have heard abt Rasikananda, a great disciple of Syamananda. He was once enraged, bcos his disciple kept a Muslim to guard his hse. He said you shd immediately remove the yavana and he left the hse of the disciple in a rage, bcos the disciple did no act.

 

This shows that it is not wrong to differenciate, in what is good and what is bad. This is not sectarian view. This is natural for any Hindu or a Vedic follower to associate with the right kind of people.

 

*To demolish a mosque at the wrong place is also not sectarian, its for a non-sectarian cause of building Sri Rama's temple at his birth place.

 

*I am certainly aware of the developement of the word hindu. The way I use it, is to indicate the followers of the Vedic life style. Sometimes it is nice to use the word Hindu while preaching than Hare Krishna to some people, bcos they have a cultish feeling when we use Hare Krishna. This is true especially in India, after the news papers werefilled all over with the child abuse cases.

 

*It is ones dharma to take care of ones family, to live religiously and to be respectful to ones motherland. Even the American devotees felt bad when US was attacked on 11th Sept. This kind of attachment is but natural. Except when one is on the Sannyasa asram, this feellings shd be there, otherwise one is becoming hard hearted and hypocrite. These are just natural, vaishnava's show of love and concern shd not be artificial and philosophical. Love is natural.

 

Bharath Matha ki jai

Abhi

[leyh]

Abhi:

 

I hope this finds you happy and healthy!

 

Its worth being sectarian for a true cause. Its worth to be attached to the rituals than being a follower of a pseudo secular outlook. Arjuna fought for Lord Krishna and the Monkeys for Lord Rama.

 

But are Krsna and Rama the property of any particular sect or religion? Is the sun the exclusice property of any single nation? Its light is accessible to all nations. Similarly,Krsna and Rama are accessible for the whole human society and not just Hindus.It may be worth it to be sectarian for some truly mundane cause,but if God is universal and non-sectarian,then those who are His devotees should also strive to be like Him.

 

Hinduism is all about the Lord's inconceivable pastimes. I mean the Vedic religion is abt the Lord and not a secrarian creed. But if there is need to blast the enemies, it has to be done by all supporters of Sanatana Dharma.

 

If one is really following the Vedic system,then one will have no enemies.The true devotee of God is the friend of all living entities.Where is there a need for enemies?

 

Hindustan's blood has been the tasty soup of many Muslims & Christians of the past and present. This has to be prevented at any cost. We can see that even the preaching efforts in Western countries of ISKCON hit the wall due to the resistence from Christian missionaries. Why is that only hindus need to be so humble and kind and understanding and be taken full advantage of? You won't have any answers. As Vaishnavas we need to know the dynamics of the world and know how to react in every situation. Hinduism and its glories needs to be preserved in India, whereelse can we do this?

 

A Vaisnava is concerned with Krsna Consciousness,and not the glories of "Hinduism",which incidentially is a word that cannot be found in any of the vedic literatures.The word "Hindu" This word was coined by the Muslims from provinces next to India, such as Afghanistan, Baluchistan, and Persia. There is a river called Sindhu bordering the north western provinces of India, and as those Muslims could not pronounce "Sindhu" properly, they called the river Hindu, and the inhabitants of this tract of land they became known as Hindus.

 

 

[Guest guest]

might is right. the louder you shout the more likely u win. holds good even in this forum