The Death of the West

[Gauracandra]

Pat Buchanan has a new book out called “The Death of the West”. I’ve seen him on a few programs promoting it. One of the central points of his book is that a weakening religious faith in the culture leads to the decline of the civilization – principally through a lower birth rate. He points out a number of demographic statistics. For instance, the fertility rate of European women is 1.3 children, which is far less than replacement (you need 2 just for population parity). In addition, this shrinking population leads to a much older population as a whole – one that loses its dynamism or youthful force. The projected average age for Europe by 2050 is 50, and 10% of the population will be over 80. At the same time the populations of much poorer countries will continue to grow. Through immigration this will lead to a loss of influence of Western culture.

 

Now some people accuse Pat Buchanan of being racist. Personally I don’t see it that way. He very often simply points out facts that both liberals and conservatives shy away from because of the fear of being called racist.

 

A key point he makes is that religion is the basis of civilization. And a loss of religious vigor, leads to the decline in birth population and cultural strength. At one point Catholic countries had high birth rates because the church was very much a part of their lives. Today based on many statistics I’ve seen, religion plays an increasingly small role in Europe. He notes that where religion is strong, so too is the growth in population. He notes for instance that the area of biggest growth in the U.S. is in Mormon Utah. I’ve spoken with Mormon friends and they say they would like to have between 6-8 children. With that you triple or quadruple the population every 20 years or so.

 

Its an interesting point. I’m not sure if you could “prove” it statistically, but intuitively I agree that religious vigor tends to translate into growing, dynamic populations. One concern Buchanan has mentioned is that with a dwindling Catholic/Christian population base, the Muslim world is still growing quite rapidly. So over the next several hundred years we may see the strengthening of the Islamic extremist at the same time the Christian voice will become increasingly weakened.

[abhi_the_great]

Gauracandra,

 

Sounds interesting. We can see that the Hindus are also very much getting obsessed with family planning and contraceptives. But Muslims are going guns 3,4,5,6....100 babies. They might sooon out number Hindus in India, maybe in a 100 or 200 yrs. There is a chance that Muslilms will be the dominating force in the world. I feel we need some kind of ethnic cleansing process, like the muslims did with the hindus of Kashmir. If Muslims bcome a mojority, then the whole world is in for a big time bashing, I am afraid. There needs to be some planned action to reduce the faith of Muslim people in their religion - which is being totally misused. Islam needs to be portrayed as a insensitive religion by the world media.

 

Abstaining from sex is not a very easy process. This is my experience as a married man. On the other hand, we do not have enough resources or finance to take nice care of all ones children. Its a practical problem. In earlier days, my great grandfathers family had a lot of cows and a lot of land with grain and vegetables and pepper and coconut palms. And people were not so stressed for their daily bread or clothes. So, they were happy with as many children as they had. But today, in India most of the agricultural lands are converted into residential areas. The menial workers or shudras did find it a difficult life no doubt, but for others it was more easier. But even the shudras wd have a lot of children, bcos all their food came from their masters. They were fed with family 3 times a day by their masters. But their life is better today.

 

Regards

Abhi

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by abhi_the_great (edited 02-28-2002).]

[Sarasvati]

I think this is such an interesting topic. I can also see that in Iskcon we do not encourage people to have large families. How is it that in our movement grihasthas usually have 1-3 children, whereas family-people in other religious groups that forbid/discourage contraceptives usually have 4-10 children per family? In my opinion, it would strengthen our movement if we took a positive attitude toward larger families.

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by Sarasvati:

I can also see that in Iskcon we do not encourage people to have large families. How is it that in our movement grihasthas usually have 1-3 children, whereas family-people in other religious groups that forbid/discourage contraceptives usually have 4-10 children per family? In my opinion, it would strengthen our movement if we took a positive attitude toward larger families.

I may be a little out of touch, but I'm not aware that ISKCON either encourages or discourages large families. Can you give some context--or evidence--for your remark?

 

 

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Pat Buchanan has a new book out called “The Death of the West”. . . . One concern Buchanan has mentioned is that with a dwindling Catholic/Christian population base, the Muslim world is still growing quite rapidly. So over the next several hundred years we may see the strengthening of the Islamic extremist at the same time the Christian voice will become increasingly weakened.

You don't see any evidence of racism in this? Perhaps over the next several hundred years we may see an increase in moderate, liberal-minded Muslims, such as were prominent several centuries ago.

 

 

[Tarun]

We had 2 kids while living in ISKCON then 3 more after moving out.

And I was ready to... long story. I did adopt one more.

If there's adequate facility & women are willing..

Simplicity + a little tapasya is welcomed in gRhastha life.

4 days ago my godbro Praghosh attended St Mark's Sunday Feast.

He has 6.

Another godbro Gujarati Yasomati has at least 8.

New VRndAvan ZyAmakunda produced 10, 9 with one wife.

Veda recommends pancasordhvam vanam vrajet:

Literally - 50+ forest go to

This can be interpreted in several ways.

PrabhupAd said: Women should marry young & have kids young.

He also said: For men there is no age restriction.

But once he asked one wife-desiring ziSya, "How old are you?"

His male student replied, "28!"

"Oh, you're too old to marry!" he advised.

We produced enough kids. We could've produced more.

Main problem was/is to keep husband & wife together in KC.

Then kids can easily follow. Exceptions follow regardless.

We lose more converts by malpractice & malfeasance.

SilahRda = Stoneheartji: please define racism.

External (material) or internal (spiritual) consideration?

Buchanan has many good ideas.

He's much too straightforward for Kaliyuga crooks.

Nader is too straightforward from another standpoint.

Gore was not loving Gaur. Thus we're left with Bushel.

[leyh]

I feel we need some kind of ethnic cleansing process, like the muslims did with the hindus of Kashmir. If Muslims bcome a mojority, then the whole world is in for a big time bashing, I am afraid. There needs to be some planned action to reduce the faith of Muslim people in their religion - which is being totally misused. Islam needs to be portrayed as a insensitive religion by the world media.

Abhi:

 

Your words remind me of a certain German dictator who sent millions of Jews to the gas chambers some years ago.

 

The solution to not ethnic cleansing and certainly not portrayal of Islam as an intolerant religion.These are demonic proposals and will merely add fuel to the already raging fire.

 

In another post (HE LIVES FOREVER BY HIS DIVINE INSTRUCTIONS),you demonstrated an appreciation of nectar from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.Why not try the spiritual solution that he offers for the material world --- Krsna Consciousness?

 

 

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by leyh:

Abhi:

 

Your words remind me of a certain German dictator who sent millions of Jews to the gas chambers some years ago.

 

The solution to not ethnic cleansing and certainly not portrayal of Islam as an intolerant religion.These are demonic proposals and will merely add fuel to the already raging fire.

 

In another post (HE LIVES FOREVER BY HIS DIVINE INSTRUCTIONS),you demonstrated an appreciation of nectar from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.Why not try the spiritual solution that he offers for the material world --- Krsna Consciousness?

 

leyh baba,

I am not against a tolerant solution for tolerant people. We need to be tolerant when we see that the oponent is worth it and we need to be cunning when the opponent is a jackal.

 

Srila Prabhupad never taught us to be humble and be cheated. For protecting dharma dirtatorship is needed at times. I am surprised you were not reminded of Krishna when he gave the clarion call to kill all the miscreants for the sake of dharma. My only concern is that dharma shd be protected, Vedic sites and Vedic community needs to be protected. If it needs a dictator mentality, I am for it. I feel its not intelligent to lie low after years and years of suffering under brutal rulers. I do not want to leave in a bharata bhoomi which will be ruled by the mlechcha rulers again, where there is no freedom of practicing sanatana dharma. And hundreds of murtis in Vrindavan and Mathura and all over india are slashed by barbarians. There is no reason to remain cool, when I think of these atrocities.

 

I can not pose that everything is OK when actually there is a problem. My request to you wd be to be practical in thoughts and not theoretical and hypothetical.

 

Bharat Mata ki jai!!

Abhi

[Love]

You don't see any evidence of racism in this? Perhaps over the next several hundred years we may see an increase in moderate, liberal-minded Muslims, such as were prominent several centuries ago.

Hi stonehearted,

Can you please tell me which part of history do you refer to when speaking of liberal-minded Muslims in the past? I thought Islam by its very existence is intolerant of anyone else other than Mohammad and considers a duty to kill the infidel. Islam needs to re-invent itself by the process of re-interpretation (that will be something, as Koran simply says to kill all the non-believers and I don't know how they will manage to re-interpret it) ot survive in 21st century or humanity will be forced to move against it. Alterbatively, nature may have other plans and may use Islam to end Kaliyuga. Possibilities are infinite!

[leyh]

Abhi:

 

Srila Prabhupad never taught us to be humble and be cheated.

Srila Prabhupada never taught us to engage in ethnic cleansing and villifiying of Islam.

 

For protecting dharma dirtatorship is needed at times. I am surprised you were not reminded of Krishna when he gave the clarion call to kill all the miscreants for the sake of dharma.

Where does Krsna give "the clarion call to kill all the miscreants for the sake of dharma."? Stop mis-quoting Krsna to justify your own sectarianism! Krsna could kill miscreants and demons because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.We cannot imitate Him.Can you lift up Govardhana Hill with your finger?

 

My request to you wd be to be practical in thoughts and not theoretical and hypothetical.

My request to you is that you stop using Krsna and Srila Prabhupada to justify your barbaric views.It is one thing to defend Vedic sites and Vedic community.I have nothing against that.It is a devotee's duty to defend. But it is another thing to propose ethnic cleanising and the denounciation of Islam through the mass media and using Krsna as a justification for such fanaticism.

 

Is a dictatorship a practical solution? Would it miraculously remove the hatred from the hearts of those who engage in violence in the name of Hinduism and Islam?

 

And think about this:Srila Prabhupada accepted Islam as a bona-fide religious process.This is an undeniable fact.

 

I wish you well,Abhi.But I totally disagree with your proposals for dictatorship,ethnic cleansing and vilification of Islam.I think they are simply nonsense and if India or any other country were to adopt these proposals,the result will only be more hatred and more violence.

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 03-06-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 03-06-2002).]

[Gauracandra]

Certainly there is no official Iskcon policy preventing devotees from having large families. Though I think it could be argued that as a monastic based organization, certain sentiments regarding marriage and children have permeated the movement. I suspect, or should I say wouldn’t be surprised, if our average number of children is lower than the U.S. national average. Purely based on casual observation, I think most devotees that do have children usually don’t have more than 2. There is the rare exception that has a lot, but most don’t I think.

 

As for Buchanan’s “racism”, I don’t know if I’d call it that. He believes that Western Civilization is the greatest civilization, and sees a threat not from competing ideas (the better one wins) but rather by sheer volume overtaking other nations. As for Islam’s glorious history of tolerance, I’ve heard some say this, but haven’t really seen much evidence for it. We’ll see in a few hundred years….

[Sarasvati]

There seems to be two discussions going on - one about the family size, another about Muslims. Well, just my $0.02 worth: I've met nice, tolerant Muslims. They can be just as wonderful people as anyone else, boys.

 

About the family size: yes, it's true that there are large families in our movement, but it is not particularly encouraged as it is in the Mormon community, etc. The very fact that most grihasthas have only few children is a proof of this. Harikesha Maharaja (during his reign in Europe)actually adviced his disciples to have maximum two children. So there you go.

 

Of course, things are changing. But most of us are coming from a culture that undervalues the importance of large families.We bring that attitude to Krishna Consciousness. It is not that long ago that grihastha-life was still considered "maya". Traditionally, Vaishnavas used to have large families, such as Bhaktivinod Thakura had.

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by Tarun:

We had 2 kids while living in ISKCON then 3 more after moving out. . . . We produced enough kids. We could've produced more.

Main problem was/is to keep husband & wife together in KC.

Then kids can easily follow. Exceptions follow regardless.

We lose more converts by malpractice & malfeasance.

SilahRda = Stoneheartji: please define racism.

External (material) or internal (spiritual) consideration?

Buchanan has many good ideas.

He's much too straightforward for Kaliyuga crooks.

Nader is too straightforward from another standpoint.

Gore was not loving Gaur. Thus we're left with Bushel.

Well said, regarding kids. More important than having a lot is to care for and train them well. If you can do this with a bunch, go for it. We only had 2 daughters, but I trained over 50 boys as a gurukula teacher.

 

Regarding racism, perhaps xenophobia would be more accurate, Tarun. Pat is, more than anything else, an outspoken nationalist. He can't tolerate anything deifferent from his version of American ideals.

 

stone

 

 

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by Love:

Hi stonehearted,

Can you please tell me which part of history do you refer to when speaking of liberal-minded Muslims in the past? I thought Islam by its very existence is intolerant of anyone else other than Mohammad and considers a duty to kill the infidel. Islam needs to re-invent itself by the process of re-interpretation (that will be something, as Koran simply says to kill all the non-believers and I don't know how they will manage to re-interpret it) ot survive in 21st century or humanity will be forced to move against it.

Hi there, Love. Before I forget, I want to ask you where in the Quran it says to kill all infidels. How much of the Quran have you read? There is a difference between popular understanding of Islam (both inside and outside of Islam) and what the Holy Quran actually says. Much of the oppression perpetrated in the "Moslem" world comes not from the Quran but from indigenous cultures who have adopted (and adapted) Islam. This certainly includes the way women are treated; the things we hear about in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, for example, are not supported by Quran.

 

Bernard Lewis has recently published a book called What Went Wrong. There he examines the history of Islam and its interactions with the West. He has published adapted excerpts in several magazines. What you find if you go beyond pop-culture and xenophobic versions of Islam's history is that, until 500 or 600 years ago, the Islamic cultures led the world in pretty much every field of endeavor. People of many cultures and religions lived and prospered in Muslim states. That's not to say there was never any zealotry in Islam--there was a lot. As things declined for Islam, their exasperation built and they found less civilized ways of trying to cope.

 

[gHari]

Here are two Koran gems. More are HERE.

And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods

with God wherever you shall find them; and seize them, besiege them,

and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert,

and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their

way. 9:5

 

Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as

believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God

and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the

truth. 9:29

<font color="#dedfdf">

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 03-06-2002).]

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by gHari:

Here are two Koran gems. More are HERE.

<font color="#dedfdf">

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 03-06-2002).]

It may be better to read these in context. We could find some nasty sounding verses in the Bible, especially the Old Testament. I can't think of anything from "Hindu" scriptures offhand that would be comparable, but I'd guess such verses wouldn't be too difficult to find for those strongly motivated.

 

But I asked, and you repsponded, so I owe you thanks.

 

Enjoy your jihad.

[gHari]

Here is the context of the above Qu'ran verses.

 

This is an excerpt of the gruesome summary of the chapter:

Problems of the Period

 

If we keep in view the preceding background, we can easily find out the problems that were confronting the Community at that time. They were: <blockquote>

 

1. to make the whole of Arabia a perfect Dar-ul-Islam,

2. to extend the influence of Islam to the adjoining countries,

3. to crush the mischiefs of the hypocrites, and

4. to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the non- Muslim world. </blockquote>

 

1. Now that the administration of the whole of Arabia had come in the hands of the Believers, and all the opposing powers had become helpless, it was necessary to make a clear declaration of that policy which was to be adopted to make her a perfect Dar-ul-Islam. Therefore the following measures were adopted:

 

<blockquote>A. A clear declaration was made that all the treaties with the mushriks were abolished and the Muslims would be released from the treaty obligations with them after a respite of four months.(vv. 1-3). This declaration was necessary for uprooting completely the system of life based on shirk and to make Arabia exclusively the center of Islam so that it should not in any way interfere with the spirit of Islam nor become an internal danger for it.

 

B. A decree was issued that the guardianship of the Ka`abah, which held central position in all the affairs of Arabia, should be wrested from the mushriks and placed permanently in the hands of the Believers, (vv. 12-18) that all the customs and practices of the shirk of the era of 'ignorance' should be forcibly abolished: that the mushriks should not be allowed even to come near the "House" (v. 28). This was to eradicate every trace of shirk from the "House" that was dedicated exclusively to the worship of Allah.

 

C. The evil practice of Nasi, by which they used to tamper with the sacred months in the days of 'ignorance', was forbidden as an act of kufr(v. 37). This was also to serve as an example to the Muslims for eradicating every vestige of the customs of ignorance from the life of Arabia (and afterwards from the lives of the Muslims everywhere). </blockquote>

 

2. In order to enable the Muslims to extend the influence of Islam outside Arabia, they were enjoined to crush with sword the non- Muslim powers and to force them to accept the sovereignty of the Islamic State. As the great Roman and Iranian Empires were the biggest hindrances in the way, a conflict with them was inevitable. The object of Jihad was not to coerce them to accept Islam they were free to accept or not to accept it-but to prevent them from thrusting forcibly their deviations upon others and the coming generations. The Muslims were enjoined to tolerate their misguidance only to the extent that they might have the freedom to remain misguided, if they chose to be so, provided that they paid Jizyah (v. 29) as a sign of their subjugation to the Islamic State.

 

3. The third important problem was to crush the mischiefs of the hypocrites, who had hitherto been tolerated in spite of their flagrant crimes. Now that there was practically no pressure upon them from outside, the Muslims were enjoined to treat them openly as disbelievers (v. 73). Accordingly, the Holy Prophet set on fire the house of Swailim, where the hypocrites used to gather for consultations in order to dissuade the people from joining the expedition to Tabuk. Likewise on his return from Tabuk, he ordered to pull down and burn the 'Mosque' that had been built to serve as a cover for the hypocrites for hatching plots against the true Believers.

 

4. In order to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the whole non-Muslim world, it was necessary to cure them even of that slight weakness of faith from which they were still suffering. For there could be no greater internal danger to the Islamic Community than the weakness of faith, especially where it was going to engage itself single-handed in a' conflict with the whole non-Muslim world. That is why those people who had lagged behind in the Campaign to Tabuk or had shown the least negligence were severely taken to task, and were considered as hypocrites if they had no plausible excuse for not fulfilling that obligation. Moreover, a clear declaration was made that in future the sole criterion of a Muslim's faith shall be the exertions he makes for the uplift of the Word of Allah and the role he plays in the conflict between Islam and kufr. Therefore, if anyone will show any hesitation in sacrificing his life, money, time and energies, his faith shall not be regarded as genuine. (vv. 81-96).

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[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 03-07-2002).]

[gHari]

EM EYE SEE, KAY EE WHY; EM OH YOU ES EE.

 

A Religion for Morons

 

For those who have some familiarity with the Vedas, I'm afraid the Koran is just simply Mickey Mouse childishness by comparison. Maybe these people are that dull that they needed something this trivial, but after reading a tenth of the book, I've found nothing that would even justify my considering it a religion. Nothing to take notice of. Sheer nonsense start to finish. Mohammed may have been cool, but they have included some of his out-of-date messages in their scriptures which will necessarily destroy the religion. No loss.<font color="#f7f7f7">

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 03-07-2002).]

[Tarun]

leyhji: A side issue, no doubt tangential:

I don't believe there were any Nazi gas chambers.

For sure there were none at Auschwitz.

I understand u were making a different point to abhi.

I'm just tired of hearing the same false propaganda.

Sarasvatiji: 2 discussions tied together.

Hitler wanted all Jews to move to Madagascar not Palestine.

Turns out he was right.

Our media prove it everyday.

Had League of Nations followed Hitler's Plan, zero Jewish-Muslim strife in Mid-East today.

Instead, daily we have to hear how many were killed yesterday.

Hitler was pro-reproduction & polygamy amongst his elite.

He's advertised as monsterous by those who want to distract.

PrabhupAd said 30 yrs ago:

"This Earth planet can maintain 10 times the present population."

That's about 5-6 times our population now.

It's just a question of proper management.

[gHari]

Why did Krsna create Islam?

 

I am speculating that we have a primitive people who are naturally aggessive and who need something to give them a feeling of superiority to offset their feelings of inferiority. Islam provides them what they want. And maybe they will just make some spiritual advancement at the same time.

 

Perhaps I shouldn't write now, for I'm having great difficulty generating anything but contempt for the prophet.

[jijaji]

Mr Leyh....

 

The New Guru....ha ha ha ha ha ha

 

[abhi_the_great]

leyh

My request to you is that you stop using Krsna and Srila Prabhupada to justify your barbaric views.

Same words can give different realisations to different peolpe at different platforms of evolvement. So you need to bear my openness and frankness and understanding. If not, then ther is a problem with your understanding, so kindly cool it out.

 

Is a dictatorship a practical solution? Would it miraculously remove the hatred from the hearts of those who engage in violence in the name of Hinduism and Islam?

 

If sweet talk does not work, then give gifts, then threaten and if threatening also does not work, then punish. But if the very existence of Hinduism is challenged, then don't waste time, talking sweet words and trying to act as if there is no hatred. Lets be practical.

 

And think about this:Srila Prabhupada accepted Islam as a bona-fide religious process.This is an undeniable fact.

 

When the muslims in Mayapur tried to steal away the dieties of Radha Madhava, immediately Srila Prabhupad bought weapons for the temple. If there is a threat, we need to be prepared.

 

I wish you well,Abhi.But I totally disagree with your proposals for dictatorship,ethnic cleansing and vilification of Islam.I think they are simply nonsense and if India or any other country were to adopt these proposals,the result will only be more hatred and more violence.

 

Some might agree and many might disagree, but the truth remains that there is imminent danger. It is OK if Islam is understood as a Sri Caithanya Mahaprabhu explained it to Chand Kazi, but the danger is that it is understand as a religion which instructs that only by killing the kafirs one really becomes dear to Allah.

 

There is no end to argument and counter argument, and its not of my interest. But, this is an open forum and I do not feel guilty in expressing my thoughts and realisations here. Thanks for your advice on what I shd write and how I shd think. But I know that I am logical to a great extend in my conclusions of the threat from Islam as it is understood today by practitioners.

 

You are free to think in your own good way, leyh.

 

If there is any problems with my postings let it come from the Administrator and I shall certainly obey.

 

Thanks for your caring reply. I know that although your reply was hot it was not really due to hate for me, but due to love for me!!

 

Hare Krishna

Abhi

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by Tarun:

leyhji: A side issue, no doubt tangential:

I don't believe there were any Nazi gas chambers.

For sure there were none at Auschwitz.

I understand u were making a different point to abhi.

I'm just tired of hearing the same false propaganda.

Sarasvatiji: 2 discussions tied together.

Hitler wanted all Jews to move to Madagascar not Palestine.

Turns out he was right.

Our media prove it everyday.

Had League of Nations followed Hitler's Plan, zero Jewish-Muslim strife in Mid-East today.

Instead, daily we have to hear how many were killed yesterday.

Hitler was pro-reproduction & polygamy amongst his elite.

He's advertised as monsterous by those who want to distract.

PrabhupAd said 30 yrs ago:

"This Earth planet can maintain 10 times the present population."

That's about 5-6 times our population now.

It's just a question of proper management.

Looks from here like Leyh IS the new guru after all.

Tarun, some of the stuff you say is funny, sometimes interesting and sometimes makes me sick to know we have the same guru. I'd actually forgotten about your pro-Hitler/holocast-denying stance. It's not too late to repent; Hitler was extreme demon, and he was fuelled and empowered by people who ignored or minimized the monsterous evil he inflicted on innocent human beings. He tried to imitate Vishnu, steal His symbols, much like your president Bush with his Operation Enduring Freedom, while innocent people who have nothing to do with what happened on Sept. 11 die horrible deaths in caves,through 'calateral damage' and as 'brave souls' sacrificing their lives for another New World Order.

 

 

[Love]

Hello stonehearted,

 

It so happens that I have a copy of Koran (translated into Hindi by Muslim scholars themselves as part of the UP Government funds that are set up for this purpose exactly). The copy is in India at the moment. Whenever I am next in india I could try to quote something really surprising from theier. One of them as it was written in Hindi was:

 

Make friends wiht non-believers if you have to, but remember to stab them in the back when the opportuninty comes. A non-believer is doomed for hell (dozakh) where he will be eternally punished for not believing ALlah and his only messenger Mohammad. (Now which Hindu rishi says that I ma the only one sent by God). We believe that it is possible for all beings to go closer to God provided they endeavour for it.

 

A man can give up his woman simply or even kill her if even as much as he suspects her of being unworthy.

 

I am sure you will not find things like these in the Hindu scriptures as they are really philosophies while neither Bible nor Koran are philosophical works but laws that tell you what to do. The closest in Hinduism to these would be Manu's book. It is strange that no one sees through the thing when it is all clear in the Koran as to what it is all about. It is the book of adharma.

 

Tell me one thing - have you ever read Koran yourself. If not, I sincerely suggest that you do go out and read it.

[leyh]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

leyh

My request to you is that you stop using Krsna and Srila Prabhupada to justify your barbaric views.

Same words can give different realisations to different peolpe at different platforms of evolvement. So you need to bear my openness and frankness and understanding. If not, then ther is a problem with your understanding, so kindly cool it out.

 

Is a dictatorship a practical solution? Would it miraculously remove the hatred from the hearts of those who engage in violence in the name of Hinduism and Islam?

 

If sweet talk does not work, then give gifts, then threaten and if threatening also does not work, then punish. But if the very existence of Hinduism is challenged, then don't waste time, talking sweet words and trying to act as if there is no hatred. Lets be practical.

 

And think about this:Srila Prabhupada accepted Islam as a bona-fide religious process.This is an undeniable fact.

 

When the muslims in Mayapur tried to steal away the dieties of Radha Madhava, immediately Srila Prabhupad bought weapons for the temple. If there is a threat, we need to be prepared.

 

I wish you well,Abhi.But I totally disagree with your proposals for dictatorship,ethnic cleansing and vilification of Islam.I think they are simply nonsense and if India or any other country were to adopt these proposals,the result will only be more hatred and more violence.

 

Some might agree and many might disagree, but the truth remains that there is imminent danger. It is OK if Islam is understood as a Sri Caithanya Mahaprabhu explained it to Chand Kazi, but the danger is that it is understand as a religion which instructs that only by killing the kafirs one really becomes dear to Allah.

 

There is no end to argument and counter argument, and its not of my interest. But, this is an open forum and I do not feel guilty in expressing my thoughts and realisations here. Thanks for your advice on what I shd write and how I shd think. But I know that I am logical to a great extend in my conclusions of the threat from Islam as it is understood today by practitioners.

 

You are free to think in your own good way, leyh.

 

If there is any problems with my postings let it come from the Administrator and I shall certainly obey.

 

Thanks for your caring reply. I know that although your reply was hot it was not really due to hate for me, but due to love for me!!

 

Hare Krishna

Abhi

Abhi:

 

I have nothing against defending Dharma.But ethnic cleansing is not defence of Dharma.It is adharma.The same goes for vilification of Islam.

 

But if the very existence of Hinduism is challenged, then don't waste time, talking sweet words and trying to act as if there is no hatred. Lets be practical.

So it is practical to engage in ethnic cleansing and to vilify another person's religion?

 

It is OK if Islam is understood as a Sri Caithanya Mahaprabhu explained it to Chand Kazi,

Instead of proposing ethnic cleansing,why not preach Lord Caitanya's message?That is the most sublime solution.

 

But, this is an open forum and I do not feel guilty in expressing my thoughts and realisations here. Thanks for your advice on what I shd write and how I shd think.

You are entitled to your opinions and your writings,just as I am entitled to speak up when I see misrepresentations of Krsna Consciousness.

 

I hope my choice of words have not offended you.Hare Krsna.