Jesus in Kashmir, Mary in Pakistan!!

[Priitaa]

 

Prabhupada? He is nothing but a hair strand to Jesus....

 

 

You are offensive! And again, you can't ctonrol your tongue and mind and are compelled to disrespect my spiriutal master and put him down! You know nothing of him, yet you judge.

 

"No one is pure no one...Only the Son of God is pure..so he only I believe and his scriptures..."

 

Only your spiriutal teacher is pure but not ours? What conceit you have. This must give you great pleasure tho. Or else your faith is so weak that you have to put down other paths in order to put yours up. We must be very powerful if you find it such a threat you must come here and criticize to get your personal empowerment.

 

By the way, your repeated posts about how you believe only in scripture, specifically the Bible -- as I have told you elsewhere, it is not hard to prove the Bible has been tampered with, a lot. Not a little. You can remain stubborn in your faith and keep blinding yourself to the fact that Bible is no longer the word of Christ, but on these boards you will wind up with posts that show the nonsense within the Bible as the result of man. Therefore it is not wise you should even be instigating in such a way if you are the Xtian you claim to be. Unless you are trying to get us to post the evidence of the contamination of the Bible.

 

"List his qualities, his background and compared to Jesus..."

 

Just because you dont know he has qualities, does not mean he has no qualities. I know them, many here know them, you just dont want to know them. Nor is it not my job to do the research for you, a fault finder. Do it yourself or be quiet. You are lazy about this tho. You wouldn't believe in Prabhupada if he walked on water, healed the sick, and rose before your eyes.

 

"He died...and where is he now? "

 

Major offense! He never died. He is still with us and constantly helping the deovtees. Due to your material vision this is all you can see. While I recognize Jesus never died, you never give mutual respect. That's arrogance. My patience grow short with your insults and ignorance on what you speak on.

 

"No one could ever tell if he return to the world and take the body of ....____..."

 

I dont know what you expect me to fill in that blank with, as my mind doesn't go in the same places yours does, but I do know its offensive and you better knock it off.

 

"He even not in the scriptures..But Jesus? He is the Son of God...No one else...Open your eyes men!"

 

What scriputre would that be? ha You who do not even undrestand the Vedas, who keeps stubbornly insisting prajapati is Jesus when those who know Sanskrit better than you repeatedly explain how this is not so, are challenging scripture? First get an education. Then speak.

 

And you wonder why so many Hindus doesn't see what you see, and convert? Because you did not undrestand the Vedas in the first place, which is obvious by all your posts on the topic. Maybe you are not seeing what they see.

 

"Guest Who Has No Name (t.y. for this new name. great! sounds wonderful!) "

 

Actually, it sounds cowardly. Too paranoid or fearful or whatever other reason, to actually let people know who you are.

[Priitaa]

http://bric.users.ftech.net/chapter03.html

 

The Lights Of Truth Go Out

 

TRUTH DIES WITH THE APOSTLES

By the end of the first-century the conveyers of theocratic knowledge were all dead. The first 'presence' period of Jesus Christ had come to its end; the specially assisted revealing of knowledge was over. Manmade theories and doctrines were systematically stamping out any remaining influence left by these first-century disciples, true spiritual knowledge was dying from the earth with them. It would be impossible for humans alone to restore it; at least, not until the same 'helping spirit' was reactivated again. Bible evidence indicates that this would not take place until much later, almost 2,000 years later, when God's non-intervention time allocation to the nations came to an end, (see chapter 13). Then, active involvement influencing in the earth's affairs would start again; the communication link would be renewed, promoting accurate theocratic knowledge.

 

Many will disagree, claiming that the Christian religion started by the apostles continued on and is still doing so. Well, according to the apostles themselves, this was certainly not what they expected to happen after they died. These apostles had written a lot of privileged information on how the situation was to develop. Let's examine just what they did anticipate.

 

SPIRIT COMMUNICATOR

Jesus made a promise to his apostles in the year AD 33 that he would maintain direct links with them until the then functioning Jewish age came to its end. He said: "Look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things (age)" (Matthew 28:20 NWT). Even though Jesus moved back to the spirit realm, he maintained a direct personal link with each individually he had purchased by means of a spirit powered communicator.

 

The Jewish age or system ended in complete destruction under the hands of the Romans, just as Jesus had predicted it would (check Luke 21:5-6, 20). The historical records confirm that this occurred in the year AD 70 when the Roman armies under Titus completely destroyed the temple and the capital city of Jerusalem, removing all Jewish inhabitants from the land of Israel; (further information on this can be found in chapter 17).

 

We can now calculate that Jesus' promise to maintain this special spiritual communication with his apostles continued for a further 37 1/2 years, from 33 to 70. The apostles fully understood that they were working within a limited time frame that would only last 37 1/2 years. This is why Paul in the year AD 56 speaking about how his contemporary Christian brothers should conduct themselves, said they should bear in mind that "the appointed time has grown short" (1 Corinthians 7:29, NRSV). So as the time left to them was reduced, only 14 years left remaining, they should arrange their affairs taking this into account.

 

The direct communication bonding through the spirit power not only strengthened them, but taught them things that Jesus had previously said they were unable to grasp, but would be able to when they were tuned into this power source. To do this they required their own personal spirit 'communicator and receiver'. The apostles received this exclusive piece of equipment when it was presented to them at Pentecost in 33. The scriptures tell us that when they received this spiritual equipment, it was like a tongue (symbol of speech) of fire that sat on each one, Acts2:3. Immediately it went to work on their minds, giving them instantaneously the ability to speak in new languages. It also elevated them mentally, enabling them to receive knowledge and understand many important issues and developments that previously they had been unable to grasp (John 16:12-15).

 

LIMITED PERIOD

This spirit communicator and mental educating mechanism would only be given to selected individuals and for a limited time. When they died, the mechanism would die with them. Along with the information they received in connection with the Kingdom came warnings of the situation that was to develop following their deaths and the ending of this special arrangement. The apostle Paul explained that a full-blown apostasy would later take over. He warned about it, in fact, he said this very warning that he was giving them was then acting as a restraint, holding the main apostasy back until its permitted time to take over. Although Paul told them that it was partly in evidence then, it would not be fully out in the open until the restraining influence of the apostles, and the spirit working through them, were out of the way in death (check 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12).

 

The apostle John, right at the end of his life around AD 98, confirmed what Paul had already said about this antichrist, but by then the antichrist was taking over fast, as the restraints were all but died off, proof that they were already then at the end of the Kingdom recruiting period (1 John 2:18-19, 4:1-3). The term 'apostasy' carries the original Greek meaning of separating, deserting or abandoning. The apostasy would desert or abandon the true knowledge in favour of its own false teachings. In this way the apostasy would be directly opposing what Christ had taught and revealed; it would be an antichrist organisation.

 

CHRIST OPPOSING APOSTASY TAKES OVER

Once the restraining apostles had been removed through death, the antichrist apostasy, took over completely, it was foretold to last for a set period of time. Paul said: "There will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for them-selves to have their ears tickled, and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories" (2 Timothy 4:3-4 NWT).

 

The apostles anticipated the antichrist apostasy taking over after they died, to last for an appointed period of time, during which this apostasy condition and antichrist organisation would rule. According to 2 Thessalonians 2:8, follow-ing this allocated time period the apostasy would be exposed by Christ himself when he again turns his attentions to the earth and Kingdom affairs, some 1,900 years later at the time of the 'manifestation of his presence', (check 2 Thess 2:1-12).

 

The apostles also warned of many of the false teachings or doctrines that the corporate apostasy would bring in, establishing them through their own approved and appointed teachers.

 

THE GREAT APOSTASY.

They would bring in destructive contradicting teachings, 2 Pet 2:1.

They would exploit their followers with deceptions, 2 Pet 2:3.

 

Follow teachings of demons, hypocrites speaking lies, 1 Tim 4:1.

 

They would forbid some of their members to marry, 1 Tim 4:3.

 

They would make decrees not to eat certain foods, 1 Tim 4:3.

 

They would turn from the truth to false stories, 2 Tim 4:4.

 

They would teach a denial that Christ was the only begotten son of God, referred to as the inspired expression of error, this was probably the most reprehensible of all, 1 John 4:1-9.

 

APOSTASY RESTRAINING ENDS

As soon as the final apostle died, this is precisely what happened! Once the resistance put up against it by the spirit empowered apostles was no longer there, the truth abandoning apostasy spread and gained ground. The second-century saw much confusion, contradiction and conflict. The prevalent opposition religions were vying for predominance which included the Greek and Roman pagan forms of worship.

These religions had evolved numerous religious doctrines and ideas that were becoming mixed with the apostles' teachings. When major conflicting differences in doctrines occurred, gradually the weight of the pagan concepts won out. There were no power-assisted apostles left to resist it. This progressive mixing and polluting with pagan doctrines diluted out any strength of true Christian knowledge.

 

The doctrines central to the Greek and Roman religions were multiple God deities, particularly triad deities. Greek philosophers such as Plato had developed beliefs in multiple gods and man's relationship with them. These concepts derived from more ancient civilisations such as Egypt. From these hand-me down ideas the Greeks and thereby the Romans cultivated their ancient religious beliefs, including the immortality of the human soul, an underworld concept of purgatory tormenting with fire, and family deities of Gods; they incorporated all of these into their pagan religions.

 

Through the mixing of such potent pagan ideas the pure truth was dissolved out. One of the major foretold apostasy doctrines to appear was the one that would contradict Christ's position as being the only begotten son of God (1 John 4:3,5,6,9). By tracing the history of the apostasy and how it developed the denial doctrine of error on the origin of Jesus Christ, we shall see how the spirit induced truth of the apostles was indeed slowly rubbed out.

 

With the restraints removed, a melting pot of religious ideologies, and doctrines developed. Various conflicting thoughts and pagan concepts from the Roman, Greek, Hebrew and Christian religions were stirred into a simmering broth. As time passed the friction and confusion often brought the pot to the boil, resulting in many heated clashes. Under various leaders, groups of dissenters were gathered, following their own particular teachings. By the year AD 325 about 225 years after the last apostle had died, this whole divisive situation was causing great concern to the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine. He was getting so much trouble in his empire from the unrest and conflict caused between these pseudo-Christian and pagan groups, so to settle things down he set up a council in the city of Nicaea to sort the mess out and agree a unified state religion that all could live with and he could back.

 

APOSTASY DEVELOPED THROUGH CREED DOCTRINES

The position of Christ as always was the focal issue: was he God, angel, or man? As far as Constantine was concerned he didn't much care which was agreed, so long as it was agreed by all, and the wrangling stopped. From the cauldron of this confusion evolved a primitive statement of belief: a simple creed statement, it was hoped all could agree too. Crystallised at this council, the creed slowly at first, as the conflicts could so easily be re-ignited, but bit by bit, and through various stages, became fashioned into a full statement of belief. This first creed as it was laid out stated:

 

STAGE 1

"We believe in one God, the Father, almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father. Only-begotten that is only from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through him all things came into existence, the things in heaven and the things on earth. He became man like us and because of our salvation came down and became flesh, becoming a man, suffered and rose again on the third day, ascended to the heavens and will come to judge the living and the dead".

 

This creed statement set the ball rolling by creating an ambiguous phrase 'begotten not made' implying that Christ was God from God, a type of subdivision of God, rather than created by God. The next stage came a generation later, in the year AD 381. A second council was called this time at Constantinople. This council took the original creed set down 56 years earlier and embellished it, bringing in an additional concept. This developed creed stated:

 

STAGE 2

"We believe in one God, the Father, almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten from the father before all ages, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom things came into existence. Who because of us man and because of our salvation came down from heaven, and was made flesh by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man, and was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried, and rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures and ascended to heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father, and will come again in glory to judge the living and dead, and of whose kingdom there will be no end; We believe in the holy spirit, the Lord and life-giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and son is together worshipped and together glorified, Who spoke through the prophets; in one Holy Catholic and apostolic Church. We confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins; we look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen".

 

This development of the creed added the aspect of the holy spirit, referring to it as 'the Lord and life giver..who with the Father is together worshipped and glorified'. The creed statement of doctrine had now developed further, not only was Jesus a sub-divided part of God, a non-created being, but the Holy Spirit was now, not as according to the scriptures the power of God but a 'Lord and life giver' who is also a subdivision of God. This Holy Spirit is now to receive 'worship and glory' along with God and the Son as a third person: three entity subdivisions of God, or three Gods in one. This was much more acceptable to the leanings of those who already believed in multiple pagan deities. This revised creed became known as the Nicene Creed statement.

 

Seventy years later in AD 451 there was yet another council at Chalcedon where the earlier Nicene creed was yet again massaged this time into what has become known as the Chalcedonian Creed. This creed laid down the following statement:

 

STAGE 3

"Following the holy fathers we all together teach men to acknowledge as one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at the same time, complete in Godhead and complete as man, truly God and truly man, made up also of a reasonable soul and body, of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his being man, like us in all respects, apart from sin. Regarding his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but as regards his being man, begotten for us men and for our salvation, from Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer.

 

One and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only-begotten, recognised in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation, the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and substance, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ, even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the Fathers has handed down to us".

It would challenge any reader to find where Jesus taught this in the scriptures.

 

This statement of belief that God and Jesus Christ were one person became the cornerstone doctrine of this new creed religion, which had evolved over a period of some 350 years. It was a composite religion forged some 80% from base pagan religious doctrines and 20% from scriptural. It had evolved through the years of wrangling, compromises and just plain bludgeoning; becoming the official Roman state religion, the only approved religion operating hand in glove with the ruling authorities. It was a truly creed-based statement religion, with a basic foundation of pagan doctrines, incorporating a facade of so-called Christian ideas.

 

Upon this foundation of pagan doctrines, the new creed religion cherry-picked the scriptures for bits it could use that fitted in with the evolved creed-based beliefs, while ignoring all references in the apostles' teachings that repudiated these creed doctrines. All the time the main point at issue was, who was Jesus Christ? Although each stage was fearsomely contested by opposing protesters to these creed statements, they lumbered on despite all opposition, eventually ending up in a form of received and accepted collection of fundamental doctrines.

 

The apostles would not have recognised the creed religion and certainly would have had no part of it. The correct understanding had died off with them; that Jesus was equivalent in nature to pre-rebellion Adam, a perfectly created loyal Son of God, and could therefore re-balance the scales of justice. He could not be equal with the creator God as stated in the creeds, no mre than Adam was equal to God, (Romans 5:18). The creed doctrines invalidated the legal balancing arrangement of the ransom and therefore devalued the significance of the death of Jesus Christ.

 

This trinity doctrine, as it became known, with the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit all subdivisions of a single spirit-being Godhead, was never believed or taught by the apostles. They had always taught that Jesus Christ was subordinate to his God and father, regarding him as a created being. This 'phoney' idea was embellished bit by bit into the full-blown trinity doctrine. The apostasy had through its creed development created an acceptance of the erroneous statement, that Jesus Christ was God in man's form. The inspired expression of error had emerged and established itself (1 John 4:6).

 

BIBLE CENSORSHIP IMPOSED

The scriptures were now more or less completely under the control of this evolved antichrist creed religion, acting in confederation with the Roman state administration. Now that the trinity doctrine stated and established by their creed was becoming inculcated into the masses it was hardly in its interest to publish too much of the information that the apostles had written down. The last thing they wanted was to stir up the old arguments, particularly as to who the scriptures evidenced the Son of God to be. Censorship of the writings of the first-century disciples was tight. Available copies were controlled, and only those teachers approved and appointed by the creed religion were allowed to expound the now fully developed apostasy doctrines (2 Pet 2:1-3, 1Tim 4:1-3).

 

These creed statements were used for the indoctrination of the masses through oral inculcation. The creeds were taught and memorised parrot fashion, by repetitious use. The old adage 'repeat a lie often enough and it will be believed' formed a major part of the indoctrination process of these creeds.

 

Apart from the trinity doctrine, other Platonized erroneous pagan doctrines, were similarly consolidated in this way through creed development. Hellfire and immortality of the soul were both adopted from the pagan religions. Again, these creed doctrines ran directly contrary to the scriptural information, that when a person dies that is the end. The hope generated by the scriptures was for a later resurrection; until then they 'sleep' in the grave. How can a being with an immortal soul also have a resurrection?? There can only be one or the other. The Bible advocates resurrection; the pagan advocates immortal soul. Resurrection is referred to over 40 times in the Greek scriptures, whereas, immortal soul not once, check a concordance.

 

It is all too apparent that these creed-introduced doctrines are still held today as the most important central doctrines by nearly every Christian denomination that exists in the world. What a massive indoctrination has been achieved by these creed religions. Of the world's five billion population, approximately 25% over a billion call themselves Christian; of this approximately 99% belong to organisations that teach the trinity and other originally pagan ideas in one form or another. Of the remaining 1%, approximately half are not sure what they believe, leaving only a handful of religions in Christendom that reject this trinity teaching.

 

THE DARK AGES

Returning to the fourth-century. The spiritual lights were out; little if any spiritual knowledge about the Kingdom was available. Darkness had truly set in, the so-called Dark Ages had arrived. God's Kingdom plan was on hold, as the apostles had said it would be. The church state religions had managed to bury God's word. This is an all-too-often repeated failing of men, when in a position of controlling knowledge. Jesus had warned the religious clergy of his day of the same fault at Matthew 23:13: "You lock people out of the Kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them" (NRSV).

 

Through these Dark Ages, much blood-letting was done in the name of religion, with very little truth from God's word allowed to shine. The first real threat to the censorship control of the Bible by the churches came with a mechanical invention. In 1439 Gutenberg first developed the printing press in Germany. By 1455 about 150 copies of the Bible had been printed; quickly, printing presses appeared everywhere. The mechanism was now available to allow lay people access to the Christian Greek scriptures, bypassing the control and censorship of the all-dominating Church.

 

Lay people could now read and study these early printed translations. Although full of errors, received through multi-generation copy corruption’s in the manuscripts then available, they still allowed a partial comparison between scripture and Church doctrine. Once the Church had lost its binding censorship control, it moved to the next best position; it backed and authorised only the roughest and most doctrinally corrupted translations.

 

This situation continued for over 1,000 years. So inculcated did the central Trinitarian doctrine become within the Church that when the Bible was first printed in the Textus Receptus form, the words were deliberately tampered with and changed to make it read and appear that the scriptures taught this spurious doctrine. To illustrate this point, the King James Bible of 1611 translates 1 John 5:7-8: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

 

The words in bold were added to the manuscript to support the trinity teaching. Later, more accurate translations corrected this deliberate act of fraud, leaving out the spuriously added words, although even today many Bibles are still sold with this commonly recognised error included. Nevertheless, back there a dirty translation was better than what was previously available: virtually nothing! As time passed, scholars often working against negative church pressure, researched the ancient manuscripts to rake out the errors that had crept in. The inevitable eventually happened: more and more individuals through Bible study began to protest at the obvious non-biblical doctrines and falsified errors that they had been taught by the Church. Thus the Protestant Reformation started only 50 odd years after the invention of the printing press and the release of the censorship stranglehold. The first man-motivated 'Age of Awakening', as some referred to it, had started.

 

Before we review the progression back to some semblance of accurate scriptural knowledge through the turmoil and frustrations of the Protestant Reformation era, we need to turn our attention back in chapter 4 to the written information from God, or more correctly as it now was, the printed information from God.

 

[Guest guest]

dear pritta...

i don't want to sound rude or challange authority of ne 1 and personally i would like to believe in him...

it is just 1 of the books....shri prabhupada(i hope i got the name correct) is being interviewed by some one in 1970's in USA...and he says that scientists are foolish and life cannot be made in test tubes...he then denies the possibility of Test tube babies!! but we know that he was wrong ... the science did work this miracle....so lost my faith in him...i can not remember the name of the book....wat do you say to this?

[Guest guest]

life is not MADE in test tubes.... they put sperms and eggs in the tubes (so life's already there) and the babies grow up like they are in the womb

 

prabhupada says that they cannot create life, not that they cannot put already living things somewhere and make them grow

 

so your faith in prabhupada is restored.. jay prabhupada!!!

[Guest guest]

Hello,

I stumbled in here quite by accident..interesting discussions though..I think the "war" of words between Christians and Hindus is about 2,000 years old now? :-)

Regarding Jesus' tomb in Kashmir, let me ask a question; why haven't Hindus taken any interest in resolving this mystery? Isn't Kashmir after all an integral part of India history? Whether one is referring to the "Lost Tribes of Israel" being in India, or the graves of Noses, mary, jesus...why have no Hindus expressed desires for truths that exist on their own soil? Isn't Ayodhiya considered the birthplace of Abraham? (Brahma-Ram)So why must it always take "outsiders" and foriegners to express interest in sites that shouild be of iunterest to Hindus first...and whyy have Hindus made no efort to secure and preserve these sites and sent researchers into this field?? Just curious

[Guest guest]

OH! And I might also ask, who legally 'owns' the tomb site? Does anyone know?

[Guest guest]

more hindu fanaticism?... no thanks... (abraham-brahma ram????? uh??)