impersonalist bhakta?

[skeptic]

Might sound like a stupid question but....

 

Is it possible to practice bhakti yoga to an impersonal God? I mean, are there any sects of Hinduism which partake in this type of worship. On first impression it might seem like an oxymoron (some people say that about me, without the "oxy" part though). But it does seem feasable that one could worship Krishna or Rama or Shiva, etc as an avatar of an impersonal God while upholding the virtues of bhakti.

[Pita das]

No it is not possible to practise Bhakti to the impersonal feature of the Absoulute Truth

WE can appricate the Sunshine as it comes into our room but we must understand its source and from that source the Sun Globe the persiding Diety of the Sun

then there is possiblilty of relationship and then there is possiblity of Love Prema Bhakti.

Krishna the orginal source the one who stops repeated birth and death He is the Object of Devotion so intelligence persons

direct thier love to the root of the tree as in watering ,then all other expansions of the Lord are satisfied as the limbs and branches are also satisfied in a watering process

[skeptic]

But isn't Krsna just a path to God in the same way that Jesus, Rama, Siva, and Muhammed, not to mention countless others, are? And if he is a path to God then isn't it possible for someone to devote themselves entirely to him as a means to achieve God? Krsna isn't really God, right? He's the embodiment of God. He's an incarnation of Vishnu. At least that's what I've read.

 

[This message has been edited by skeptic (edited 03-16-2002).]

[Pita das]

Krish means repeated birth and death and Na means one who stops this.

 

So if we are to give a name for God Krishna is the most perfect.

 

He is the frist and then He expands into countless parts and never become less .

 

Just like when one take cups of water from the sea the sea never reduces.

 

Of these cups of ocean from the one we call Krishna there are two diffrent types one is eternally liberated and one is etrnally conditioned .

 

where the sea mets the land there is a shore

and when the jivas the indivual cups of Krishna become separted from them they must decide weither to remain within the wetness of the sea in a indivual relationship with the ocean of Krishna or to be separate from Him.

 

The sea is the chit world of eternal reality and the land is the a chit world which is different than the nature of the cup of water because it is illision tempory and of repeated birth and death

 

within this place the jiva is forced to be covered by 2 jackets the mind and the body

and its real eternal nature it forgets.

 

The mind constanlty tell idenifies itself as the body

 

It thinks it is hindu christian jain muslim jew male female fat tall ugly beautiful and struggles with hundreds and thousands of desires which never staisfy

Because these desires are in realation to the happiness of the mind and the body.

so there is a story of a old woman who see a sweet siging bird with a brass cage and buys the bird and cage and takes it home.

 

each day she very carefully polishes the brass cage but never feeds the bird within

 

soon when the bird become hungry it stops singing and the women laments ,why why isnt the bird siinging like before?

 

I polish the cage each day never thinkig to feed the bird.?

 

Soon then ofcourse the birds dies of hunger.

 

In the world of Maya Illison the a-chit world of repeated birth and dead we forget to feed the bird ,the spiritual nature which is whom we are and we can not find happiness

 

One who Chants Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare Hare.

 

At once awakens the sleeping self and feeds the bird and becomes happy by tapping the ocean of happiness Lord Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

Bhakti is always towards a personal God. Even Sankara Bhagavadpada taught us to practise bhakti only to peronal feature with form and not to brahman. The "advaitins" like Thyagayarajar who realized Rama is said to have ekaatmika devotion to Rama.

 

 

[skeptic]

Originally posted by ram:

Bhakti is always towards a personal God. Even Sankara Bhagavadpada taught us to practise bhakti only to peronal feature with form and not to brahman. The "advaitins" like Thyagayarajar who realized Rama is said to have ekaatmika devotion to Rama.

 

 

That's not the information I'm getting. Here's something I found that relates....

 

<blockquote>Bhakti - Surrender

 

From The Narada Sutras (The philosophy of Love)

Translations by

Swami Prabhavananda

Sri Ramakrishna Math

 

Narada gives these as the signs of Bhakti (devotion): When all thoughts, all words, and all deeds are given up to the Lord, and when the least forgetfulness of God makes one intensely miserable, then love has begun.

-Aphorism 19.

 

Bhakti is intense love for God.

-Aphorism 2.

 

In its intrinsic nature this divine love is immortal bliss.

-Aphorism 3.

 

By attaining It, a man becomes perfect, immortal, and satisfied forever.

-Aphorism 4.

 

On attaining That a man does not desire anything else; he grieves no more, he is free from hatred or jealousy; he does not take pleasure in the vanities of life; and he loses all eagerness to gain anything for himself.

-Aphorism 5.

 

The devotee may first become intoxicated with bliss. Then, having realized That, he becomes inert and silent and takes his delight in the Atman (Self).

-Aphorism 6.

 

Bhakti (devotion) cannot be used to fulfil any desire, being itself the check to all desires.

-Aphorism 7.

 

(Supreme love is attained) by uninterrupted and constant worship of God.

-Aphorism 36.

 

By hearing of and singing the glory of the Lord, even while engaged in the ordinary activities of life.

-Aphorism 37.

 

There is no difference between God and His devotees.

-Aphorism 41.

 

When a man attains this supreme love, he sees his Beloved everywhere, he hears of Him everywhere, he talks only of Him, and he thinks of Him only.

-Aphorism 55.

 

The devotee does not grieve at any personal loss, for he has surrendered himself, everything he has, and even the rites and ceremonies which are enjoined by the scriptures.

-Aphorism 61.

 

Even though the devotee may have surrendered himself utterly to the Lord, he must not renounce action in the world but continue to perform it, giving up the fruits of action to the Lord.

-Aphorism 62.

 

Dedicate all your actions to God and direct all your passions, such as lust, anger, pride, and so forth, toward God.

-Aphorism 65.

 

When such lovers of God dwell on earth, their forefathers rejoice, the gods dance in joy, this earth becomes sanctified.

-Aphorism 71.

 

Among them there are no distinctions based on caste, learning, beauty of form, birth in a high or low family, wealth, possessions, and the like.

-Aphorism 72.

 

Arguments are to be avoided.

-Aphorism 74.

 

Because there is no end to them and they lead to no

satisfactory result.

-Aphorism 75.

 

The Bhakta should cultivate harmlessness, truthfulness, purity, compassion, faith and other such virtues.

-Aphorism 78.

 

To love the eternal Truth- this indeed is the greatest love.

-Aphorism 82.

 

Whoever believes in this auspicious description of divine love by Narada, and has faith in these teachings, becomes a lover of God, attains the highest beatitude, and reaches the supreme goal of life.

-Aphorism 84.

</blockquote>

 

 

[This message has been edited by skeptic (edited 03-17-2002).]

[leyh]

How can a bhakta be an impersonalist? An impersonalist may disguise himself/herself as a bhakta,but a real bhakta can never be impersonal.

[bhaktajoy]

Dear Skeptic,

No,impersonal Devotional service is impossible.God is universal conciousness where as our conciousness is limited to our bodies only.Conciousness is always personal,for example we are also personal beings.God is infinite so his faces are everywhere in you and me,even in an atom.

 

Sruti, the unwritten portion of the Vedas tells us this about the Almighty - "OM Poornamadah Poornamidam Poornaad Poornamudachyate; Poornasya Poornamaadaaya Poornamevaavashisyate". Translated, this verse means "What is Whole - This is Whole - What has come out of the Whole is also Whole; When the Whole is taken out of the Whole, the Whole still remains Whole". The purport is that the Infinite cannot be measured arithmetically - God is Infinite. However, although you cannot divide or subtract from the Infinite, you can definitely represent the Infinite in different ways. The Infinite also manifests in billions of ways.

 

The truth is - Hinduism is monotheistic (Believes in One God). However, Hinduism believes not only in One God, but also in His Supreme Personality. This personality of the Supreme Being is manifested in different forms around us and within us perpetually. To meditate on the Supreme Being, man would have to absorb all these infinite manifestations (which are continually taking place without a starting point or an end) with his finite or limited capabilities. Clearly, this is not possible.

 

When we speak of krishna or God we mean "everything".We were never "outside" of God and God is everything.This is very simple God has got unlimited personalities,each of them unique in their own ways.Krishna is the supreme personality of Godhead,he is "allattractive"...

 

Impersonal concept of God is for less intelligent men,It dosen't describe the absolute truth 100%.God is always a person,Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagvatam has all the answers.You may want to visit www.krishna.org and read articles there.Also www.near-death.com has many profound near death experiences...you will see there God is personal.People have different concepts according to the knowledge they have got,we will see Lord Krishna after death and for those who are atheist they will see a blinding loving light like 10,000 of suns(It is Brahmajyoti or Brahman which is subordinate to God).

 

God bless u.

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 03-17-2002).]

[Pita das]

sceptic

look threw your last post and you will see the pronouns him many times mentioned

in reference to the supreme .

 

If this reference for the Supreme were impersonal the pronoun It would be used

 

In the Great Purana of Narada ,Brihat Narada Purana it is stated

 

Hari Nama Hari Nama Hari Nama eva ka va lum kalow nas stava na stava na stva gati ran ata

 

Hari Nama the name of Lord Hari the chanting of Hare Krishna Maha mantra is the only process in this age to devolp love of God

na stava means only and here it is mentioned 3 times to stress that,

 

thats it!

 

according to Shree Narada Muni Mahajana (A great authority)whom you also quoted

 

[skeptic]

Dear All,

 

Thank you for replying to my question about impersonal bhakti yoga. I have been studying many different ways to reach God through the Indian tradition of Sanatana Dharma and sometimes I find many conflicting views. That's why I asked the question about impersonal bhakti yoga. It seemed to make some sense to me but apparently I have a lot to learn.

 

Bhaktajoy, you made a very good point when you wrote:

 

<blockquote>The truth is - Hinduism is monotheistic (Believes in One God). However, Hinduism believes not only in One God, but also in His Supreme Personality. This personality of the Supreme Being is manifested in different forms around us and within us perpetually. To meditate on the Supreme Being, man would have to absorb all these infinite manifestations (which are continually taking place without a starting point or an end) with his finite or limited capabilities. Clearly, this is not possible.</blockquote>

 

To meditate on the supreme being knowing that He is an infinite manifestation is definitely something that apperas to be impossible to humans based on our finite capabilities and understandings. That is something I must surely contemplate more.

 

Instead of furthering this discussion right now I think I'll instead think about and meditate on the answers that you gave me. I sure hope I didn't offend anybody by asking this. I know how sensitive these issues can be to some people.

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by skeptic:

Instead of furthering this discussion right now I think I'll instead think about and meditate on the answers that you gave me. I sure hope I didn't offend anybody by asking this. I know how sensitive these issues can be to some people.

 

It is not wrong to understand that the Lord is infinite and impersonal. It is possible by following the path of Advaita Vada. The Advaita Vadis consider the form of the Lord temporary and worship it as a means to an impersonal end. They understand that ultimately everything is impersonal and the material world is an illusion. Here also the bhakti is towards the person, but in the end they deviate from Bhakti to Mukti. The goal is never bhakti. The Vaishnavas surely differ here as you have already noticed in the previous answers.

 

If you feel an attraction for understanding the impersonal feature of the Lord thru Sanatana dharma, I encourage you to read more and research more deeply. The books from Ramakrishna, Chinmaya and others can guide you in that direction. But for getting pure bhakti read Srila Prabhupad's book, there is no other alternative, no other alternative, no other alternative. Especially Srimad Bhagavatham will be most helpful in developing bhakti.

 

Hare Krishna

Abhi

 

[skeptic]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

If you feel an attraction for understanding the impersonal feature of the Lord thru Sanatana dharma, I encourage you to read more and research more deeply. The books from Ramakrishna, Chinmaya and others can guide you in that direction. But for getting pure bhakti read Srila Prabhupad's book, there is no other alternative, no other alternative, no other alternative. Especially Srimad Bhagavatham will be most helpful in developing bhakti.

 

Actually, I'm attracted to both. That's why I was wondering whether or not there is some "school of thought", so to speak, out there that follows and/or combines both. I think the closest I've found yet has been Sri Ramakrishna.

 

And you're definitely right about the Srimad Bhagavatam's power to develop bhakti. I have a version other than the one Srila Prabhupada translated which is very inspirational. I'd like to get my hands on some of the volumes Srila Prabhupada translated too, especially the fifth canto.

 

 

[gHari]

Attracted to both? Then you need the philosophy of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu from the fifteenth century (sometimes spelled Chaitanya). His idea was that God is simultaneously one and different from all that is.

[bhaktajoy]

Dear Skeptic,

There are many religions in this world because of different lessons people needed to learn.You will see in those near death experiences(www.near-death.com) they do not loose their individuality at any given point of time.Impersonal philosphy unnecessary bewilders conditioned souls,How could conciousness be impersonal?

 

"Perfect Questions and Perfect Answers" here is the link it is online it is helpful.

 

http://www.harekrsna.org/Prabhupada%20-%20Perfect%20Questions%20Perfect%20Answers.pdf

 

Take care.God bless u.

[Tarun]

KaniStTha-bhaktas see God in Deity, but not in devotees.

KaniSThas cannot glorify their guru w/o insulting someone else.

That's an vivid example of semi-impersonal bhakti.

This impersonal-bhakti attitude pops its head from time to time, specially since 5Mar1982.

Beware the Ides of March.

Madhyam-bhaktas of differing degrees see God not only in Deity but also in their guru, senior sAdhus, all seniors, godbrothers, godsisters, people in general, animals, plants, minerals, elements.

Uttam-bhaktas see God's presence everywhere.

ZrIla Gaur Kizor dAs Babaji saw KRSNa's instigation behind village boys throwing stones at himself.

He warned KRSNa:

"I know U have put them up to this. If U don't tell your friends to stop, I'll complain to YazoDAmayi. She'll fix U but good!"

[skeptic]

Originally posted by gHari:

Attracted to both? Then you need the philosophy of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu from the fifteenth century (sometimes spelled Chaitanya). His idea was that God is simultaneously one and different from all that is.

Don't you have a website devoted to Caitanya Mahaprabhu? If so, what's the URL?

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by skeptic:

I think the closest I've found yet has been Sri Ramakrishna.

 

I am sure that Sri Ramakrishna glorifies bhakti to attain mukthi in most fronts. He does also point out that one can maintain ones individuality only in bhakti and only for the sake of worshipping the Lord.

 

But the bhakti he mentions is not towards impersonal brahman but towards a form, viz kali, durga, krishna, shiva, vishnu etc.

 

Sankara mentions panchopasana, the worship of 5 dieties before attaining the impersonal moksha.

 

In one article I read Vivekananda saying that there are 2 ways to mukti: 1 is by becoming humble by the perfomance of bhakti. There he compares maya to a net. By becoming humble one becomes smaller and smaller and can escape the maya-jal, the net of Maya, by escaping thru the net. Like how a small fish escapes the fishermans net. These class of philosophers chant - dasoham dasoham (i am the servant).

 

But Vivekananda used to chant Sivoham (I am that Siva). This is the second way he outlines to overcome Maya's effect. In this method we grow bigger and bigger and bigger like Siva and the net of Maya is too small or insignificant to capture us.

 

According to him, both are ways to attain mukti finally. So, my question to you is what is your final aim? Is it bhakti or mukthi?

 

For a bhakta, mukti is not needed. He is already liberated in this very same body. Bilvamangal says, mukti is standing at his doorstep waiting to execute his desires of the 4 purusharthas.

 

mukti svayam mukulithanjali sevathesman

dharmaartha kaama gathaya samaya pratheeksha

 

Abhi

 

[gHari]

The URL for glorifying Sri Caitanya is:

 

http://geocities.com/caitanyamahaprabhu

 

There is even a 46 volume biography there. He may well be the greatest Vedic scholar ever to emerge in Bharata.

[skeptic]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

According to him, both are ways to attain mukti finally. So, my question to you is what is your final aim? Is it bhakti or mukthi?

 

I'm not sure I understand the question. My understanding is that mukthi means liberation. If that's the case then isn't mukthi my final aim, as is everybody's?

[shvu]

I'm not sure I understand the question. My understanding is that mukthi means liberation. If that's the case then isn't mukthi my final aim, as is everybody's?

Everybody's, except one group known as Gaudiya Vaishnavas. According to their system, Bhakti is better than Mukti. Even if Mukti is offered to them, they will not accept it. There are many Gaudiyas here who can tell you more about this.

 

Read the first 5 verses from Chapter XII [bhakti Yoga] of the Gita. That answers your question.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 03-18-2002).]

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by shvu:

Everybody's, except one group known as Gaudiya Vaishnavas. According to their system, Bhakti is better than Mukti. Even if Mukti is offered to them, they will not accept it. There are many Gaudiyas here who can tell you more about this.

 

Read the first 5 verses from Chapter XII [bhakti Yoga] of the Gita. That answers your question.

 

Cheers

 

Yes, shvu is expert, he knows everything.

 

Sri Caithanya's followers understand that aspiring for mukti is also some kind of selfishness. A desire to keep oneself happy, and not exactly to pls the Lord who one worships.

 

If the Lord thinks that we can serve him better by remaining in this world, the devotee is happy and if the Lord feels that we can serve him in th Spiritual World by attaining liberation, then that is also acceptable to a devotee.Actually, just this is the only point which made me feel Gaudiya's are a cut above the rest.

 

As Sriman Mahaprabhu states "mama janmani janmaneeshvare bhavathat bhaktir ahaitukitvayi". Birth after birth I desire only your devotional service. He does not request for stopping my painful material birth or attaining liberation, rather he requests for a chance to serve birth after birth. This is the most appealing aspect of Gaudiyas as shvu has pointed out.

 

For mukti any other way can be adopted in full confidence - Advaita or Dwaita - anything can do and all are bonafide from the point of view of the Vedas.

 

Abhi

 

[This message has been edited by abhi_the_great (edited 03-18-2002).]

[gHari]

M U K T I

Woman: Yes. Could you give them by name, the five kinds of liberation? In English?

PrabhupAda: Yes. Yes. I'll give.

Woman: One is with the Lord, we merge, we merge...

PrabhupAda: Mergence means... The merging into the existence, this is called sAyujya-mukti. SAyujya-mukti.

Woman: No, but in English.

PrabhupAda: English, there is... SAyujya, to become one.

Woman: Yes, to become one.

PrabhupAda: SAyujya-mukti means liberation by becoming one with the Lord.

Woman: Yes. Okay. What is number two?

PrabhupAda: Yes. I'll explain. Yes.

Student: Mukti?

PrabhupAda: Mukti means liberation. Mukti means... Now we are in egoistic condition in this material body. Now, mukti means when we shall be liberated from the material existence and we shall get our spiritual life, proper. That is called mukti. Just like a person is suffering from disease, fever. Now, when he, he's out of feverish attack, he's called mukta. Rogya-mukta. Rogya-mukta means he's free from the disease. Similarly, mukti means because we are now encumbered with this material body, as soon as we become free from this material conception of life, that is called mukti. That is called brahma-bhUta. Brahma-bhUta [sB 4.30.20]. Generally, Dr. Mishra is teaching this, that you, what you think of your, what I am, I am not this body. That is the whole process of his teaching. So we have already discussed. This is same point is being discussed nicely in Bhagavad-gItA, that we are not this body. Our material identification is wrong. So we have come to that point, come to that stage, you see, that I am not this body. And because I am not this body, therefore I have no connection with this world--because my connection with this world is due to my body, is due to my body. I consider one woman my wife because I have got bodily connection. I, I consider somebody my son because bodily connection. I consider this town, this country my country because my body has grown up from this land. So in this way, as soon as one become free from the conception of identification of this body, he becomes a liberated soul. Therefore you'll find in Bhagavad-gItA in the later chapters that as soon as one emerges out from this conception, he is prasannAtmA: "Oh, I have no responsibility. I have no responsibility." Brahma-bhUtaH prasannAtmA na zocati na kAGkSati [bg. 18.54]. As soon as he is liberated... Just like a man freed from the attack of fever or any disease, when he's recovered, he finds himself happy: "Oh, now my disease is now gone. I am happy." Similarly, as soon as we come to the spiritual understanding of our existence, then our life will be joyful. That is a sign. Whether a man is freed from this material existence, mukti... Mukti can be achieved even in this life. Mukti. Mukti. It is, it is, it is a question of conviction. Now we are convinced firmly that "I am this material body. And as soon as... I gave you the other day the example of Socrates. He was convinced that "I am not this body." So he was offered poison. He gladly took it, that "What is that? I shall take it!" Because he was mukta-puruSa. It is... He is liberated soul. "Never mind. You want to kill me. Kill me. I don't mind. All right." So this liberation. This is liberation.

Now, this liberation is divided into five. There are five kinds of liberation. One of the liberation is to merge into the existence. We, we, we... Our birth was from the Supreme Absolute. Now, after liberation, we merge into the existence of the Supreme. That is called sAyujya-mukti. Now, besides this sAyujya-mukti, there are other five muktis which, we, the VaiSNava sampradAya, or the devotees, the Lord's devotees, they accept. They, they, practically, those who are pure devotees, they do not want any kind of mukti. They do not, even they are offered. They are simply after the service of the Lord. They are prepared to suffer any kind of suffering. They are not affected by all those sufferings. What they want? Pure devotees? They want that "I must serve the Supreme Lord." That is their mission. So anyway, these bhaktas, or the devotees of the Lord, for them there are other four kinds of mukti. And what is that? This is sAyujya-mukti, to become one with the... Now, there is... Then sArUpya, sArUpya-mukti. SArUpya-mukti means the spiritual body becomes as... The features of the spiritual body becomes just like the Supreme Lord. Just like NArAyaNa. NArAyaNa has got four hands with zaGkha, cakra, gadA, padma, and with the lotus flower, conchshell, club and wheel. So, so everyone who takes that sArUpya-mukti just become just like the... His feature of the body become just like the Lord. That is called sArUpya-mukti.

Woman: That is S, A, R, U...

PrabhupAda: S, A, R, U, P, Y, A. SArUpya. Yes. SArUpya. This is called sArUpya-mukti. And...

Woman: Mukti, or mukhi?

PrabhupAda: Mukti, yes.

Woman: And three?

PrabhupAda: And three... The two I have explained, sAyujya and sArUpya. Then sAlokya. SAlokya. SAlokya means you can, one can, get habitation, residence, in the same planet where God is there. That is sAlokya. And then the next is sArSTi. SArSTi. S, A, R, S, T, I, sArSTi. SArSTi means to get the same opulence. As I have already explained, opulence, he, he gets all the opulences as the Lord has got. He becomes so..., as good as Lord, becomes so powerful. This is called sArSTi. And, and the last is sAmIpya. SAmIpya means he is always in the company of the Lord. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is always... Whenever Lord takes His incarnation, Arjuna is there. Arjuna is there. SAmIpya. They are never separated. Just like a husband and wife, never separated. You see. Or the father and the son. Of course, nowadays the question is different, but generally, the family members, they all remain together. SAmIpya. And the father and the boys and wife and..., they remain together. So there is sAmIpya-mukti. SAmIpya-mukti means to remain always as associate of the Lord. That is sAmIpya-mukti.

So these five kinds of muktis are there, and the, the purport is that even after liberation, we, the living entities, they keep their individuality. Just like as associate of the Lord, as the resident of the Lord's planet or to have the bodily features of the Lord, in so many ways. And one can merge into the existence of the Lord. That is also accepted. So simply merging into the existence of God, that is not the only liberation. That is one of the liberation. But the, the devotees of the Lord, they do not accept such kind of... They do not want to merge. They want to enjoy the company. That is the difference between... Both of them become liberated. Merging into the existence of God, that is also liberation. And to keep individuality and enjoy the company of the Lord, that is also liberation. Yes?

 

 

[skeptic]

Nice job, gHari. That quote fits right into what we were discussing. I now understand more what Abhi meant when he asked me whether it would be bhakti or mukti. Thanks.

[Tarun]

KaniSTha-bhaktas still have some impersonalism remaining "in their veins", so to speak.

Ergo, they cannot offer proper respect to other vaiSNavas outside their club, group, sect, branch.

They don't see KRSNa in everyone, only a select few.

They worship 'Limited KRSNa', 'Non-pervading ViSNu'.

ZrIla BhaktisiddhAnta Sarasvati ThAkur warned,

"Until we totally defeat mAyAvAdi philosophy = impersonalism, KRSNa-prema, Love of God cannot be attained."

[beemasane]

any way to kinda hustle things up a little bit for "that" day to get here before the big black snake get sme?