Just say NO to INITIATIONS...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

 

Please accept my humble obeisances

 

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

 

I have edited this post to reflect a spirit of cooperation with Devotees who's life it is [and has been for many years] to serve Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON.

 

OF course I do not think that everyone is taking initiation cheaply!

 

I decided to leave the last point I made in the original post.

 

If we focus only on service and preaching -- and leave off the rest to some distant future -- do we desire the big success -- or the status quo?!

 

Your Servant,

 

Bhakta don

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Bhakta Don Muntean (edited 03-30-2002).]

[beemasane]

dear Bhakta Don, one thing that is very clear is that you are very upset. no one should laugh at you because the subject matter is a very serious affair. i do not wish to deal with that subject matter right now. at times some things we would love to change cannot be changed right now just like that. the most important thing now is that you take care of your own self for a bit. the reasons you are upset, if you look at vedic history, are not new things. i am not a big time pandit but i do know a few simple and practical things to really help you, #1. not a blade of grass moves without krishna having something to say about it: KRISHNA is in control!#2. Prabhupada will help you. what i am going to say is proof positive to help you: if you pick up your bead bag and you channel all of this powerful saddness you have-do not try cancel it out in some awful way- but if you take this powerful emotion and while you are chanting, you can pray to Prabhupada and He will help you...He will help you...He will help you. it might not be the help YOU think you need, but he will help you...don't you worry so much about Mahaprabhu's movement for say a month or two, it will still be there when you get back from a very nice place, just chant and pray (and read of course) you WILL FEEL PPRABHUPADA"S MERCY! #3 be with devotees right now that LOVE you. do not mix with those you know you will fight with..again, they to will be there when you come back from that very nice place. also take a vacation from association from karmis for at least a week or two if you are a book distributor: just read those books for two weeks and be only with people who love you. i am a nobody devotee, but i know Prabhupada will help you Don. you do this for yourself right now please. the whole goal, of this is to help you and help you not make unintentional offences in your anguish,however, you can laugh at me for my simple plan if you want, it will be ok, i'll laugh too because i am such a simppleton Prabhu and also when you come back from that very nice place then we will both laugh a whole lot at how funny things can be. Good luck don. Hare Krishna. Jaya Prabhupada.

[bhaktajoy]

Very nice to see you here Bhakta Don Prabhu.Yes you're right,our focus should be preaching.Innocent public haven't even got a clue of spiritual world and the power of unconditional love.Hare Krishna!God bless you.

Joy

[Gauracandra]

I understand what you're saying Bhakta Don. I believe it was Ronald Reagan who used to say (and he may have taken it from someone else): "There is no amount of good that can't be accomplished if we simply don't care who takes the credit." I think thats it. Basically, if we all just work together we can move mountains.

[beemasane]

yay for Bhakta Don...these two empowered and very expert devotees love you...lucky you!

[bhaktajoy]

Hare Krishna Prabhu Beemasane!All glories to jagat guru Srila Prabhupada!

 

ummm..well,I am just curious...Isn't Srila Prabhupada still living in his books and in spirit form?If we sincerely read his books and keep talking to him in prayers...in my humble opinion I am sure he will accept us.A sincere heart and some love is needed.

 

Please forgive me for any offenses.I am new to Bhakti Yoga...I am an Indian so my background really got me going.Please advice.I am a most fallen soul,glad I came to know you...kindly place me as an atom on your lotus feet.God bless you.

 

JAI RADHE!

Love,Joy

 

 

[beemasane]

Hari Bol BhaktaJoy. yes Prabhupada is alive? where have i said He is not. He is also there when you are chanting and praying...please re- read what i said to Bhakta Don about my directly saying Prabhupada will help you if you pray to Him. if you please think i am saying otherwise, oh boy, please, you point it out to me right now. i will not be able to get back to you right now, but in 4 or so hours i will respond here at this thread. i remain your humble servant...beemasane.

[Citta Hari]

Bhakta Don's idea is a bit misplaced, in my opinion. We would do better to understand what initiation is rather than not be initiated. Just because some don't live up to the vows taken in initiation does not mean that initiation is the problem. The problem is a lack of sadhu sanga, without which one cannot properly understand what diksa is and thus cannot take advantage of it. And to focus on service and preaching will be of little use without the guidance of a realized soul who shows us how to do these things and, more important, the implications these things have in awakening our inner life. Sadhu sanga is the primary cause of our spiritual growth. We can chant lakhs of names and do lots of service, but if we are not doing so under the guidance of a sadhu it will have little effect, or could even cause us to regress due to offenses caused out of ignorance.

 

There are some other points I'd like to address as well:

 

Quote:

"However, being in a time of extrodinary circumstances -- we have to make adjustments -- we could accept that for right now initiations cannot be our focus."

 

Adjustments according to time and circumstance are required, yes, but such things are to be left to those with the spiritual power to do so. And those in our sampradaya who have demonstrated such power have never postponed initiation as Don proposes, and, I suspect, will not do so any time soon.

 

Quote:

"We could understand that preaching is our focus."

 

Our focus is (or should be) to become lovers of God. Preaching is the overflow of that love.

 

Quote:

"What is initiation? Is it so one can go home back to Godhead? Well if we are preachers -- we don't really want to return home anyway -- we want to stay here and preach for Srila Prabhupada and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu."

 

Initiation means that a person who has real standing in the spiritual plane shares his or her faith with us. The cultivation of that faith is the business of the practitioner and involves learning how to please Krsna. And he derives the highest pleasure from service rendered to him in his lila. We cannot enter there unless we take initiation from a person who possesses the feeling we are interested in which ultimately grants us entrance into the lila. Initiation is all about entering the lila.

 

Quote:

"Thus it should not be so difficult to leave off this whole initiation matter for somewhere in future generations."

 

It looks to me like this statement presupposes that there are no genuine sadhus present to take initiation from. This is not the case. Sadhus are present at all times. There may not be many of them, but they are present. According to the inner necessity of the seeker, fitting guidance appears.

 

Quote:

"Let's just try to be devotees -- no one can be 'leader' -- we all must have a servant mentality."

 

No doubt, but a real sadhu is a natural leader. One who is mature in devotion is competent to initiate, and initiation from a sadhu is a step in becoming a devotee. Instilling the serving attitude within us is precisely what the sadhu is all about.

 

-Citta Hari dasa

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Citta Hari (edited 03-24-2002).]

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by Citta Hari:

Bhakta Don's idea is a bit misplaced, in my opinion. We would do better to understand what initiation is rather than not be initiated. Just because some don't live up to the vows taken in initiation does not mean that initiation is the problem. The problem is a lack of sadhu sanga, without which one cannot properly understand what diksa is and thus cannot take advantage of it. And to focus on service and preaching will be of little use without the guidance of a realized soul who shows us how to do these things and, more important, the implications these things have in awakening our inner life. Sadhu sanga is the primary cause of our spiritual growth. We can chant lakhs of names and do lots of service, but if we are not doing so under the guidance of a sadhu it will have little effect, or could even cause us to regress due to offenses caused out of ignorance.

 

Well written Citta Hari. Appreciate your thoughts.

 

My personal experience is that I get an impetus to preach only when I see my Guru Maharaj. And my GM (HH Jayapataka Swami) tells me to read more and more abt Srila Prabhupad whenever I ask HH what I shd read.

 

Only bcos of HH my love for SP has grown, to whatever little extent. In my spiritual life diksha has played a very important role. This is my personal experience.

 

Once I had a dream, that SP was walking towards his asan to give a Srimad Bhagavatham class in some temple hall. HDG walked by me, where I was sitting. HDG's lotus feet was just next to me, when I thought, "this is a golden chance, the ultimate opportunity, I cannot miss this for all my life". In my dream, without any second thoughts, I just grabbed those shining golden lotus feet of HDG, my hearts bouncing from stomach to neck and eyes full of tears and trembling hands. I just bowed down.

 

HDG walked past as if nothing ever happened and ascended the simhasan. Once HDG was seated comfortably he glanced down at me in a compassionate way, and gave a broad grin - one of complete approval and nodded, again in approval. I know that many devotees say that you shd not touch a Vasihnavas feet without his consent, so I had a guilty feeling. But SP removed all those guilt by his simple and elegant gestures.

 

Bolo Srila Prabhupad ki------- JAI!!

 

Dear Don, your feelings are genuine. I can see them in your words. There is a problem and we do not want to act as if there is no problem. There are different ways to redress issues within ISKCON, I am sure.

 

You shd bring these issues to a senior person whom you can trust and try to resolve it. If we raise the issues in a open forum, we might not get the problem fixed but rather get more problems. In open forums you can find the most immature person like me to the most bonafide person. And it wd be difficult to reach a solution here.

 

Pls pursue the issues and also pray to SP. We do not want more devotees to suffer like you, in this mood of service let us pursue the issue seriously till we get a concrete solution. Associating with devotees of similar wavelength is the most thrilling experience, they make you feel very nice, like my uncle, beemsane prabhu.

 

Hare Krishna

abhi

[abhi_the_great]

Sorry, posted by mistake.

abhi

 

[This message has been edited by abhi_the_great (edited 03-24-2002).]

[bhaktajoy]

Originally posted by beemasane:

yay for Bhakta Don...these two empowered and very expert devotees love you...lucky you!

Dear Beemasane,

We love you too

 

God bless

 

 

[beemasane]

yippee! oops,i mean Hare Krishna BhaktaJoy! all glories to you and all of Guru and Gauranga's wonderful devotees! beamingSANE, sez to Bhakta Don, " look what you're doing do BhaktaJoy...see? Prabhpada is already at work with the love bombs....ain't it COOL?!!!"

[beemasane]

dear BhaktaJoy, as i am reading your "love" post i am realizing that as i have no compunction about taking spiritual instructions from qualified siksa, i am finding it indeed fortunate for me that it is i who wish to be a particle of a particle of dust at your lotus feet for instruction...if you are only 18, we cannot help that...sorry. but as i am nothing but a bhakta with a heart of stone and am basically a madman for Krishna, it is you soft hearted devotees that i that for some strange reason i am attracted to...all i have ever done with my life is fight, fight, fight! and now one of my other Gurus has told me to take the strength of beemasane inside and fight and then what do i find when i do this...you, an 18 year old who is light years beyond my pathetic aropa siddha bhakti, oh i think You and those like you will teach me much about love of Krishna. Jaya Jaya Shree Radhe, Jaya Jaya Shree Radhe. all glories to the soft hearted devotees of Shree Radhika!

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by beemasane:

i am nothing but a bhakta with a heart of stone

Because you remember me as a nice guy, and have said so publicly, I'm kind of on the spot: I guess it would be awkward to charge a license fee on the claim of stoneheartedness. ;-)

 

I agree with Citta Hari that we should understand that the problem is not that there's no one fit to initiate, but that many devotees may not have met those fit to initiate them--yet. Ultimately, this is all arranged by Krishna. There's a story, unfortunately buried too deep in my memory, of one of our acharyas who kept barely missing associating with Mahaprabhu, Nitai, Gadadhara, Rupa, etc. Ultimately, I believe, he was able to connect with Jiva Goswami. (Can someone help me here? I'm a great example of how much can become buried by professional aspirations.) We also see the Lord making the arrangement for Dhruva to meet Narada.

 

Babhru

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-27-2002).]

[beemasane]

oh golly another legal entanglement! i'm really sorry in between the laughter here, hows abouts we have me make a public amendment here " i am nothing but a devotee with a heart of igneous gneiss." ???? hi Babru, from b.d. (sheesh, i still hope you "da" nice guy still. regarding your quest of story origin, i do remember it but not name and same for the biz aspirations beclouding tattva...me three! hari bol!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Please note that my Original post in this string has been edited.

 

I noted the one post of that one devotee who is inspired to preach -- when he sees his Guru Maharaja -- Jayapataka Swami -- this devotee was concerned for me that I was angry or something and that is not true -- I was expressing that there are very strained relations growing between Vaishnavas -- and we all must work on that.

 

I thank everyone for their concerns....

 

My situation is really not important.

 

Your Servant,

 

Bhakta don

 

[This message has been edited by Bhakta Don Muntean (edited 03-31-2002).]

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Testing testing -- does the string move up?

 

Oh it does!

 

[This message has been edited by Bhakta Don Muntean (edited 03-31-2002).]

[theist]

Fellow seekers,

 

Real initiation is always available to us as this quote from SP shows.

 

"The Lord is within every livng entity as the Supersoul, and He initiated Brahma because Brahma was willing to receive the initiation.The Lord can similarily initiate everyone who is inclined to have it."SB 2.9.7 purport

Our Guru could not be closer.

 

your ally,

[gHari]

The rest of Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.7 paints a slightly different picture:

<center>nizamya tad-vaktR-didRkSayA dizo

vilokya tatrAnyad apazyamAnaH

svadhiSNyam AsthAya vimRzya tad-dhitaM

tapasy upAdiSTa ivAdadhe manaH

</center>

nizamya--after hearing; tat--that; vaktR--the speaker; didRkSayA--just to find out who spoke; dizaH--all sides; vilokya--seeing; tatra--there; anyat--any other; apazyamAnaH--not to be found; svadhiSNyam--on his lotus seat; AsthAya--sit down; vimRzya--thinking; tat--it; hitam--welfare; tapasi--in penance; upAdiSTaH--as he was instructed; iva--in pursuance of; Adadhe--gave; manaH--attention.

 

When he heard the sound, he tried to find the speaker, searching on all sides. But when he was unable to find anyone besides himself, he thought it wise to sit down on his lotus seat firmly and give his attention to the execution of penance, as he was instructed.

 

PURPORT

To achieve success in life, one should follow the example of Lord BrahmA, the first living creature in the beginning of creation. After being initiated by the Supreme Lord to execute tapasya, he was fixed in his determination to do it, and although he could not find anyone besides himself, he could rightly understand that the sound was transmitted by the Lord Himself. BrahmA was the only living being at that time because there was no other creation and none could be found there except himself. In the beginning of the First Canto, in the First Chapter, first verse, of the SrImad-BhAgavatam, it has already been mentioned that BrahmA was initiated by the Lord from within. The Lord is within every living entity as the Supersoul, and He initiated BrahmA because BrahmA was willing to receive the initiation. The Lord can similarly initiate everyone who is inclined to have it.

 

As already stated, BrahmA is the original spiritual master for the universe, and since he was initiated by the Lord Himself, the message of SrImad-BhAgavatam is coming down by disciplic succession, and in order to receive the real message of SrImad-BhAgavatam one should approach the current link, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession. After being initiated by the proper spiritual master in that chain of succession, one should engage himself in the discharge of tapasya in the execution of devotional service. One should not, however, think himself on the level of BrahmA to be initiated directly by the Lord from inside because in the present age no one can be accepted to be as pure as BrahmA. The post of BrahmA to officiate in the creation of the universe is offered to the most pure living being, and unless one is so qualified one cannot expect to be treated like BrahmAjI directly. But one can have the same facility through unalloyed devotees of the Lord, through scriptural instructions (as revealed in the Bhagavad-gItA and SrImad-BhAgavatam especially), and also through the bona fide spiritual master available to the sincere soul. The Lord Himself appears as the spiritual master to a person who is sincere in heart about serving the Lord. Therefore the bona fide spiritual master who happens to meet the sincere devotee should be accepted as the most confidential and beloved representative of the Lord. If a person is posted under the guidance of such a bona fide spiritual master, it may be accepted without any doubt that the desiring person has achieved the grace of the Lord.

 

[theist]

gHari,

 

It appears like a contradiction to me.Perhaps you can help me understand it.

 

Does someone really have to be a pure soul just to be willing to accept rebirth?

 

It just appears as if one statement nullifies the other.

 

Thanks

[gHari]

Theist, I'm afraid I don't understand the question (pure soul? - rebirth?).

[theist]

gHari,

 

Thanks for responding.I should have been more clear.

 

In the section of the purport that you have made bold it says "...no one can be accepted as pure as Bramha..."I was refering to that, when I said pure soul.

 

By rebirth I meant twice born,spiritual birth.

 

I should also say I'm not trying to infer that we should neglect the presence of Supersoul as He appears as guru externally.

 

I see Supersoul,in one sense, as the only initiator.Whether through His devotee or directly from within.

 

I have similar questions regarding CC Madhya 15.106-111.

 

your ally,

theist

[Guest guest]

Since I missed your original unedited post, I'm not sure what you mean by the thread title. Initiation is certainly very important. Why say no to it?

 

 

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

 

I have edited this post to reflect a spirit of cooperation with Devotees who's life it is [and has been for many years] to serve Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON.

 

OF course I do not think that everyone is taking initiation cheaply!

 

I decided to leave the last point I made in the original post.

 

If we focus only on service and preaching -- and leave off the rest to some distant future -- do we desire the big success -- or the status quo?!

 

Your Servant,

 

Bhakta don

 

[This message has been edited by Bhakta Don Muntean (edited 03-30-2002).]

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Since I missed your original unedited post, I'm not sure what you mean by the thread title. Initiation is certainly very important. Why say no to it?

The point is quite simple and easy to ascertain from the postings.

 

Initiations have become cheap over the years - there is now more focus on that - rather than on 'advancing' - in many ways - it is a problem now too due to all of the gurus who have fallen - so also - because of the issue that the ISKCON community - has enough outside pressures trying to bring it down - that any inside pressure - like this ritvik issue - must be averted - in that sense - I meant that we have to leave it off for a future generation to sort through - of course - initiations are important - but so too is the personal and collective survival of ISKCON's institution of KC and - of course faith - too many have lost and shall lose - their faith on this issue...

[Guest guest]

Chapter 6: How to Discharge Devotional Service

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Nectar of Devotion

 

These ten items are preliminary necessities for beginning the discharge of devotional service in regulative principles. In the beginning, if a neophyte devotee observes the above-mentioned ten principles, surely he will quickly make good advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

The next set of instructions is listed as follows: (1) One should rigidly give up the company of nondevotees. (2) One should not instruct a person who is not desirous of accepting devotional service. (3) One should not be very enthusiastic about constructing costly temples or monasteries. (4) One should not try to read too many books, nor should one develop the idea of earning his livelihood by lecturing on or professionally reciting Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or Bhagavad-gītā. (5) One should not be neglectful in ordinary dealings. (6) One should not be under the spell of lamentation in loss or jubilation in gain. (7) One should not disrespect the demigods. (8) One should not give unnecessary trouble to any living entity. (9) One should carefully avoid the various offenses in chanting the holy name of the Lord or in worshiping the Deity in the temple. (10) One should be very intolerant toward the blasphemy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, or His devotees.

 

Without following the above-mentioned ten principles, one cannot properly elevate himself to the platform of sādhana-bhakti, or devotional service in practice. Altogether, Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī mentions twenty items, and all of them are very important. Out of the twenty, the first three — namely accepting the shelter of a bona fide spiritual master, taking initiation from him and serving him with respect and reverence — are the most important.

 

===================================

 

Someone may wish to argue the point that Srila Prabhupada has set up a ritvik system whereby a disciple can be initiated after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada. People can think like that - people can think "I am Napoleon" too. Everyone is free to think what they want.

 

But clearly in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu (Nectar of Devotion) Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī gave a system of devotional practice wherein a newcomer approaches a Guru, takes initiation, and serves the Lord under the direction of a Guru.

 

ISKCON's real problem is that there are too many so-called Gurus and no visible, living, breathing, walking, talking Uttama Adhikari Vaisnavas within ISKCON.