Who is Srila Prabhupada?

[Jagat]

I find it interesting that knowing Prabhupada's siddha-svarupa doesn't seem to matter to people very much.

 

In Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, gurus generally revealed this to their disciples so that they could remember them in their meditation on the lila. This allowed disciples to cultivate their service in the nitya-lila.

 

We thus know Rupa, Raghunath, Narottam, Vishwanath, Bhaktivinoda and Siddhanta Saraswati's identities as manjaris, which is the traditional svarupa for Gaudiya Vaishnavas who worship in the madhura-rasa.

 

The very fact that Prabhupada chose NOT to reveal this seems to confirm the perception in certain circles that his teaching was not complete. Narayan Maharaj is taking advantage of this and many Prabhupada disciples seem to feel that he is filling a void.

 

I find all this quite interesting.

 

Jagat

[beemasane]

dear Jagat Prabhu. i think you have pointed out a very interesting point. i was getting there in my own sweet time...indeed the next thread was going to be "why did Prabhupada not reveal? " i am asking this question who is Prabhupada to see if there was anybody who Prabhupada had revealed to...i have been asking a whole lot of people as a matter of fact...i feel that it is time every body stopped for a little bit and give this matter grave unified consideration. i am only doing my small part here at Audarya in the kindest and hopefully most civil and respectful way i can muster. i think that for all interested people to examine guru tattva with relevance to siksa in an open forum with civility is so important right now. this seems to me to be an very historic chapter of our Mahaprabhu tree. if nothing else simply stand back and fols hands because i see the possibility for earth shaking offences when even dicussing not only Vaisnavas of the caliber of Narayana Maharaja, but also the Sridhar line and also Puri Maharaja line to name just a few. i have friendly Godbrothers in each line and i love them all. i have to go for now because of my dang family obligations but i am happy to talk with you more as i nkow you are a knowldge able pandit. there will be many people listening to you and you will have a big responsibility i think. one thing i want to say before i go tho'. i have always said two things that i know somewhere must be shastra..i am a practical pandit, i understand these complicated issues and things because i have been around and i read a lot...i am not a true pandit braminical brahmin etc. those two things sre this: 1. you cannot legislate love with regard to a guru and his disciple 2. there will be people in any camp that make it look bad. gosh i want to stay but i have yo go darnit and i will be back tho. i want to know who my guru is.

[leyh]

Originally posted by beemasane:

leyh i have been reading your posts and as far as i can tell of when Prabhupada was here he would be very kind to you even if you say you are struggling. everything is there in the name and i am in too much hurry to get my favorite sloka i say every morning but cant even remember..but it says everything is there and makes everything easier too and sooner or later your already sterling qualities are going to shine like the sun. there is some shame? take that and cry with your bead bag and you will get powerful results. in early days Prabhupada came upon Syamasundara and he had his cigarrettes on top of Lord Jagganatha! they were carving out of redwqood ties(MUkunda told me of railroad ties) and what did Prabhupada say...to para phrase... very kindly please take maybe one less per day...he not kick him out of temple. we all have anarthas and you should see what it says in the Bhaktirasamrita sindhu bindhu about the 5 point gradual process where anarthas dont even go until you are REALLY advanced. i am seeing how people are everywhere too hard care. you have a soft heart and Radharani likes soft hearts not some former heavy like me you are one of the biggest inspirations to me on this computer stuff. because of what you say on your "kanti mala" thread i did not make my own thread just to honor you. it is your name that started all the wonderful association with you and Gaurahari i mean gHari. you inspire people! go for it and we will not say any bad things just praise all Vaisnavs. why do i always say this because i was one of the WORST critical fighting... even devotess, but not any more. hari bol! i am soorry for the bad typing and all but i want you to here this right now before i cook dinner.

 

[This message has been edited by beemasane (edited 03-25-2002).]

beemasane Prabhu:

 

Thank you so much for your words of encouragement.It is good that you have turned from a "fighting devotee" to a "praising devotee." Surely this must be by the mercy of Krsna and Srila Prabhupada!

 

 

[beemasane]

oh boy. i begged for a reprieve from my two computer hungry boys so i can come back now for a bit. i am sorry for the typing and grammatical errors, i am not a typist and it is very hard for me especially when i want to go fast. i do know that these affairs of which we speak have to be handled with as much love for each other as Vaisnavas as well as the siddhanta panditry. the minute one becomes more than the other all is lost. i will not argue with you as to whether any one of these camps is right. they are all so much more advanced than me i can only acknowledge them all. i will tell you this tho about myself, if i find that any of the gurus who i have spoken about or their reps. will have any knowledge of how to complete the teachings of Srila Prabhupada as you have spoken the possibility of i can assure here in front of all that i will be there on the next flight to their neraest location. and i have done this before on several occasions an taken fine solace and comfort from friendly gurus and theirdisciples of every camp you have mentioned. i am a practical pandit, i am not in this game for the "geeyawn", the pratistha OR the argument for the argumant's sake. i want to know who my guru is and if i have to surrender at any of these fine gurus feet i for one will hesitate for not one minute with ABSOLUTELY NO WORRY of ANY diminishing of my very fierce loyalty to Prabhpada. i havent done all that good on my own finding out who Prabhupada is anyway what about the rest of you? anybody else KNOW who is Prabhupada...i'll surrender at YOUR lotus feet if i have to."come on back now good buddies...this is delta mango squad lieutenant Sonic Boomer-Sane hopin' there aint no bogies at two o'clock cause i dont need no friendly fire. over....for now Jagat is right isnt any body kind of wondering about all this...sheesh!

[beemasane]

when the devotees were in hyderabad i managed to get up on the stage with the big boys right up in front of Prabhupada...oh yeah! as well as the compassion i have been so nicely describing to Kishan in previous posts...here Prabhupada was stern with VERY firey eyes. i am compelled to tell you this now 'cause good old Jagat has got me ALLLLLL blissed out... yes i am rubbing my hands and chortling with the ecstasy of absorbtion uh-huh! any ways when Prabhupada stood up to leave i wouldnt turn arund to go... i just wanted to look at Him until the last possible moment i HAD to get off of that stage. well everybody was walking off and as i'm looking right into Prabhupadas eyes he gives me one ferocious look and i see he is wagging his rather formidable cane at a song book that SOMEONE ELSE had left on the stage floor! at the time, being relatively scared stiff, i really didnt see that this was the time to LOGICALLY explain "I didnt leave it there !" i dove for that book as if it were life itself. and he didnt smile back, He just looked grave. so if we are ever at a Bhagawatam class, you better be ready to get the sauce from me if i see your book left on the floor! LOGICALLY it would be best!

[beemasane]

hey leyh..i am now sitting with little "Sakhi di di" she is the little coketiel birdy that my family likes me to hold because i have to be so careful with this living entity thast is so frgile...you know i've seen a lot of pictures with the Gopi parrots too... she is a mirror of emotions, little Sakhi... so she just flew over to let me see how i am doing right now...aint it cool. all glories to the mellow softhearted devotees like leyh that will ever be so inspiring to me when i am fully ready to ROCK! (oh yeah and all the others to!)

[beemasane]

dear Jagat Prabhu, i have read your postings and i think you are a very powerful person. all will watch what very nicely educated people such as yourself will say. You have a grave responsibility...i respect your opinion and your right to have them always. i personally will not fight anybody devotee anymore because when i am not glorifying vaisnavas i am absorbed in my particular way, which funny like may not be that much different..in any case, i am looking to you for learning also because you like all other Vaisnavs are indeed more qualifeied than i am. and if i am ever out on harinam sankirtan and i am seeing you in danger, oh i promise you...THEN you will see me fight PRaBhU! fight FOR you! all Glories to Jagat Prabhu...senior Vaisnava! hooray! and Hare Krishna!

[gHari]

Suka-Beem,

 

This is only a rumor via the internet; I have been unable to find it from any other source. And we all know how we tend to blow these rumors completely out of proportion.

 

But I heard that once when someone asked about Prabhupada's eternal identity, he said "If I told you, you wouldn't believe it." I also have seen it on the internet that he said that many of his disciples did not know that he was their master.

 

gHari

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 03-27-2002).]

[skeptic]

Prabhupada has definitely got to be one of the most influential persons of the 20th century. His accomplishments were outstanding and remarkable. I wonder if it's all going to get bigger or his popularity will diminish over time. Is he truly one of the Greats? I tend to think so. But time will tell. Funny thing is, the inportant thing isn't supposed to be Prabhupada. It's supposed to be Krishna.

[Gauracandra]

Personally I think its best not to speculate about Srila Prabhupada's eternal identity. Because all we have is our own mental speculation.

[beemasane]

my dear Gauracandra. i absoluely couldn't agree with you more...mental speculation has nothing to do with the quest of finding Srila Prabhupada's siddha svarupa. this is something that cannot be obtained cheaply. it will take all the time necesary for one to be qualified for this. okay. here is the hypothetical scenario: let's say some superior Vaisnava says he knows and you have to do this that and whatever. i for one am ready to do whatever it takes with the full understading at least, that i might not even be able to achieve the required spiritual credentials to do so in this life...is this going to stop me from starting right now to inquire and practise? absolutely not. this is the spirit that i am going to take on this matter. and my ohman i gotta go take kids to scoll....dang! i'll be back soon. beemasane the taxi walla...i wont cheat my kids tho' all they will pay is with nam. haribol

[leyh]

Funny thing is, the inportant thing isn't supposed to be Prabhupada. It's supposed to be Krishna.

Hi Skeptic:

 

I think that Krsna would disagree that the important thing is supposed to be Him and not Prabhupada.In the Adi Purana,Krsna Himself tells Arjuna: "My dear Partha,one who claims to be My devotee is not so.Only a person who claims to be the devotee of My devotee is actually My devotee."

 

Lord Siva says in the Padma Purana : "My dear Parvati,there are different methods of worship, and out of all such methods the worship of the Supreme Person is considered the highest. But even higher than the worship of the Lord is the worship of the Lord's devotees."

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 03-27-2002).]

[Jagat]

Audaryaji,

 

The weakness with this position is that it opens the doors to mental speculation, as someone else pointed out. Prabhupada revealed himself to me as Subala Sakha; Prabhupada is a Manjari; Prabhupada is Nityananda Shakti, Jahnava tattva. I could go on, but you get the point.

 

"The important thing is Krishna."

 

I agree with this point. However, it seems that the real unifying point for Gaudiyas was always Mahaprabhu. During the Goswami period, there appears to have been quite a bit of harmony between the different Radha-Krishna sampradayas, but this camaraderie broke down at some point.

 

I have not been able to pinpoint the exact source of tension, but by Krishna Das Kaviraj's time it appears to have been solidly established. The incarnation of Mahaprabhu is the central issue, but there are others.

 

Anyway, the point is that guru distinctions tend to separate rather than unite. Up until Saraswati, the Gaudiya sampradaya was pretty tolerant of varieties within the general category of faith in Mahaprabhu.

 

Haribol, Bhimasenaji. You are too kind and the operative word is "too".

[beemasane]

Dear Audarya Lila Prabhu. Please accept my humble obeisances and all glories to his Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktiventa Swami Prabhupada. i am perfectly content with the conclusion you have stated in your letter...Prabhupada has given his disciples everything. if you will kindly refer to my posting upon this thread dated 3/26/02 addressed to Jagat i had commented upon his statement where he was addressing the the possibility of incomplete teachings...i am currently in the process of discussing this matter with a number of my senior godbrothers in a most sober and as humble way as i can. i am also availing myself of the archchives of the Audarya Fellowship to add to my knowledge of the concept of "completeness" as i will henceforth refer to it as unless a better and more respectful nomenclature is rightly insisted. i am very thankful that you have taken your valuable time to give me this well taken instuction with regards to the Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Line. i can assure you that i am well aware of the fact that higher processes begin after the nistha level has been obtained and the subsequent levels of Bhakti following. i can even more safely assure that i am not at that level. However, when Senior Senior Vaisnavas make statements RE.VNN article "Nikunjo...etc. it behooves me to inquire. if some of us need a little "kick in the pants" by a senior Vaisnava as a possible qualified "siksa type of informal advice" to help us jump start a little ruci, i have been investigating this matter...i seem to be taking advice this way from you right now don't i? If because of the sometimes "goofy" nature of my possibly misdirected attempts at being friendly have possibly led you to the conclusion that i am thinking that my "sentiment" of wanting to know the nitya svarupa of my Guru, Srila Prabhpada is going to be achieved "cheaply" and i am not "serious", once again i will refer you back to a statement in the previous post that i am willing to accept this will not even possibly happen in this lifetime and i have to start somewhere. well, i am starting and will keep starting and asking any question i have to any number of qualified Vaisnava authorities, you, i am also sure, being one of them. i hope i have made no offence here, none was intended. i will respect and carefully consider any future advice as my good fortune. Very Sincerely yours, b.d

 

[This message has been edited by beemasane (edited 03-27-2002).]

[beemasane]

Dear Jagat Prabhu, i would like to inform you that i would consider it my misfortune if you do not notify me of the results of your "pin-point-point" historical "goswami time" of a breakdown of harmony, when you feel this,your much needed research, is complete. i am in your debt for your salient point regarding the possibility of speculation creeping in also. i am trying to remember which posting i was reading yesterday in the Audarya files concerning the lineage of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's legacy and its division into what i believe i remember is a split into a number of camps regarding this siddha pranali siddhanta we are discussing. i would welcome it if you or anyone else for that matter can direct me to that posting if you know where it is. until that time or sooner actually, i hope, i remain your indebted "senior-siksa kick in the you know what type" disciple...beemasane...hey hey we're the Vaisnavas, we're to busy chanting and relishing siddhanta and glorifying Vaisnavas,to put anybody downnnnnnnnnn.

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by Jagat:

"The important thing is Krishna."

 

I agree with this point. However, it seems that the real unifying point for Gaudiyas was always Mahaprabhu. During the Goswami period, there appears to have been quite a bit of harmony between the different Radha-Krishna sampradayas, but this camaraderie broke down at some point.

 

I have not been able to pinpoint the exact source of tension, but by Krishna Das Kaviraj's time it appears to have been solidly established. The incarnation of Mahaprabhu is the central issue, but there are others.

I had some lengthy discussion with a pusti-marg teacher some years ago. Without getting into too much detail, the falling out between the gaudiyas and the Vallabhas seems to have occurred shortly after Mahaprabhu's disappearance. For some time they worshiped Gopal together. The Vallabhas became incensed that the gaudiyas wanted to worship Srimati Radharani with Gopal; they felt, apparently, that Bengalis were inveterate shaktas. The tension between these two groups was reflected in, and perhaps exacerbated by, Krishna das' account of Vallbacharya's encounters with Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers.

 

Babhru das

 

 

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by beemasane:

hey hey we're the Vaisnavas, we're to busy chanting and relishing siddhanta and glorifying Vaisnavas,to put anybody downnnnnnnnnn.

We're just tryin' to be happy

By chanting the holy names.

So come on and join in our kirtan,

And give up your silly games!

 

 

[Audarya lila]

Dear Beemasane,

 

I did not mean my comments as a personal affront to you or anyone else. I was merely pointing out that Srila Prabhupada faithfully followed his Guru Maharaja in this line and he often answered questions regarding the higher section with an answer such as, 'why don't you go there and find out'.

 

If we are not on an advanced level in terms of our practice and realization how will information regarding the eternal identity of Srila Prabhupada help us?

 

I agree with Jagat that some will speculate and some may misrepresent, and if we don't know, we will not be able to ascertain what is the truth of the matter. Is it a bluff or does someone have actual realization?

 

My point is that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta did not encourage speculation of this type, in fact his whole emphasis was placed on chanting offenselessly and serving Sri Guru. The thrust of his preaching was to follow closely this program and progress properly through the various stages. When we are advanced enough Krnsa will reveal what we need to know. He placed his emphasis on revelation and that the revelation will come when the adhikara is there for it.

 

Jagat is right that this stance was at odds with many within the Gaudiya community, but if we look closely at what he was trying to do, I personally feel that this was an important step that was necessary to reform the lineage. I know that not everyone agrees with that, but that remains my opinion. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta placed great emphasis on honesty and practice and he also placed enormous emphaisis on not jumping ahead - his conclusion being that real spiritual experience will be spoiled if one tries to reach into a plane for which he is unqualified. His thesis was that the whole thing will become mundane then.

 

The jist of my comment is really that for followers in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta this type of speculation is contrary to the entire thrust of his emphaisis and teaching. His teaching is that if you really want to know then practice with full determination and undivided attention, when your free of the contamination of matter and the anarthas that crowd the heart - then revelation will come. Until then, simply hearing someone say something will have no actual benefit.

 

When Srila Prabhupada was asked about the Nikunja yuno... stanza of Visvanatha Cakravarti this is what he had to say, "The prayers offered by Visvanatha Cakravarti to his spiritual master have a special significance. His spiritual master was one of the assistant gopis, so the prayer was offered like that. On the whole, the spiritual master is an agent of Krishna. But either he is assistant to the gopis or

assistant to the cowherds boys."

 

I also don't wish to offend anyone, but I do feel that followers of Srila Prabhupada should be true to the lineage as presented by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

[beemasane]

Dear Audarya Lila Prabhu, so are you telling me i can't talk to and ask Bodhayan Maharaja, Tripurari Maharaja, Jagat Prabhu, Babhru Prabhu, Govinda Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, my old Temple Presidents and lets not forget Puru Prabhu either, about the Bhaktisiddhanta Lineage? and for the last time i dont want to jump ahead to anywhere before i'm ready and to credit you i am a little satisfied even with your last statement concerning "Nikunjo"...and hey, to clear the air here, i have given my fair share of the Prabhupada nectar stories here, hows about you blessing us with a story...we need a break here if you don't mind my saying so. all i can say to you is never stop watching me to keep me in line... i am just a fallen rat, and am sure that your devotional career is much more spotless than min has been, but still a real senior Vaisnava has spoken and i'd like to find out more from everybody with your permission please. causal mercy interlude dedicated to Babhru Prabhu: i thot love was only true in fairy tales, then for someone else but me, then i saw his face, His Divine Grace, now i'm a believer, not a trace of doubt in my mind, i'm a believer i couldn't leave You if i tried. c'mon gimme a Prabhpada story somebody, puleeeeeze! and please forgive all my offenses as i am trying to glorify all devotees!

[beemasane]

hey Babhru Prabhu, as daffy duck once was quoted, " i'm happy, iiiiiiiiiii'm faaaaaaaaaaaaaaabulously haaaaaaapy!" and purported by porky pig:" buh-dip-buh-dip...that's all folks!" dangit where,s gHari when we need him most? leyh....leyh? ...concluded the tin man," ...if i only had a hearrrrrt".

[Audarya lila]

Dear Beemasane,

 

Glad to give it a break. No I am not telling you or anyone what to do or who to speak to. I encourage association with advanced vaishnava's. I'm not sure how you interpreted my post to mean that you can't associate with the devotees you mentioned.

 

I am a disciple of Tripurari Swami's. I have been associated with the Sankirtan movement since 1978. I try my best to share my thoughts and feelings and to represent my Guru Maharaja on the internet to the best of my ability.

 

I wasn't pointing a finger at you or anyone. I was merely stressing a point about the lineage were are in and what the teaching of the lineage is.

 

I'm not a beatles fan but I am a believer!

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[beemasane]

hey Audarya Lila Prabhu don't get me wrong, in real life you'd like me ! i even know the 5 stages of anartha dissapation(i got a loooooong way to go!) aaaaaand i can do big fat friendly godbrother hugs as good as i know gHari can do. i'll even bet i can get you to laugh at one of my hand puppet schticks with Bhakta Prastistha Pandit Prabhu and Bhakta False ego fRedeRik. you would also like my little birdy parrot sakhi didi too. i know i would like you too because you are so sincere and serious, not like me love, beemy.

[beemasane]

Audarya Lila Prabhu, you're startin' t' git me all mushy here, y' think it could be Krishna Conciousness...i do! i am looking forward to future battles of love with you...and who cares who loses in that kind of a war, huh? do you realize that we have just undergone the impossible with regards to most exchanges like this? we are being nice to each other in spite of differences or possible differences...THAT, my friend is MY agenda, my contribution i want to leave my beloved Guru's legacy! peace, man! b.d.

 

[This message has been edited by beemasane (edited 03-27-2002).]

[Audarya lila]

Dear Beemasane,

 

You have a very nice agenda. I looked at your user profile and found that we had each posted a total of 126 times on this board - another commonality!

 

I want to add to this discussion a little. I assume that you were referring to Narayana Maharaja when you said that a senior vaishnava has spoken and that you are referring to his comments regarding the spiritual identity of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I have a somewhat related question to yours, if yours indeed refers to this revelation, or comment, of Narayana Maharaja. My question is: why when Drstadyumna Prabhu asked the question about Srila Prabhupada did Narayana Maharaja respond that he knows who he is but that he will only reveal such when he completely surrenders with body, mind, words, ego...? Why was it alright to reveal that Kesava Maharaja is Vinoda Manjari and Bhaktisiddhanta is Kamalanayana Manjari and the identity of all the other stalwarts in our line mentioned in his talk without the pre-qualification of surrender, but Srila Prabhupada's identity can only be revealed to the questioner upon exhiting said requirements?

 

Of course Narayana Maharaja did say enough to ascertain that his revelation is that Srila Prabhupada is _______ Manjari. I still don't see how a name where the blank is above will change anything. I know your name is Beemasena and that you have some children and a bird and that you like puppets but I still don't really know you - yet!

 

Anyway, I don't find that this type of talk is for me, personally. I am no doubt much further away from anartha nivritti than your humble self and I am quite content at this stage to focus my attention on chanting.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

 

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by beemasane:

are you telling me i can't talk to and ask Bodhayan Maharaja, Tripurari Maharaja, Jagat Prabhu, Babhru Prabhu, Govinda Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, my old Temple Presidents and lets not forget Puru Prabhu either, about the Bhaktisiddhanta Lineage? . . . causal mercy interlude dedicated to Babhru Prabhu: i thot love was only true in fairy tales, then for someone else but me, then i saw his face, His Divine Grace, now i'm a believer, not a trace of doubt in my mind, i'm a believer i couldn't leave You if i tried. c'mon gimme a Prabhpada story somebody, puleeeeeze!

Look, I don't know what the heck my name is doing in the above company! I'd love to be found among such devotees, but it would be fruitless to ask me about Srila Prabhupada's internal identity.

 

Here's an awkward segue: I have a story about the subject here, but I'd be reluctant to repeat it, since its source may be seen as unreliable and it would only fuel speculation. But I have another story.

 

Srila Prabhupada visited Honolulu in August of 1970, on his way to Japan and India. We remodeled the temple room for his visit, building a vyasasana in the bay window opposite the altar. We had not yet built an umbrella over the vyasasana, so when he came for his lecture that evening, one of the brahmacaris climbed up on the shelf of the bay window next to the vyasasana and held the fancy umbrella we had made over his head. After a few minutes, Srila Prabhupada looked up at the boy, smiled his big smile, and said, "I don't think it will rain in here."

 

 

[This message has been edited by stonehearted (edited 03-27-2002).]