Who is Srila Prabhupada?

[Audarya lila]

Dear Babhru,

 

Now that made me laugh!!

 

Very nice story. I lived in Hawaii (Maui) for about a year and found that it rained quite often. One could speculate that such frequent and heavy rainfalls could lead to roof damage and eventually cause a downpour on the inside. Just thought I'd add that since were talking speculation here.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[beemasane]

i'm not even at the shraddha level yet. however. this is not a dsicussion of forbidden fruit here what i am simply looking for is some association and some historical perspectives on a number of issues. 1 nitya siddha of my Guru re Narayana/ Nikunja VNN 2 the origin of siddha pranali from the time of Bhaktivinode, more specifically, a clear understanding of Bhaktisiddhanta's stance on this and the subsequent transition of siddha pranali or no thru to Prabhupada. these are very straightforward historicalphilosophical questions i dont want to argue about...just information. i thot i could get that without a big todo here by trying to be nice. i chant 16 rounds daily. it does not matter who i am because your inference to find out who i am, i feel is a break of some anonmymity code here that i would have liked to be respected as do others. i knew that this forum would at some point in time produce someone who would love to argue and i am not that person. i am sorry, but without wanting to make any possibilities of futher offending Audarya Lila, i am going to be just monitoring this fellowship for research with an occasional Prabhupada story for the friends that i have made. Very simply put Audarya Lila, i found your tone of wanting to know who i am extermely threatening as no one els here has made a big deal out of it. i vowed i would leave here if the topic degraded to this level. I absolutely respect your Guru, as you will note he is one of my possible authorities i cited as someone i could speak to all by myself. you can check my profile again and find out one more thing: not ONCE didi EVER speak ill of ANYONE> goodbye and i still always will offer all respects to all Vaisnavas, even those who would not like me if they found out who i was...and i emphasize the word here...WAS< WAS< WAS!! i only hope to God that we can all learn to clarify issues and arguments one of these days. when that happens i will be back. i'll be waiting. all glories to all Vaisnavas. and i mean it with all my unadvanced heart!

[Audarya lila]

Dear Beemasena,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances and forgive my offenses. I did not mean to offend you and I don't feel we have any differences worth fighting about.

 

I am not trying to get into your personal life. I cited some aspects of your personal life that you have shared on this board as an example of how more details are necessary than a name or a few personal details to really know someone. This was just an example of why I personally think it is not an area of academic research that will end in anything meaningful in terms of practical spiritual practice to try to gain an intellectual understanding of the spiritual identity of one's spiritual master. My belief is that it will be revealed when we are qualified and that at that time it will have definite spiritual value. I am honestly very sorry that you find my opinion on this issue to be offensive. My opinion is my own and I have already stated that I am well aware of the fact that it is not shared by everyone.

 

Please accept my heartfelt apology to you, Beemasane. I was honestly not trying to invade your privacy and my intent was never to judge you or your motivations - honest. I have enjoyed all of your posts and I would be most unhappy if I was the cause of your leaving this forum.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Audarya lila]

Dear Babhru,

 

I think I need to enroll in one of your classes on english and how to properly convey one's message. I unwittingly offended your god brother in my attempt to share my own limited realization on who Srila Prabhupada is. Having read through my messages I can see how it could be thought of as an attack on his intentions and his standing in bhakti. This could not have been farther from my mind. This is a very important lesson for me because my words failed to convey my meaning, or intentions properly.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Audarya lila]

Dear Beemasane,

 

If you are still coming here to read messages I would like to suggest a small book called Sri Guru Parampara written by my Guru Maharaja. He explores some of the issues that you are seeking clarity on in that book. Jagat is a veritable wealth of information and knows a lot about the history that you are seeking to understand.

 

My prostrate obeisances unto you once again, and I beg for your forgiveness for having offended you.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[leyh]

Originally posted by beemasane:

i'm not even at the shraddha level yet. however. this is not a dsicussion of forbidden fruit here what i am simply looking for is some association and some historical perspectives on a number of issues. 1 nitya siddha of my Guru re Narayana/ Nikunja VNN 2 the origin of siddha pranali from the time of Bhaktivinode, more specifically, a clear understanding of Bhaktisiddhanta's stance on this and the subsequent transition of siddha pranali or no thru to Prabhupada. these are very straightforward historicalphilosophical questions i dont want to argue about...just information. i thot i could get that without a big todo here by trying to be nice. i chant 16 rounds daily. it does not matter who i am because your inference to find out who i am, i feel is a break of some anonmymity code here that i would have liked to be respected as do others. i knew that this forum would at some point in time produce someone who would love to argue and i am not that person. i am sorry, but without wanting to make any possibilities of futher offending Audarya Lila, i am going to be just monitoring this fellowship for research with an occasional Prabhupada story for the friends that i have made. Very simply put Audarya Lila, i found your tone of wanting to know who i am extermely threatening as no one els here has made a big deal out of it. i vowed i would leave here if the topic degraded to this level. I absolutely respect your Guru, as you will note he is one of my possible authorities i cited as someone i could speak to all by myself. you can check my profile again and find out one more thing: not ONCE didi EVER speak ill of ANYONE> goodbye and i still always will offer all respects to all Vaisnavas, even those who would not like me if they found out who i was...and i emphasize the word here...WAS< WAS< WAS!! i only hope to God that we can all learn to clarify issues and arguments one of these days. when that happens i will be back. i'll be waiting. all glories to all Vaisnavas. and i mean it with all my unadvanced heart!

beemasane Prabhu:

 

If you're still reading this thread,I sincerely request you not to abandon us.Your association is very valuable and I am sure Audarya lila Prabhu had absolutely no intention of offending you...it's all a misunderstanding,I believe.

 

 

 

[beemasane]

oh i am still here. i coulnt go away for a bit. it is killing me in the heart so, so much that i could even blame some nice advanced devotee just trying to help me and making him think i am going because of him. i have seen too much damage done in the past..it is horrible and i want to help. i am simply an old fool. i am sorry. i just want information to see other sides of things. i like all these other gurus people and they like me.. why cant they like each other..yes i am motivated, i am sorry. i want to see change and i wonder if it is evr possible. i am sorry Audarya Lila.

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Dear Babhru,

 

I think I need to enroll in one of your classes on english and how to properly convey one's message. I unwittingly offended your god brother in my attempt to share my own limited realization on who Srila Prabhupada is. Having read through my messages I can see how it could be thought of as an attack on his intentions and his standing in bhakti. This could not have been farther from my mind. This is a very important lesson for me because my words failed to convey my meaning, or intentions properly.

All we can do is our best, and beg forgiveness when communication fails. I've also made my share of mistakes, which is a little ironic when you consider all my preaching caution.

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Dear Beemasane,

 

If you are still coming here to read messages I would like to suggest a small book called Sri Guru Parampara written by my Guru Maharaja. He explores some of the issues that you are seeking clarity on in that book. Jagat is a veritable wealth of information and knows a lot about the history that you are seeking to understand.

I second both suggestions. Tripurari Maharaja's booklet is very informative and well done. And Jagat is indeed a great source for understanding Gaudiya history, especially the recent developments (last 100 years or so), from what I've seen.

 

As far as the substance of your inquiry, it's a natural source of curiosity for a disciple, especially one of such long standing. I'd sure never say you shouldn't wonder, or even that you shouldn't ask around to see if anyone has any information. I'm always intrigued, as are you, by comments such as Sridhar, Maharaja's and those recently attributed to Narayana Maharaja. I also wondered what Narayan Maharaja's intention was in his remarks. I've noted recntly that Dhrishtadyumna has been very aggressive (belligerent, even?) in his relations with groups not closely aligned with Narayan Maharaja, so I'd be wary of his remarks.

[beemasane]

i think you are right. i have just seen so much damage in my life with my godbothers it is horrifying and i cannot add to it. i would rather just go away the minute i see the problem. i am afraid of myself too. i used to be a formidable opponent but about 7 years ago i started getting very definite signals to not fight anymore...so now i just want to see all sides so i and others can make up their own minds with love, not force. we have tried "intelligence" and "force" it has failed. thank you for your kindness Babhru. how are we to be the servants of the servants if we are all going to be telling everyone what to do? better to let sides be told clearly, communicate, as you suggest, for all to see and we let people do what they want and respect them anyways. i just want friends here even if i don't agree with someone...and even that disagreemant anymore i try to hide so as not to offend...haribol.

[gHari]

SRI HARINAMA CINTAMANI, "The Beautiful Wish-fulfilling Gem of the Holy Name", by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was translated from Bengali by Sarvabhavana das Adhikari, and reviewed for approval by the GBC by Srila Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami in 1989.

 

The Acknowledgements include this paragraph: "His Holiness Narayana Maharaja guided me; His Holiness Satsvarupa Maharaja was very prompt and kind in reviewing my work; His Holiness Tamal Krsna Maharaja advised me; His Holiness Bhakti Caru Swami encouraged me and patiently heard my translations. His Holiness Suhotra Maharaja had kindly consented to edit my book, which he has done very swiftly and efficiently. His Grace Dasanudas Prabhu did a great job on the spell-checking, layout and typography, and created the glossary - a very comprehensive one. I thank every one of these Vaisnavas for their help, and I pray to all the Vaisnavas who read this book for their blessings in continuing my humble endeavors."

 

I would like to first present the Summary:

Summary

(Speaking is Srila Haridasa Thakura)

"The holy name is the greatest and yet the easiest obtainable spiritual treasure. This treasure is obtained when the jiva simply chants with faith and devotion, not caring for karma, jnana and yoga. The jiva quickly and easily ascends to the highest perfection by following the method of nama-bhajana already described. This method is the best of methods, even better than other methods of bhakti. The basic requirement for successful accomplishment of nama-bhajana is that the sadhaka must totally shun bad association and engage in the practice of devotional service in the company of saintly devotees of the Lord. Pure love of Krsna is the expression of unalloyed devotional service. Only a pure devotee's heart has the inclination and capability of receiving prema; the non-devotee's heart denies it. Prema refuses to enter the heart of one who does not keep the company of pure devotees. The jiva's decision to accept either good or bad association has a powerful and lasting influence on his destiny.

 

"There are three essential traits that must be cultivated to obtain success in chanting; saintly association, isolation from the disturbances of mundane life, and determined, confidential enthusiasm." After saying this, Srila Haridasa Thakura declared himself to be very low and materially engrossed, bereft of good association and always engaged in self-deception. Although Srila Haridasa is himself a nitya-siddha associate of the Lord, he expressed himself in this humble way. Humility is the ornament of prema.

 

The Lord's Special Favor Upon Haridasa Thakura

Srila Haridasa continued, "O Lord, kindly shower upon me Your causeless mercy (abhaituki-krpa). I pray that you grant me entry into the realm of bhakti-rasa." Saying this, Srila Haridasa fell unconscious in loving ecstasy, fully self-surrendered at the Lord's lotus feet.

 

Abhaikuti-krpa means 'causeless mercy'. By saying this, Srila Haridasa implied that he was spiritually unaccomplished and therefore had no hope for the kind of mercy Lord Krsna bestows on His pure devotees. In his mood of utter helplessness he simply prayed for Lord Caitanya's unconditional grace.

 

Srila Haridasa Thakura is famous for nama-bhajana and teaching the glories of the holy name, yet he is also the recipient of Lord Caitanya's mercy. He is such an authority on the philosophy of nama-rasa that once, when Lord Caitanya was relishing the topics of Radha-Krsna lila with Ramananda Raya and Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya in the courtyard of Srila Haridasa Thakura's bhajana-kutira, Srila Haridasa repeatedly expounded at length on the glories of nama-rasa to the rapt attention of the other exalted persons present.

 

Hearing this, Lord Caitanya was moved by divine loving emotions. He lifted Srila Haridasa up and embraced him. The Lord then spoke in confidence to him. "O Haridasa! Listen attentively to what I have to say. The truth about the holy name will be hidden by mischievous rascals who will create a dark shroud of ignorance over the entire world. At that time, these excellent and unrivalled instructions of yours about chanting in the association of saintly persons shall be understood only by a remaining handful of devotees."

 

What did Lord Caitanya mean by 'mischievous rascals'? The prime candidates for this appellation are the various upstart sects like the sahajiyas, aulas, baulas and so on, who propagate bogus mundane doctrines disguised as Mahaprabhu's own teachings. Indeed, they conceal from the world the pure philosophy of Krsna consciousness expounded by the Lord Himself in His Siksastaka.

 

The Lord continued, "The true path of the holy name will be followed by saintly souls who are totally detached from material life. They will chant the holy name with bhava; because of this, they will be known as rasika-bhaktas. Their bhava will be that of separation. By their chanting they will relish the pastimes of Radha-Krsna and Their eight principal gopi girlfriends.

 

"The jiva is blessed with pure bhakti only on the strength of his sukrti, or piety and faith. Not everyone is entitled to have such devotion. In order to intensify their devotion, I have descended and propagated the chanting of the holy name as the religion for this age. The chanting of the maha-mantra: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare is factually the jiva's inherent and eternal religion.

 

"O Haridasa! I depend upon you to accomplish this task, and thus I hear from you the glories of the holy name."

 

The Harinama Cintamani, the touchstone of the Lord's holy name, is an unfathomable mine of divine nectar. Whoever tastes it is truly fortunate and is blessed by Krsna. He is a great soul and always blissfully serves Lord Krsna in spontaneous loving devotion. I am a fallen soul; I clasp his feet and humbly pray that the remnants of this nectar should be distributed profusely, thus spreading the divine bliss to everyone.

 

The following are the special parts that came into mind while enjoying the mood of this thread:

Srila Haridasa continues: "Progressively, the devotee's practice of lila-smarana intensifies to the point where he begins to meditate on the most confidential pastimes of the Lord known as asta-kaliya-lila, or the eightfold pastimes of Radha-Krsna. When his meditation reaches maturity, rasa rises in full glory.

 

The svarsiki Process of Worship

"Asta-kaliya-lila smarana is also known as svarsiki worship. In this stage of bhajana, Lord Krsna manifests Himself according to the time and place of the pastime being meditated upon. <font color=blue>Now the devotee realizes the full grace of his spiritual master, who, in his eternal spiritual form (siddha-svarupa), guides the disciple to a sakhi or gopi, who in turn introduces him into the pastimes of the Lord.</font> Of all the gopis, Srimati Radharani, the daughter of King Vrsabhanu, is the acme of excellence. She embodies the highest spiritual sentiment, mahabhava; serving Krsna under Her leadership is the most sublime spiritual experience.

 

.......

 

Bhajana from sravana-dasa to smarana-dasa

Srila Haridasa continues: "If, after having tested the disciple, the spiritual master determines that he is eligible to perform bhajana and serve in the srngara-rasa, he then confidentially informs the disciple about his eternal spiritual role as a manjari in Srimati Radharani's camp, under the supervision of Sri Lalita-devi. The spiritual master teaches the disciples how to develop the eleven sentiments of the gopis, how to meditate on the asta-kaliya-lila, and how to be properly established in both.

 

"So that he may fully understand them, the sadhaka is shown his siddhadeha or spiritual identity, viz. his spiritual name, form, qualities, service and so on. The spiritual master also discloses to the disciple who his parents are in the sadhaka's manjari-identity, which house she was born in, who her husband is, and so on. At this point, the disciple must spurn all Vedic religious pursuits and simply be a fully surrendered maidservant of Srimati Radharani, the camp leader. Thereafter, the guru will reveal in detail the disciple's eternal service to Srimati Radharani in the asta-kaliya-lila. The sadhaka (now a female sadhaki) embraces these revelations in varna-dasa. He enters into smarana-dasa when he actually remembers them on his own; and so, in this way, the sadhaka takes spiritual birth as a gopi in Vraja.

 

.......

AND SOME HOPE:

 

Srila Haridasa continues: "In this elevated stage, constant bhajana and nama will inevitably bring about a face-to-face meeting with the blessed Lord Syamasundara. By the Lord's merciful will, all trace of the devotee's subtle body of mind, intelligence and false ego will be extinguished with the demise of the gross body of five elements.

 

"This is when the devotee's pure spiritual form fully manifests, minus all material coverings. In the mood of pure bhava, he takes up his eternal service to Sri-Sri-Radha-Krsna in the transcendental dhama. He thus becomes a sadhana-siddha or a perfected conditioned soul who is now reinstated in his svarupa through sadhana and bhajana. He now serves the Lord in the company of nitya-siddhas, the eternal associates of the Lord who were never conditioned.

 

I would have presented more, but I'm afraid this is not simply cut and paste, ready-to-serve nectar.

 

In my heart I expect Srila Prabhupada in his eternal personality to continue to assist his disciples when they reach this platform. Why not?

 

gHari

 

------------------

Gary Stevason

Seeking the Kingdom of God

[beemasane]

dear gHari i do not have the words to descrbe my thanks to you for this, suffice it to say i am in your considerable debt. this could not have been posted at a more appropriate time, considering where this thread has gone today and the fact that it is the eve before Gaura-Purnima. reading the list of devotees that co-operated on this book has given me such joy in my heart...thank you gHari...i am sure we will meet one day for that great big hug i spoke of you earlier today. Hari bol Prabhu...Jaya Sachinandana Gaura Hari and all glories to his wonderful devotees. good night.

[gHari]

DON'T YOU GO AWAY!

 

I gave you that night of japa bonanza. You owe me.

[beemasane]

whoa....i gotta' back up here for a second Gauracandra...sorry. dearest skeptic. Prabhupada to me IS Krishna, you will not ever find God without Guru...on a lighter note, its nice to have you along for the ride..you truly have haunted me with the

broken heart" talk of yesterday congradulations for making my japa priod this morning a memorable atoning and re-afformation to try not to break Prabhupada's heart anymore...all respects to you my friend, the skeptic...heres to you to keep us Blissed out!cosmic interlude here...gHari, oh most soft-hearted lover of His Divine Grace when i was in india last 1999 i was in Puri Maharaja's camp in Puri and was blessed with three days of Katha about the relationship of Prabhupada with His Holiness Sridar Maharaja. one of the things that was told me was one time when both of the Gurus went off to speak privately one of Prabhupada's disciple asked him what all the laughing and goings on were...He replied the EXACT words you have posted today. interesting lotus footnote huh?...segway to leyh...if only i could become the servant of the servant...the level of humility we will need to even approach the weighty issue of who is Prabhupada is so staggering that to me, with my bloated false ego, is staggering. how many times i am corrected at our bhagavadgita class example: i am the "Nsringha" guy around these here parts and when its time for His prayers everybody > knows thats MY job... well i forgot at the end to sing Jaya Pralada Maharaja and this godbrother sang that at the end and i just had to let him finish my pitiful attept...i stewwed about this for DAYS! you will please help me become more humble please. servant of the servant!Gauracandra scenario here..cheerio, hari bol and all that thot...by the way you remind me of my senior godbrother Mukunda Swami: he is so level headed, NEVER gets mad and is totally a gentle man of professional discrimination. i am old enough now to know that there is no time to waste on any mental speculation. i want to know the parameters of the job to be done and get on with it. if some other fine Guru who had a relation ship with Prabhupada...how can i POSSIBLY lose with his fine instruction. i have been studying gurutattva with regards to siksa for 4 years now and know many advanced disciples from three camps and these people have some of them THREE gurus...i am not afraid of this i am envious as a snake...it seems they get triple fun during their japa and guru puja! i will shortly tell you two shoert storiesof my experience with these ever well wishing saints who i tell you they dont even are on the ground when they walk over to you and look into your eyes to see how serious you are about your sadhana to Prabhupada...their innermost intimate friend....oooooooooh i am not kidding it is very spookey nice to be zapped by Vaisnavas of this incomprehensibly advanced level. jaya for now Prabhu...i realyy think you would like me in real life Gauaracandra, i know i am a big ol' gassbag but i bet i can make you laugh til you cry...i just bet that i caaaaaaa-AAAAAN! i can do robin williams type immitations in a fun non offensive way of devotees... if i can make laff some of the temple presidants that i had laff...oh you will be so easy of a defeat for me haha! all glories to you!

[Audarya lila]

The line of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati follows closely his teaching on the matter of revelation of one's spiritual identity. His line of reasoning and the practice that he advocated was that one will realize his svarupa in the syllables of the Holy Name.

 

He advocated keeping Raganuga bhaki high above our heads. Why? The idea was that he did not want to propagate a material, imaginary thing. He advocated the concept of first deserve, then desire. So his practical program was to practice sadhana and chant under the guidance of Sri Guru and when one comes to the stage where his/her anarthas are cleared then some clear conception can come.

 

Srila Prabhupada is he who strictly follows the lead of his Guru Maharaja and who is showing the way to actually enter into divine life. It is not a cheap thing. If we really want to know the svarupa of our Guru Maharaja we should be practicing with full determination and chanting unceasingly - from wherever and whatever the mind wanders to - bring it back to Krsna. When our bhajana reaches the stage of nistha - being firmly fixed - then we will begin to experience divine life.

 

So, to say, "I want to know who my Guru Maharaja is" is a nice sentiment - but he has already given you everything necessary for discovering this - now it is up to you how much you will apply yourself, how much do you really want to know?

 

Srila Prabhupada gave everything to his disciples, nothing is lacking - that much I know.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Jagat]

Very interesting, gHari that you should post this section of Harinamacintamani. It just so happens that I am currently doing a translation of HNC for Mandala Media. We plan to put out a "Bhaktivinoda Bhajan Companion" consisting of HNC, Bhajana-rahasya and a few other things.

 

HNC has been translated three times, by Kushakratha, Bhanu Swami and Sarvabhavana Das. I have been looking very carefully at these previous translations in an effort to insure that the edition we publish will be the most correct and authoritative.

 

That being said, I would like to tell you that none of the translations that I have seen presents the 15th chapter accurately. All translators have filtered his writings through their own preconceived notions of what they think he should have said.

 

The Mandala Media edition will contain a thorough glossary explaining why certain translations are valid and others not.

 

In view of the importance that all devotees in the Gaudiya Math feel for Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s words, especially in a book like this one, a more literal approach is called for.

 

A translator really must resist the temptation to add extra words or comments, no matter how convinced he is that the original author intended them. He has the right to separately add commentary, as I am doing here, but he should be careful to preserve the original in as transparent a fashion as possible.

 

Sarvabhavana's translation is quite literary and flows nicely. However, it fails in three respects: (1) BVT's footnotes are mixed with the original text; (2) he adds his own implicit commentary, e.g. a translator may be keeping with the spirit of the sampradaya when he translates dharma-dhvajI as “crass, commercial pseudospiritualists,” but this is overkill when the simple translation is “hypocrite.” (3) There are many inaccuracies as noted above.

 

For instance, on page 143 of the HNC, the following passage is found in footnote 29:

 

<blockquote>gurudeva ziSyera svAbhAvikI pravRtti parIkSA kariyA jakhan dekhen je ziSya zRGgAra-rasera adhikArI baTe, takhan tAMhAke zrI-rAdhAra yUthe, zrI-lalitA-gaNa-madhye sAdhakera siddha-maJjarI svarUpa avagata karAiben.</blockquote>

 

KK's translation: "First the spiritual master carefully examines the disciple's nature. If the disciple is qualified to enter zRGgAra-rasa, the spiritual master explains the disciple's perfect manjari form in Lalita's sub-group of Sri Radha's group of gopis. Then the spiritual master explains the eleven items that describe the disciple's spiritual identity."

 

SB's translation: "If, after having tested the disciple, the spiritual master determines that he is eligible to perform bhajan and serve in the sringara rasa, he then confidentially informs the disciple about his eternal spiritual form as a manjari in Srimati Radharani’s camp, under the supervision of Sri Lalitadevi."

 

Both translators take this to be conditional and understand adhikAra to mean uniquely some extrinsic qualifications, “eligibility” or “qualified.” The word adhikAra goes beyond this meaning however, and most certainly Bhaktivinoda Thakur is here talking about the “natural proclivity” of the individual (svAbhAvikI pravRtti) and not something else.

 

My translation: "When on examining the disciple’s natural tendencies, the spiritual master verifies that he truly has a taste for serving in the sringara-rasa, he informs the disciple of the eternal form that he should cultivate as a manjari in Lalita's sub-group of Srimati Radharani’s group of gopis."

 

I will give more specifics on the passages you have quoted in a later post.

 

Your servant,

 

Jagat

[gHari]

Thank you, Jagadananda Prabhu.

 

Your further translation comments will be most welcomed; as will that new book from Mandala. Exact translations will be much more powerful and meaningful for all in this age of great debates.

 

Now more than ever, I appreciate Srila Prabhupada's faith in presenting his master's masterpieces exactly as written.

 

gHari

[stonehearted]

Originally posted by Jagat:

Very interesting, gHari that you should post this section of Harinamacintamani. It just so happens that I am currently doing a translation of HNC for Mandala Media. We plan to put out a "Bhaktivinoda Bhajan Companion" consisting of HNC, Bhajana-rahasya and a few other things. . . . The word adhikAra goes beyond this meaning however, and most certainly Bhaktivinoda Thakur is here talking about the “natural proclivity” of the individual (svAbhAvikI pravRtti) and not something else.

 

My translation: "When on examining the disciple’s natural tendencies, the spiritual master verifies that he truly has a taste for serving in the sringara-rasa, he informs the disciple of the eternal form that he should cultivate as a manjari in Lalita's sub-group of Srimati Radharani’s group of gopis."

I join the chorus in thanking Jagat for sharing this. It's well for us to understand that adhikara has a broader range of meaning(s) that include, but isn't limited to the extrinsic "qualifications" many of us may consider when we think of the term, i.e., which "stage" a sadhaka may have attained in terms of Rupa Goswami's description of the devotional creeper's development.

 

Like the others here, I look forward to the book's publication. I also hold out a little hope that I may be able to help with its editing.

 

Babhru

[beemasane]

thru the graces of gHari Prabhu and Jagat Prabhu we now have siddha pranali system here before us in a public forum and nicely qualified too, i cannot thank you to both enough for the generous kindness and expertise. so, with straw in my teeth i am humbly asking: when his disciple is ready, how does this system work without Srila Prabhupada here physically?

[mahak]

Haribol. Jagat makes a good point which may be a whole other topic, but Ill comment under this banner.

 

While it is a fact that Srila Prabhupada CHOSE (generally) to not reveal His spiritual identity, this is cautionary rather than "keeping the truth away" from His disciples, like others may take advantage of to try to wrest disciples away.

 

As Jagat mentions in his post, Srila Prabhupada did give indication of his swarupa siddhi on an individual basis, and His choice to not include such matters in general instructions and teachings to the rank and file of his disciples only confirms that He is confidentially relating individually to each disciple, rather than being a lawgiver for a mass congregation.

 

In other words, his revelation to one may not be the same as his revelation to another. All theologies have teachings about the perils of "castiung pearls before swine" or attempting to "instruct the faithless". Knowledge is very dangerous in the hands of those who will misuse such. There is no need for drug-runners and right-wing militarists to know the sweet and full meaning of Srila Bhaktivinode's song, "Kabe habe bolo se din amare", which is his description of his swarupa. This is confidential material, and I do not object to Srila Prabhupada's reluctance to fully explore these matters with me in my adolescence. I have faith in Lord Jesus Christ's promise that "I will know the truth, and the truth will set me free." I have faith that when I am mature enough to not misuse transcendental realization, my maturity will be rewarded with concomitant understanding.

 

Jagat's mentioning that Srila Prabhupada told him of his identity as gopa (which is backed up by my knowledge that he told similar devotees many things that were not meant for general release) is very interesting in the so-called rtvik debate, which makes the church the guru with the founder as the deified head for all time. Such an eccliastic religion can never take the place of such sweet and confidential dealings that we see between a bonafide guru and a qualified disciple. Eccliastic religions may be okay in the sense of giving purpose to the religiously inclined, but confidentiality cannot be replaced by a chair.

 

Please dont yak rtvik here, this is not the place, I mention this here in hopes of passing idea on that when Guru speaks to disciple, this is one on one, not more laws and managerial dictates for masses to follow.

 

Very nice discussion here, haribol to all, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

Haribol, gHari. Thanx for including your web page in this discussion. I took the liberty of linking your site to Sri Jatayu's page. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[beemasane]

Dear gHari, i have read over what you sent me last night and it is touching my heart. all i could do is go into my room away from the family and chant after i read it. you did't cheat me out of too much sleep tho'. anyways, i'm dashing this off to you as i leave for the Temple and want you to know that you and Jagat have made this a very meaningful Gaura-Purnima for me! thank you both very much. Hare Krishna.

[gHari]

Beemasane Prabhu, you ask a tough question, and I think it is too important for anyone but oneself to answer. And certainly not me for my path has been unorthodox, living in the jungle alone for so long. I will however try to present any quotes I can find.

 

Prabhupada seems to indicate that siddha-praNAlI, siddha-deha are to be of concern only after the realization of svarUpa:

Devotee (1): SrIla PrabhupAda, when one returns to his svarUpa, his natural form, how does...

PrabhupAda: First of all, anartha-nivRtti. You are accustomed to so many bad habits. First of all try to rectify it, then talk of svarUpa. Where is your svarUpa? Simply wasting time. A man is diseased, he's thinking, "When I shall be cured I shall eat, go to this hotel, I shall eat like this." First of all cure, then talk of eating this and that. SvarUpa, when you are cured, that is svarUpa. So long you are not cured, what is the use of talking svarUpa? First business is cure yourself. Anartha-nivRtti, that is anartha-nivRtti. Then svarUpa will come. That is the bAbAjIs. In VRndAvana, you have seen? Siddha-praNAlI.

Pradyumna: Ah, siddha-praNAlI, siddha-deha?

PrabhupAda: They are smoking and having illicit sex with one dozen women--svarUpa. Rascal. This is called sahajiyA, a rascal. Condemned. Where is your svarUpa? Don't talk unnecessarily. First of all come to svarUpa, then talk of svarUpa.

Devotee: So our motivation should be to get free from birth, disease, old age and death.

PrabhupAda: That is already explained. But you must be determined how to execute devotional service. Without determined devotional service, how we can attain that position? So what is the use of talking utopian? First business is anartha-nivRttiH syAt. Adau zraddhA tathaH sAdhu-saGgo 'tha bhajana-kriyA tato anartha-nivRttiH syAt. You adopt this means that you have got full faith that "KRSNa consciousness will save me." Then you live with devotees who are similarly determined. Then you execute devotional service. Then anartha-nivRttiH syAt, you'll be free from all these.... These are the stages. There is.... Up to anartha-nivRtti, you have to struggle very hard with determination, and then automatically everything will come. Tato niSThA tato rucis tataH, athAsaktis tato bhAvaH. So before svarUpa, anartha-nivRtti, don't expect all these. Read.

Pradyumna:

zanaiH zanair uparamed

buddhyA dhRti-gRhItayA

Atma-saMsthaM manaH kRtvA

na kiJcid api cintayet

PrabhupAda: This is practice.

 

It just happens? This is my take anyway:

TamAla KRSNa: Very good. What are...? Now, this man proclaimed himself to be "tIrtha-guru." What are some of the other ways that they will say? I remember JagannAtha was saying that he...

PrabhupAda: TIrtha-guru, if he's able to take him to the temple, then tIrtha guru. Otherwise he's a goru, cow, tIrtha cow. That's all.

TamAla KRSNa: Say like that.

PrabhupAda: Yes. (laughs) Tell them that. He's unable to show JagannAtha. Then how he's guru? It is guru's responsibility to bring him to... That is upanayana. Upanayana, this sacred thread, means the guru brings him near God.

TamAla KRSNa: Yeah, this man gives them some thread, makes them touch his feet, the whole thing, offer coconut...

PrabhupAda: He's a foolish rascal. What can be done?

TamAla KRSNa: Yeah. JagannAtha, when he was telling us about this bAbAjI, he said that there's also these bAbAjIs, they claim to be a guru for giving initiation into their svarUpa.

PrabhupAda: SvarUpa-siddhi.

TamAla KRSNa: Yeah, svarUpa-siddhi. So we can mention this as also rascaldom.

PrabhupAda: Yes. What can be done? Cheaters there are. If you want to be cheated, who can save you? He has made guru without asking his guru. He submits to others. Then how we can save him?

TamAla KRSNa: What does that do to his relationship with his own spiritual master?

PrabhupAda: Eh?

TamAla KRSNa: How does this affect his relationship with his...?

PrabhupAda: They don't care for his own spiritual master.

TamAla KRSNa: But what...? That means their relationship is spoiled.

PrabhupAda: Yes. Guror avajJA, aparAdha.

TamAla KRSNa: AparAdha.

PrabhupAda: And Caitanya MahAprabhu has advised, "Save yourself from aparAdha." Some aparAdha, and they are going away, just like NitAi. Guror avajJA.

TamAla KRSNa: It's called the elephant offense?

PrabhupAda: Hm. VaiSNava-aparAdha. The weak and the fools, they will be victimized. What can be done? TIrtha-guru, the pANDA is accepted tIrtha-guru... That... But he takes to JagannAtha temple and other holy places, gives him instruction about the holy places and so on, so on, shelter, food, in this way.

TamAla KRSNa: Hm. There is such a thing.

PrabhupAda: Yes. Because I am unknown, so he helps me in every respect. So VaiSNava accepts everyone as guru, zikSA-guru, dIkSA-guru, then tIrtha-guru. This is no harm. But what is this rascal, "No, no, you cannot sit down here. You take the flag and pay me hundred rupees?" if you are so rascal, who can save you?

TamAla KRSNa: TIrtha-goru.

PrabhupAda: TIrtha-goru, that is called. That risk is there because in India there are so many places, holy places. If you are not expert, you'll be victimized.

TamAla KRSNa: What about this svarUpa-siddhi?

PrabhupAda: SvarUpa-siddhi, that is bogus. SvarUpa-siddhi is not that you do all nonsense things and svarUpa-siddhi... SvarUpa-siddhi means when he is actually liberated, he understands what is his relationship with KRSNa. That is svarUpa-siddhi. SAkhya... So that is far away. Unless... If he's such a fool, then where is svarUpa-siddhi?

TamAla KRSNa: So that realization doesn't come by some initiation from some bAbAjI.

PrabhupAda: That automatically comes when there..., he is liberated, not before. So the bAbAjIs give this mantra for svarUpa-siddhi?

TamAla KRSNa: Hm.

PrabhupAda: Yes, this is going on.

TamAla KRSNa: This man, he has a book now of these..., this man from PurI, JagannAtha PurI. He has a... He collects letters from each one of them, and he keeps them in a book, and he shows...

PrabhupAda: Yes, that "They have given me..."

TamAla KRSNa: So many disciples.

PrabhupAda: The VRndAvana also they do. These things are there, their business. And they smoke gAJ..., opium, gAJjA. PAn they are chewing, fish. "TIrtha-guru." In VRndAvana the jAta-guru, caste gosvAmI, they do like that. He'll not touch his water even, and still, he is disciple.

TamAla KRSNa: Yeah, but that... This is such a contradiction, that the man gives someone, makes someone his disciple, but he will not take him.

PrabhupAda: He'll not take his food, he'll not touch his water, and still, he's guru. That's all. In VRndAvana it is going on, large... So many visitors come. They are victimized. They have got their step, in that way.

TamAla KRSNa: Yeah, right. The devotees should understand also that any money that's given to these persons, the Deity will never see this money.

PrabhupAda: Cheating is going on. You have to be careful. Otherwise very risky. Vipralipsa. One of the qualification of conditioned souls is to cheat others and be cheated. VaJchita vaJchaka. Business cheat... (end)

 

[beemasane]

i offer my obeisances unto all the gurus, the devotees, the Lord's avatars, his expansions, his saktis and the primeval Lord himself, Sri Krishna Chaitanya. hari bol gHari. you should be ashamed of yourself. why? you make it very difficult for me to sleep again...and also i think you are cruel to disturb the mind of the ignorant like you are doing to me...AND even worse, i think that you are arousing my fighting spirit to somehow find out how to not only repay you a surmounting debt, but to challenge you double or everything! and finally, i think you are a cheat, to some how always win and i will not be able to go away. you are"rascal number 1! Have a absorbed Gaura-Purnima. and i will not let this Jagat escape from my master plan of eclesiastic world domination either! you must please tell me if the word adhikara is also used in a "lesser" context meaning capacity? and on a separate issue concerning your previous interpretation of my word "too", an operative word, i believe is the way you described it... i have found that by closer examination of the spirit of the author, i have determined that you are lacking from a quantitative standpoint...please also have a heartfelt Gaura-Purnima Jagat Prabhu.

[beemasane]

gHari i just got back from bliss to say haribol thank you for the sentimnt and slokes, i gotta go now or my family will shoot me haha see you....goodnight Prabhu. oh...wooooooooo Lord Chaitanya kee Jaya!