Who is Srila Prabhupada?

[gHari]

Referenced above is Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 23.14-15:

Adau zraddhA tataH sAdhu-

saGgo 'tha bhajana-kriyA

tato 'nartha-nivRttiH syAt

tato niSThA rucis tataH

athAsaktis tato bhAvas

tataH premAbhyudaJcati

sAdhakAnAm ayaM premNaH

prAdurbhAve bhavet kramaH

 

Adau--in the beginning; zraddhA--firm faith, or disinterest in material affairs and interest in spiritual advancement; tataH--thereafter; sAdhu-saGgaH--association with pure devotees; atha--then; bhajana-kriyA--performance of devotional service to KRSNa (surrendering to the spiritual master and being encouraged by the association of devotees, so that initiation takes place); tataH--thereafter; anartha-nivRttiH--the diminishing of all unwanted habits; syAt--there should be; tataH--then; niSThA--firm faith; ruciH--taste; tataH--thereafter; atha--then; AsaktiH--attachment; tataH--then; bhAvaH--emotion or affection; tataH--thereafter; prema--love of God; abhyudaJcati--arises; sAdhakAnAm--of the devotees practicing KRSNa consciousness; ayam--this; premNaH--of love of Godhead; prAdurbhAve--in the appearance; bhavet--is; kramaH--the chronological order.

 

"‘In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and attachment. This is the way of sAdhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually emotions intensify, and finally there is an awakening of love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead for the devotee interested in KRSNa consciousness.'

 

Srila Prabhupada speaks often of these verses:

Adau zraddhA tataH sAdhu-saGgo 'tha bhajana-kriyA tato 'nartha... [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the different stages. The zraddhA stage means faith. That faith is explained in Caitanya-caritAmRta. Faith, the Indian vernacular is vizvAsa. So Caitanya-caritAmRta author says, "Faith means vizvAsa sudRdha-nizcaya." Faith, this is faith. When one believes firmly, sudRdha-niz..., and with confidence. What is that? KRSNe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kRta haya: "If one becomes devotee of KRSNa, then all perfection comes." If one believes in this, that is the faith. Adau zraddhA, with this faith one has to begin. Then the faith has to be increased by sAdhu-saGga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], by association with a devotee.

<blockquote>

<center>Madhya 22.83

kRSNa-bhakti-janma-mUla haya ‘sAdhu-saGga'

kRSNa-prema janme, teGho punaH mukhya aGga

</center>

kRSNa-bhakti--of devotional service to KRSNa; janma-mUla--the root cause; haya--is; sAdhu-saGga--association with advanced devotees; kRSNa-prema--love of KRSNa; janme--awakens; teGho--that same association with devotees; punaH--again; mukhya aGga--the chief principle.

 

"The root cause of devotional service to Lord KRSNa is association with advanced devotees. Even when one's dormant love for KRSNa awakens, association with devotees is still most essential.

</blockquote>

Adau zraddhA tataH sAdhu-saGgo 'tha bhajana-kriyA [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Then actually executing the devotional service. Anartha-nivRttiH syAt. Then all misgivings will go away. Tato niSThA. Then he becomes fixed-up. Tato niSThA rucis tataH. Then attraction. Tato niSThA rucis tataH athAsaktiH. Then he cannot leave. AsaktiH. Tato bhAvaH. Then ecstasy. SAdhakAnAm ayaM premNaH prAdurbhAve bhavet... These are the different stages of sAdhaka, of a devotee, how to make progress. So in the beginning they're faithless. Faith is that kRSNe bhakti kaile sarva... KRSNa says, sarva-dharmAn parityajya mAm ekaM zaraNaM vraja [bg. 18.66]. When he captures this slogan, that "Simply by surrendering to KRSNa, I shall be all-successful," this is the beginning of faith. Bhagavad-gItA creates this faith. But one who does not take even this faith, how he'll make progress. Progress means the progress of the same faith, up to the love of Godhead. That is perfection of faith. So these are the stages. Adau zraddhA tataH sAdhu-saGgo 'tha bhajana-kriyA tato 'nartha-nivRttiH syAt tato niSThA rucis tataH, athAsaktis tato bhAvaH [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the stages. So this institution is meant for training people from different stages, and beginning with this faith, that kRSNe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kRta... "Simply by becoming devotee of KRSNa, my life will be perfect." This faith is the basic principle. So unless one comes to this basic principle of faith, there is no question of progress. So little faith, even. Not full faith. It develops by sAdhu-saGga [Cc. Madhya 22.83], by association with the devotees. Adau zraddhA tataH sAdhu-saGgaH [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Everything is there. If we adopt, then everyone can make his life successful. There is no doubt about it.

 

[Jagat]

Thank you gHariji, for posting those statements by Srila Prabhupada, which forcefully state the Iskcon position, and the Gaudiya Math position, also, though I would think that even they do not believe that one has to be liberated before one can begin raganuga sadhana.

 

Raganuga sadhana, stated clearly, is that devotional service that is DIRECTLY motivated by the desire to serve Radha and Krishna in a particularly form. The kind of hearing and chanting done by one who engages in raganuga bhakti naturally takes different forms from that of someone on the vidhi marga.

 

According to the classical position, anartha nivritti is NOT a necessary precondition to engaging in raganuga sadhana bhakti, because it is not based on accomplishments but on desire.

 

If we analyze the matter carefully, we will see that the whole problem arises from fears of sexuality and so-called Sahajiyaism. It is not a surprise that there is some ambivalence about the overtly sexual symbolism of our deities, Radha and Krishna. Much as we may try to deny the actual physical sexuality of Radha and Krishna by calling it purely symbolic, or sanitize it by calling it some kind of divine, ethereal, transcendental, fundamentally different sexuality, it is in fact sex. The sanitized sexuality is found in Sunil Gangopadhyaya's book "Radha Krishna," where Abhimanyu follows Radha into the woods and sees Radha and Krishna simply staring into one another's eyes, frozen solid in the moonlight. That no doubt is a facet of the Divine Couple's lila, but they are also engaged in "doing the dirty" too.

 

What does Radha and Krishna's sexuality mean? This is the million dollar question. What did it mean in the context of Indian society, and what does it mean to us now? If a raganuga bhakta falls down into sexual life, does that make him better or worse than a Mayavadi sannyasi who keeps his vows, or even a vidhi bhakta who is engaged in dry renunciation? Is yukta vairagya applicable to sexuality, just as it is to eating or sleeping?

 

Once we buy into Gaudiya Vaishnavism, under the leadership of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Rupa Goswami, we are on the raganuga

bhakti path.

 

Anyway, I am currently revising my translation of the fourth chapter of HNC; I am committed to doing it in an orderly fashion, so it will be a couple of days before I hit the all-important fifteenth chapter. I wish to say, however, that the quote by gHari given above represents the kind of prejudgements that have prevented Prabhupada's disciples from accurately translating the fifteenth chapter. It is hard for some people to believe that Prabhupada may have differed from Bhaktivinoda Thakur in his presentation of raganuga bhakti.

 

Bhaktivinoda followed the traditions of the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya to the end of his life. He accepted siddha pranali from his spiritual master Bipin Bihari Goswami and he gave testimony to his adherence to that system in his writings. Whenever he mentions the name Kamala Manjari, that is the identity he received from his guru, whose identity as Vilasa Manjari is also mentioned in one or two of Bhaktivinoda's songs.

 

The Harinama Chintamani and Bhajan Rahasya are amongst the Thakur's last publications. They were written at a transitional period in Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s life. In 1901, he went to Jagannath Puri with the intention of retiring completely from material entanglements and absorbing himself fully in bhajan. These two books thus reflect the preoccupations and bhajan attitude of the Thakur. It is also relevant that he completed an edition of Vishwanath's Sankalpa-kalpa-druma at the same time. (The "Bhaktivinoda Bhajan Companion" will include a translation of this poem also.) The Thakur has also written on the subject of Siddha Pranali in his Chaitanya Sikshamrita and Jaiva Dharma, so one should understand the HNC in the light of what he wrote there. (There is little evidence that the previous translators of HNC had scrutinized those works while working on HNC, nor for that matter that they had a thorough grasp of the works of Rupa Goswami.)

 

Bhaktivinoda may be said to have differed from the rest of the sampradaya in that he insisted that adopting raganuga bhakti and siddha pranali did not absolve one of all responsibility for ethical and moral behavior. Therefore he states clearly in Bhajana Rahasya--

 

<center>adhikAra nA labhiyA siddha-deha bhAve

viparyaya buddhi janme zaktira abhAve

sAbadhAne krama dhara yadi siddhi cAo

sAdhura carita dekhi zuddha-buddhi pAo

siddha-deha peye krame bhajana karile

aSTa-kAla sevA-sukha anAyAse mile</center>

 

<blockquote>If anyone tries to meditate on his spiritual body without having this qualification, his understanding will be turned upside down due to his lack of spiritual strength.

 

If you want success in bhajan, then carefully follow the step-by-step process. Purify your intelligence by observing the activities of saintly devotees.

 

If you engage in bhajan after attaining your spiritual body, in keeping with the progressive path, you will easily enjoy serving the Divine Couple, throughout the eight periods of the day and night.</blockquote>

 

I would not assume on this basis that he considered all meditation on his siddha svarupa had to wait until one was a sannyasi or had completely renounced all vestiges of sexual life. After all, he took siddha-pranali in 1880, at the height of his career. He mentions his svarupa as Kamala Manjari in 1893 in Giti Mala, when he was still a householder, though he was past his procreative years.

 

Anyway, back to work...

 

Your servant, Jagat

 

P.S. Bheemsane (why do you choose this strange spelling, it is much more natural for me to write Bhimasena. May I use this spelling?). I would like to discuss causes for division between sampradayas, but I don't have time now. Babhru is perfectly correct in stating one of the reasons for differences between the Vallabhis and the Gaudiyas. Adding Radha deities was a Gaudiya innovation in the late 16th century. Radha Raman still has no Radha deity, and many of the others (Govindaji, Madan Mohan, etc.) only later added Radharani. Jahnava Mata was behind much of this.

 

Other differences: The Gaudiyas followed some aspects of Smriti strictly, and considered Ekadasi important. The Radha Vallabhis did not.

 

There was some conflict even within the Gaudiyas on the parakiya/svakiya question. Most of the non-Gaudiyas went svakiya, the Gaudiyas (despite Jiva Goswami's svakiya stance) took a strong parakiya position.

 

The Mahaprabhu question.

 

There are probably others, but they don't spring immediately to light. If you read the article I published in these forums on (There is also a <a href=http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000506.html>part II, you will get some insight into Vraja in the 16th century. Unfortunately, I never posted the entire article, though I may yet do so.

 

My apologies for the length of this post.

 

Your servant,

 

Jagat

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 03-29-2002).]

[Jagat]

I went back and looked at those threads and noticed that a lot of my material was lost in there. There is still some interesting material, but only fragments of the Prabodhananda article.

[leyh]

I believe that Srila Prabhupada can definitely be compared to Jesus Christ,in that both of them caused the spiritual culture of their native countries to spread far and wide all over the world.Of course from a mundane perspective,Srila Prabhupada is a native of Calcutta,India.But I am convinced that he is actually a Vaikuntha person --- a spiritual ambassador who came to flood the world with the chanting of Krsna's holy names.

 

In Srila Prabhupada's case, Gaudiya Vaishnavism spread to distant countries like Japan and Africa even while he was present on this planet.Regardless of the black sheeps that have tarnished the Hare Krsna Movement during and after Srila Prabhupada's stay on this planet,the fact that there was a Hare Krsna Movement at all,and that this movement was able to have an impact on the lives of people all over the world is a miracle.And the great saintly personality that was empowered to deliver this miracle is His Divine Grace Abhay Charanaravindam Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.I beg his forgiveness for all the countless offences I have committed against him and may I always have devotion to this great saintly personality.Jaya Prabhupada!

[beemasane]

oops i pressed the buttons wrong and this was a duped message..sorry. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

 

[This message has been edited by beemasane (edited 03-29-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by beemasane (edited 03-29-2002).]

[beemasane]

Golly! ask and ye shall recieve! if it means anything to you gHari and Jagat...i just want you to know that i for one am absolutely humbled by your efforts and time spent what to mention heart and expertise in the compilation and grooming of this very special nectar. this is is exactly the mood i am very greedy for. it will benefit all. the materials posted here and other places i am finding actually are consistant with other areas of my research and i take great joy in this unity of content. i have started to read the materials here this morning and was so moved that i just had to jot this brief note. these topics and other Goswami material always humble me with how much is to be done spiritually on oneself, but the bliss i find being absorbed in it i makes me go deeper deeper and more focused with the chanting and makes me not care so much about the self decieved rascal that i know that i am! oh and on a more humorous note, over goolawbs last night me 'n' the Godbros. @ the Yatra, well we had a real chuckle when discussing how somebody yesterday here @ Audarya referred to me as "yakkin' rtvik". i stand chastened...i promise...never again. hee-hee! The ironic thing about this is that i've honestly never wanted to know much about them, don't even have a clear idea about what the debates are all about, ANY kind of negative talk scares the hell out of me for fear of making ANY offense! My good ol' dad always had a saying, "if you can't say nuttin' nice, dont say nuttin' at all!" and if you don't mind my "jumping ahead" to a higher level of Bhakti here on this one, i think i'd just like to keep this naive modus operandi here on Audarya and respect all Vaisnavas. Bhimasane is now off to read and then its up to the yatra for a bang out kirtan! thanks agin' guys! i'll be back. Jaya Prabhupada.

 

[This message has been edited by beemasane (edited 03-29-2002).]

[beemasane]

Oh and Jagat, Bhimasane it is. i tried to change it on the Audarya postings but was too stoopid to figure it out... i'll try again this evening. sheesh im a clutz!

[beemasane]

hey leyh, some kinda' party huh? glad to see you...i have decided to nickname you leyh-leyh for two resons 1. it sounds sooo cool and 2. saying it once just isn't enough to express my like for what you write about Prabhupada! Jgat, gHari. i cannot wait until after temple time to respond to "...siddha-pranali and siddha-deha after realization of svarupa..." and development of faith thru assoc. with ADVANCED devotee(in the operative present sense) ...anyone who is trying to be honest should know at least where he stands in the total survey of plan: sraddha>bhava, preme spectrum. a barometer of heart as it were. i am neophyte developing faith. i find that over last 6 years i am really concentrating on perfecting solid japa and treat these high topics with guarded respect and as supplementary to Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhag> and CC. however it is nice to have higher things in backround ie Goswami literature. back to chanting. so many devotees i talk to say they are doing what i call "job-japa" which= "just get it over japa". i have been trying to make japa a real and i emphasize real here, a prime focus of sadhana, a contact point with Srila Prabhupada (advanced GURU devotee sanga gHari cited!). my reason for this thread is to refine that contact by getting more sanga info..and maybe i give something to you. This is what i have experienced by really, really "getting" into chanting as MOST important, more even than big jnana : 1. actually i look forward to my japa now 80% of time. IN THE A.M.; Early for best effect(and before Audayara Lila Sanga for sure! haha)and you know what, 2. taste is coming, after 30 years...if a little ruci is not there what are you doing wrong. 3. i absolutely believe you can be with Prabhupada in japa. this may raise all kinds of alarms with people, but the fact is there are times i am directly with Prabhupada during japa. why not isnt EVERYTHING in nam? for all to have? even if you call this sahajiya, i do not care because that contact produces more taste which now iam really liking this japa session and i want MORE, LOTS MORE. and sometimes i am so excited it makes others want to chant. Taste and association with Prabhupada...He is NOT dead, He is THERE for you. this is how i am for one knowing Prabhupada before it becomes "official-svarupa time" and until then its getting real nicer and nicer...if exposing myself like this helps anyone it is only on behalf of Prabhupada to help his disciples who are drying up and just arguing all the time, which by the way completely destroys my taste when i stoop to it. sometimes when i am pressing the "submit reply" button with some nice tasty glorification to some nice devotee after i have done tasty japa,oh Prabhupada's smile goes right thru me to you somebody out there just like this...watch...(i am pushing the button right now to you... can you feel Prabhpada smiling?) oh Jagat and gHari and leyh you are doing niiiiice things for me! i like it!

[beemasane]

so, now gHARI AND jAGAT this is what you are doing for me , i am going to the temple with my two boys right now and chant HARE KRISHNA and i am going to "light it up" and when everyone goes ooooooh where he get that i will tell them from YOU! (and Prabhupada, of course!) Jaya Jaya Sri Radhe Jaya Jaya Sri Radhe here we come. ooooooh, ain't it cooool?

[Audarya lila]

Thank you Bhimasena for that wonderful description of how you are relishing chanting the holy name. You are indeed an inspiration. Gaura Hari Bol!

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[beemasane]

Audarya Lila...we're out the door right now! Hari bol! see ya there Puh-raw-booooo! Everything is in the Names!

[Jagat]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Dear Jagatji,

 

I guess this is the crux of the difference between what you call the classical position and that of the Gaudiya Matha - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta reasoned that if one actually has the desire that the other desires which cloud the heart (anarthas) will necessarily be absent. In other words, his opinion and that of those following his direction, is that a symptom of that desire will necessarily be absence of mundane desires.

 

Yes, Siddhanta Saraswati's position is summarized by the statement, "First deserve, then desire."

 

Rupa Goswami, in defining the "adhikari" for raganuga bhakti, says

 

<center>ragatmikaikanistha ye

vra-vasi-janadayah

tesam bhavaptaye lubdho

bhaved atradhikaravan

 

tat-tal-liladi-madhurye

srute dhir yad apeksate

natra sastram na yuktim ca

tal lobhotpatti-laksanam</center>

 

(BRS 1.2.291-2)

 

There is no mention here of any other qualification other than "lobha." Of course, a certain amount of purification and good fortune must be there for anyone to experience any kind of desire, pure or impure, for serving Radha and Krishna. One has to have a certain amount of sambandha jnana, for instance, and that is impossible without sukriti and some anartha nivritti.

 

Of course this is a subject that was debated long before the Gaudiya Math came along. There are others, as far back as Radhakrishna Goswami, who stated that only sannyasis should engage in raganuga bhajan. Jiva Goswami says if you experience sexual excitation while thinking of Radha Krishna's intimate sexual pastimes, you should avoid them. That does not mean, for instance, that one cannot engage in mantra-mayi seva after bhuta-suddhi while chanting one's ista-mantra.

[leyh]

Originally posted by beemasane:

hey leyh, some kinda' party huh? glad to see you...i have decided to nickname you leyh-leyh for two resons 1. it sounds sooo cool and 2. saying it once just isn't enough to express my like for what you write about Prabhupada! Jgat, gHari. i cannot wait until after temple time to respond to "...siddha-pranali and siddha-deha after realization of svarupa..." and development of faith thru assoc. with ADVANCED devotee(in the operative present sense) ...anyone who is trying to be honest should know at least where he stands in the total survey of plan: sraddha>bhava, preme spectrum. a barometer of heart as it were. i am neophyte developing faith. i find that over last 6 years i am really concentrating on perfecting solid japa and treat these high topics with guarded respect and as supplementary to Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhag> and CC. however it is nice to have higher things in backround ie Goswami literature. back to chanting. so many devotees i talk to say they are doing what i call "job-japa" which= "just get it over japa". i have been trying to make japa a real and i emphasize real here, a prime focus of sadhana, a contact point with Srila Prabhupada (advanced GURU devotee sanga gHari cited!). my reason for this thread is to refine that contact by getting more sanga info..and maybe i give something to you. This is what i have experienced by really, really "getting" into chanting as MOST important, more even than big jnana : 1. actually i look forward to my japa now 80% of time. IN THE A.M.; Early for best effect(and before Audayara Lila Sanga for sure! haha)and you know what, 2. taste is coming, after 30 years...if a little ruci is not there what are you doing wrong. 3. i absolutely believe you can be with Prabhupada in japa. this may raise all kinds of alarms with people, but the fact is there are times i am directly with Prabhupada during japa. why not isnt EVERYTHING in nam? for all to have? even if you call this sahajiya, i do not care because that contact produces more taste which now iam really liking this japa session and i want MORE, LOTS MORE. and sometimes i am so excited it makes others want to chant. Taste and association with Prabhupada...He is NOT dead, He is THERE for you. this is how i am for one knowing Prabhupada before it becomes "official-svarupa time" and until then its getting real nicer and nicer...if exposing myself like this helps anyone it is only on behalf of Prabhupada to help his disciples who are drying up and just arguing all the time, which by the way completely destroys my taste when i stoop to it. sometimes when i am pressing the "submit reply" button with some nice tasty glorification to some nice devotee after i have done tasty japa,oh Prabhupada's smile goes right thru me to you somebody out there just like this...watch...(i am pushing the button right now to you... can you feel Prabhpada smiling?) oh Jagat and gHari and leyh you are doing niiiiice things for me! i like it!

beemasane Prabhu:

 

I'm flattered that you think my User Name is cool,but the holy name of Krsna is infinitely cooler.Hare Krsna!

 

I must confess that I am guilty of "job japa" too. Because of my lack of attraction for the holy names,I slog through the few rounds that I chant with offensive recklessness.It is good that you look forward to be with Prabhupada in japa.i've never thought of chanting in that way.Thank you for your instruction!

 

He is NOT dead, He is THERE for you.

I whole-heartedly agree with you.Although I have never met Srila Prabhupada on the physical plane.He is a very real presence in my life.From his pictures,his audio-recordings and most importanly his words,I feel as if I know him as a person.I think of him every day even when I'm feeling rebellious.I don't think I can ever stop thinking about him.Srila Prabhupada can still preach via the form of his words and through the devotees who are sincerely following his instructions.He is not dead.

 

If the pastimes of the Lord is infinite,does that mean that the pastimes of his devotee are also infinite? Could it be that in countless alternate universes,on countless planets,countless Srila Prabhupadas are taking morning walks,talking to puffed-up scientists,counselling and chastizing disciples,dancing in Ratha-yatras and writing books?

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 03-29-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 03-29-2002).]

[beemasane]

with all the complexity and big sanskrit words, the words "first deserve and then desire" in Jagat's last post fairly leap off the page right in ones face don't they? hmmmmm.

[beemasane]

dear leyh, from guru puja song by Narottama das: ..."He is my Lord, birth after birth..." and many Prabhupadas all over the place, hmmmm...i LIKE it!

[Jagat]

But if you really desire, you will deserve. On the other hand, if you don't really desire, you won't bother making sure you deserve.

 

The spiritual master tests by saying, "No, no!" But in fact, he is pleased by the devotee's desire to know these things.

[beemasane]

this may sound childish but here we go anyway. how much of every day is just spent at crap. we all seem to be purdy well off in these parts...how much does it take from you for luxury. i am getting old and i don't care about a lot of non essential crap any more and some times...here it is...i pretend i am walking around with Prabhupada in person. i am not some big scholar, not good kirtan man or book man, but if Prabhpada is walking right there...how can i go wrong, our life will change even doing normal things because Prabhpada is walking with me? how can we ever get to these lofty high sentiment places...this is for my godbrothers only:if you think i am a crackpot so what. evry second is ticking. if you want to attack me here for being a simpleton go ahead, but i'll tell you this we better start finding more out who is Prabhpada after reading this agenda of Jagat ghari and Audarya Lila, huh? i am sorry, the sugar from the feast just wore off please forgive my offenses. all glories to you, Bhimasane, hey how do you guys like my new name my Prabhu Jagat gave me..its the big time now!

 

[This message has been edited by beemasane (edited 03-29-2002).]

[suryaz]

Originally posted by Jagat:

.....A translator really must resist the temptation to add extra words or comments, no matter how convinced he is that the original author intended them. He has the right to separately add commentary, as I am doing here, but he should be careful to preserve the original in as transparent a fashion as possible.

 

....For instance, on page 143 of the HNC, the following passage is found in footnote 29:

 

<blockquote>gurudeva ziSyera svAbhAvikI pravRtti parIkSA kariyA jakhan dekhen je ziSya zRGgAra-rasera adhikArI baTe, takhan tAMhAke zrI-rAdhAra yUthe, zrI-lalitA-gaNa-madhye sAdhakera siddha-maJjarI svarUpa avagata karAiben.</blockquote>

 

KK's translation: "First the spiritual master carefully examines the disciple's nature. If the disciple is qualified to enter zRGgAra-rasa, the spiritual master explains the disciple's perfect manjari form in Lalita's sub-group of Sri Radha's group of gopis. Then the spiritual master explains the eleven items that describe the disciple's spiritual identity."

 

SB's translation: "If, after having tested the disciple, the spiritual master determines that he is eligible to perform bhajan and serve in the sringara rasa, he then confidentially informs the disciple about his eternal spiritual form as a manjari in Srimati Radharani’s camp, under the supervision of Sri Lalitadevi."

 

Both translators take this to be conditional and understand adhikAra to mean uniquely some extrinsic qualifications, “eligibility” or “qualified.” The word adhikAra goes beyond this meaning however, and most certainly Bhaktivinoda Thakur is here talking about the “natural proclivity” of the individual (svAbhAvikI pravRtti) and not something else.

 

My translation: "When on examining the disciple’s natural tendencies, the spiritual master verifies that he truly has a taste for serving in the sringara-rasa, he informs the disciple of the eternal form that he should cultivate as a manjari in Lalita's sub-group of Srimati Radharani’s group of gopis."

 

I will give more specifics on the passages you have quoted in a later post.

 

 

Hummmm!!!!!!!!!!!! What??????????????????????

 

At least KK translation does not show gender bias.

 

In view of the other two translations it appears that men only can perform raganuga bhakti, be initiated into and initiate others.

 

Can we really say the above are without error?

 

We can also ask: does it really show (or at least be as closely as possible representative of) the essential spirit of Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

 

Your servant

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 03-29-2002).]

[gHari]

Yes, one must watch their pronouns nowadays. Looks like our Jagat will get some tangible compensation for his selfless service to us here.

 

The funny thing I found about some of Harinama Cintamani as I had typed it into the fellowshipwas that in some sentences people would turn from male to female right in the same sentence; starting out a 'him' and then bam, suddenly a "her".

 

It will be interesting to see how a big male chauvinist pig like Jagadandana Prabhu (chuckle - hope you're laughing, Jagat) will handle such confusing texts.

[suryaz]

Originally posted by gHari:

Yes, one must watch their pronouns nowadays. Looks like our Jagat will get some tangible compensation for his selfless service to us here.

 

The funny thing I found about some of Harinama Cintamani as I had typed it into the fellowshipwas that in some sentences people would turn from male to female right in the same sentence; starting out a 'him' and then bam, suddenly a "her".

 

It will be interesting to see how a big male chauvinist pig like Jagadandana Prabhu (chuckle - hope you're laughing, Jagat) will handle such confusing texts.

Oh! ghari that is a bit harsh………even though you said it in jest

 

I do not think of Jagat (or the rest of you for that matter) as a big male chauvinist pig but rather like the rest of us a conditioned soul.

 

However, I really object to being either

 

1. forced to accept address in male terms, or

2. be excluded from something that is equally my right as a human entity, a jiva and the rest

 

when there is simply no need for it. A little bit of caution and sensitivity in this matter would not be difficult.

 

It may be argued that Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote in male terms and the translation is perfect. However is not accuracy in ideology more important in a presentation - ie is not the in meaning rather than a literal translation of greater significance?

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 03-30-2002).]

[beemasane]

this here's kinntukky bab(a) sayin' g'nite y'all 'n' Hari Bol tew! i likes them there Vaisnavas.

[gHari]

Suryaz, I didn't realize you were female, but don't worry, Jagat is a good guy. He will see the comment as humour, I'm sure. I also think he will appreciate your reminding him of the gender-neutral thing.

[suryaz]

Originally posted by gHari:

Suryaz, I didn't realize you were female, but don't worry, Jagat is a good guy. He will see the comment as humour, I'm sure. I also think he will appreciate your reminding him of the gender-neutral thing.

 

Thanks ghari,

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 03-30-2002).]

[Audarya lila]

According to the classical position, anartha nivritti is NOT a necessary precondition to engaging in raganuga sadhana bhakti, because it is not based on accomplishments but on desire.

 

Dear Jagatji,

 

I guess this is the crux of the difference between what you call the classical position and that of the Gaudiya Matha - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta reasoned that if one actually has the desire that the other desires which cloud the heart (anarthas) will necessarily be absent. In other words, his opinion and that of those following his direction, is that a symptom of that desire will necessarily be absence of mundane desires.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

 

[suryaz]

Originally posted by beemasane:

this here's kinntukky bab(a) sayin' g'nite y'all 'n' Hari Bol tew! i likes them there Vaisnavas.

Good night Beemasane and good night gHari.

I need to prepare the evening prasad now.

 

 

[This message has been edited by suryaz (edited 03-30-2002).]