Swaminarayan- Krshna incarnation?

[Prahlad]

I am hearing a lot about the Swaminarayan movement - does anyone know more about them? They worship radha-krshna, nar-narayana as well as Swaminarayan himself. What is exactly their belief of Godhead?

 

-P

 

[abhi_the_great]

http://www.swaminarayan.org/philosophy/index.htm

 

They call their philosophy as Neo-Vishishtadvaita.

 

Their major understanding is Vaishnavic with an Advaitha twist in the end. The Advaitha twist is that they consider their founder acarya, Sri Swaminarayan and the following Acaryas as avatar of Narayana himself.

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Happy Gaura Poornima.

abhi

[Gauracandra]

Aren't they some offshoot of the Vallabha sampradaya? I seem to have that impression. And aren't most Gujaratis? I don't know much about them, but I seem to recall they are building a huge temple in Minnesota if I'm not mistaken.

[Prahlad]

Thank you Abhi. The website you showed was interesting but this represents the BAPS group which as far as I know is a split from the original Swaminarayans.

Do you know of the difference between the two? I know they even say that Krishna was an incarnation of Swaminarayan rather than the other way round, and often present vedic proof of it. I dont know how to respond to this because I always beleived 'krshnastu bhagwana svayam'

 

-P

 

 

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by Prahlad:

Do you know of the difference between the two? I know they even say that Krishna was an incarnation of Swaminarayan rather than the other way round, and often present vedic proof of it. I dont know how to respond to this because I always beleived 'krshnastu bhagwana svayam'

 

-P

 

Hi Prahlad,

Sorry my reply is late. The best way you can do more R&D on this group is by searching for "Swami Narayan" on Google. There are a lot of sites. Your mood is very nice and I encourage you to cultivate more knowldge in all spheres of life.

 

Hare Krishna

Abhi

 

[gHari]

Prahlad, I would suggest that if you don't know how to respond to them, then just don't. There are enough receptive people in the world, that we can leave the more difficult cases to the heavy weight preachers. "krsnas tu bhagavan svayam" - quite right, totally straightforward.

[dna]

Originally posted by Prahlad:

I know they even say that Krishna was an incarnation of Swaminarayan rather than the other way round, and often present vedic proof of it.

 

This is a question that raises a lot of debate, which it shouldn't, at least not after all the years that have passed since the establishment of the Swaminarayan Sampraday. Once in the presence of Lord Swaminarayan, a debate took place as to how to describe Lord Swaminarayan. Some saints insisted that He is equal to Lord Krishna, whereas Nityanand Swami insisted He was the Supreme, and the cause of all incarnations. Lord Swaminarayan however described Himself as equal to Lord Krishna ! (......yeah, but read on)

 

Maharaj tried to convince Nityanand Swami but Nityanand Swami wouldn't give up his belief. So Maharaj became angry with him and excommunicated Nityanand Swami. Nityanand Swami had to fast for days but wouldn't give up his belief that Lord Swaminarayan was the Supreme Lord, the cause of all incarnations. Lord Swaminarayan would send a messenger to ask the excommunicated saint if he had changed his mind, but Nityanand Swami hadn't. Finally Maharaj called him back and GARLANDED Nityanand Swami and PRAISED HIM FOR HIS UNDERSTANDING OF HIS STATUS and said that a true faithful devotee is like this Nityanand Swami. "Even though i sided with the other saints and humiliated him, he did not change his true belief", said Maharaj. Lord Swaminarayan reveals that He is the Highest Supreme Lord and that He shall be compared to none, in His own words in the scripture 'Vachanamrit'. There are many other examples from His life that add to this evidence. And if after all these years we are still embarrassed to say that He IS the greatest, then we should be ashamed

 

However all that is not to say that we are not supposed to respect Lord Krishna or Lord Ram or any other incarnation. All the incarnations emanate from Lord Swaminarayan and are His forms, so there is no question of disregarding them. But the single minded devotion should be to one God, the 'Ishtadev' (favourite God). Lord Swaminarayan even installed idols of Lord Krishna and other incarnations in His temples. ..ABOVE ALL, BUT REGARD FOR ALL....

 

In the Shikshapatri, Lord Swaminarayan meditates on His ishtadev (favourite God), Lord Krishna, to set us an example of how we should start off reading a scripture or any other activity and so how we too should offer our prayers to our ishtadev, which is Lord Swaminarayan. Many scriptures start off with prayers by the author to the Lord Ganesh or to their Guru. And that is what Lord Swaminarayan did.

 

When Lord Krishna took up illness, He asked for the dust of the feet of the 'Gopis'. Does that mean He was lower than the female devotees, the Gopis? NO!. He was teaching us the significance of great devotees. Similarly in the incarnation of Lord Ram, Lord Ram constantly prayed to Lord Shiv, does that mean He was lower in status? NO! Again He was teaching us by example. Lord Swaminarayan in the Shikshapatri asks His devotees to refer to the other scriptures in the Sampraday for reference. If one took the time to study other scriptures and brace themselves for the truth they will realize Lord Swaminarayan's greatness and that of His incarnations in His own words ...ABOVE ALL, BUT REGARD FOR ALL....

 

source: http://www.swaminarayan.ws/issues.htm

 

********************************************

 

Did you know that the manifestation of Swaminarayan Bhagwan on this earth was predicted about tens of thousands of years ago in Skand Purana's Vasudev Mahatmya? The scripture predicted Swaminarayan Bhagwan's arrival with the exact place and family in which Swaminarayan Bhagwan was to be 'born'. This foreseeing was made even before the incarnation of Rama and Krishna!

 

Reference Adhyay 18 shlok 42-44

 

Even though the Swaminarayan faith was established only a couple of centuries ago, it is by no means an unauthenticated movement and has strong foundations in authenticated scriptures.

 

source:

http://www.swaminarayan.ws/facts.htm

 

 

********************************************

 

I find it interesting that they believe that Lord Swaminarayan is the source of all incarnations like Krishna and Ram. Doesn't this contradict the Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam, where it is said that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Can anyone here explain this contradiction?

 

 

[This message has been edited by dna (edited 07-13-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Sai Baba thinks he's the source of all incarnations as well. So what, anyone can think of themselves as such. It has nothing to do with the Gita and Bhagavatam, so why wonder why it contradicts these scriptures?

 

[dna]

If Vaisnavas consider Lord Krishna to be Supreme and Lord Swaminaryan considered him to be equal to Krishna, while his followers considered him greater, are we to believe Vaisnavas because Lord Krishna appeared first approximately 5000 years ago and Lord Swaminaryan appeared a mere 220 years ago?

 

If it was predicted that Lord Chaitanya would be the avatar in this yuga, why wasn't Lord Swaminaryan mentioned or given any consideration? Can we assume that the Swaminarayans are not correct?

[muralidhar]

Dear devotees,

 

thank you for the information about the Swaminarayan sect, especially the link to the page http://www.swaminarayan.ws/issues.htm

where the members of this mission discuss their understanding of Sri Krishna and Swaminarayan.

 

I have many dealings with Swaminarayan devotees here in Sydney, as many Gujerati devotees come to our programs at Sri Mandir and worship Sri Sri Radha Krishna with us. In fact they have a Swaminarayan temple newly built about 3 km from the temple we are preaching from. I didn't know the exact nature of their understanding regarding Bhagavan Sri Krishna until now; my main feeling was that we simply join together with these devotees of Swaminarayan when they come to our programs. Actually many persons from the Vallabhacharya sampradaya also come along, and in general these Gujerati people are very pious Vaishnavas.

 

But since Swaminarayan himself has expressed these things that his followers are preaching about Lord Krishna which we read about on that page http://www.swaminarayan.ws/issues.htm then we can know for certain that Swaminarayan was not preaching genuine Vaishnavism; rather he is indeed someone with a misconception of Krishna, like Sai Baba who also imagines that he is Krishna.... Just as JNDas has said.

 

Some Sri Vaishnavas from Tirupati told me that Swaminarayan was somehow affiliated with the Sri Sampradaya, and that is what I used to think. But now I think my innocent Sri Vaishnavas friends are wrong. Clearly, the Swaminarayan sect is not a proper Vaishnava sect, like the Sri Sampradaya.

 

Muralidhar das

 

[Pita das]

While we were preaching in Gujarat we meet many memebers of the Swami Naranya group thier Brahmacaris were the same exact dress as our sampradaiya and the same gopi chanda tilok markings.

We were told that the assoicate of Lord Chaitanya known as the Mahastrian brahman in Shree Chaitanya Caritum rita was the saint Tukaram iniated this line of devottees

but I have no real eveidence of this.

It would be intresting to understand if this were true,then I would be able to understand why

their dress/tilok markings are the same and why in all of thier temples one often finds Radha Krishna being worshipped

 

[This message has been edited by Pita das (edited 07-17-2002).]

[Gauracandra]

For some reason I always thought the Swami Narayan devotees were some branch off of the followers of Nimbarka. I'm probably way off, but its just something in the back of my mind.

[mahak]

as usual, our scholarly gHari give the soundest of advice. Just because something sounds spiritual, dont go running to it without research. Dont croak hello like a frog to a cobra.

 

There must be satisfaction during a spiritual quest, otherwise there is no spirituality. Endless searches for gurus and gods only turn up demagogues and the agency that must test your resolve by giving silly alternatives to a process that grants perfection by singing and dancing. The guru in the next town will never give us more that the guru in the heart and whom He sends to us. Once a person enters the guru supermarket, guru-tattwa becomes ineffectual, because guru-tattwa is based on the idea of a descending process. Our search is ascending, and the info we give ourselves is from maybe god, but maybe mind, too. Take the chance? Only if it is a game with silly results either way.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

ps not a criticism of whom you mention, who I dont know, nor have any desire to explore.

[varsanp]

Jay Swaminarayan

 

I apologise in advance for the length of this post.

 

I have read the replies/comments on this subject with interest. I am a member of the original authentic Swaminarayan Sampraday and not the spin off BAPs organisation, which places the unfounded ideology that Brahman is incarnate in the successive Sadhu leaders of it’s organisation. (Please note that Swaminarayan here is one word and NOT two pertaining to two separate figures of Swami and Narayan as instructed by Lord Swaminarayan who gave us the Mahamantra himself for the name of the single supreme ultimate personality)

 

The original Swaminarayan Sampraday is lead by the 2 Acharyas of each Gadi (seat) – these are the Spiritual Leaders of the Sampraday. They were originally taken from Lord Swaminarayan’s own family and successive Acharyas were then anointed from their families (passed down). Their duties are outlined in the Desh Vibhag Lekh written by the Lord himself. It has no affiliation with Lord Chaitanya / Vallabh / Nimbarka etc. It does however hold Ramanujacharya’s philosophy of Vishistadvaita (special theory of non-dualism) as correct and therefore is based on this.

 

The question of Lord Swaminarayan’s position is likely to be debated forever but to me and all members of the authentic Swaminarayan Sampraday, he is the Supreme Reality above all else. He is Purushottam Shakshat Narayan and is the fountain-head of all incarnations – this was the belief that Nityanand Swami, a super-scholar of the time held (here fore-mentioned) and it is the belief that I choose to abide by. He is Parabrahman and my Istadev and therefore is alone worthy of meditation, worship and devotion for me. That is not to say that Rama, Krishna and the like are not worthy of equal praise by their own devotees. A devotee of Hanuman would pledge allegiance and service for his favoured deity but Hanuman serves and worships Lord Rama as his favoured deity, is such a devotee therefore wrong in his belief? I say not as all deities have a place within mainstream Hinduism but it is for the individual to decide which deity they wish to serve as their Ishtadev (favoured form worthy of meditation, worship and devotion). Ultimately they all lead to the same ultimate reality.

 

I don’t think it is necessary for us to debate the Sampraday’s authenticity as many Hindu organisations and leading figures (such as Mahatma Ghandhi, Rameshbhai Oza, and Morari Bapu) have commented on the authenticity of the Swaminarayan Sampraday and so I would hope that this would certainly not be debated here as it is a true Sanatan Sampraday with strong roots in the Vedas and Puranas. The teachings and basis of the religion is in line with the orthodox scriptures and indeed it has kept to these original teachings by our ancient Rishis. This has sometimes earned us the reputation of being ‘too strict’ but I question whether religion can ever be too strict. In fact we are proud to be part of the Swaminarayan Sampraday which has in fact simplified the true teachings of Hinduism and has firmly established the true tenets of Hinduism.

 

I’m sure that if you were to ask a devotee of Rama, who their Supreme Reality is then they will invariably say Lord Rama. Similarly devotees of Krishna, Shiva and Parvati will all have particular emphasis on their Ishtadev. Is this any different to the Swaminarayan Sampraday? This would imply that either all are correct or all are wrong, but it is still not going to stop a Krishna devotee worshipping his Lord as the Supreme being. Narad did say Krusnastu Bhagwan Swayam in the Bhagwat but you will find similar quotes from ‘Shaiva’ Puranas proclaiming Lord Shiva as the Supreme Reality. Furthermore it is written ‘Vaishnavo Yatha Shambhu’ – Shiva is the greatest amongst Vaishnavas, so where’s the logic in that?

 

As I’ve said the question of whether Lord Swaminarayan is God Supreme is going to be forever debated. Indeed, saints of the order regularly participated in Scholarly debates of the time and proved without any reasonable doubt that the Swaminarayan Sampraday has it’s foundations in the Vedas and therefore is authentic. They also proved Lord Swaminarayan’s divinity. There is enough evidence in the original orthodox scriptures (as my learned friend has already suggested, quoting from the Vasudev Mahatmya) as well as the scriptures of the Sampraday written by saints of the fold who were great in their own right to support this. These were saints of the highest calibre with excelled learning who had studied the Vedas and Puranas and had mastered Yoga. It was through association with Lord Swaminarayan that they saw in him his greatness and pledged allegiance to him. I have no doubt in the vision and understanding that these great saints had and therefore choose to have firm faith and devotion in Lord Swaminarayan as the Supreme Being.

 

It is a great shame that we spend time bickering amongst ourselves trying to identify who the Supreme Lord of the Universe is when we should be spending more time to improve ourselves, our devotion to God (be it Rama, Krishna, Shiva etc.) and our way of life. However the favoured deity of worship should be one which is supported by Vedas (i.e. one of the Panchayatan – Vishnu, Shiva, Ganapati, Parvati and Surya or their incarnations). Under no circumstances should a Guru or Acharya of a sect be taken as a form worthy of meditation and devotion. Yes they are worthy of respect and honour but they can never be substituted for God.

 

This is in my humble opinion. Thankyou for taking the time to read this.

 

[muralidhar]

Originally posted by varsanp:

I’m sure that if you were to ask a devotee of Rama, who their Supreme Reality is then they will invariably say Lord Rama. Similarly devotees of Krishna, Shiva and Parvati will all have particular emphasis on their Ishtadev. Is this any different to the Swaminarayan Sampraday? This would imply that either all are correct or all are wrong, but it is still not going to stop a Krishna devotee worshipping his Lord as the Supreme being. Narad did say Krusnastu Bhagwan Swayam in the Bhagwat but you will find similar quotes from ‘Shaiva’ Puranas proclaiming Lord Shiva as the Supreme Reality.

 

Dear varsanp,

 

I can appreciate that you feel great love for Swaminarayana and the sadhus who you know in the Swaminarayana sampradaya. However there are some things that can be said in reply to what you said, about how every devotee will feel his Istadev is the Highest Deity.

 

In his book Bhaktirasamrtasindhu, Sri Rupa Goswami (16th century) explains that Krishna is the supreme attractor, and that his four super-excellent qualities that no other avatar has manifest make him the most wonderful manifestation of the Deity.

 

The four super qualities of Sri Krishna are these:

1) Sri Krishna performs wonderful pastimes filled with joy, such as his pastimes with his mother Yashoda, who saw the entire universe in his mouth but was unattracted to that majestic vision and had a strong desire to get free of that vision and see her loverly child again!

 

2) Krishna is a wonderful flute player. Even the cows and birds are stunned to hear the song of his flute. And in Brahma samhita it says that the flute song is the source sound of the mystic syllable om; that is, from a distance the sound seems to be om, but when a devotee dives into the sound very deeply they can see that the music of Krishna's love is the source of the great vibration of harmony, which is the source of the wisdom of Omkara.

 

3) Krishna is surrounded by amazing associates - his devotees such as the residents of Vrindaban.

 

4) Krishna is exquisitely beautiful. Not only can he manifest a form of unlimited size, as seen by Arjuna and described in the gita, but also Krishna has a charming form that is attractive to everyone.

 

So...

I don't know a great deal about Swaminarayana. But even if he is possessing all the opulence of Narayana himelf, there is still something amazingly appealing about the personality of God who is called Govinda, the friend of the cows and the cowherds.

 

After all, when that witch Putana came to poison and kill Krishna by putting her poisonous breast nipples in his mouth, baby Krishna killed her evil nature and gave her a new life in the next world. He made that lady into one of his nursemaids in her next life. Where will we ever find anyone as merciful as Sri Krishna?

 

[varsanp]

Originally posted by muralidhar:

So...

I don't know a great deal about Swaminarayana. But even if he is possessing all the opulence of Narayana himelf, there is still something amazingly appealing about the personality of God who is called Govinda, the friend of the cows and the cowherds.

 

After all, when that witch Putana came to poison and kill Krishna by putting her poisonous breast nipples in his mouth, baby Krishna killed her evil nature and gave her a new life in the next world. He made that lady into one of his nursemaids in her next life. Where will we ever find anyone as merciful as Sri Krishna?

Murlidhar,

 

I do not deny for a second the greatness of Lord Shree Krishna. Indeed Lord Swaminarayan himself writes in the Shikshapatri that he meditates on that very same form of Shree Krishna as his Istadev. And therefore all temples of Lord Swaminarayan will have idols of Radha Krishna in them.

 

The Shrimad Bhagwat Purana and specifically the 10th canto have been given pride of place within the sect as 'Bhakti Shastra' and Shrimad Bhagwat Gita too is revered. Please refer to the Shikshapatri for the basic teaching's of Lord Swaminarayan:

 

http://www.swaminarayan-online.org/html/shikshapatri/

 

He himself wrote these tenets for the spiritual walfare of all devotees. From it you will realise that the teachings are consistant with Vedas and Puranas.

 

Like yourself, I also find the divine episodes (leelas) of Sri Krishna attractive. But I also find the pastimes and accomplishments of Lord Swaminarayan attractive and so choose to worship him. Whilst he did not necessarily slay great demons, he did slay the evils within such as lust, anger, avarice etc. It is these accomplishments and the fact that by his very personality he delivered souls from the clutches of hell to live a life of piety that I find him extremely attractive.

 

If you have any other questions then do not hesitate to contact me. I will try my best to respond.

 

Regards,

 

Pravin.

[hdjvek]

Jai Swaminarayan

 

Dear Murlidhar and other haribhaktos

 

 

If u studied the authentic Swaminarayan Sampraday scriptures, u will realise from reading His Leelas that He had not four but Millions of what u call 'super-excellent qualities' which prove His Supreme Godliness with all the mercifulness u can imagine.

 

Lord Swaminarayan has shown through His leelas and teachings that He is the Supreme Being.

 

Since the prediction of the manifestation of Lord Swaminarayan is well founded in the Skand Puranas (Vasudev Mahatmya - a scripture written by Bhagwan Ved Vyasji), it is only logical for His devotees to understand that since Lord Swaminarayan IS God (as written in the above mentioned scripture), AND that Lord Swaminarayan Himself has taught His devotees that He is Purushottam, then for us devtees of Lord Swaminarayan that is final. And when you read His leelas one can only conclude the same!

 

One thing u have to remember is that in the Swaminarayan Sampraday we do not encourage and it is a sin for us to be-little incarnations of Purushottam, because they are after all incarnations/forms of God. So we will not resort to that. However i will say this;

 

There is Krishna, as in Krishna Parbrahm, and there is Krishna as in the divine avtaar of The Krishna Parbrahm. The Lord Krishna that was born to Devkiji was Prushottam Bhagwan's Avtaar and yes as even propunded by Lord Swaminarayan Himself, the avtaar of Lord Krishna is the most supreme of all incarnations....however the Cause of all incarnations is the ONE AND ONLY also refered to as Krishna,and this Krishna/Narayan/Vasudev Bhagwan is the Highest Supreme Sarvopari Bhagwan, the Sarva-Avtaari!

 

And it is this Krishna that all the scriptures refer to as the Supreme Godhead, NOT the divine INCARNATION of Lord Krishna. Although it is very wrong to say on the other hand that the incarnation of Krishna is a completely separate entity...NO!, because it is from the energy of the Purushottam and through Vairaj Purush that an incarnation emanates.

 

During the leelas of avtaars , when the respective Avtaar talks of Himself as Purushottam, it is the Purushottam Bhagwan within the avtaar that is talking, not the avtaar. And it is this common source Shree Krishna Purushottam that scriptures refer to even when talking about different avtaars. There can't be more than one purushottam. So it only makes sense that the Krishna Purushottam mentioned in scriptures is not the avtaar of Krishna bhagwan but the Avtaari Shree Krishna Bhagwan

 

Lord Swaminarayan's preachings and Leelas point to the fact that this Kirshna Purshottam is He Himself, whether the truth be digested or not.

 

And if we are going to argue on the NAME 'Krishna', well then by the same token Lord Swaminarayan's names given to Him by Markanday Muni during his name giving ceremony were :

1)HARI

2)KRISHNA

and

3)HARIKRISHNA

 

So in that respect too we could say that the 'Krishna' refered to in our Srimad bhagwat and Gita referes to Lord Swaminarayan (even though lord Swaminarayan manifested much later doesn't nullify the above because even Lord Krishna didn't incarnate whereas shastras describing Krishna Purushottam existed from the very beginning

 

But it is not the above reason that Lord Swaminarayan is considered Purushottam. It is Lord Swaminarayan's own revelations and past times that afford Him the title.

 

I apologise that from stating that Lord Swaminarayan is Sarvopari Purushottam, there seems to be some arrogance from my part and other devotees that would feel the same, however it is equally insulting and extremely arrogant of other people to repeatedly question even the mere AUTHENTICITY of the Swaminarayan Sampraday despite the references given!

 

If it is too much to take that we consider Lord Swaminarayan as Purushottam then that is not to say that Lord Swaminarayan's faith is hypocritical/tailor-made...all it means is that we hold our ishtadev to be the highest based on His very teachings.

 

In line with 'pvarsani's' comments afore mentioned, in ISKON i know that the avtaar of Lord Krishna is considered Highest and as Purushotam Himself and they worship Lord Ram too, but as an incarnation of Lord Krishna........But if u'd go to a Lord Ram's temple they will have the view that Lord Ram is on par with Lord Krishna as Purushottam and that Lord Krishna is just another exact form of Lord Ram.

 

Therefore moving away from competitions with Gods, it is clear that what is important here is that one is married to an 'authentic' ishtadev based on scriptures, which Lord Swaminarayan IS, and for one to believe/follow the ishtadev's teachings to the last word..and that is what we as His followers are doing.

 

And therefore let one forget the idea of ruling out Swaminarayan sampradaya as an authentic scripture based sampradaya simply because we regard Lord Swaminarayan as the Highest or simply because one hasn't heard much about the Swaminarayan faith.(that is not our fault...we have thousands of temples and activities)

 

To be honest because in School i heard more about Jesus, until i first dug deep about Lord Swaminarayan, i would have assumed that Lord Swaminarayan's teachings were non-existent...but i read them and they made sense....similarly people should b reading up on Lord Swaminarayan's teachings before assuming it is a non authentic faith with no relation to the Vaishnav devotees/philosophy.

 

And Murlidhar, definitely Govinda has a lot appealing about His beauty and leelas, but for me i will never find someone more beauteous and merciful than Lord Swaminarayan. In His leelas, He was so merciful that He sent even non-devotees in samadhi (trance) and sent them to Akshardhaam where they saw all the incarnations merging into Him. For me that says it all. And then there is a leela where Lord Swaminarayan transformed a well known dangerous dacoit named Joban Pagi (the indian government will vouch for this) by His mere darshan, to a dedicated saintly devotee. Lord Swaminarayan...Merciful,very merciful to ALL. 'sarvajeevahitavaha'

 

------------------

Jai Swaminarayan

[leyh]

Hi Varsanp:

 

I hope you are well!I'm not familiar with the message of Swami Narayana.In an earlier post,the following passage was cited from http://www.swaminarayan.ws/issues.htm :

 

2) -Is Lord Swaminarayan an incarnation of Krishna? Why does He meditate upon Lord Krishna in the Shikshapatri?

 

This is a question that raises a lot of debate, which it shouldn't, at least not after all the years that have passed since the establishment of the Swaminarayan Sampraday. Once in the presence of Lord Swaminarayan, a debate took place as to how to describe Lord Swaminarayan. Some saints insisted that He is equal to Lord Krishna, whereas Nityanand Swami insisted He was the Supreme, and the cause of all incarnations. Lord Swaminarayan however described Himself as equal to Lord Krishna ! (......yeah, but read on)

 

Maharaj tried to convince Nityanand Swami but Nityanand Swami wouldn't give up his belief. So Maharaj became angry with him and excommunicated Nityanand Swami. Nityanand Swami had to fast for days but wouldn't give up his belief that Lord Swaminarayan was the Supreme Lord, the cause of all incarnations. Lord Swaminarayan would send a messenger to ask the excommunicated saint if he had changed his mind, but Nityanand Swami hadn't. Finally Maharaj called him back and GARLANDED Nityanand Swami and PRAISED HIM FOR HIS UNDERSTANDING OF HIS STATUS and said that a true faithful devotee is like this Nityanand Swami. "Even though i sided with the other saints and humiliated him, he did not change his true belief", said Maharaj. Lord Swaminarayan reveals that He is the Highest Supreme Lord and that He shall be compared to none, in His own words in the scripture 'Vachanamrit'. There are many other examples from His life that add to this evidence. And if after all these years we are still embarrassed to say that He IS the greatest, then we should be ashamed

 

However all that is not to say that we are not supposed to respect Lord Krishna or Lord Ram or any other incarnation. All the incarnations emanate from Lord Swaminarayan and are His forms, so there is no question of disregarding them. But the single minded devotion should be to one God, the 'Ishtadev' (favourite God). Lord Swaminarayan even installed idols of Lord Krishna and other incarnations in His temples. ..ABOVE ALL, BUT REGARD FOR ALL....

 

Is Swami Narayana, either directly or indirectly teaching that He is the souce of Krsna? And if he is,then doesn't that directly contradict what Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita:

 

mattah parataram nanyat

kincid asti dhananjaya

mayi sarvam idam protam

sutre mani-gana iva

 

"O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." (Bhagavad-gita 7.7)

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 07-22-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

And it is this Krishna that all the scriptures refer to as the Supreme Godhead, NOT the divine INCARNATION of Lord Krishna.

Funny how the direct statements of Gita, where Krishna clearly refers to Himself with words like "Me" and "I" actually refer to a Swami Narayana whose name isn't found in any scripture and who was born a few hundred years ago.

 

[leyh]

Hi hdjvek:

 

I hope you are well.May I point out that your assertion that:"it is the Purushottam Bhagwan within the avtaar that is talking, not the avtaar." is directly refuted by Krsna who says in Bhagavad-gita 7.7 that mattah parataram nanyat "There is no truth greater then Me." This is a direct statement made by Krsna about Himself and those who attempt to make a distinction between the Person Krsna and some "Purushottam Bhagavan" within and greater than Krsna are ignoring the Absolute Nature of Krsna.There is no difference between Krsna and what is "within" Krsna.As His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada,the Founder-acarya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness writes eloquently in his article The Immortal Nectar of the Bhagavad-gita:

 

Sankara declared himself to be "Brahman," but he admits Narayana, or Krsna, to be the Supreme Personality who is beyond the material creation. He offers his respects to Krsna as the Supreme Brahman, or Parabrahman, because He (Krsna) is worshipable by everyone. Only the fools and enemies of Krsna, who cannot understand what the Bhagavad-gita is (though they make commentaries on it), say, "It is not the personal Krsna to whom we have to surrender ourselves utterly, but the unborn, beginningless Eternal who speaks through Krsna." Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Whereas Sankara, the greatest of the impersonalists, offers his due respects to Krsna and His book the Bhagavad-gita, the foolish say that "we need not surrender to the personal Krsna." Such unenlightened people do not know that Krsna is absolute and that there is no difference between His inside and outside. The difference of inside and outside is experienced in the dual, material world. In the absolute world there is no such difference, because in the absolute everything is spiritual (sac-cid-ananda), and Narayana, or Krsna, belongs to the absolute world. In the absolute world there is only the factual personality, and there is no distinction between body and soul.(Science of Self Realization,Chapter 3)

 

We should not impose our speculations on the words of Krsna.When He says "There is no greater Truth than Me." ,we should simply accept it as a direct first person statement made by Krsna.Nowhere in the Bhagavad-gita can we find Krsna making a distinction between himself and some "Purushottam Bhagavan" within Him.In fact, throughout the entire Bhagavad-gita,Krsna declares His position as the Supreme Lord by speaking in the first person with words like aham (I) and mam (Me).Of course anyone is free to speculate that this aham or mam is actually some greater entity speaking through His incarnation Krsna,but such a speculation can never be reconciled with the Absolute Nature of The Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by leyh (edited 07-23-2002).]

[hdjvek]

Jai Swaminarayan all

 

Thank you for your opinions dear 'leyh' and jndas and murlidhar. Please, JNDAS (administrator) the least u can do if u don't believe in Lord Swaminarayan is addres Him in the correct format..the name is Swaminarayan (as one word) not Swami narayana (as the BAPS propound). The word Swami in Swaminarayan doesn't refer to a saint, but Swami as in God. And the reason u might not have heard the word Swaminarayan is because that is a name given by Lord Swaminarayan by Himself to His devotees later on during His manifestation. U wanna hear His original names that i have already pointed out in the earlier post? they are: Hari, Krishna, and Hari Krishna....I BET U HAVE HEARD OF THOSE IN THE SCRIPTURES!

 

Anyway everyone here can cite as many verses they want from Bhagwad to show that when Lord Krishna talks of himself as Purushottam He refers to Himself by using the word 'Me'. Of course this is true. who denies that? So does Ram in Ramayan, so does Vishnu (as he is refered to as narayan as well)etc!. And they are all correctly refered to. But there is a distinction. And the only distinction is that there is a common entity of these avtaras and that is the Avtaari!

 

Are u trying to tell me they are all Purushottams? I know very well from the Hare krishna movement's teachings that they dont consider Ram and Vishnu as Purushottam, so where does that leave us with what i just said in the para above.

 

What i am saying is after all the avtaras emanate from Purushottam Bhagwan Himself, through Vairaj Purush, so of course they are part and parcel of Purushottam, so whenever they talk of them being Purushottam, it is the Purushottam Bhagwan that is talking be it Ram or Krishna or Vishnu or Shiva or Narsinha or Vyasji, because these are the various forms of Purushottam Himself. If there wasn't a slight distinction between the two then there wouldn't be the concept of 'avtaar' and 'avtaari'. And i might have worded it incorrectly before but i don't necessarily mean that the 'Purushottam' is literally WITHIN the avtaar...i don't know how that works but i know that Purushottam Bhagwan acts through the Avtaar.

 

I repeat again my aim in responding to the posts in this discussion was to point out amongst other points that the Swaminarayan sampraday is well founded in the Skand Puranas which it is and yet nobody seems to accept that! and continue like, JNDAS, to liken Lord Swaminarayan to Sai baba (which sai baba, even i don't know!), which is totally unacceptable, especially when i have given the reference to where Lord Swaminarayan's prediction of manifestation has been made in our authentic shastras. The sai baba which i think Jndas mentions, i dont think has any scriptural foundations! So like it or not, whether the truth be digested or not, Lord Swaminarayan's manifestation was never a fiction!

 

The other point that i set out to address is that since having proved that Lord Swaminarayan is God (based on Vasudev Mahatmya written by Vyas Bhagwan), it only follows logically for us Swaminarayan followers whom we consider as our ISHTADEV to take Lord Swaminarayan's teachings as the ultimate, And accoring to Lord Swaminarayan's teachings He is Sarvopari Sarva-avtaari. So this is the same as the HAre Krishna followers and Lord Ram and Lord Shiva followers, who from their respective ishtadev scriptures, having established that their ishtadev's are obviously Gods, they then further conclude from the ishtadev's leelas and saints that their ishtadevs are Purushottam and believe and stick to that. This is what i as a Swaminarayan follower do! how is it different??????? U wanna talk about contradiction with Bhagwand Gita? well kindly read on...

 

Just like u feel i contradict what Lord Krishna is saying in Gita, similarly if Lord Ram's dedicated followers (let's even take Hanumanji Himself!!! was to express His opinions, Hanumanji would not budge that Ram is not Purushottam bhagwan for Him, because in Lord Ram He sees the Purushottam Bhagwan, the Sarva avtaari. This would contradict the entire BHagwad Gita wehere Lord Krishna claims He is Purushottam, wouldn't it?

 

But that is not to say that Bhagwand Gita is wrong...it can't be ! Because in all the cases where Purushottam Bhagwan is mentioned it IS the purushottam Bhagwan speaking otherwise it wouldn't make sense that there are so many Purushottams and it wouldn't make sense to have the concept of avtaar and avtaari

 

And Murlidhar, u were very kind enough to wish me a good life for my belief in Lord Swaminarayan, u were spot on,,,i WILL and am having a very good life and so will u for ur belief in Lord Krishna who for u is above all! For me i look upon Lord Swaminarayan as that.

 

Finally i would like to add that by stating the glory of Lord Swaminarayan if i have intentionally slandered mentally and through words any form of God or the devotees, then may Lord Swaminarayan instlill in me the intellect to retract my beliefs and pardon me.And i pray the same to the devotees involved/reading these posts,as i mentally touch Lord Swaminarayan's feet and of all the devotees here present

 

------------------

Jai Swaminarayan

[shvu]

 

hdjvek,

 

It is common practice in India for ambitious followers to project their icon as an avatar, going to the extent of inserting spurious material into scriptures to supply what they call "scriptural proof". Although, such practices are now near impossible because most standard scriptures have been published, it was relatively simple 150 years

back when scriptures existed in the form of manuscripts. In addition to interpolation, many verses are misinterpretated to read in predictions of avatarhood where there are none. Naturally, it is not suprising that there exists no proof for Sathya Sai Baba, while "Scriptural proof" abounds for avatars who lived before the 19th century.

 

A standard well known list of Avatars of Naaraayana are found in Scriptures like Mahaabhaaratha, Vishnu Puraanaa, Bhaagavata puraanaa, etc and this list shows no avatars between the Buddha and Kalki [yet to appear]. Given this, any claim made by any group about their icon being an avatar of Naaraayana/Vishnu who is predicted in scripture, holds no water.

 

Sorry, but such avatars exist solely on the faith of the followers. There is no standard "scriptural proof" for any such avatar which is good enough to convince people outside the respective group.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 07-23-2002).]

[muralidhar]

Originally posted by shvu:

 

A standard well known list of Avatars of Naaraayana are found in Scriptures like Mahaabhaaratha, Vishnu Puraanaa, Bhaagavata puraanaa, etc and this list shows no avatars between the Buddha and Kalki [yet to appear]. Given this, any claim made by any group about their icon being an avatar of Naaraayana/Vishnu who is predicted in scripture, holds no water.

 

shvu,

 

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is said to be a hidden incarnation of Bhagavan Sri Krishna. Sri Vishnu is sometimes called Triyuga, meaning that he only appears in three yugas and not in Kali yuga. But this is not to say that Bhagavan cannot appear on Earth if he so desires. Indeed, is not Lord Sri Venkateshwara an incarnation and avatar of Narayana. And what of all the other Deities residing in temples and tirthas in so many places? Would you say that the Deities are only stones? Or do you think they are alive. Is Jagannatha Deva alive, or a block of dead wood? Sri Ramanujacharya regarded the Deities to be the Living God, and so do the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, the followers of Sri Chaitanya.

 

God can come and speak to us in this world, in the form of Sri Murti or as avatara, if He so desires. But again, as I said earlier, Sri Chaitanya is a hidden incarnation, and indeed he was always absorbed in the mood of a servant of Krishna, and he is showing the mood of a perfect devotee of Sri Krishna as an example for us.

 

-- Murali

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by muralidhar (edited 07-24-2002).]

[muralidhar]

Originally posted by hdjvek:

Lord Swaminarayan has shown through His leelas and teachings that He is the Supreme Being.

 

Sai Baba also claims to be the Supreme Being Sri Krishna. And just because some people say "Sai Baba can do miracles just like Krishna" it doesn't change the fact that Sai Baba is not preaching Vaishnavism. The same can be said of Swaminarayan

 

Originally posted by hdjvek:

Lord Swaminarayan Himself has taught His devotees that He is Purushottam, then for us devtees of Lord Swaminarayan that is final. And when you read His leelas one can only conclude the same!

 

Lord Swaminarayan's preachings and Leelas point to the fact that this Kirshna Purshottam is He Himself, whether the truth be digested or not.

 

And therefore let one forget the idea of ruling out Swaminarayan sampradaya as an authentic scripture based sampradaya simply because we regard Lord Swaminarayan as the Highest or simply because one hasn't heard much about the Swaminarayan faith

 

You say that Swaminarayan is mentioned as an avatar in Skand Purana. If you believe in this, good luck to you. I hope you have a happy life!

 

But I believe in Sri Krishna.

 

Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj has said:

 

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.5.32), where the Kali-yuga avatara is mentioned, we find evidence of the advent of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. There it is said:

 

krsna-varnam tvisa 'krsnam sangopangastra-parsadam

yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasah

 

"In the age of Kali, persons of great piety and intelligence will worship the Lord as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He will appear in a golden form chanting Krsna's name, accompanied by His associates and entourage."

After that, there are two other verses about Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu:

 

dhyeyam sada paribhava-ghnam abhista-doham tirthaspadam siva-virinci-nutam saranyam

bhrtydrti-ham pranata-pala bhavabdhi-potam vande maha-purusa te caranaravindam

 

Srimad Bhagavatam (11.5.33) explains here, "That same personality who came as Ramacandra and Krsna has again appeared. He has come to direct us to the real fulfillment of life. He is drawing the sweetest nectar from above for the sake of everyone. Meditate only on Him and all your troubles will be finished. He purifies all holy places of pilgrimage and great saintly persons by His touch and by His sankirtana. He draws the highest things down from the highest plane. And even Brahma and Siva, puzzled by His noble gift, will begin to praise Him. They will eagerly aspire to take shelter under His lotus feet in surrender. The pains of all who come to serve Him will be removed, and their inner necessities will be fulfilled. And He will take care of those who take shelter of Him; they will be given protection as well as everything they may need. In this world where mortality rules, where we are continually experiencing the undesirable changes of repeated birth and death, in this area where no one wants to live, a great ship will come for us and take us within, and carry us away from this unpleasant position. Let us fall at the feet of that great personality who comes to give us the highest nectar."

 

tyaktva sudustyaja-surepsita-rajya-laksmim dharmistha arya-vacasa yad agad aranyam

maya-mrgam dayitayepsitam anvadhavad vande maha-purusa te caranaravindam

 

"O Supreme Lord, You gave up the goddess of fortune and her great opulence, which is most difficult to abandon and is sought after even by the gods. In order to perfectly establish the principles of religion, You left for the forest to honor a brahmana's curse. To deliver the sinful souls who chase illusory pleasures, You search after them and award them Your devotional service. At the same time, You are engaged in a search for Yourself, in a search for Sri Krsna, Reality the Beautiful."

 

 

This verse generally applies to Lord Ramacandra, who left His kingdom, and after going with Sitadevi to the forest to discharge the duties designed by His father, chased after the maya-mrgam - the golden deer. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, however, shows how this verse also applies to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He says that the word maya-mrgam means that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu ran after the souls that are enveloped by maya or misconception. The word maya-mrgam, when applied to Ramacandra, means that He ran after Marici, who had taken the form of a golden deer. When applied in the case of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the words maya-mrgam anvadhavat mean "He chased after those souls who are in illusion in order to deliver them. He ran in pursuit of the fallen souls as a savior, to deliver them from maya or illusion."

 

 

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has also given another interpretation: he says that dayitaya ipsitam means "it is desired by the beloved," that is, the search for Krsna. In this way, He identifies two qualities in the Caitanya avatara: He relieves the fallen souls, and He searches out Krsna in the mood of His beloved (dayitayepsitam anvadhavat). Inspired by the mood of dayita, His beloved, Srimati Radharani, He ran after the souls in bondage to deliver them. Here we find the scriptural reference, the seed of this conception. He is in quest of the lost souls, absorbed in a loving search for His lost servants.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by muralidhar (edited 07-23-2002).]

[muralidhar]

Originally posted by hdjvek:

Are u trying to tell me they are all Purushottams? I know very well from the Hare krishna movement's teachings that they dont consider Ram and Vishnu as Purushottam, so where does that leave us with what i just said in the para above.

 

You are wrong, on this point and many other.

 

The Hare Krishna's, or devotees of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu do consider all Vishnu forms to be One being, called by the name Purushottama or Bhagavan etc...

 

Indeed in Chaitanya Charitamrta and other writings of our Acharyas the name Purushottama is used in reference to the Deity known as Sri Jagannatha Deva, who lives in Purushottama Kshetra at Puri.

 

Rama, Vishnu, Krishna, they are all One God. This one God performs different lilas, but He is cerainly one God, and the manifestations of Bhagavan are all Purusha uttama - that is "Transcendental Personality of Godhead".

 

-- Murali