Swaminarayan- Krshna incarnation?

[varsanp]

Jay Swaminarayan / Jay Shree Krishna to all.

 

I think we need to question the basis on which we accept that Krishna (or Swaminarayan for that matter) as the Supreme Godhead:

 

Firstly you accept Krishna as the Supreme Godhead as He has said so in the Gita. Well Swaminarayan has also said this on a number of occasions in the Vachnamrita. The Vachnamrita is revered by devotees of Lord Swaminarayan to be on par wit the Gita as it contains sermons which the Lord himself gave and therefore are his own words. In Gadhada Madya Prakran 12, he has lucidly explained that he Purushottam Narayan and that there is no distinction between the form before them and the one in Akshardhaam. He fully endorsed Nityanad Swami’s belief that he was God Supreme and instructed all to worship his form as Shakshat Parabrahman Purushottam Narayan as Swami Nityanand worshipped.

 

Secondly you accept Krishna as the Supreme Godhead as others such as Veda Vyaas and Narad Muni say that he is the Supreme Godhead. Within the Swaminarayan Sampraday, saints of the order have sung and written about him as the Supreme Lord after realising this eternal truth. Muktanand Swami sang, ‘Potay Parabrahman re Swami Sahajanand…..’ – i.e. this Swami Sahajanand (another name for Swaminarayan) is Parabrahman (God Supreme). These saints are accepted in the fold to be incarnations of Muktas. i.e. Premanand Swami was in fact Narad Muni, Sukanand Swami was Sukhdevji etc.

 

Thirdly you accept Krishna as the Supreme Godhead because his manifestation was predicted in scriptures. Lord Swaminarayan’s manifestation was also predicted by Veda Vyaas in the Skand Purana’s Vasudev Mahatmya (see further post on this).

 

Fourthly you accept Krishna as the Supreme Godhead because he is all merciful i.e. he liberated even the likes of Putana. Swaminarayan was merciful also. He changed the very habits of those countless that were evil minded to live a disciplined devout life. He did not have to slay them to give them a second life to serve them. He changed them there and then and gave them Mukti at the end of that lifetime!

 

Fifthly you accept Krishna as the Supreme Godhead as he displayed all the relevant signs. Swaminarayan too displayed these signs and on his lotus feet he had the 16 holy marks to prove his supreme Godhood. These 16 marks are meditated upon daily by his devotees. (I’m not sure but it is my understanding that Lord Krishna had 12 such symbols on his feet – is this true?)

 

Sixthly you accept Krishna as the Supreme Godhead as his form and pastimes are so wonderful. We too find Lord Swaminarayan’s form and pastimes wonderful. Swami Premanand has sang in details about his wonderful form. His pastimes are equally absorbing and include granting all devotees the bliss of darshan of the heavens and God Supreme in Samadhi state. Parvatbhai was once put into Samadhi where he had darshan of the 24 incarnation emanating from the form of Lord Swaminarayan.

 

We can probably go on and on to draw comparisons. Does that make Lord Swaminarayan any different and can we be blamed in any way for accepting him as the Supreme Godhead?

 

Krishna Says in the Gita, “Yada Yadi hi Darmasya, Glanir bhavatu Bharataha……” i.e. “Whenever there is a decline in Dharma, I manifest upon this earth. I manifest in all yugas to provide succour to holy men, eliminate evil and establish Dharma.” There was a time about 250 years ago when Dharma had declined and so God Supreme himself manifested upon this earth as Lord Swaminarayan and he achieved all this (by establishing Bhagwat Dharma) and more.

 

I’m sure that we’re going to forever argue our cases as devotees of the ISKON movement will be biased towards Shree Krishna’s supremacy whilst myself and devotees of Lord Swaminarayan will equally be biased towards Lord Swaminarayan as the Supreme Lord. But this isn’t anything new as Shaivas and Vaishnavas have been at it for years and will probably continue for time immemorial!!! Lord Swaminarayan put an end to this argument by saying that Narayan and Shiva are one as proclaimed by the Vedas.

 

If Krishna is the Manifested form of the Supreme Lord then is it not possible for that Supreme Lord to manifest again? Or is that beyond his supreme powers? Don’t forget in terms of time to the next Pralay and the dawn of a new day for Brahma, we’ve elapsed very little and so I’m sure that time will see many more manifestations albeit greater or smaller forms than Krishna. Are we then going to keep on refuting their claims as Krishna has said there is none greater than him?

 

Just because we do not possess the relevant knowledge about another sect does not give us the right to refute them or pass judgement. Once we have read up on them and do possess such knowledge we can then make a judgement. If we feel that the sect is not consistent with Vedic belief then fair enough but I think you will certainly find in the case of the Swaminarayan Sampraday that it is praiseworthy. Whether you accept Lord Swaminarayan as the Supreme Lord or an incarnation for that matter is a case of personal preference and understanding. Can we not compromise by accepting the greatness of both Krishna and Swaminarayan?

 

Finally please do not compare Sai baba to Lord Swaminarayan as Sai Baba has been proven to be a fake!!!

 

 

Pravin

[varsanp]

Originally posted by muralidhar:

You say that Swaminarayan is mentioned as an avatar in Skand Purana. If you believe in this, good luck to you. I hope you have a happy life!

 

For some reason Murlidhar seems to have a problem with the authenticity of Skand Purana. May I remind you that Veda Vyaas wrote both the Skand Purana and Bhagwat Purana and therefore for you to make the statement ‘You say that Swaminarayan is mentioned as an avatar in Skand Purana. If you believe in this, good luck to you. I hope you have a happy life!’ is I find very hypocritical! So does that mean you know more than Veda Vyaas? Are you implying that all scriptures bar the Gita and Bhagwat are useless?

 

I have taken the liberty to elaborate upon the Skand Purana:

 

Adhyaya 18 of the Vasudev Mahatmya of Skand Purana details many of the manifestations of God Supreme which seem to be presented in chronological order - including Rama, Krishna, Veda Vyaas etc. God himself is addressing Lord Kartikeya (Skand) and Narad Muni in this Adhyaya to details his future manifestations. Verse 41 details Budhha Avatar then the following:

Maya krushnana Nihataha Sarjunana Raneshu Yay |

Pravartayishyantyasurastay Tvadharmam Yada Kshitauha ||42||

Dharmadevatada Murtaum Naranarayatmana |

Pravrutayapi Kalau Brahman ! Bhutvaham Samago Dvijaha ||43||

Muni-shapan-nrutam Praptam Sarshim Janakmatmanaha |

Tatoavita Gurubhyoaham Sadharmam Sthapayanaja ||44||

 

This clearly explains that in Kali yuga, the Lord will be born to a family of Samvedi brahmins, to Dharma dev and Murti devi using Narnarayan as the causal factor. By establishing Dharma, he will free the Munis and his parents from the curse of the Rishi, which sent them all on earth to be reborn.

 

The scriptures of the Sampraday confirm that the causal force of the manifestation of Lord Swaminarayan was the curse of the Sage Durvasa upon Narnarayan, Dharma and Murti and Rishis Maricha etc. (It is for this reason that Narnarayan Dev plays a central role in the Sampraday – Lord Swaminarayan himself installed Lord Narnarayan dev in two major temples.) He was as predicted by Vyaas, born to a family of Samavedi Brahmins. The parents of the Lord were Dharmadev and Bhakti Mata (Dharma and Murti incarnate) and the Rishis were in the guise of the saints of the order. Lord Swaminarayan is noted for his establishment of Bhagwat Dharma and the Shikshapatri epitomises this along with the pure conduct of its saints and devotees alike.

 

Verse 45 details the avatar of Kalki. Hence the Avatar of Lord Swaminarayan is correctly placed between Buddha and Kalki. Furthermore Verse 46 explains that the avatars here listed are not the only ones but God incarnates whenever Dharma is in decline and hence the number of avatars is infinite. Therefore why should there be just one incarnation in Kali? If you accept Chaitanya as an incarnation then there are at least 3 incarnations in total (Buddha and Kalki being the other two).

 

Please feel free to investigate these yourself from the authentic orthodox scripture Skand Purana.

 

Therefore, unless you are willing to provide evidence to contradict this by disproving Lord Swaminarayan’s claim as a manifestation of God or have evidence to suggest that Lord Chaitanya matches the description above, then there is no doubt in my mind that Veda Vyaas, in the Skand Purana is revering to Lord Swaminarayan.

 

There is other evidence of his manifestation as ‘Lord Supreme’ and it even has reference to the name Swaminarayan but unfortunately I cannot locate the scripture at present. I will try to do so and post the references.

 

Unfortunately I am unable to confirm your references to the Bhagwat Purana (11:5:32-34) as when I tried to locate them within the copy of the Bhagwat Purana by Ramakrishna Math they were incorrect. Please could you check that this is the correct reference and I will try to relocate from my version of the Bhagwat Purana. In any case verse 32, the sanskrit text has no reference to ‘Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’ which is what I wanted to confirm in my version of the Bhagwat and so I really wanted to verify these as you have clearly used this in the translated text.

 

Just because we are quite a young sect (only 250 years has elapsed) we cannot reject Lord Swaminarayan’s claims. Maybe in 5000 years times Lord Swaminarayan will be widely accepted as a manifestation of God.

 

 

Pravin

[Tarun]

Nice SwAmI NArAyan Mandir in Flushing with free parking. Nice sattvik prasAdam. Jalebis galore.

In Summer 1991, they organized a tremendously hugh festival at NJ Edison State College Campus.

I went their with Pradyumna, Towaco Jay RAm; Jadurani dd, Clifton Mary, Philly Mallika dd also attended

Elaborate exhibits included Tall ZrI Gauranga MahAprabhu Murti with arms raised + caption.

So much laxmi & labor they spent, u wouldn't believe it. Grhastha adherents were 2nd mortgaging their homes to lend support.

[sumeet]

Hare Krishna

Please accept my humble obesiances unto your lotus feet.

 

To the devotees of SwamiNarayan

 

My dear brothers stop comparing Sri Krishna with SwamiNarayan. Dear friends those who don't accept Sri Chaitanya as God atleast sing of his praises as one of the most wonderfull devotee of Lord Krishna ever born in this world. Whether they are neo-vedantins or advaitins or vaishnavas or modern day scholars, all agree unanimously that Sri Chaitanya was one of the greatest saint of medivial india. My friends all of great saints that india has produced like Guru Nanak and four Vaishnava acharya and others are well known amongst general learned circle of historians, religious saints etc. Lord krishna and Lord Rama are accepted as God because not only of their own deeds but due to authority of sages of like of Srila Vyasdeva and Sri Valmiki. If SwamiNarayan was so extraordinary then why hasn't he been noticed as one of the exalted saints of India just like Guru Nanak, Sri Chaitanya, Sri Ramanuja, Sri Ramakrishna, Adi Sankara, Sri Madhwa and others. He doesn't find a mention amongst these saints. So please stop comparing Lord Krishna with him. It is an accepted fact that in Vaishnavism there are just five schools of thought -

1)Ramanujas'

2)Madhwas'

3)Nimbarkas'

4)Vallabhas'

5)Chaitanyas'

 

There is no other school of thought other than this which has gained formal recognition. Furthermore Garga samhita mentions only 4 sampradya http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/DiscipleSuccession/

Same is also verified in Padma Puran. And also if you notice the real world these four sampradya have gained formal acceptance as four vaishnava school of thoughts based on Vedanta. So the predictions of Garga Samhita and Padma Puran are verified in reality. But your SwamiNarayan sampradya doesn't fits in this picture. The position of 4 Vaishnava Sampradya is both scripturally and in real world validated. The same doesn't holds true about your SwamiNarayan. So please rethink and get your facts right.

 

Furthermore let me tell you something more:

A Sarvaavtaari like Sri Krishna displayed his opulence by building dwarka. A Sarvavtaari is he who displays the full potency/opulence of God. Have you heard of Dwarkas description in HariVamsha, Mahabharata, Bhagavatam, Gopal Tapani Upanisad. There he displayed the Chatur Vyuha of Sri Bhagawan. Did SwamiNarayan displayed such splendorous opulence as was manifested by Sri Krishna ? Had this been true history would have noticed that. So please get your facts staright before you call him Sarvavtaarii or God himself.

 

 

Your Servant Always

OM TAT SAT

sumeet.

[theist]

I am curious as to the practice that Swami Narayan's students follow.Perhaps you will enlighten me to your sadhana and ultimate goal of that sadhana.

 

thank you

 

Hare Krsna

theist

 

[gHari]

Originally posted by varsanp:

[...] This clearly explains that in Kali yuga, the Lord will be born to a family of Samvedi brahmins, to Dharma dev and Murti devi using Narnarayan as the causal factor. By establishing Dharma, he will free the Munis and his parents from the curse of the Rishi, which sent them all on earth to be reborn.

[...]

Pravin,

 

It might be interesting to know how Swaminarayan 'established Dharma', and what that Dharma was.

 

I must add that I find that his followers' impeccable manners here speak very highly of Swaminarayan.

 

gHari

 

------------------

Gary Stevason

Seeking the Kingdom of God

[gHari]

I have just read the first 50 of 200 points in the Shikshapatri and they all seem to be standard practices except for a few more detailed ones about women preaching and beads for different groups. The text seems to define appropriate behaviour for Krsna bhaktas. I especially like the first one:

 

<ul> I (SAHAJANAND SWAMI) meditate in my heart upon Lord Krishna, on whose left stands Radha, on whose bosom resides Laxmiji and who plays (with his Bhaktas) in Vrindavan.

[gHari]

I would like to read from the Vachanamrit if it is on the net.

[gHari]

I found this interesting from the BAPS site:

 

<UL>Lord Swaminarayan graced countless people with samadhi called kripa-samadhi (grace-trance), because it by-passed all the steps of the traditional Ashtanga Yoga. Samadhi became a common word in those days, inasmuch as the chanting of the name of Swaminarayan, hearing his voice, having his darshan or his mere touch carried people into this state, in which they saw what they desired and enjoyed the supreme bliss. They had the darshan of Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Vishnu, Dattatreya, Ganapati and various gods and goddesses according to their mode of upasana or worship. The Jains saw Tirthankars and Mahavira, and the Muslims saw Prophets. Many of them saw the divine form of Lord Swaminarayan in His divine abode Akshardham. All these devotees lay motionless, enjoying the darshan of their deities and when Lord Swaminarayan desired they all awoke. Some were even shown the horrors of hell. Consequently their faith was established either for the first time or deepened or they changed over to a new life of piety.

[muralidhar]

Originally posted by varsanp:

For some reason Murlidhar seems to have a problem with the authenticity of Skand Purana.

 

 

Dear Pravin,

 

Please don't get me wrong. If you believe in Swaminarayan then I am happy for you. I meet so many people every day who believe in NOTHING, and I have no doubt that Swaminarayan's teachings are benefitting many people. But... I personally don't believe Swaminarayan is greater than Krishna, and if he and his adherants say this then I take issue with that.

 

I don't disbelieve in the Skand Purana, although my Guru Maharaj (Srila Sridhar Maharaj) has said that some Puranas have been interpolated and are not fully valid.

 

Also, Sri Madvacarya made the well known statement that even the Mahabharata itself is interpolated with false things.

 

Actually it is a fact that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's immediate successors did not write a commentary to Vedanta Sutra since they considered Srimad Bhagavata Purana to be Vyasa's own commentary of Vedanta. The Govinda Bhasya commentary of Srila Viswanatha Cakravarti was written some time later, because of some debates in Jaipur with scholars of Sri Sampradaya who said the Gaudiya Sampradaya was not an authentic sampradaya since it did not have a commentary to Vedanta Sutra. Because of the need to prove the authenticity of Gaudiya philosophy, the Deity Sri Govinda Himself composed a verse and spoke that to Srila Viswanatha Cakravarti and then that message of Sri Govinda was elaborated in that full length commentary of Vedanta - Sri Govinda Bhasya.

 

The Gaudiya Vaishnavas all consider Srimad Bhagavata Purana to be the greatest of the Puranas, and Gaudiya philosophy is based on the understanding of Srimad Bhagavata Purana that we got from Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

-- Murali

 

 

[muralidhar]

Pravin said :

I’m sure that we’re going to forever argue our cases as devotees of the ISKON movement will be biased towards Shree Krishna’s supremacy whilst myself and devotees of Lord Swaminarayan will equally be biased towards Lord Swaminarayan as the Supreme Lord. But this isn’t anything new as Shaivas and Vaishnavas have been at it for years and will probably continue for time immemorial!!! Lord Swaminarayan put an end to this argument by saying that Narayan and Shiva are one as proclaimed by the Vedas.

 

 

The devotees of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu are Vaishnavas, and as you imply, the devotees of Swaminarayan are considering themselves different from Shaivas and Vaishnavas.

 

Perhaps the devotees of Swaminarayan believe his faith is a less sectarian faith than Shaivas and Vaishnavas since the Vaishnavas do not accept the suggestion "Narayan and Shiva are one as proclaimed by the Vedas".

 

According to Bhakrirasamrtasindhu, Vishnu/Krishna has greater opulence and qualities than Shiva. And Shiva has expressed his adoration for Vishnu in many scriptures. Also, he sometimes becomes overcome with his mood of tamo-guna and fights against Vishnu, as we read in Bhagavatam -- and Vishnu is victorious.

 

Indeed, Mahadev Shiva holds water of Ganga Devi on his head, and that Ganga water is the feet-washing-water flowing from the feet of Vamana avatar of Vishnu.

 

So, we followers of Sri Chaitanya do not accept that Vishnu is one and the same as Shiva. Indeed, the followers of Sri Ramanujacharya will also challenge this suggestion. They are heavily opposed to this idea.

 

If the followers of Swaminarayan say "Narayan and Shiva are one as proclaimed by the Vedas" then no Vaishnavas anywhere will accept their teachings. If you believe in this idea, you are denying one of the basic tenets of Vaishnavism. One of the offences against the Holy Name of the Lord is to consider that Shiva and other gods are one and the same with Lord Purushottama - Narayana. In saying Vishnu and Shiva are the same, you are telling us that your teachings are the opposite of the message we have heard from our Vaishnava Acharyas: Sri Ramanujacacharya, Sri Vishnuswami, Sri Madvacharya, Sri Vallabhacharya, Sri Chaitanyadeva.

 

And Bhagavatam says:

krsna-varnam tvisa 'krsnam sangopangastra-parsadam

yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasah

 

 

"In the age of Kali, persons of great piety and intelligence will worship the Lord as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He will appear in a golden form chanting Krsna's name, accompanied by His associates and entourage."

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.5.32)

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by muralidhar (edited 07-25-2002).]

[bhaktajoy]

Swami Narayan may be an incarnation of God but he cannot be greater than Lord Krishna.They may be equal but to say that SwamiNarayan is the source of all incarnations including Krishna is not true.

[gHari]

<img src=http://www.swaminarayan-online.org/images/maharaj1.jpg>

<img src=http://www.swaminarayan-online.org/images/maharaj2.jpg>

 

<center><img src=http://www.swaminarayan-online.org/html/album/032.jpg></center>

[Tarun]

Eyes of Laura Mars ** Yipes! Wow! Eegads dAs! Don't invite me for prasAd. Thanks, but no thanks.

[Tarun]

My Will is stronger than yours. Look into my eyes! Look! LOOK! U r getting sleepy...

[varsanp]

Perhaps the devotees of Swaminarayan believe his faith is a less sectarian faith than Shaivas and Vaishnavas since the Vaishnavas do not accept the suggestion "Narayan and Shiva are one as proclaimed by the Vedas".

 

I've taken the liberty to provide you with translated text by Shatanand Swami (a saint of the order) who has written a commentary on the Shikshapatri in Sanskrit.

 

TEXT 47

 

No distinction shall be made between Narayan and Shiva, as they are

both proclaimed as Brahmanswarupa by the Vedas.

 

Ekatmyameva Vigneyam Narayanamaheshyoha |

Ubhyorbrahmanrupera Vedeshu Pratipadanat ||47||

Those who think of God differently to this, where Narayan or Shiva are defamed in some way are insulting God. Shatanand says that such people should have their eyes removed. Such a person is blind to the truth and can never be enlightened to that truth.

Many Shastras speak of the oneness of Narayan and Shiva. Our ancient Shastras in some instances speak of Narayan as supreme and in other instances speak of Shiva as supreme. Both views should be accepted as correct, hence they should be accepted as the one and the same. The following Veda scriptures are Shaiva in context as they speak of Shiva as Brahman: Atharvashikha, Atharvashisha, Shetasvataria, Mantropanishad, Kaivalyopanishad. The following speak of Vishnu as the supreme Brahman: Mahanarayanopanishad, Narayaropanishad, Mahopanishad, Shubhalopanishad. Thus the four Vedas sing only the oneness of Shiva and Narayan.

Shrimad Bhagwat’s Fourth Chapter explains, ‘Those who find indifference in Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and recognise the oneness in them obtain eternal peace.’ The Eighth Chapter adds, ‘Shiva Brahma and Vishnu are thy manifested forms, which create, maintain and destroy the universe at thy will. Thou is Ishwara who delivers Moksha (Salvation). Thou is Parabrahman (the Supreme Lord).’

Narad Pancharatra succinctly states:

 

Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha |

Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi ||

 

‘Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’

 

Bhattacharya has said, ‘I have looked in the Puranas, Upapuranas, Vedas, Smrutis and all other such Shastras, but have not come across anything to suggest a difference in Shiva and Vishnu.’ God himself has said, ‘Those who find difference in the two of us fall to the Hells.’ Shree Dhar Swami prays, ‘I humbly bow before Vishnu and Shankar who are one, who revere one another and who provide for all.’ Vallabhacharaya, a famed Vaishnava, in similar fashion says, ‘Glory to thee, who is honoured as Brahman in the Vedanta - Lord of the three worlds - Mahadev.’

Lord Swaminarayan has gone out of his way to glorify both Vaishnav and Shaiva Sampradais in order to get back to the true Vedic teachings. We must conform to this dream of Lord Swaminarayan’s by never uttering a word contrary to the Lord’s standpoint. We must always, with love, observe the Vratas of Lord Shiva and bow respectfully to the icons of Shiva. It does not in anyway fault our devotion to Lord Vishnu by doing so - indeed it strengthens devotion for Vishnu. Narayan and Shiva are one and the same. They are, if you like, two sides of the same coin. That coin being the Supreme Godhead.

----------

 

Whether you accept this or not it is the truth as suggested by Lord Swaminarayan.

[varsanp]

Murlidhar,

 

I don't see much point in arguing this out any further. We believe in Lord Swaminarayan and the authenticity of the Vedas and Puranas. Whether they have been interpolated or not, well that could be said of anything including the version of Bhagwat Gita and Shrimad Bhagwat Purnana which is worshipped by ISKON. I could quite easily go on to say that the commentaries by Acharyas of ISKON may not be acurate in my view and I'm sure that you could say the same for scriptures and commentaries of the Swaminarayan Sampraday as our saints have also written commentaries on Bhagwat Gita/Bhagwat etc.

 

I believe in the trancendental form of Lord Swaminarayan and I accept him as God Supreme. The facts are their within the text of the Sampraday, whether you believe them or not but it's always going to be subjective.

 

I have been posting to this topic as the original questioner wished to know more about the Sampraday. I feel that I have done that, and therefore there is little more for me to do here as there is little chance of me convinicing you just as you have little chance of convincing me of your beliefs.

 

Unfortunately we are a very young religion and that hasn't given us the profile we justly deserve but I'm sure that if people open up their minds and are willing to look into our Sampraday they too will see it's greatness and indeed the greatness of it's founder Lord Swaminarayan.

 

With that I conclude, offering my 'Ashtang Dandvata Pranama' to the Lord Almighty which resides in the souls of all devotees here present.

 

Jay Swaminarayan.

[hdjvek]

Jai Swaminarayan!

 

The least some of u can do before u post ur comments is read the ones posted previously. For us Lord Swaminarayan WAS, IS and WILL be sarvopari Sarva avtaari, whether u guys like it or not. We are not out there to be-little Lord Krishna. He is the most respected incarnation of God in the Swaminarayan Sampraday.

 

And how many times will u ask what 'dharma' Lord Swaminarayan established? It is ver well known in India and the rest of the world including the British and Indian Governments...i am sure that says a lot about the ignorance of some!

 

Oh sure, when u finally cannot deny the evidence in the Vasudev mahatmya and Skand Purana written by Bhagwan Vyasji, then it is INTERPOLATED!! ha ha ha. How convenient!

 

And oh! that verse about Lord Swaminarayan meditating on Lord Krishna should be considered no different than when anyone starts off a scripture by meditating on God. Lord Swaminarayan meditates upon His own form of Krishna Parmatma. And even if He meditates on the avtara of Lord Krishna, well then it is well known that Lord Swaminarayan considered Lord Krishna's avtara to be the most superior avatar and was His ishtadev during His manushya leela and as such set an example to His devotees. And He very much clarifies in the Vachanamrut that the Krishna Parmatma that He meditates upon is He himself. and that for His followers it is He that is their Ishtadev.

 

For those who get confused on the very 1st verse of the Shikshapatri, Lord Swaminarayan recommends that they should refer to the other scriptures of the Swaminarayan Sampraday for more references.

 

Let's not misinterpret the verse becausew various avtaras such as Lord Krishna and Lord Rama have been known to pray and meditate on other forms of God, but only as part of their Leela, not as a sign of inferiority.

 

Whether the truth be digested or not, Lord Swaminarayan for the Swaminarayan followers IS Purushottam Bhagwan, Sarvopari. I have nothing against Lord Krishna. Just like u guys would like to uphold ur ishtadev i will not stand ANY insults (curiosity is a different thing)to our Sampraday or ISHTADEV especially despite being given enough evidence, one continues to ask silly repeated questions that have already been answered.

 

Finally i have no idea why the pics of our Acharya and the idols of God from one of our temples were posted on the forum but atleast one got some darshan!

 

 

Jai Swaminarayan!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sumeet]

Hare Krishna

Please accept my humble obesiances unto your lotus feet

 

 

hvdjek wrote:

--------

For us Lord Swaminarayan WAS, IS and WILL be sarvopari Sarva avtaari, whether u guys like it or not.

---------

 

Well lets see if he is qualified to be Sarvopari Sarva Avtaari Sri Bhagavan Swayam.

 

1) First I will ask you what does this phrase "Sarvopari Sarva Avtaari" means to you ?

 

2)Why isn't He counted amongst most important incarnations of God ? If he is Sarva avtaari then he must earn place where ever major forms of Lord Hari are described.

Not even Vishnu Sashranama even once utter His name.

 

3) For major forms of Lord Hari there is atleast an upanisad describing Him like Varahopanisad, narayanopainsad etc........

But no SwamiNarayanopanisad known amongst 108 generally known.

 

4) If he is Sarva avtaari then lets compare His opulence to Lord Krishnas' as it is described in Bhagavatam other shastras ? If he is sarva avtaari His manifested opulence should be far greater than Lord Krishnas' and not only that but you will find all rasas you find in Lord Krishna in Him. So lets compare them.

 

5) There are only four Vaishnava Sampradya as noted both in padma puran and Garga Samhita. There is no mention of the fifth Sampradya. Hence how can you say about your SwamiNarayana Sampradya being authentic ?

Also not only in scriptures but in india amongst scholars and amongst various religious saints these four sampradya has been acknowledged to be traditional school of bhaktivedanta. Who even talks about your school. By the what name is the philosophy preached by SwamiNarayana called ?

 

6) What made u think that dharma was on decline 250 years ago from now ? And how and what dharma did he established ? Don't just say bhagavat dharma. Because it is widely accepted in all learned circles that four Vaishnava acharyas and Sri chaitanya had already founded bhagavat dharma long before His advent even. Despite the fact whatever you have to say, you should understand one thing that even though he incarnated on earth the Kali-yuga shall continue. It will intensify with time. In that way which dharma has he established ?

Kali-yuga span is 432,000 years and there are approx. 427,000 more years to go and with each year it[dharma] is degrading more and more. So when was the dharma established.

 

For now just this much is enough. Answer them and we will see where we are going from there. I have no objection to whoever you call Supreme. Its your choice. But yeah as a fellow pious devotee I just wanna make sure that you don't fall into some nonsense while you trace your way back to godhead.

 

Your Servant Always

OM TAT SAT

Sumeet.

[dna]

hdjvek,

 

In my town there is a BAPS Swaminarayan Temple. I have visited it a couple of times and have noticed that the latest acharaya is Pramukh Swami Maharaj. Another thing is that almost 100% of the devotees are Gujarati. Could you share some of your knowledge on this sampradaya and how it relates to the other two in the Swaminarayan faith?

 

 

[muralidhar]

Misquote of Bhagavatam and Narada Pancharatra:

Originally posted by varsanp:

Shrimad Bhagwat’s Fourth Chapter explains, ‘Those who find indifference in Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and recognise the oneness in them obtain eternal peace.’ The Eighth Chapter adds, ‘Shiva Brahma and Vishnu are thy manifested forms, which create, maintain and destroy the universe at thy will. Thou is Ishwara who delivers Moksha (Salvation). Thou is Parabrahman (the Supreme Lord).’

 

Narad Pancharatra succinctly states:

 

Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha |

Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi ||

 

‘Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’

 

...............

................

 

Originally posted by varsanp:

Murlidhar,

 

I don't see much point in arguing this out any further. We believe in Lord Swaminarayan and the authenticity of the Vedas and Puranas. Whether they have been interpolated or not, well that could be said of anything including the version of Bhagwat Gita and Shrimad Bhagwat Purnana which is worshipped by ISKON. I could quite easily go on to say that the commentaries by Acharyas of ISKON may not be acurate in my view and I'm sure that you could say the same for scriptures and commentaries of the Swaminarayan Sampraday as our saints have also written commentaries on Bhagwat Gita/Bhagwat etc.

Varsamp,

 

It is not just ISKCON members who will not accept the idea that Narayana and Shiva are one in every respect. Srivaishnavas and other Vaishnavas will never agree with this statement "Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva". I myself am not a member of ISKCON, I am a disciple of Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj. But besides that I can say for certain that all our Vaishnava Acharyas have given a diffent explanation of these sorts of verses equating Vishnu with Shiva from the statements you are presenting.

 

The Vaishnava Acharyas quote many verses in Scripture which say that there is a qualitative difference between Vishu and Shiva - one is a deity connected to tamo-guna, the other is Suddha-sattva. Your Shatanand Swami clearly doesn't agree with the teachings of the Vaishnava Acharyas who say that Vishnu is the supreme Lord and Shiva is a servant of God. Shiva manages the material energy, in association with Maya. Vishnu is sat-chit-ananda Purushottama.

 

Also, a point was explained before as well, that Krishna has many amazing qualities that we do not see displayed even by his other self Lord Narayana, such as his sweet child nature and beauty, and his flute playing. It is because of his beauty that he is the most attractive, and even Laksmi devi desires to be the consort of Sri Krishna. Just go to any Sri Vaishnava temple and ask the devotees about Sri Andal, who is an incarnation of Laksmi Devi herself, and who appeared on Earth and married Lord Sri Venkateshawara. Sri Andal adored the Lord in his Form of Sri Krishna.

 

Anyhow, you are entitled to your beliefs, but the Vaishnava's follow the teachings of the Vaishnava Acharyas, and after reading this statement "Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva" I know that the followers of Swaminarayan are preaching exacly the same philosophical conclusion as Satya Sai Baba.

 

-- Murali

 

 

[This message has been edited by muralidhar (edited 07-26-2002).]

[leyh]

All Vedic literature agrees that Krsna is the source of Brahma, Siva and all other demigods. In the Atharva Veda it is said, "yo brahmanam vidadhati: purvam yo vai vedams ca gapayati sma krsnah.It was Krsna who in the beginning instructed Brahma in Vedic knowledge and who disseminated Vedic knowledge in the past." Then again it is said, "atha puruso ha vai narayano 'kamayata prajah srjeya ity upakramya.Then the Supreme Personality Narayana desired to create living entities." Again it is said:

 

narayanad brahma jayate, narayanad prajapatih prajayate, narayanad indro jayate, narayanad astau vasavo jayante, narayanad ekadasa

rudra jayante, narayanad dvadasadityah.

 

 

"From Narayana, Brahma is born, and from Narayana, the patriarchs are also born. From Narayana, Indra is born, from Narayana the eight Vasus are born, from Narayana the eleven Rudras are born, from Narayana the twelve Adityas are born."

It is said in the same Vedas, brahmanyo devaki-putrah: "The son of Devaki, Krsna, is the Supreme Personality." Then it is said:

 

 

eko vai narayana asin na brahma na isano napo nagni samau neme

dyav-aprthivi na naksatrani na suryah sa ekaki na ramate tasya

dhyanantah sthasya yatra chandogaih kriyamanastakadi-samjnaka

stuti-stomah stomam ucyate.

 

 

"In the beginning of the creation there was only the Supreme Personality Narayana. There was no Brahma, no Siva, no fire, no moon, no stars in the sky, no sun. There was only Krsna, who creates all and enjoys all"

In the many Puranas it is said that Lord Siva was born from the highest, the Supreme Lord Krsna, and the Vedas say that it is the Supreme Lord, the creator of Brahma and Siva, who is to be worshiped. In the Moksa-dharma Krsna also says,

 

prajapatim ca rudram capy aham eva srjami vai tau hi mam na vijanito mama maya-vimohitau. "The patriarchs, Siva and others are created by Me, though they do not know that they are created by Me because they are deluded by My illusory energy." In the Varaha Purana it is also said,

 

narayanah paro devas tasmaj jatas caturmukhah tasmad rudro 'bhavad devah sa ca sarva-jnatam gatah. "Narayana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him Brahma was born, from whom Siva was born."

 

(From purport to Bhagavad-gita 10.8 by His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

 

 

[bhaktajoy]

PANCHVARTAMANA

 

The vow of Panchavartamana (the five vows) means abstinence from alcoholism, meat - eating, stealing, adultery and self - conversion as well as converting others. The saints administer the Panchavartamana to a person who strives for salvation and who wishes to become a member of the Swaminarayan sect. The saints make such a person hold water in his right palm and chant the sharan - mantra (holy verse meant for the moment of the act of surrender) which is as follows:

 

 

Kala Maya Papa Karma Yamadoota Bhayadaham

Shri Krishnadevam sharanam prapanno smi sa patu maama

 

 

The meaning of this holy verse translated into English is

 

that ‘ The fear of Kala (inauspicious Time), Maya (delusions), Papa (sin), Karma (deeds of past life or lives) and Yamadootas (messengers of Lord Yama, the God of Death) haunts me.

 

Lord Swaminarayana I have come to your refuge. O! Lord protect me eternally’. The person is then made to take the vow that he will abstain from alcohol, meat, etc. ( the five things mentioned earlier) throughout his life in order to please Lord Swaminarayana. The person is then made to release the water in his palm onto the ground and then made to wear the kanthi (holy string of basilwood or sandalwood beads). Thus, the sacrament of the Panchavartamana is solemnized. The past sins of a person are washed away by the administering of the Panchavartamana by a saint, on the condition that the person does not ever indulge in any of the five things that he has promised to abstain from. Of all the five things, alcohol is considered most responsible for the degradation of man.

 

1. ALCOHOL

 

The Shikshapatri prohibits the intake of three types of sura (hard - liquor) and eleven types of madhya (light wines; the varieties available today have far exceeded the number eleven). The followers of Swaminarayanism are forbidden the use of alcohol.

 

How can an alcoholic be characterised? An account of the churning of the ocean by the Gods and demons to obtain nectar is found in the Puranas (The word purana literally means ancient. The Purana is a sacred poetical work giving accounts of Gods and men of ancient times. The Puranas are eighteen in number and are supposed to have been composed by Vyasa). The wine thus obtained from the churning of the ocean was taken away by the demons after being unacceptable to the Gods. This itself is the proof as to which kind of persons would like intoxication. It should be seriously considered how one’s nature is transformed after being intoxicated ? Alcohol transforms the Sattvik ( calm and virtuous) qualities into Taamsi (wrathful and dark) qualities and transforms a person into a demon. Alcohol and meat are forbidden in the Shikshapatri. If this notion is accepted by society, expenditure of lakhs and crores of rupees on propoganda can be saved. Morover, the society would comprise of healthy people and Satyayug (the golden age) of peace, tolerance and happiness would prevail.

 

2. MEAT

 

Lord Swaminarayana has said that one should not eat meat even in calamitous times and even if it is the remainder of Yajnas (a sacrificial rite consisting of offerings made as oblations to Gods). It is said in the Shikshapatri that if one’s diet consists of pure food, one’s inner being also attains purity and God dwells only in purity. Many argue that eggs are not non - vegetarian ! It is better to get the answer from the hen herself than from our ownselves. The answer can be found in the behaviour of the hen after she has laid her eggs. If someone lifts one of her eggs, she is disturbed because she fears that her chick will be harmed. Is this not the proof that the egg contains her offspring ? Lord Swaminarayana has said that ‘the consumption of meat gives rise to demonic qualities in a man’. How many sighs of the animals would there be in their meat ! One only needs to see the animals being dragged to the slaughter house and their tantrums as they approaches the gate. Their instinct tells them where and why they are being led. What else could you call such people who contribute to the meaningless slaughter of innocent animals for their food, if not demons?

 

3. STEALING

 

Premananda Swami has said (chori na karni kahuki - which means ‘abstain from stealing of any type).

 

Lord Swaminarayana’s words are:

 

 

Stena karma na kartavyam dharmathamapi kenachita

 

 

The meaning of these words is that not only should one never steal for the sake of his house or selfish purpose, but also not for the sake of Dharma (religious purpose). If one sees lovely flowers in a garden or ripe fruit on a tree which one plucks without the permission of the owner, with the idea of making an offering to God, one will take sin upon himself, while the blessings will be bestowed on the owner of the garden.

 

One should thus, not only refrain from stealing for religious purposes, but also for business purposes, like cheating in terms of weight and measure for monetary benefit or abstaining from work in the work - place. One should also never pick up any unowned thing lying on the road.

 

4. ADULTERY

 

One should never get involved with a woman who is not one’s wife. Shriji Maharaj has clearly said in the Shikshapatri that ‘ men or women followers of Swaminarayanism should never engage in adultery’. The need of this cautious advice is felt a thousand times more in the present age, than it must be at the time when the Shikshapatri was written. The evergrowing advertising media, various types of literature, pictures and cinema are responsible for encouraging adverse effects on the minds of people. A gruhhasta (a householder in the second of the four stages of life) who remains loyal to his wife, is considered to be as holy as a tyagi (one who has renounced the pleasures of life). Shri Hari also voices caution against being in the company of one’s mother, sister or daughter in solitude.

 

‘Partriya sanga ko tyaga’ (avoid the company of a woman other than one’s wife). One whose life is devoid of the commandment, risks the weakening of his mind and becomes a victim of depression. As a result, he is never able to progress in worship, spirituality and the path of good deeds. His only destination is Yamapuri (the city of Yama; hell).

 

5. SELF CONVERSION AND CONVERTING OTHERS

 

‘Bin khapto nahi khat’. These words of the Nand saints means that one should neither convert himself nor should one convert others. This applies not only to religion but also to varnashrama. One who does not eat pure food cannot possess a pure inner - being; one’s mind will be like the food one eats. The mind is defiled by eating food in restaurants, where there is no trace of cleanliness and purity, where plates, bowls and spoons used by diseased persons are just dipped in water to be used again and grains,spices,etc. are of substandard quality. When a person eats such food, not only are his thoughts polluted, but also his health is endangered.

 

--

These are the five vows of the Swaminarayana sect. A faithful devotee of Lord Swaminarayana must follow adopt these vows lovingly and whole - heartedly, only then can he be called a satsangi (a true follower of the Swaminarayana sect).

[gHari]

I thought it was interesting if not downright perceptive and frank that Swaminarayan when he defines his very strict rules limiting the association of males and females that he always includes effeminate males with the females. One must be careful not to be touched by a female or effeminate male, etc, etc. His strictness with women and effeminate males reminded me of Sri Caitanya.

 

He presented that advaita was simply another vantage point, although his own philosophy was closer to that of Sri Ramanujacarya.

 

I found reading his 212 rules in his Shikshapatri beneficial - like a recap. I would like to read his catalogued lectures, but it appears we have offended his disciples here.

 

His initiated name was originally SAHAJANAND SWAMI, but after he gave that 'mahamantra' "Swaminarayan" to a follower, he became known by that mantra. I found it interesting that a close associate was called Nityananda das.

[Guest guest]

Jay Satchidanand

I have read with interest the discussions surrounding the authenticity of Swaminarayan movement.

I get the impression of an element of arrogance in both the swaminarayans and certain other vaishnavas.

Myself, I have had many opportunities to learn about the Swaminarayan philosohpy.

It is true that many of them regard Swaminarayan or Sahajanand Swami as the incarnator supreme - the source that exists in 'Akshardhama' through whom the incarnations manifest.

It is also the case that many of the followers in the sect regard Swaminarayan as another incarnation of Shree Krishna - in a sense it is Vasudev Krshna visiting the earth once again.

In the final case, there are followers of the Swaminarayan sect who consider Swaminarayan as a preacher or guru/ acharya who showed them the path to reaching Krshna.

Having been to the original sect's (not BAPS) temples which were consecrated by Swaminarayan I have noticed that almost all had deities of Radhika-Krhshna - hence maybe it is a Vaishnava sampraday.

Professor Raymond Williams (himself a devout Christian) did a thorough objective analysis of the sect in his book "Swaminarayan Hinduism" and touches on the points we have mentioned in this forum thus far.

I am still somewhat open minded to draw a conclusion about the Swaminarayan sect. To dismiss the possibility that Swaminarayan is an avatar would be foolish by any Vaishnav because I remember listening to a lecture in Brooklyn where the bhakta said that Keshava told Arjun that "you and I have take countless births" or something along those lines. Hence God has no restriction to the amount of incarnations He takes.

I, myself, feel that Swaminarayan did not openly pronounce Himself God. He was a guru who taught ahimsa and devotion to Krshna. Once people got closer to Him, I think He revealed Himself as God (Prof Williams mentions this in His book). Maybe further on, Swaminarayan then revealed Himself as the source of incarnations.

I like the point that everyone will claim their ishtadev is supreme as will be the case of swaminarayans and iskcon ppl alike.

However, I think the discussion should be of not 'who is supreme' but of whether Swaminarayan can be accepted as an incarnation or be dismissed like the other 'come and go' Gods such as Asarama Babu, Sai Baba, 'Kalki Bhagwan'(talked about in another thread), Pramukh Swami, Rajneesh etc etc.

 

- Sanjay