Prahlad Posted September 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Hari Bol! Thanks Sanjay. I think the book you mention is "Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism", I have just ordered a copy of it. Did Srila Prabhupada have any opinion on SwamiNarayana movement? Also, is there anything in their philosophies which severely contradicts our beliefs? If anything, I have found that some issues are very much in parallel to what we preach and practice apart from male and female segregation in their temples. Who is their ultimate authority, at this present time? -P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Narad Pancharatra succinctly states: Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha | Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi || Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu. ----------------- More scriptural evidence is posted at: http://www.indiadivine.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=430&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 In the Gita and other Upanishads we read that the jiva or individual soul is Brahman. In other places in the Upanishads we read that Brahman is the highest Absolute Being, the Supreme God. Does this mean that the Upanishads are telling us that every individual soul is equal with God in every way? Is every dog in the street one and the same with God? The Vaishnava Acharyas say NO. The Vaishnava Acharyas also say that those verses in the shastra where Shiva is said to be one with Sri Vishnu are speaking of Shiva being one with the Lord in a limited sense. Sri Vishnu is immersed in the suddha-sattva atmosphere of the transcendental world called Vaikuntha or Goloka; Shiva is the consort of the Goddess Maya (Parvati, Durga, Bhavani, Uma, Ma Kali), who is the Mother and Protector of this world. Shiva is described in many places in the shastra as a guna-avatara associated with tamo-guna. Shiva is a guna-avatara of Narayana. If the faithful devotees of Swaminarayan think Shiva, Vishnu and Swaminarayan are one and the same then they are entitled to their beliefs. But this Swaminarayan faith is teaching a different message from what Sri Ramanujacharya and Sri Chaitanyadev taught... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 The Swaminarayan (Uddhav) sampraday does not believe that Shiva and Purushottam Bhagwan are one. The shloka that the Shikshapatri is referring to talks about Virat Narayan and the Narayan involved within the cosmic process. Purushottam Bhagwan incites the cosmic evolution through Brahman who inturn activates maya/prakriti. From the two emerge Pradhan and Purusha (refer Srimad Bhagwatam) from whom mahat-tatva and the 24 elements come. From these elements the body of Virat Narayan or Maha Vishnu is born who in turn creates Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar. In this sense 'Narayan' and 'Shankar' are at one - not as Lord Supreme in His divine abode who instigates the entire evolutionary process. It would be advisable to appreciate what the philosophies say before dismissing them out of sheer arrogance. As followers of the Vedic dharma we should show tolerance and the want to learn about verious mutts; beit dvaita, advaita, kevaladvaita or vishishtadvaita. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 Dear Guest, I do feel you are right to say that it is not good to be arrogant or to be dismissive of the devotees of Swaminarayan. I have dealings with Gujerati people in my local area who are devotees of Swaminarayan. They are very good devotees and I have a lot of respect for their ideals. Yet on this thread persons have insisted that Swaminarayan is superior to Krishna, and these aggressive things they say are supposed to have originated from Swaminarayan himself and his closest followers. What Ishtadeva should a person adore? That is for the individual to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 All you people here discussing about Krishna and Swaminarayan. I am a Swaminarayan satsangi. I am also a devotee of lord Krishna, he is my ishta-dev. I have some of your postings and I would like to make the following things clear. And my views actually have some meaning because I pray to Krishna and Swaminarayan as one and I go to both ISKCON and ISSO temples. 1. Krishna was an avtar of God. Though he was a Puran avtar. 2. Swaminarayan is the cause of all incarnations. How? He didn't go through the process an avatar takes, which Purush enters Virat Narayan(Vishnu) and Vasudev enters Virat and the avtar takes place. Shriji Maharaj came as he was. 3. The Shikshapatri, Vachanamrit, and Bhagvad Gita are all online as follows: Vachnamrit and SHikshapatri-http://www.swaminarayansatsang.com/scriptures/index.asp Bhagavad Gita- http://www.asitis.com/ 4. For those that don't believe in Swaminarayan, email me at chicagopeide23@ or instant message on AOL or on this screenname chicagopride23 Since I go 2 ISKCON and ISSO and I pray to Swaminarayan and Krishna, talking to me will be worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 varsanp, are u the same varsanp on the swaminarayan world forum? its me, chicagopride23. anyways, brahma, vishnu, and shiva exist in this ONE universe. there are multiple unverses. therefore, there are infinite trinities. but since vasudev enter into vishnu and gives him life, vishnu CAN be CONSIDERED a form of god. and dont say krishna is avtari because there is NO scripture that says that. i would be more than happy if he was because he is my ishtadev but hes not. just no this, GOD is ONE. all forms are full and manifest of him. God has a power, shakti, called akshar. he dwells in akshar as akshar acts as his dham. so akshar is skshardham. it is in the middle of golok. i dont no if golok can be called the supreme abode because go means cow and lok means abode. the abode of cows. that refers to leelas of avtar krishna. but krishna, not as the avtar, is beyond raslila. he gives moksh to hari bhaktos. so dont think when you go to vaikunth or golok that god only dances with cows and radha all day. god is much more than raslila. hes is the supreme controller of all universes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 what is the website address for the swaminarayan world forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anveshan Posted March 11, 2003 Report Share Posted March 11, 2003 For & on behalf of and upon the instructions of the Omniscient Brahman, I have floated global tenders from qualified bidders . Interested aspirants are invited to apply or nominate preferred avataras. Please see my Tender Notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2003 Report Share Posted March 12, 2003 Swaminarayan world forum http://www.narnarayan.net/html/forum/ Also, Sai Baba didn't ever say he was God or a demigod. he preached that there is one god, who's the source of all. Then it was later revealed that he was the 1st of 3 avtars of Shiva to come. The 1st was him, which was Shiva. The 2dn avtar, present Satya Sai Baba is an avtar of Shiv-Parvati, then the last 1 thats yet 2 come is only of Parvati. So in fact, no one has ever disclosed such info as Swaminarayan because Swaminarayan IS god and not a fony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2003 Report Share Posted March 13, 2003 chicagopride23: >>2. Swaminarayan is the cause of all incarnations. How? He didn't go through the process an avatar takes, which Purush enters Virat Narayan(Vishnu) and Vasudev enters Virat and the avtar takes place. Shriji Maharaj came as he was.<< Lord Swaminarayan's Shikshapatri (written by himself): 108. This Isha is Lord Shri Krishna, is Supreme Brahman, is Bhagwan and is the source of all incarnations. http://www.swaminarayan.nu/sampraday/shiksha.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2003 Report Share Posted March 13, 2003 All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga! All Glories to Srila Prabhupada Hare Krishna I have studied the sikshapatri and from what I understand even Sajanand Swami states that Krishna is the original godhead. He writes: Ishwar dwells in Jiva by His indwelling and controlling power as Jiva resides in the heart. He is supreme and sovereign. He is dispenser of fruits of all action of all beings. (107) Who is Ishwar? He is Shri Krishna who is Para Brahma Bhagwan Purushottam and our most cherished Deity. He is worthy to be worshipped by us all. He is the cause of all manifestations and incarnations. (108) And I was reading somewhere that Swaminarayan isnt authorized Sampradaya. Well yes it is. Swaminarayan's guru's name was Ramananda Swami, who belonged to the Sri Sampradaya, or the Ramanujan Branch of Vaishanvism. Swaminarayan writes: Vishistadvaita is our approved system of philosophy, Goloka is the most desired highest realm of our permanent home. There the rendering of loving service of the Lord with the self, identified with Brahma is our conception of Moksha. (121) Again and Vishistadvaita is Ramanujan Philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodo Posted March 13, 2003 Report Share Posted March 13, 2003 Dear Vaishnavas, It is my duty here to put clearness on this ridicolous Swaminarayan topic as follows: 1) Swaminarayan is just a cheater-/bogus pseudo-spiritualist-/guru; an envious naga/snake hidden in human form I just sensed that so called Swaminarayan guy and by Lord Gauranga's guide I could easily sense Swaminaryan's svarup and energy which is the one of an envious NAGA/SNAKE. That's it, nothing more than the same ugly svarup and energy of another similar rebell-soul as Sai Baba is. 2) All Vishnu-tattva incarnations have an eternal blissful/beautiful spiritual body wherever they reside/appear (spiritual or material world) and not a material ugly body as the one of Swaminarayan or Sai Baba. 3) Clarification for muralidhar and her quote 'After all, when that witch Putana came to poison and kill Krishna by putting her poisonous breast nipples in his mouth, baby Krishna killed her evil nature and gave her a new life in the next world. He made that lady into one of his nursemaids in her next life. Where will we ever find anyone as merciful as Sri Krishna?' It is in fact truth that when Lord Bhagavan Krishna killed Putana, as the 1st demon he started to kill in his lilas, he liberated her but that liberation was just temporary as that weak being/witch is currently still acting as demon on our material world. The demons killed by Krishna in his lilas are not eternally liberated as Krishna can not force their envious children to come back to Him when their envious heart don't want this. By the mercy of Krishna's pure devotees with Krishna's guide, those asuras will sometime be able to have their envious hearts transformed into love and than Lord Vishnu and Srimati Lakshmidevi will re-accept them back in Vaikuntha. 4) Putana has never been Krishna's nursemaid or will eternally be as her svarup is the one of a naga and therefore will never have the chance to associate with Lord Krishan in Goloka but will have to serve Lord Vishnu and Srimati Lakshmidevi in the dasya-rasa in Vaikuntha. It is important to put here clearness on those topics, as I sense throughout some of the posted messages, that Putana, is still able to influence people here with her enviousness vs. Krishna and His pure bhaktas. Sincerely, Frodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2003 Report Share Posted March 13, 2003 If all Vedic literature agreed than we would not have this on going arguments People have different Istadev through which they worship the allmighty we should just let it be Jai Shree Krishna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodo Posted March 13, 2003 Report Share Posted March 13, 2003 Guest, As the vedic sastras clearly state people are requested to worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna and His authentic extensions (Balarama, Vishnu, Rama etc.) as only those form the Allmighty. It is not a question of letting us decide who we take as Allmighty as it is clear who is the Allmighty. Regards, Frodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 Maharaj refers to Purushottam Narayan Krishna, the cause of all incarnations. Not the incarnation Krishna. And Swaminarayasn shastras say that Akshardham is also called Golok. And Maharaj was setting an example for a true satsangi to behave and he chose the Krishna form to make the example of. Why? Because Krishna was the greatest incarantion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 Why did Krishna say to Arjuna on the battlefied of Kurukshetra that he was the Supreme Personality of Godhead ( the source of all incarnations ). Provide some evidence that Krishna is an incarnation of Purushottam Narayan. The ball is in your court./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 And what makes you think Maharaj wasn't an incarnation of Krishna? Because he says so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 modification to last post: Because he says so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodo Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 Guest, I order you to stop writing anything speculative about Swaminarayan, an incarnated naga/snake that lived some time ago on planet bhumi and confused envious souls that he is Vishnu-tattva although he eternally belongs to the weakest race ever existing, the race of snakes/nagas. Also the two weakest fallan angels ever existing, Maya-/Putana-/Manuela Deverell naga and Kali/Naval Kishor naga try to convince others of their wisdom although they do not have any wisdom at all as the base quality to get or have wisdom is to have own strenghts but all fallen angels, especially the two first fallen angels, Maya and Kali, do NOT have any strenghts at all. All fallen angels will have to be punished by Yamaraj, most of the fallen angels, incl. Swaminarayan, Osho, Krishnmurti, Freud, Jung, Yogananda, Blavatsky, Bailey etc. have already visited Yama's hellish realms and have been punished accordingly. The remaining rebells that are still incarnated on planet bhumi will have to be judged by Yamaraj, under Vishnu's guidance, as soon as the respective live force gathered/sucked off from others is dissolved and therefore they will have to leave the physical body towards direction Yamaraj as the Yamadutas are keen to take them to Yamaraj after they leave the physical body. Frodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 seems to me frodo that YOU ARE YAMRAJ - already judging on who is condemnded to hell and who will be... your belief in krshna is extremely weak, which is why you have become so defensive and decided to resort to derogotary remarks about others. What qualifies you to say that Swami Narayana was a snake? I myslef have great admiration for his work and teachings. Read his shikshapatri and other scriptures and you will be enlightened as to what a great soul he was. it is another issue if his followers decide to worship him - but you simply cannot condemn him to being a snake for he was undoubtedly a great soul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodo Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 Guest, I am not Yamaraj but Yamaraj is a very good friend of mine and basically of all honest devotees. Yamaraj is doing a wonderful service for Lord Krishna to punish all rebells from their sinful activities. Having a close contact with Yamaraj and therefore to Lord Krishna I can get valuable information from them on who has already be punished and who is still outstanding. Qualities of a Vaishnava is to be humil in the heart; this quality is sufficient to have all their inherent abilities activated by Lord Gauranaga to easily determine who is a Vaishnava and who is not. In your case, as I've already mentioned previously, you are in the category of fallen angels, especially being the weakest of all the fallen angels! Fallen angels in human form on planet bhumi are mostly hidden in human form to hide their original ugly form of a snake/naga. Only snakes appreciate what other snakes do and think because snakes are known to be very envious about wisdom and bearer of wisdom (bhaktas). Although purified snakes/nagas can also be considered Vaishnavas they will eternally keep their naga svarup in Vaikuntha too. Maya-/Putana-/Manuela Deverell what do you actually want to achieve with your continous efforts in your life with the certitude of having lost everything you very hard tried to achieve throughout millions of millions of years? Yes, you will soon be pushed by Lord Vishnu to leave this body and than the Yamudatas will easily catch you and bring you to Yamaraj for your punishment! You could avoid deep fear and suffering at the upcoming hellish residence if you would have stopped continuing to manipulate others by not willing to accept the truth as it is that you or any other eternal children of God can never become God, in your specific case to become Lakshmi-devi. All eternal God forms (male and female) are eternally defined and noone eternally belonging to the category of children of God can become God or a consort of God (with the only exceptin of Parvati-devi who is actually an eternal child of God but is also a gopi and has Krishna as consort too) as your rebel heart suddenly tried to become or replace Lakshmi-devi. Also the rasas are eternally defined, therefore your eternal rasa will always be the dasya rasa, loving servitude service to Lord Vishnu and Srimati Lakshmi-devi without any chances to sometime get in the position of a gopi or goddess of forture to have God as husband. Sincerely, Frodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 So those who worship Lord Siva Lord Bramaha Devi maa must have completely got it wrong.They must be reading something other than Vedic literature but hey we must go on arguing about it instead of perfecting our own sadhna Jai Shree Krishna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaishnava_das108 Posted March 14, 2003 Report Share Posted March 14, 2003 So those who worship Lord Siva Lord Bramaha Devi maa must have completely got it wrong.They must be reading something other than Vedic literature but hey we must go on arguing about it instead of perfecting our own sadhna I note that you end your post with "Jai Shree Krishna." This is most appreciable. Well, Krishna Himself states that worshippers of demigods/goddesses have got it wrong, and he says this in the Bhagavad-gita, which is surely above Vedic literature being spoken by the Lord Himself? Else, how would you explain Krishna's statements against demigod worship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2003 Report Share Posted March 16, 2003 In reply to "else how would you explain Krishna's statement against Devta worship?" I cannot begin to explain anything for the Lord's dealings are weird, wonderful and unfathomable. I am merely a pawn in his vast creation, all I can do is observe and hopefully learn. We must learn to be tolerant and respect others, after all we are all children of God and we all have different degrees of understanding. As long as I have desires and hate in me, I have no chance of progress. In Bhagvad Gita, Krishna says Chap 3 Tx 11 The Devtas, being pleased by sacrifices, will also please you, and thus, by cooperation between men and Devtas, benediction/the supreme you will achieve Chap 10 Tx 17 + 18 Arjun asks O Krishna, O supreme mystic, how shall I contantly think of You, and how shall I know You? In what various forms are You to be remembered, O Supreme Personality of Godhead? O Janardana, again please describe in detail the mystic power of Your opulences. I am never satiated in hearing about You, for the more I hear the more I want to taste the nectar of Your work Chap 10 Tx 21 Krishna replies Of the Adityas I am Vishnu......... Tx 22 Vedanam sama-vedo 'smi......... Tx 23 Rudranam Sankaras casmi. (in many Puranas, Lord Siva is described as Supreme) Tx 34 Among women I am fame (Shakti), fortune (Laxmi), fine speach (Saraswati) (there is a Devi Puran) Chap 4 Tx 11 As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. EVERYONE follows My path in all respects, O Parth (Arjun) I am not saying that you worship Devi's and Devta's but for those who want to , it is their choice. Least of all we should avoid comitting an apardh against those wonderful personalities who can also assist us in our spiritual progress Jai Shree Krishna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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