Swaminarayan- Krshna incarnation?

[Kishalaya]

Hari Bol Prabhus!

 

Those who have problem regarding our preaching Gouranga

to be avatar of Sri Hari may have a look into a more

scholarly work at:

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vaisnava_sampradayas_fs.html

 

and compare our arguments vis-a-vis others.

 

Your servant,

Kishalaya

 

[Kishalaya]

"and compare our arguments vis-a-vis others."

 

I seek apology from anybody from any sampradaya if they

have been offended by the above statement. It was meant

only to focus on the debate that we further for Gouranga's

divinity.

 

Your servant,

Kishalaya

[Guest guest]

An interesting post with scriptural references on the integrity of Swaminarayan.

As Vaishnavs, shouldnt we have faith in Hindu scriptures - I think ignorance and narrow mindedness display a form arrogance and ego, negative qualities we should refrain from.

The scriptural evedence proves that the Swaminarayn Sampraday is in fact bona-fide.Swaminarayan is proved to be an Avtar, the sect follows the Ramanuja philosophy of Visshistadvaita and thier linage is traced back as far Uddavji.

Freinds if we start to doubt our own scriptures then we are no different from Muslims and Christians who do exactly the same.

 

[Guest guest]

The spiritual abode of Swaminarayan is called " Akshardham".Here devotees are occupied in loving devotion to the supreme Lord Purshottam, and experience undescribable bliss in rendering service to the Lord.

[Guest guest]

They don't say Swaminarayan is an avatar. They say he is Bhagavan, the source of Krishna, Rama and other incarnations. However, it is a fact he was a normal human being. I think he was more like Jesus, proclaiming to be non-different from God, but not God Himself. Plus, all scriptures in the sampradaya were written by him and his followers. How unbiased is that? What if I start proclaiming I am God, does that mean I am telling the truth? The swaminarayan sampradaya is certainly not bona-fide according to vedic scriptures.

[Guest guest]

the abode of swaminarayan is called akshar dham.

 

gunatitanand swami is believed to be personified avatar of this akshar dham.

 

here is the first instance to my knowlege in vedic culture where an abode incarnates.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Freinds if we start to doubt our own scriptures then we are no different from Muslims ".

 

it is unfortunate that all muslims blindly follow koran.

that is the reason we have terrorists and lost vedic land sot muslims.

 

vedic literature says:

sansyAtmA vinasyati.

 

doubt is a step to seek truth.

but the truth must be found

and then one has to live by the truth.

 

krishna says:

shraddhAvan labhate gyAnam

 

some faith is needed in scriptures, gurus, and sadhus.

 

prabhupada recommends never to question the vedas,

but to accept all of it.

 

 

[Kishalaya]

There are 2 points here:

 

1. Not falling in trap of the unknown

2. Not criticising the unknown

 

Both require through research. However the research should

not be done with a view for seeking the truth. Those with

ulterior motives will be destoryed by Krishna.

 

Your servant,

Kishalaya

[Kishalaya]

"However the research should

not be done with a view for seeking the truth."

 

remove the *not*

 

However the research should be done with a view for seeking

the truth .

[anadi]

1. Can you tell which part of the spiritual world is the akshardham?

2. Please tell about the type of loving relations Sri Svaminarayan taught, that the jiva may have with Him.

3. Please give some examples from his prakat lila concerning those loving realtions.

[Guest guest]

I am not Swaminarayan devotee, so I can't comment on your last two questions. However, concerning your first question...Akshardham is supposed to be in the center of Goloka, Krsna's Abode.

 

If your interested in learning more...here is the sampradaya's discussion forum: http://swaminarayanonline.com/phpBB2/

[Guest guest]

"gunatitanand swami is believed to be personified avatar of this akshar dham.here is the first instance to my knowlege in vedic culture where an abode incarnates."

 

You are right this is the first instance in Vedic culture where an abode incarnates, but at the same time you are misguided as this is the philosophy followed by BAPS, who have nothing to do with the original and authentic Swaminarayan Sampraday, in which this philospshy is non-existent.Swaminarayan Bhagwan did not promote this philosophy.

[Guest guest]

"They don't say Swaminarayan is an avatar. They say he is Bhagavan, the source of Krishna, Rama and other incarnations. However, it is a fact he was a normal human being. I think he was more like Jesus, proclaiming to be non-different from God, but not God Himself. Plus, all scriptures in the sampradaya were written by him and his followers. How unbiased is that? What if I start proclaiming I am God, does that mean I am telling the truth? The swaminarayan sampradaya is certainly not bona-fide according to vedic scriptures."

 

Followers of Krsna say he is the cause of Avtars, followers of Rama say that he is the source and so on. Isnt it natural for devotees of different sect to establish a solid faith in thier chosen Lord? Otherwise what is the point of devoting yourself to a God you think that is not the greatest??.

 

How can you say he was a normal man? What "fact" do you have to back up this claim?? Evidence from the Vedas has been provided proving that Swaminarayan was an Avtar(check previous posts), and the millions that also beleived in Him, including great great Sants who we are mere material germs in comparison too and who were more spiritually advanced then we will ever be.For your information the Bhagvad Gita, Vidur Niti, Yagnavalkya Smriti, Srimad Bhagvat amongst others are all core scriptures of the Swaminarayan sampraday , along with scriptures wrtieen by the great Sants during Swaminarayans existence, have you read these scriptures?If you do you will realise how great his followers were, imagine how great Swaminaaryan must have been himself??

Again you are claiming it is not bona-fide. If an Avtar establishes a sampraday with acharya's directly form His family, you say it is not bona-fide? even before Swamianrayan arrivals the Guru of the sampraday was Ramanand Swami, an incarnation of Rammanuja Acharya and Udhavji, hence our sampraday is called the Udhhav samprday following the Vishistaadvaita philosphy.yet you cliam it is not bona-fide!!! So much ignorance and narrow mindedness is laughable!!!

[Guest guest]

>>Followers of Krsna say he is the cause of Avtars,

 

"Krsna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes." (Brahma-samhita 5.1)

 

 

>>Otherwise what is the point of devoting yourself to a God you think that is not the greatest??

 

There is only one God, He is Krsna. He has an infinite number of manifestations and avatars, i.e. Rama, Jesus, Lord Chaitanya

 

 

>>How can you say he was a normal man? What "fact" do you have to back up this claim??

 

Lord Swaminaryan did not have an eternal blissful spiritual body. He had a material body composed of the five perishable elements like any human being. Therefore he is not Bhagavan, but possibly could be an avatar. If you would like to see his teeth, asthi, hair, and nails, you can do so here:

http://www.swaminarayan.org/lordswaminarayan/holyrelics

 

>>Evidence from the Vedas has been provided proving that Swaminarayan was an Avtar(check previous posts),

 

All Swaminarayan satsangis proclaim He is Bhagavan, the source of all incarnations, including Krsna, Rama, etc. Are you saying differently?

 

 

>>and the millions that also beleived in Him, including >>great great Sants who we are mere material germs in >>comparison too and who were more spiritually advanced >>then we will ever be.

 

The number of followers does not make it a bona-fide sampradaya. Plus, ~99% devotees are Gujarati Indians that are born into the religion.

 

 

>>For your information the Bhagvad Gita, Vidur Niti, >>Yagnavalkya Smriti, Srimad Bhagvat amongst others are all >>core scriptures of the Swaminarayan sampraday ,

 

What do the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam say about Krsna?

 

 

>>along with scriptures wrtieen by the great Sants during >>Swaminarayans existence, have you read these scriptures?

 

I have read the previous scriptures you mentioned, as well as the Shikshapatri and Vachanamrut.

 

 

>>If you do you will realise how great his followers were, >>imagine how great Swaminaaryan must have been himself??

 

I have no doubt that his followers are great. Several of my family members are devotees of Lord Swaminarayan and belong to the BAPS sect.

 

Lord Swaminarayan was one of the greatest Krsna bhaktas in modern times.

 

 

>>Again you are claiming it is not bona-fide. If an Avtar >>establishes a sampraday with acharya's directly form His >>family, you say it is not bona-fide?

 

First establish that he is an avatar first, or wait... is it Bhagavan?

 

 

>>even before Swamianrayan arrivals the Guru of the >>sampraday was Ramanand Swami, an incarnation of Rammanuja >>Acharya and Udhavji, hence our sampraday is called the >>Udhhav samprday following the Vishistaadvaita philosphy. >>yet you cliam it is not bona-fide!!! So much ignorance >>and narrow mindedness is laughable!!!

 

The Swaminarayan Sampradaya has its roots in the Ramanuja Sampradaya, but soon broke away. It became a cult that worshipped Guru as God.

 

http://www.iskcon.org/main/twohk/philo/roots/apasam/karta.htm

 

Of course, you will disagree with whatever I replied above. The Brahma Sampradaya will state the Krsna is Supreme and Lord Narayana is an avatar. While the Ramanuja Sampradaya will state the Lord Narayana is Supreme and Krsna is an avatar. Both Krsna and Narayana are equal, but the sastras state that Krsna is of a higher rasa and is the source of all incarnations, the Original Supreme Personality of Godhead.

[Guest guest]

"Lord Swaminaryan did not have an eternal blissful spiritual body. He had a material body composed of the five perishable elements like any human being. Therefore he is not Bhagavan, but possibly could be an avatar. If you would like to see his teeth, asthi, hair, and nails, you can do so here"

 

This comment I found very amusing!!!Are you impying that Lord Krsna in fact had a 'ghost' body without no hair, teeth and nails??????

Again just as you beleive Lord Chaitanya to be an avatar on the basis of scriptural evidence, followers of Swaminarayan beleive the same!! We have scriptural evidence that proves he is an avatar!!!

 

"All Swaminarayan satsangis proclaim He is Bhagavan, the source of all incarnations, including Krsna, Rama, etc. Are you saying differently?"

 

All devotees of Rama, Jesus and Bhudda, even SHiva also make this claim!!!!I am not saying differently I am only promoting Lord Swaminarayans integrity as an avtar , which you are rigously contesting!!Please stay in the 'context' of this discusion!!!!

 

"The number of followers does not make it a bona-fide sampradaya. Plus, ~99% devotees are Gujarati Indians that are born into the religion."

 

Agian you are drifting from the point!!I have explained how the sampraday is bona-fide already, I didnt say it had anything to do with the number of followers!!.Yes 99% of devotees are born into the religion but what about the millions that entered the sampraday in its origin??I suppose they were all ignorant and blind, even though were great great saints who followed Krsna who accepeted Swaminarayan as their Lord.........What could have caused such as change??Black magic??

 

 

"What do the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam say about Krsna? "

 

No one is contesting the status of Lord Krishna,again you are failing to grasp the point that our samprday does not consist only of scriptures written by Smwainarayan and his followers!!!

 

 

"I have read the previous scriptures you mentioned, as well as the Shikshapatri and Vachanamrut"

 

I seriously doubt this claim otherwise you would not hold such a dergortary view of the Swaminarayan sampraday.

 

"I have no doubt that his followers are great. Several of my family members are devotees of Lord Swaminarayan and belong to the BAPS sect.Lord Swaminarayan was one of the greatest Krsna bhaktas in modern times. "

 

And so was Lord Chaitanya...but hold on he is an avtar sorry!!!!

 

"First establish that he is an avatar first, or wait... is it Bhagavan? "

 

Again this is not the point of this discusion because you have been denying, despite the presented evidence the auhtority of Swaminarayan as an avtar.Will a devotee of Ram say that Ram is an avtar and not bhagwan...............

 

 

"The Swaminarayan Sampradaya has its roots in the Ramanuja Sampradaya, but soon broke away. It became a cult that worshipped Guru as God"

 

Can u explain how exactly it broke away??Swaminarayan was not only a guru but an avtar as well, which has been proved with scriptural evidence!!!BAPS is a cult , very true , but the authentic Swaminarayan samprday worshipps Swamianrayan and other manifestaitons of Lord Purshottam.......so the question of not being boa-fide is really an ignorant one..........

 

"Of course, you will disagree with whatever I replied above. The Brahma Sampradaya will state the Krsna is Supreme and Lord Narayana is an avatar. While the Ramanuja Sampradaya will state the Lord Narayana is Supreme and Krsna is an avatar. Both Krsna and Narayana are equal, but the sastras state that Krsna is of a higher rasa and is the source of all incarnations, the Original Supreme Personality of Godhead."

 

I only disagree with your disagreemnt of the shastra's.You deny the respect Swaminarayan should command as an avatar simply because you follow another sect.This is not Vaishnavism. You keep claiming its not bona-fide when its been proved beyond doubt that it is!!!.

I have the topmost respect for Vaishnav's, I even regard my self as a Vaishnav because I follow the exact same principles and scriptures , the only difference being the chosen Lord to worship.I am certain he is in the least an incarnation of Purshottam , which makes him worthy of worship and meditaiton.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear guest,

 

Lord Swaminarayan could possibly be an avatar. However, with the very little evidence provided by satsangis, it is questionable. If you can provide further evidence from sastras of his prediction, it would be really helpful.

 

My contention is with satsangis saying he is Bhagavan. They don't say he is avatar but instead avatari.

[Guest guest]

"Lord Swaminarayan could possibly be an avatar. However, with the very little evidence provided by satsangis, it is questionable. If you can provide further evidence from sastras of his prediction, it would be really helpful.

My contention is with satsangis saying he is Bhagavan. They don't say he is avatar but instead avatari."

 

Lord Swaminarayan is an avatar, there is no doubt.Please refer to the previous post that provides scriputral evidence. Lord Chaitanya's prediction is also questionable,I even know of many Vaishnavs that deny him the stauts of an avatar.You say your contention is with satsangi's who say he is avatrai well in that case you must conetest with Shivi'tes, followers of Rama and Maha Ganesh as they all belive thier Lord is the supreme cause!!. Besides the key to the claim of Lord Swaminarayan being called avtari lies in the fact that he wasnt predicted as all the other 24 AVATARS were, because thats exactly what they were.This is why there is so limited mention of Lord Swaminarayan as Avtar. If you understand the Ramanuja philopshy then you will comprehend that Narayan is the ultimate cause, not Krsna, and this is the philosphy followed by Satsangis, and they beleive Swaminarayan was Narayan himself. Tough to grasp huh? Well not every soul has the chance to reach such advanced realisation, it requires millions of punyaas from birth after birth to be given the oppurtunity to worship Narayan himself.

The fact is we follow different schools of thought, both are bona-fide and both in the least consist of worhsip of a manifestation of the Narayan. We have identical scriptures, caste rules, bhakti rules etc so why can we not respect each others samprday without questioning , despite being provided with evidence?

[Guest guest]

>>Lord Swaminarayan is an avatar, there is no doubt

 

>>Besides the key to the claim of Lord Swaminarayan being called avtari lies in the fact that he wasnt predicted as all the other 24 AVATARS were, because thats exactly what they were

 

Avatar or Avatari, have you decided yet? I'm not predicted as one of the 24 avatars, does that make me Bhagavan?

 

Krsna is Purushottam Narayana. Lord Swaminarayan said in the Shikshapatri.

 

Slok Number : 108

 

"And that Ishwara is Lord Shree Krishna, who is Parabrahman Purushottam and our most cherished deity. He is worthy of worship by us all. He is the source of all incarnations."

 

The belief that Lord Swaminarayan is Purushottama Narayan was started by his followers. Lord Jesus Christ said he was non-different from his Father, but never said He was the Father. Similarly, Lord Swaminarayan was a great devotee of Krsna (Father).

 

 

[Guest guest]

You speak as if you have full knowledge of the swaminarayan sampraday, when in fact your ignorance is worthy of pity.

 

By quoting the Srimad Bhagat I can prove god to be formless - verses alone do not constitute the proof my friend.

 

First read the swamianrayan scriptures then form opinions on what swaminarayan taught and what his followers did

[Guest guest]

One aspect of God is formless. Proving so doesn't say much.

 

I have read the Shikshapatri and Vachanamrut, can you tell me where I can obtain Lord Swaminarayan's other scriptures on the internet?

[Guest guest]

"Avatar or Avatari, have you decided yet?

 

Its interesting how you avoid areas of discusion in which you are clearly struggling to make your point, and insist on going over the same point over and over again. You must be a very very young person.

 

Why are you so concerned with regards to what I think Swaminarayan is? Am I an authorative source?Are you going to use my opnions as refernces, just like the Sastra's?Ive said this before and I will say it agian, followers of Rama, Shiva, Maha Ganesh etc all believe thier Lord is Avtari.........are you going to contest thier beleif??

 

 

"I'm not predicted as one of the 24 avatars, does that make me Bhagavan?"

 

Again another statement highlighting you constrained intellectual development. How can you be Bhagwan, what have you achieved that suggests this?. Lord Swaminarayan established Ekantik Dhrama, covverted and gave moksha to millions of devotees, had perfect conrtol over his senses, put devotee's into nirvikalpa samadhi just by his sight....ummm now where do you come into this?Please re-read vachanamrut and shikshaptri, and try to digest the content.Only then will you realise why and how Swaminarayan was and is Bhagwan.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Its interesting how you avoid areas of discusion in which you are clearly struggling to make your point, and insist on going over the same point over and over again. You must be a very very young person."

 

 

If you continue with the personal attacks and insults, then I'm afraid a rational discussion between the two of us cannot occur.

 

 

"Again another statement highlighting you constrained intellectual development. How can you be Bhagwan, what have you achieved that suggests this?. Lord Swaminarayan established Ekantik Dhrama, covverted and gave moksha to millions of devotees, had perfect conrtol over his senses, put devotee's into nirvikalpa samadhi just by his sight....ummm now where do you come into this?Please re-read vachanamrut and shikshaptri, and try to digest the content.Only then will you realise why and how Swaminarayan was and is Bhagwan."

 

Lord Jesus Christ did all of the above, does that make him Bhagavan? There are differences between the different types of avatars (purusa-avataras, lila-avataras, guna-avataras, manvantara-avataras, yuga-avataras, saktyavesa-avataras) AND Bhagavan Himself. This is clearly explained in the sastras.

 

If you would like to continue this discussion privately, then could you please provide me with your email address?

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

There are differences between the different types of avatars (purusa-avataras, lila-avataras, guna-avataras, manvantara-avataras, yuga-avataras, saktyavesa-avataras) AND Bhagavan Himself. This is clearly explained in the sastras.

 

 

Where exactly?

 

[Guest guest]

ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan

nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu

krsnah svayam samabhavat paramah puman yo

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

 

"I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda [Krsna], who is always situated in various incarnations such as Rama, Nrsimha and many subincarnations as well, but who is the original Personality of Godhead known as Krsna, and who incarnates personally also." (Brahma-samhita 5.39)

 

 

advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam

adyam purana-purusam nava-yauvanam ca

vedesu durlabham adurlabham atma-bhaktau

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

 

"I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda [Krsna], who is the original person--absolute, infallible, without beginning. Although expanded into unlimited forms, still the same original, the oldest, and the person always appearing as a fresh youth. Such eternal, blissful, all-knowing forms of the Lord are usually understood by the best Vedic scholars, but they are always manifest to pure, unalloyed devotees." (Bs 5.33)

 

 

[Guest guest]

You keep on referring to Jesus 'son of God' but what do you base your knowledge of him from???!?

 

Obviously u are using historic accounts in the bible - but is that one of your defined bona-fide scriptures?

 

I think your problem with the Swaminarayan Sampraday lies in the fact that you cannot possibly accept that God manifested 200 years ago. If it were 2000 then it would be a lot more acceptable to you.

 

I really admire your attitude of

"anything other than my own belief is completely and utterly wrong. I as a Gaudiya Vaishnav am part of the only correct religion - everything else is non bona fide and is cult. Even if others give scriptural evidence I will not accept it because I am right and they are wrong"