Swaminarayan- Krshna incarnation?

[shvu]

 

A quick note.

 

You cannot quote Gaudiya texts such as the Brahma-Samhita to diasgree with non-Gaudiyas. You will have to quote from scriptures common to both traditions.

 

Also, the alleged differences between avatars and Bhagavan is not clearly mentioned in Shaastra-s as you say. Different schools hold different, conflicting views on this topic and therefore it is not as simple and transparent as you are making it out to be.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

Shvu,

 

What scriptures would be common to both traditions? Lord Swaminarayan accepted all of the sastras, i.e. Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, etc., and quotes them extensively in his own scriptures. If Krsna clearly says in the Bhagavad-gita that He is Bhagavan, and Lord Swaminarayan says he is Bhagavan in his Original, Complete, and Absolute Form, who is correct?

[Guest guest]

"anything other than my own belief is completely and utterly wrong. I as a Gaudiya Vaishnav am part of the only correct religion - everything else is non bona fide and is cult."

 

I never said Gaudiya Vaisnavism is the only correct religion. If some guru in the future comes along and says he is God, should we accept it according to blind faith. No, we should examine his principal and marginal features before we arrive at a conclusion.

 

>>"Even if others give scriptural evidence I will not accept it because I am right and they are wrong"

 

Then present some scriptural evidence here from the Shikshapatri and Vachanamrut.

[shvu]

 

 

What scriptures would be common to both traditions? Lord Swaminarayan accepted all of the sastras, i.e. Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, etc., and quotes them extensively in his own scriptures.

 

 

 

I raised this point because the Brahma-samhita was being quoted, which is authoritative only to Gaudiyas.

 

 

If Krsna clearly says in the Bhagavad-gita that He is Bhagavan, and Lord Swaminarayan says he is Bhagavan in his Original, Complete, and Absolute Form, who is correct?

 

 

 

This is what I was talking about. Krishna claiming Bhagavan status for himself in the Gita is interpreted differently by different schools. The 'I' is interpreted as the supreme Narayana/Vishnu/Brahman who has incarnated as Krishna. This interpretation is in line with the many statements found in VP, SB, etc that Krishna is one of Vishnu's avatars. I am not arguing over who is right and who is wrong, but am only saying that all the "clear" points stated by you are not infact clear. They are all prone to mutiple interpretations.

 

Similarly, there are traditions which view Krishna as an avatar and their own founder/icon as the source of all. This is very, very common in India. Even as we speak, there are hundreds of such icons being worshipped as avatars or even higher by millions. Since this belief rests on faith, it is practically impossible to show them they may be incorrect. One of the arguments I heard from one such faithful follower was, "Why should Kalki come only at the end of Kali-yuga? God is all powerful and will come and go as he wishes." That was the end of the discussion.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

From this discussion it appears to me that you have a very very short term memory.

 

 

"Then present some scriptural evidence here from the Shikshapatri and Vachanamrut"

 

Go back to the beggining of this thread.

 

Also tell me how you came to ur conclusions about Jesus

[Guest guest]

Shikshapatri, written by Lord Swaminarayan himself:

 

Slok Number : 1

I meditate, in my heart, upon Lord Shree Krishna, on whose left stands Radhikaji, on whose bosom resides Laxmiji and who sports in Vrindavan.

 

 

Slok Number : 19

One shall never consume food or drink prepared by a person from whom one is prohibited by holy scriptures, at any place, even if it is the Prasad from the offerings to Lord Shree Krishna, except the Prasad at Jagnathpuri.

Slok Number : 25

One shall never listen to any religious discourses from a person whose preaching might lead one away from the devotion to Lord Shree Krishna and personal Dharma.

Slok Number : 29

One shall never hear or believe those scriptures in which the existence of Lord Shree Krishna and his incarnations have been skilfully and deceitfully denied or degraded.

Slok Number : 39

One shall never practice devotion to Lord Shree Krishna without observance of Dharma and shall never give up devotion to Shree Krishna for fear of being criticised by ignorant persons.

Slok Number : 40

All those who come to the temples of Lord Shree Krishna either daily or on festival days, shall keep themselves away from the opposite sex, by not even touching.

Slok Number : 41

Those of my Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya disciples who have been initiated into the devotion of Shree Krishna by their Guru shall always wear around their neck a double Kanthi prepared from Tulsi wood and shall mark their forehead, chest and both arms with a Tilak.

 

Slok Number : 42

The Tilak shall be made with Gopichandan stick or with consecrated sandal paste mixed with Kum-Kum (saffron or red powder) duly offered to Lord Krishna.

Slok Number : 49

All my disciples shall get up daily before sunrise, offer prayers to Lord Shree Krishna and then go to answer the call of nature.

Slok Number : 53

Widows shall not mark their foreheads with either a Tilak or a Chandlo. All my disciples shall then meditate upon Shree Krishna and mentally offer sandalwood, flowers etc.

 

Slok Number : 54

Then they shall, with due respect, bow down before the images of Shree Radha Krishna and recite the eight syllabled holy Mantra of Shree Krishna according to their capacity and then attend to there daily routines.

Slok Number : 55

Even those of my devotes who are Atmanivedi (who have entirely dedicated there lives to the service of God) like king Ambarisha, shall also perform the sequence of rituals as described above, up to the meditation upon Lord Shree Krishna.

Slok Number : 57

They shall then read hymns or the religious scriptures about Lord Shree Krishna according to their ability. Those who do not know Sanskrit shall sing songs in praise of Shree Krishna and chant his name.

Slok Number : 58

They shall offer food to Lord Shree Krishna and then shall eat this sanctified food as His Prashaad. They shall thus always remain in the service of Shree Krishna with dedication and supreme love.

 

Slok Number : 60

These Atmanivedi devotees shall never drink water or eat roots, fruits, leaves etc. without first offering to Lord Shree Krishna.

Slok Number : 62

They shall worship only those idols of Shree Krishna, which have been given to them by the Acharya (of Dharma Kul) or installed by Him. Other idols shall be respectfully bowed before, but not worshipped.

Slok Number : 63

All my disciples shall go to temple everyday in the evening and there, they shall sing loudly, songs in praise of Lord Shree Krishna.

Slok Number : 64

They shall read and listen to, with deep reverence, the narration from the life of Shree Krishna, and shall celebrate all festivals with His songs, in accompaniment of musical instruments.

Slok Number : 82

My disciples shall observe these Vratas and festivals and shall adopt the mode of worship of Shree Krishna explained by Shree Vithalnath

Slok Number : 86

Whenever an eclipse of the Sun or the Moon takes place, all my disciples shall immediately suspend all work and after purifying themselves shall chant the Mantra of Shree Krishna.

Slok Number : 98

The fifth and tenth Skandas of Shrimad Bhagwat Purana shall he regarded as the best amongst these scriptures for clear understanding of the greatness and glory of Lord Shree Krishna.

Slok Number : 101

Those text in these scriptures which speak the greatness of divinity of Shree Krishna, Dharma, Bhakti and Vairagya shall be considered to be of greater value.

Slok Number : 102

The message of these scriptures is that the devotion of Lord Shree Krishna is inseparable from Dharma.

 

Slok Number : 103

Dharma is the right conduct as authenticated by Shruti and Smruti. Bhakti is profound love for God coupled with knowledge of the majesty and magnificence of Lord Shree Krishna.

 

Slok Number : 104

Vairagya is non-attachment to everything except Lord Shree Krishna. Gnaan is comprehensive understanding of Jiva (soul), Maya (illusion) and Ishwara (God).

 

Slok Number : 108

And that Ishwara is Lord Shree Krishna, who is Parabrahman Purushottam and our most cherished deity. He is worthy of worship by us all. He is the source of all incarnations.

Slok Number : 109

When Lord Shri Krishna is by the side of Radhikaji, He shall be known as Radha Krishna. When He is beside of Laxmiji in the form of Rukshmini, he shall be known as Laxmi Narayan.

Slok Number : 112

Therefore one shall not discriminate between the different manifestations of Krishna, as the four armed, eight armed or thousand armed manifestations of the two armed Krishna, as they are manifestations of his own free will.

Slok Number : 113

All persons shall worship Shree Krishna with devotion, knowing that there is nothing more conducive to the realisation of salvation other than devotion to Lord Shree Krishna.

Slok Number : 114

The righteousness of the virtuous persons such as the learned ones is only due to their devotion to Lord Shri Krishna and Satsang (association with the righteous), because without devotion and Satsang, even a learned person is bound to degenerate.

 

Slok Number : 115

Lord Shree Krishna, his incarnations and his images are alone worthy of meditation, therefore they alone shall be meditated upon, but one shall never meditate upon a person, a deity or Jeeva (a being) even though he may be a profound devotee of Lord Shree Krishna or a Brahmveta.

 

Slok Number : 116

One shall consider one’s soul as distinct from the three forms of body - Sthool (gross), Shukshma (subtle) and Karana (causal) and identify the soul with Brahman and with the sublime form shall always worship Lord Shree Krishna.

Slok Number : 117

My disciples shall listen, with reverence, to the tenth Skanda of Shreemad Bhagwat everyday or once a year. Those who are learned shall read it daily.

 

Slok Number : 121

My philosophy rests in the theory of Vishishtadvaita. Goloka Dhaama is my beloved abode. I believe Mukti (salvation) as being able to serve Lord Krishna as Brahmanrupa, in Goloka Dhaama.

 

Slok Number : 130

They shall worship, with due rites, Laxmi-Narayana and other images of Lord Shree Krishna installed by me in the prominent temples.

Slok Number : 147

They shall donate one tenth of their earnings, money or food grains, to Lord Shree Krishna. Those with insufficient income shall offer one twentieth.

Slok Number : 150

They shall never borrow money from their Acharyas or from the temples of Shree Krishna nor shall they borrow, for their social use utensils, ornaments, clothes and other articles owned by Acharyas or temples.

Slok Number : 163

The widowed disciples shall worship Lord Shree Krishna with the same fidelity as they would have worshipped their husbands. They shall always live under the commandment of their father, sons or other such relatives but never act independently.

 

Slok Number : 195

If this facility is not available, they shall ask for uncooked food and offer it to Lord Shree Krishna before consuming it.

Slok Number : 212

May Lord Shree Krishna, reliever of all miseries of his disciples, protector of Bhakti with Dharma and bestower of all desired happiness, shower his blessings on us all.

[Guest guest]

So its all looking quite amusing 'guest'. Shvu is right, the word 'Krishna' is used eternally as another name for Narayan, Vishnu etc in many many sastra's so your logic is flawed(again).These very sastra's(please make an effort to read the post presenting scriptural evdience on Swaminarayan's prediction - if you have read it then you must be very ignorant!!!!) predcit Swaminarayns' arrival, so it seems you choose to accept parts of the vedas that suit your arguement and neglect the other parts......Do you know how transparent and narrow minded that makes you look??

If you can use qoutes from your scriptures, and regard them as authorative ( e,g Guadiya texts) then I'm sure followers of Swaminarayan can do the same??But wait hold on you dont accept this!!!!Youve gone thourgh the effort of presenting various shloka's form the Shikshaptri, again demonstaring your narrow mindedness , heres another little flashback to jog that poor memory of yours( trey some alomonds my freind!! - You know what they say how people with poor memories shouldnt enter debates!!!!)

 

In the Shikshapatri Shlok 108 Sahajanand Swami writes

 

"That isvara is Shree Krshna who is PraBrahma Bhagwan Purushottam and our most cherished deity (istadeva).

He is worthy of being worshipped by us all (upasya). He is the cause of all manifestations and incarnations"

 

As an elaboration to this shlok, Sadguru Shree Shatanand Muni writes in Artha Dipika (Shikshapatri Bhashya)

“That live (saakshat) God (bhagvan) Krshna who is above kshar and akshar, appeared from Bhakti through Dharma as Swaminarayan; assumed a human body on the earth like a dramatist (natta).

That Krshna whilst observing the (human’s) dharmas of an Acharya speaks in third person (parokshavann) but that Krshna is none other than Himself”

 

 

i.e. that Krshna that Swaminarayan Bhagwan speaks of is none other than Himself, however Krshna is referred to by Swaminarayan Bhagwan in third person form (parokshavann) because Swaminarayan Bhagwan is writing the Shikshapatri in the capacity of an Acharya or Guru (acharyatvadharme).

 

This forms the fundamental basis of this discussion. Swaminarayan Bhagwan was indeed a Guru, Sadhu, Acharya, Teacher and even a devotee of Krshna. But this does not contradict His status as God.

For if this were the case then Lord Rama was a King and fulfilled His role as the ruler of Ayodhya. Lord Krishna was a cowherd and later the King of Dwarika. Also, Lord Nar Narayana were brahmchari-rishis performing tappascharya in Badrik Ashram. Does this imply that a they were not God just because they were kings, a cowherd or rishis? Of course not. Similarly, Swaminarayan Bhagwan was a devotee of Krishna, a Sadhu, an Acharya a Teacher as well as being Lord Himself.

 

There we are for the millionth time.....now please read then read and read ....dont stop until you grasp!!!!!!

 

The eternal Krshna though is the Parabrahma but the name does not suit MoolPurush (original causal personality) because the God (as Mool Purush) manifested at the end of Dwapara to Devaki and Vasudev and then Gargacharya named Him ‘Krshna’. Note, that after the birth of God to Dharmadev and Bhaktidevi, Markandey Rushi named Him Krshna (as well as Hari and HariKrshna). Therefore whoever says that the name ‘Krshna’ became prevalent after His arrival (in Mathura at the end of Dwapara to Vasudev and Devaki) is not right in doing so, because God's eternal name is Krshna (all attractive) and even before manifesting to Vasudev and Devaki Brahmvaivarta Puran uses the term Krshna many times over.

The Srimad Bhagavatam in 1st Skandha, 3rd Adhyay, 28th Shloka therefore declares after listing 24 avatars including Vasudev Krishna that

“ete chamsh kalaha pumsaha, krshnastu bhagavan svayam”

 

i.e. all these (i.e.24 listed including Vasudev Krshna) are various portions of the Supreme. Bhagavat refers to this same ‘eternal’ Krshna, that Artha Dipika speaks of, as Bhagwan Himself.

 

Just as in the Shikshapatri, in the Vachanamrut Lord Swaminarayan addresses the audience in a manner which appeals to them, at times referring to Himself as a great bhakta (who can be worshipped alongside Lord Shree Krishna) and often revealing Himself as the Supreme Reality.

It is worthy to note, that wherever in the Vachanamrut where Swaminarayan Bhagwan does indeed reveal Himself, the tone and atmosphere set in the beginning of the Prakaran is of a serious nature.

At times, He even discloses His hesitance in imparting these facts for the fear that certain followers' faith will be affected.

 

A few Vachanamrut where Swaminarayan Bhagwan suggests He is a bhakta and/or Guru are: Gadhada Pratham 44; Gadhada Pratham 48; Gadhada Madhyam 28 and Vadtal 18.

 

In many Vachanamruts, Swaminarayan Bhagwan reveals His true identity. Such Prakarans include: Loya 7 and 11; Gadhada Madhya 13; Amdavad (Ahmedabad) 6 and 7 as well as Gadhada Antya 38.

 

Finally, when Swaminarayan Bhagwan decided to establish mandirs He declared that He will install His own images. Moreover, He even installed His present image as Hari Krshna Maharaj in mandirs such as Vadtal.

 

Now this above explains the use of term 'Krishna' in the Shikshaptri!!!!

 

"Also tell me how you came to ur conclusions about Jesus"

 

Are you avoiding points that you are struggling to back up?(again!!).........Please do elaboarte and 'enlighten 'us all with your amusing snese of logic!!!

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Guest,

 

Like I said before, if you want to resort to personal attacks and insults, then a rational discussion cannot occur. If you want to plagiarize Bhaven's post without giving him any credit, suit yourself. In the end, whatever floats your boat. I hope you have a happy and prosperous life. Take care.

[Guest guest]

"Like I said before, if you want to resort to personal attacks and insults, then a rational discussion cannot occur"

 

There have been no personal attacks or insultsjust refernces to the nature of your logic -dont tell me your insecure as well?After all we are the Atma..... and your right you do not have the attributes or intellect to contribute to a rational discussion.

 

 

"If you want to plagiarize Bhaven's post without giving him any credit, suit yourself."

 

If you READ(You know its what you do with your eyes, and you take in what is written!!)what i said, I mentioned clearly that I am giving you a flashback of a previous post to cater for your poor memory.I did not claim credit for that post.Yet gain a case of ignorance!!!.Someone call the men in white coats!!..........

 

"In the end, whatever floats your boat. I hope you have a happy and prosperous life. Take care."

 

Thank you Satya, I wish you all the best too, oh by the way you didnt elaborate on the Jesus point........Oh I'm sorry I think we all know why !!!!!!........Good luck in your quest to disprove the integrity of the Swaminarayn Sampraday!!In which case I would say 'ayushman bhava' because with your sense of logic you will sure need all the 'ayush' you can get!!!!

 

HariKrishna Bol

 

[Enlightened]

Note : Isay, You say and another are characters.

 

I say : Rama is the supreme personality of the Godhead.

 

You say: Krishna is the supreme personality of the Godhead.

You are contradicting here!!!.

 

Another: I say ________ is the supreme personality of the godhead. You are contradicting the truth Isay and yousay!!!.

 

Truth: It doesn't really matter, what matters is that we are all happy with our beliefs.

 

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree with u more. Finally someone who talks sense!!!!!!

 

As long as what they believe is good for them and helps them maintain a virtuous lifestyle - it doesnt matter.

[Guest guest]

"As long as what they believe is good for them and helps them maintain a virtuous lifestyle - it doesnt matter."

 

This is true to a certain extent. No one here is forcing thier faith or belief on anyone, we are merely proving the authenticity and integrity of the Swaminarayan Samprday which is being doubted, despite streams of evidence being presented, by Satya.

Its true that if you beleive in something or someone that helps you do good is good, but followers of sects such as Saibaba and Vivekananda, even though they preach good, they are not bona-fide or the person worshipped is not predicted in any of the scriptures.So in that sense it does matter as the follers are worshipping a person rather than an avtar or Bhagwan - which has no vedic grounding.

[Guest guest]

Based on what preassumptions, are you stating that sects such as - Sai Baba and Vivekananada are not bonafide ?

 

SDdasa

[Guest guest]

Post deleted by jndas

[Guest guest]

TRUTHji,

 

There is no need for personal attacks and insults. We are all educated human beings that are able to have rational discussions. Which reminds me, whenever I get into a heated discussion and get "carried away", I am always reminded by the following verse:

 

"Now the works of the flesh are plain....strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit....I warn you, as I warned you before that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:19­21).

[leyh]

Many devotees and guests had come for the Sunday feast. Prabhupada spoke strongly from Bhagavad-gita, and then asked for questions. The second or third question was more of a challenge. A young bearded man stood, claiming that Meher Baba was God, not Krsna. In an argumentative tone, he asked Prabhupada what he thought about Meher Baba. The audience was quiet and expectant.

Srila Prabhupada looked lovingly at Radha-Gopinatha on the altar. "I don't know anything about these people. I only know about Krsna. Krsna is so wonderful that he lifted Govardhana Hill on his little finger for seven days." As he spoke, Prabhupada, smiling brightly, held his left hand in the air, with his little finger sticking up, while still looking at the Deity. Prabhupada's eyes widened; he turned to the man. You can have Meher Baba. We take Krsna."

He paused and turned again to Gopinatha. Krsna is verybeautiful. You can take Meher Baba, we take Krsna."

Srila Prabhupada quickly stood, offering full obeisances before the Deities, as the devotees followed suit. A kirtana commenced and Prabhupada walked towards the temple door. He turned and spoke out humbly to the bearded young man in the crowd: Don't be misled. Don't be misled --- Krsna is very beautiful and you can know Him." (From The Great Transcendental Adventure by Kurma Dasa --- Part I Saturday, 1 April, 1972)

 

You can have Swaminarayan. I'll take Krsna. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Guest guest]

let us not confuse the case of Krishna and Swaminarayan. They are the same entity and there shouldnt be any competitive animosity between followers of both.

If you take Krishna you are taking Swaminarayan......if you chose Swaminarayan you are taking Krishna

 

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Guest guest]

I am ignorant as to who this Swaminarayana is but no where in Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, the Puranas, the Upanisads or any other bonafide scripture have I come across description of anyone but Lord Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

[Guest guest]

The reason is because Sahajanand Swami (Swaminarayan) who appeared in 1781 in Ayodhya, India is supposed to be Lord Narayana. The others like Rama, Krishna, etc. were his avatars. The Swaminarayan Sampradaya stems from the Ramanuja Sampradaya, which holds Lord Narayana to be Supreme and Krishna to be an avatar. Whether an individual wants to believe this is his own choice, despite the mountains of evidence that say otherwise.

[Guest guest]

I am sorry you do not feal that way about you religion, who is truthji? Anyway, you should feel prowd about your religion, and defend it when its under insult.

[Guest guest]

Look mate, whether there is a mountain of evidence saying Lord Swaminarayan is not God or even if there are millions of mountains of evidence saying that, the truth is, Lord Swaminarayan is GOD and he is the Supreme God.

Yes, that also means he is the God of Krishna, Ram, Vishnu, everyone.

He is THE God, no matter what some random jabroni starts saying to you on da street!!!

[Guest guest]

Look JNDAS,

Why do you keep deleting any comments which favour Swaminarayan?

I think you are an anti-Swaminarayan!

Everytime an Anti-Swaminarayan comment is passed you do nothing about it, but when an Pro-Swaminarayan you delete it within minutes of it being posted!

I have therefore come to one solid conclusion, JNDAS is an ANTI-SWAMINARAYAN!!!

[Guest guest]

Look JNDAS,

Why do you keep deleting any comments which favour Swaminarayan?

I think you are an anti-Swaminarayan!

Everytime an Anti-Swaminarayan comment is passed you do nothing about it, but when an Pro-Swaminarayan you delete it within minutes of it being posted!

I have therefore come to one solid conclusion, JNDAS is an ANTI-SWAMINARAYAN!!!

 

[Guest guest]

you are so right. I was injoying a forum a few days ago on swaminarayan, and Jndas stoped it. Whats this hu? IS jndas afraid of some people that looked like they had a better argument then him SORT IT OUT JNDAS, YOUR UNDER INSPEACTION, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY FOR YOURSELF?

[Guest guest]

I commend you for deleting that pathetic post. I am Swaminarayan follower and I too feel that whoever posted that defamotary message should be banned.

 

JN Das is not Anti-Swaminarayan. He is open minded and is a devout Krishna follower. Stop this taleban-style nonsense please.

 

And JN Das I think this topic has been exhausted - can we lock it?