Siddha Pranali

[Jagat]

Originally posted by Shashi:

Which Bengali word is having the translation as "transformation" please?

vikAra.

 

 

[Jagat]

But Shashi, I think that "woman's incite" is a subject for discussion on the celibacy thread.

 

(We're just kidding around, Shashi Devi! Keep those insights coming. By the way, whose your gurudeva?)

[Jagat]

Actually, this long paragraph I just translated off the cuff is worth another comment: BVT quoting SB 2.10.6 in this context is fascinating. The first modality of svarupa-siddhi is mukti, i.e. to be established in one's own identity. Whereas its ultimate modality is prema. This division of svarupa-siddhi is not found elsewhere, but it is interesting.

 

The understanding I was coming to was that svarupa-siddhi, bhAvApana-dashA are equal to bhAva-bhakti, which in my mind is equal to rati or attaining sthAyi-bhAva. BVT does not seem to agree with this because he says elsewhere in CS that sthAyi bhAva is prema.

 

On Raganuga the question was asked, when does one taste rasa. Rasa can only be experienced when there is a sthAyi-bhAva. There is however a progression of sthayi-bhavas. Rupa (or is it VCT) says that in the sadhaka deha, one can only go as far as prema, and the other levels of sthAyi-bhAva--praNaya, mAna, rAga, etc., only come after vastu-siddhi, i.e. when one is actually in the spiritual body. At any rate, sthAyi-bhAva and complete identification with the spiritual body seem to me pretty much synonymous.

 

Maybe at its lowest level, Apana-dasha is bhAva bhakti, but at its highest reaches it is prema. That fits in quite well with what I just translated.

[theist]

Originally posted by Shashi:

This is being the very good referencing for our discussions here.

I am agreeing with most thoroughly TheistJi.

You must being a woman also for the such sensitive incite.

 

Male form Shashi.

You are liking my inputs sometimes?

I am asking earlier of others but now I am asking of you - should I get the helping from learned PanditJi to trnaslate mine messages into the better English so I am not wasting everyone's times in the deep discussions?

 

Yes I have enjoyed your posts.As far as having someone help translate when you get into the very subtle areas it might be helpful.But then most of that goes over my head even if the English is flawless and the commas properly placed.

 

My trouble is with the Sanskrit and Bengali phrases.I really need a GV glossary.

 

So keep the posts coming Shashi and we will all help each other remember the Divine couple.

 

Hare Krsna,

theist

 

 

 

[raga]

The understanding I was coming to was that svarupa-siddhi, bhAvApana-dashA are equal to bhAva-bhakti, which in my mind is equal to rati or attaining sthAyi-bhAva. BVT does not seem to agree with this because he says elsewhere in CS that sthAyi bhAva is prema.

SthAyi-bhAva is one of the ingredients of prema for all I understand? Is it prema in itself? What does BVT say there?

 

On Raganuga the question was asked, when does one taste rasa. Rasa can only be experienced when there is a sthAyi-bhAva. There is however a progression of sthayi-bhavas. Rupa (or is it VCT) says that in the sadhaka deha, one can only go as far as prema, and the other levels of sthAyi-bhAva--praNaya, mAna, rAga, etc., only come after vastu-siddhi, i.e. when one is actually in the spiritual body. At any rate, sthAyi-bhAva and complete identification with the spiritual body seem to me pretty much synonymous.

<blockquote>RAGA-VARTMA-CANDRIKA, TEXT 2.7

 

atha rAgAnugA bhakti majjanasyAnartha nivRtti niStha-rucyAsaktyantaraM prema-bhUmikArUdhasya sAkSAt svAbhISTa-prApti-prakAraH pradarSyate. yathojjvala nIlamaNau "tad bhAva baddha rAgA ye janAs te sAdhane ratAH. tad yogyam anurAgaughaM prApyotkaNthAnusArataH. tA ekAzo'thavA dvi-trAH kAle kale vraje 'bhavan" iti. anurAgaughaM rAgAnugA bhajanautkaNThyaM natvanurAga sthAyinaM sAdhaka-dehe 'nurAgotpattyasambhavAt. vraje 'bhavann iti avatAra samaye nitya priyAdya yathA Avirbhavanti tathaiva gopikA-garbhe sAdhana-siddha api Avirbhavanti. tataz ca nitya-siddhAdi gopInAM mahA-bhAva-vatInAM saGga mahimnA darzana zravaNa kIrtanAdibhiH sneha mAna praNaya rAgAnurAga mahA-bhAva api tatra gopikA-dehe utpadyante. pUrva janmani sAdhaka-dehe teSAm utpattyasambhavAt. ataeva vraje kRSNa preyasInAm asAdharaNAni lakSaNAni. yad uktam "gopInAM paramAnanda AsId govinda darzane. kSaNaM yuga-zatam iva yAsAM yena vinA bhaved" iti. "truTir yugAyate tvAm apazyatam" ityadi ca. kSanasya yuga zatAyamAnatvaM mahA-bhAva lakSaNam.

 

"Now it will be described how the raganugiya bhakta gradually advances through the stages of anartha nivrtti (cessation of bad habits), nistha (fixation), ruci (taste), and asakti (attachment to the beloved deity) upto the stage of prema (love of God) and the direct attainment of his beloved deity. In the Ujjvala Nilamani it is said that 'those who are specially attracted to the ecstasy of the Vrajavasis and thus perform raganugiya bhajana will attain the abundance of eagerness that is fit for performing raganugiya bhajana and will take birth in Vraja in groups of one, two or three in their own time, according to their eagerness. Here the word anuragaugha means ?that eagerness which makes one qualified for doing raganugiya bhajana?. The anuraga mentioned here does not refer to the sthayi bhava (permanent mood) of that name, because the sthayi bhava named anuraga cannot be attained within a material body. The words ?having taken birth in Vraja? means the sadhana siddhas take birth from the womb of a gopika, just as Krishna's eternally beloved gopis appear with Him when He descends to earth (prakata-lila). After that, gradually sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga and mahabhava will become manifest in the gopika-body of that sadhaka on the strength of associating with the gopis that are endowed with maha-bhava and by hearing and chanting and seeing the greatness of Krishna?s eternally liberated gopis. These feelings could not possibly have arisen in the material body of the sadhaka in his previous birth. In this way the extraordinary characteristics of Sri Krishna?s beloveds in Vraja has been shown. In Srimat Bhagavata it is said that the gopis attained the pinnacle of transcendental bliss by seeing Govinda. Without Him, they experienced a moment to last like a hundred ages. Their statement (in Srimat Bhagavata 10.31.15) 'Without seeing You, we consider a second to last like an age', is a symptom of mahabhava."

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

 

From the commentary of Pandit Ananta Dasji:

 

"In the above verse, the word anuragaugham means the eagerness that is proper for raganuga, not the sthayi-bhava named anuraga, because only stages up to prema can appear in the sadhaka body. The states above prema, from sneha up to mahabhava, that are required to attain personal service in the mood of the gopis, can only appear in a transcendental gopi-body, for a sadhaka body is unable to tolerate the coolness of meeting with Sri Krishna or the heat of separation from Him."

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-05-2002).]

[raga]

-- wrong button -- sorry --

 

Whenever I cut & paste anything from Word, all the "'s and ' 's which are of the fancier style (you know, beginning and ending a quotation), they get replaced with ? 's.

 

-- end of excuse --

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-05-2002).]

[Shashi]

Originally posted by Jagat:

vikAra.

 

 

MasterJi

Cannot this be also being properly said as

"aspect" in translation.

Question in the good faith.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Shashi (edited 05-05-2002).]

[Shashi]

Originally posted by theist:

Male form Shashi

Oh I am sorry for you (that I am calling you as sensitive woman )

PAMHO.

But I am definitely feeling (someone is showing me) that you are being the gentle white cow (female) being especial for one gopi devi. You are having one "M" in nagri letter hanging around your neck.

Your abilities in chewing the variety of grasses and obtaining the needed essentials from same is being like your abilities in knowing ShivaJi's best meanings and rejecting his chaffs.

Theist Prabhu, what means this "M" please?

 

 

[raga]

The understanding I was coming to was that svarupa-siddhi, bhAvApana-dashA are equal to bhAva-bhakti, which in my mind is equal to rati or attaining sthAyi-bhAva. BVT does not seem to agree with this because he says elsewhere in CS that sthAyi bhAva is prema.

But... sthAyi-bhAvas by definition are rati -- mukhya-rati and gauna-rati, and their respective divisions. They're all listed as rati.

 

Would this be another of those occasions where BVT uses the common terminology with a different vision? Because sthayi-bhava, inasmuch as we take it to mean a particular rati, in itself is not prema.

 

Of course the definition of BRS 2.5.1 of sthAyi-bhAva implies that there are other bhAvas ingredients mixed in.

 

aviruddhAna viruddhAMz ca bhAvAn yo vazatAM nayan

surAjeva virAjeta sa sthAyIbhAva ucyate

 

I always took the word "bhAva" to mean "sthAyi-bhAva", but I am thinking, vibhAva, anubhAva, vybhicArI-bhava and sattvika-bhAva are bhAvas as well.

 

BRS 1.3.1 defines bhAva:

 

zuddha-sattva-vizeSAtmA prema-sUryAMzu-sAmya-bhAk

rucibhiz citta-masRNya-kRd asau bhAva ucyate

 

"A specific manifestation of suddha-sattva, by nature like a ray of the sun of prema, experienced as different tastes within the heart, this softness in the heart is called bhava."

 

This is not too specific in this regard. Would you have a more definitive explanation of bhAva at hand?

 

 

There is however a progression of sthayi-bhavas. Rupa (or is it VCT) says that in the sadhaka deha, one can only go as far as prema, and the other levels of sthAyi-bhAva--praNaya, mAna, rAga, etc., only come after vastu-siddhi, i.e. when one is actually in the spiritual body.

What do you mean with "a progression of sthayi-bhavas"? Sthayi-bhava is one (of the five of course), and is influenced by different factors. Aren't they rather the different levels of the growth of prema, as the different levels of experiencing bhakti-rasa?

 

 

At any rate, sthAyi-bhAva and complete identification with the spiritual body seem to me pretty much synonymous. Maybe at its lowest level, Apana-dasha is bhAva bhakti, but at its highest reaches it is prema. That fits in quite well with what I just translated.

HNC, Chapter 15/90: bhAvApane haya bhAva AvirbhAva-kAla |

zAstrareh-yukti chADe tabe jAniyA jaJjAla ||

 

"On reaching the state of bhAva-bhakti through full appropriation of his spiritual identity,

he gives up all scriptural arguments, considering them a disturbance." (38)

 

(BVT footnote #38) "At the time of appropriation" means "upon arriving at the stage of appropriating his own spiritual identity."

 

(Translation by Jagadananda das)

 

Do you have any earlier references for the attainment of svarupa-siddhi? Would be interesting to see.

[theist]

 

Originally posted by Shashi:

Oh I am sorry for you (that I am calling you as sensitive woman )

No problem.We must cultivate the softness of the rose as well as the hardness of the thunderbolt, so I took it as a compliment.

But I am definitely feeling (someone is showing me) that you are being the gentle white cow (female) being especial for one gopi devi. You are having one "M" in nagri letter hanging around your neck.

Your abilities in chewing the variety of grasses and obtaining the needed essentials from same is being like your abilities in knowing ShivaJi's best meanings and rejecting his chaffs.

Theist Prabhu, what means this "M" please?

 

 

 

That is a nice picture, thank you.But I am not sure what the "M" would be.When you say someone is showing you are you refering to an unseen helper?

 

[Shashi]

Originally posted by theist:

That is a nice picture, thank you.But I am not sure what the "M" would be.When you say someone is showing you are you refering to an unseen helper?

I am just making joke because my saying of that "someone" expression caused the fummy comfusions before. So now I am trying to be saying "I am feeling" instead. Sometimes I mite be needing to say "IT is being my understanding" and so ons.

 

If you were one cow what name would be likeable for the cow? Nothing beginning with the M you think? Milky perhaps but that is not spoken in Braj. Maybe Malati?

What about Mamooli?

 

 

[theist]

LOL! Oh I thought I had a psychic on the other end.

 

Presently I would be named Mad Cow but perhaps Gauranga will rename me(change my nature) some day.

 

Hare Krsna

[Jagat]

VikAra can only mean transformation; it means the same as vikRti, but I get the impression that the latter is used in a negative way, whereas the first is neutral.

 

========

 

Ragaji, Thanks for the Raga-vartma-candrika quote. That's the one I was thinking of. That's what I meant by the progression of sthAyi-bhAvas above prema.

 

Thanks for quoting the HNC back to me. I was definitely thinking of that verse.

 

Here are some of the glossary entries for bhAva that I am preparing for HNC. Forgive me for leaving the Balaram diacritics in. I hope you can all figure them out. It will need more editing too, but it's 1130 out here. I'm going to bed.

 

bhäva—1. state, condition; 2. emotion, feeling, mood; 3. the first level of spiritual perfection, at which stage one’s relation with Krishna is firmly established (bhäva-bhakti); 4. the different attitudes in relation with Krishna (sthäyi-bhävas, q.v.) as well as some of the other ingredients in the makeup of rasa (vyabhicäri-bhävas, sättvika-bhävas, q.v.); 5. the aspects of the siddha deha (ekädaça-bhäva, q.v.). 6. “thought” = bhävanä.

 

The word bhäva derives from the verb “to be or become”; its basic meaning is thus “state.” Since this can be a state of being or a state of emotions, the word can also be translated as “feeling” or “emotion.” This is the usual understanding when we talk about reaching the spiritual level called bhäva (BRS 1.3.1), at which stage one is said to first experience involuntary ecstatic symptoms (sättvikas). Thus some translate bhäva as ecstasy. However, when Bhaktivinoda Thakur speaks about bhäva-märga (q.v.) or bhäväpana-daçä or bhäva-sädhanä, or nija-bhäva (“one’s own bhäva”), he is refering to the eternal spiritual identity. Nevertheless, there is a clear connection between these two: The stage of bhäva is clearly identified with rati by Rupa Goswami. Thus, attaining one’s spiritual identity in svarüpa-siddhi (i.e. äpana-daçä) is simultaneously bhäva. Thus bhäva-sädhanä means the specific cultivation of one’s spiritual identity.

 

bhäva-märga—“the path of cultivating one’s spiritual identity” (Others have translated as “the path of ecstasy or ecstatic love”). In Chaitanya-sikshamrita (p.314), Bhaktivinoda also uses the term bhävanä-märga, “the path of contemplation” where he defines bhävanä as siddha-deha-bhävanä: “While still in this body, the practitioner serves in Krishna’s daily pastimes in his mind and, upon arriving at the point of svarüpa-siddhi, identifies completely with this spiritual identity.” He then goes on to explain how to think of that body. Synonym, bhäva-sädhanä, “cultivating the spiritual identity.”

 

bhäväpana-daçä—See äpana-daçä.

 

bhäva-sevä—“mental service.” HNC chapter 14.

 

bhäva-tattva—Bhaktivinoda Thakur divides into two categories : the sädhaka’s ekädaça-bhäva and kåñëa-lélä. The first of these is related to the process, the latter to the goal.

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 05-05-2002).]

[raga]

Thus, attaining one?s spiritual identity in svarüpa-siddhi is (i.e. äpana-daçä is simultaneously bhäva.).

This is poetic language or an incomplete sentence is?

[Jagat]

I wrote something about sthayi bhava in the footnotes to HNC.

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000061.html

 

I would not bother reading the other translations. They really have very little understanding. I think the most useful note is (17).

[raga]

Originally posted by Jagat:

I wrote something about sthayi bhava in the footnotes to HNC.

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000061.html

 

I would not bother reading the other translations. They really have very little understanding. I think the most useful note is (17).

(BVT note # 17) Here the functioning of rasa may be compared to the working of a juice-making machine. Sthäyi-bhäva, which is also known as rati, is the honey. Once the machine starts moving by the combined energy of the four bhävas, the permanent emotion (sthäyi-bhäva) is then converted into rasa. Here the lover, the devotee of Lord Krishna, is the taster of the nectar of rasa.

 

Essentially BVT presents sthAyi-bhAva as an ingredient of bhakti-rasa here.

 

yo hi bhAvasya prathama pariNatAveva utpadyamAna eva premNi mUrta eva rasaH sAkSAd eva tadvatA bhaktenAnubhUyata iti.

 

(mAdhurya kAdambinI 7.7)

 

I still don't follow the equation sthayi-bhava = prema, since sthayi-bhava + 4 bhavas = bhakti-rasa = prema. Right?

 

[Shashi]

Originally posted by Jagat:

VikAra can only mean transformation; it means the same as vikRti, but I get the impression that the latter is used in a negative way, whereas the first is neutral.

 

Yes this is the similar meanings in Hindi.

[Shashi]

Originally posted by raga:

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila, 4.59-72:

<blockquote>

59.

 

rAdhikA hayena kRSNera praNaya-vikAra

svarUpa-zakti hlAdinI nAma yAGhAra

 

zrImatI RAdhikA is the transformation of KRSNa's love. She is His internal energy called hlAdinI.

 

 

My PunditJi is saying I may make my pwoint like this:

 

If Krishna's Form is eternal and Radha is eternally with Him and within the ambit of His internal Energy the conception of Her being an effect of "transformation" runs contrary to Her eternal status as the Perennial Partner with the Lord.

 

It is accepted, as JagatJi has confirmed, that "vikAra" is correctly translated as "transformation" (and by implication, therefore, any word which comprehends the semantics of change). Given this, the correlates of process (viz. cause and effect ) arise in the description of Radha in the above verse.

 

Shashi MataJi is curious how the devotees reconcile the concept that Radha is a result of transformation and the fact that Radha is eternal.

 

Harih Om Tat Sat.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Shashi (edited 05-06-2002).]

[Jagat]

It's language.

[sha]

Originally posted by Shashi:

My PunditJi is saying I may make my pwoint like this:

 

If Krishna's Form is eternal and Radha is eternally with Him and within the ambit of His internal Energy the conception of Her being an effect of "transformation" runs contrary to Her eternal status as the Perennial Partner with the Lord.

 

It is accepted, as JagatJi has confirmed, that "vikAra" is correctly translated as "transformation" (and by implication, therefore, any word which comprehends the semantics of change). Given this, the correlates of process (viz. cause and effect ) arise in the description of Radha in the above verse.

 

Shashi MataJi is curious how the devotees reconcile the concept that Radha is a result of transformation and the fact that Radha is eternal.

 

Harih Om Tat Sat.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Shashi (edited 05-06-2002).]

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[Rati]

Originally posted by theist:

Shashi,

 

I understood what you meant.I would suggest not spending anymore time on this one.Grammarians can't help themselves.They are forced to dissect sentences and subject the same to critical review.It is like a reflex for them.We must show tolerance.

 

 

 

The issue is not really grammarians and their compulsions, but rather clear communication in a common language - English. Granted English is one of the most difficult languages on the planet to learn for foreigners, but they should still make the effort to constantly perfect their command of it, if indeed their goal is communication.

 

I have seen quite a few really bad puns here. What's the difference between a pun that is actually effective and one that is just stupid? An effective one will elicit laughter, others just groans.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 05-06-2002).]

[theist]

Originally posted by Rati:

The issue is not really grammarians and their compulsions, but rather clear communication in a common language - English. Granted English is one of the most difficult languages on the planet to learn for foreigners, but they should still make the effort to constantly perfect their command of it, if indeed their goal is communication.

 

I have seen quite a few really bad puns here. What's the difference between a pun that is actually effective and one that is just stupid? An effective one will elicit laughter, others just groans.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 05-06-2002).]

Hey Rati,

 

Did you miss the winking icon that was with that post?It was a light hearted attempt encourage Shashi that's all.

 

Not everyone's puns will be to your liking or mine.So what?

 

 

[Rati]

I agree - so what?

 

I see many errors in the use of written English all over these forums, but do not feel compelled to correct everyone that is in error. I always thought that it was more important that the meaning of a statement be clear, irregardless of its level of eloquence (or lack thereof). I have often been criticized in the past for sentences that are too long, so I try to break them up as far as possible (although I may not always succeed on that front).

 

As far as which puns might be appreciated by others as clever and worth the effort, that is going to depend on the audience.

[Shashi]

Originally posted by Jagat:

It's language.

 

So you are having this understanding about the language BUT cannot you apply your incites to coming to the more sympathetic understandings of what is ShivaJi saying?

Using your incites on language you might be easily seeing no contradictions between the positions of the posters as is the the way TheistJi the Cow is not seeing any.

 

<small><font color=#f7f7f7>

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Shashi (edited 05-07-2002).]

[Shashi]

Originally posted by Rati:

Granted English is one of the most difficult languages on the planet to learn for foreigners, but they should still make the effort to constantly perfect their command of it, if indeed their goal is communication.

 

 

Originally posted by Rati:

.......irregardless

.......