Siddha Pranali

[Rati]

He mentions in that article the alleged abuse of raganuga practices. On the other hand, critics of those who make those allegations hold that the accusations are fabricated. Just for a moment put yourself in the position of a judge in court hearing the statements of both sides. Do you just make up your mind on the hearsay acounts or do you examine evidence from both sides? If one goes out and investigates to see how the practices are actually being done and actually observes abuses, then they would have some actual evidence. If they just accept that the allegations are factual without doing so, then they are prejudging according to their personal bias. Not having gone out in search of abuses, I personally am unable to comment on the veracity of the accusations. One does have to wonder, however, how abuse could be so widespread given the strict nature of Gaudiya Vaishanava doctrine. Was it just Gaudiya Math denouncing the rule-breakers, or is it just that they leading us to believe that no one else was censuring them? If you look closely, you will find plenty of censure of those not following correctly by Vaishnavas outside of Gaudiya Math. So, what are we to conclude or believe in the matter? It is just going to have to be up to each person individually to do their own homework and soul searching to make up their minds.

[Rati]

He mentions in that article the alleged abuse of raganuga practices. On the other hand, critics of those who make those allegations hold that the accusations are fabricated. Just for a moment put yourself in the position of a judge in court hearing the statements of both sides. Do you just make up your mind on the hearsay accounts or do you examine evidence from both sides? If one goes out and investigates to see how the practices are actually being done and actually observes abuses, then they would have some actual evidence. If they just accept that the allegations are factual without doing so, then they are prejudging according to their personal bias. Not having gone out in search of abuses, I personally am unable to comment on the veracity of the accusations. One does have to wonder, however, how abuse could be so widespread given the strict nature of Gaudiya Vaishanava doctrine. Was it just Gaudiya Math denouncing the rule-breakers, or is it just that they are leading us to believe that no one else was censuring them? If you look closely, you will find plenty of censure by Vaishnavas outside of Gaudiya Math of those not following correctly. So, what are we to conclude or believe in the matter? It is just going to have to be up to each person individually to do their own homework and soul searching to make up their minds.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-12-2002).]

[Rati]

Does anyone have more information about the lobha (greed) for practicing lila smarana that is supposed to arise in a practitioner and how that is to be recognized as genuine?

[premananda]

"Gadadhara-prana dasa has also admitted that he is an ajata-rati raganuga sadhaka and that he gives siddha-pranali. So it is clear that there are those who are not siddhas giving out siddha-pranali."

 

Would any advanced devotee say, "I am a perfectly realized soul"?

It is only through association with a devotee one can understand his/her position.

In fact you don´t know what Sri Gadadhara Prana Prabhu has realized or not realized. It is like saying, "Bhaktisiddhanta considered himself most fallen, so he has admitted that he wasn´t qualified to be guru. How can a fallen soul be a spiritual master?".

[premananda]

Originally posted by Rati:

Does anyone have more information about the lobha (greed) for practicing lila smarana that is supposed to arise in a practitioner and how that is to be recognized as genuine?

You will know when you get there.

The guru will understand your sincere heart´s desire and help you develop it by giving ekadasa-bhava.

According to the explanations of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, the guru and disciple will naturally discuss these things when the time is right. A person who doesn´t have a desire to practice raganuga sadhana will not benefit much from receiving siddha pranali. It is only for those who really want to perform lila smaranam and want to develop their relationship with Sri Sri Radha-Krishna and Their sakhis.

There is a rumour that "sahajiyas" meditate on Vraja lila for their own sensual enjoyment. But that is not lila smaranam proper, merely sensual enjoyment, misconception.

A devotee who understands the nature of the divine pastimes will never think that they are mundane erotic tales meant to increase sexual lust. In fact, the opposite is true; by meditating on Radha-Krishna lila the desire to unite with the opposite sex will vanish gradually due to a higher taste. The beauty and bliss of the Divine Couple´s pastimes will drench the sincere servant in ecstacy, even though she doesn´t ask for it. A raganuga sadhaka only wishes to serve the manjaris in the guru parampara who are serving the Divine Couple. Servant of the servant of the servant of the servant....

 

 

[theist]

Did Mahaprabhu offer this siddha pranali to His followers when He was present?

 

Just curious.

 

theist

[Citta Hari]

"You will know when you get there."

 

Exactly. If we wonder whether we've got greed or not, we don't.

 

But for more sastric evidence, I suggest Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's Ragavartma-candrika wherein he specifically discusses raganuga-bhakti and lobha.

[jijaji]

[Rati]

Mahaprabhu's entourage are included in the guru pranalis and siddha pranalis, mainly manjaris, but some sakhis as well. There is no evidence that Sri Caitanya personally offered siddha pranali, but then again neither did he offer diksa of any sort, leaving that up to a handpicked few.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-14-2002).]

[jijaji]

Sri Chaitanya was too absorbed internally to give diksha to anyone externally!

 

 

[theist]

Well He initiated the Buddhist's simply by requesting them to chant the Holy Names.

 

I have only read the CC and that in a rather cursory fashion, so I thought it may have been contained elsewhere.

 

How about Rupa and Sanatan Gosvami's?He gave them extensive instruction.Sarvabhauma?Ramananda Raya?

 

Please don't think I am arguing against Siddha pranali.The fact is I am just starting to learn what it even is.

 

theist

[Rati]

According to Dr. Kapoor's "The Saints of Vraja", the astakaliya lila smarana practice was introduced by Sri Krsnadasa Babaji at the request of Sri Lalita Sakhi Herself. She and Sanatana Goswami appear to the babaji in a vision:

 

Lalita said, "I bless that whenever you remember us, your heart be illumined by our presence, and a new method of bhajana be unfolded by you for the benefit of the vaisnavas residing in Vraja."

 

This was quite a few years after Sri Caitanya's disappearance. Perhaps Jagat or someone else has a more exact date.

 

Whether or not siddha pranali was also introduced at that time or at an earlier date is a good question. It may have already been there, but without the smarana practice to go along with it, since the ekadasa bhavas are listed for all gurus on a pranali traced all the way back to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

[jijaji]

Originally posted by theist:

Well He initiated the Buddhist's simply by requesting them to chant the Holy Names.

 

I have only read the CC and that in a rather cursory fashion, so I thought it may have been contained elsewhere.

 

How about Rupa and Sanatan Gosvami's?He gave them extensive instruction.Sarvabhauma?Ramananda Raya?

 

Please don't think I am arguing against Siddha pranali.The fact is I am just starting to learn what it even is.

 

theist

He didn't give direct Gaudiya Vaishnava diksha to the Buddhists. Now Nityananda is said to have given diksha to something like 1500 outcaste buddhist nuns and priests. (that act is claimed by some to be the origins of the Vaishnav Sahajiya order)

This gained Nityananda some criticism from other Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

 

 

 

 

[Rati]

The biography of another famous saint named Krsnadasa Babaji (not that same one mentioned above) is very illustrative and instructive:

 

Baba decided to go and get branded with the stamp of the temple at Dvaraka (which is mentioned in Hari-bhakti-vilasa). He was subsequently told directly by Radharani that he had become part of the entourage of Satyabhama. This caused him such intense grief that his body literally burned up and he returned to Goloka.

 

So it is not just a matter of doctrine that raganuga bhakti is in the mood of madhurya and not aisvarya, but one that needs to be put into practice as well. Krsna as king and Lord is the awareness of the denizens of Dvaraka and Vaikuntha, whereas the denizens of Vrndavana only think of Him as this attractive cowherd boy.

 

The vaidhi marga path leads to Vaikuntha. Only the raganuga path leads to Goloka. One must decide which path to follow, based on one's chosen destination.

 

Those that are chanting and then thinking that perhaps they should be a cowherd boy in sakhya rasa, are merely in just another type of illusion. One does not just artificially develop their bhakti-lata-bija (seed of the creeper of bhakti) by conjuring up a siddha deha mentally in that manner. That is what Sri Bhaktivinode was saying in his writings.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-16-2002).]

[raga]

According to Dr. Kapoor's "The Saints of Vraja", the astakaliya lila smarana practice was introduced by Sri Krsnadasa Babaji at the request of Sri Lalita Sakhi Herself. She and Sanatana Goswami appear to the babaji in a vision:

Lalita said, "I bless that whenever you remember us, your heart be illumined by our presence, and a new method of bhajana be unfolded by you for the benefit of the vaisnavas residing in Vraja."

 

This was quite a few years after Sri Caitanya's disappearance. Perhaps Jagat or someone else has a more exact date.

 

Whether or not siddha pranali was also introduced at that time or at an earlier date is a good question. It may have already been there, but without the smarana practice to go along with it, since the ekadasa bhavas are listed for all gurus on a pranali traced all the way back to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

I doubt astakaliya-lila-smarana was introduced by Siddha Krishnadasa. In his Sriman Mahaprabhor Astakaliya-lila-smarana-mangala-stotram, Srila Visvanatha Cakravartipada refers to the practice of a similar dual (Gaura / Radha-Krishna) method of upasana as Siddhababa presented in his gutika. Also the paddhatis of Gopal Guru and Dhyanacandra indicate that the practice is much older than from the times of Siddhababa, from some 250 years ago or so.

 

I do not know why OBL Kapoor calls it a "new method of bhajan". Perhaps this is simply a poor translation or so. It does not appear radically new to me.

 

 

[theist]

Would someone kindly describe what the practice of siddha-pranali actually is.In doing so please be aware that someone (myself) who would ask this question would also most likely not be familiar with enough sanskrit terminology and would require a very simplfied definition.

 

Maybe just a walk through of a day in the life of one engaged in this practice without the concern of its history,merits or the qualifications need to properly practice it.

 

Appreciated in advance.

 

theist

 

I thought I might add Gauracandra's opening lines for this thread as follows.

 

Gauracandra:

I figured a more general discussion of Siddha Pranali might be interesting. Perhaps someone can fill in the details, but my basic understanding is that the guru reveals certain aspects like one's eternal name, form, service, bodily features etc.... I might be mistaken, but I think then one is supposed to meditate on the pastimes of Radha and Krsna as they occur in 8 points of time during the day, and [i think] one slowly introduces oneself into these pastimes.

 

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 04-25-2002).]

[raga]

[move on to the next post, please...]

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 04-25-2002).]

[raga]

Would someone kindly describe what the practice of siddha-pranali actually is.In doing so please be aware that someone (myself) who would ask this question would also most likely not be familiar with enough sanskrit terminology and would require a very simplified definition.

 

Maybe just a walk through of a day in the life of one engaged in this practice without the concern of its history, merits or the qualifications need to properly practice it.

 

"Siddha-pranali" literally means "the channel of the perfected". It is a succession of spiritual bodies from the associates of Caitanya Mahaprabhu down to the present-day gurus. Siddha-pranali, along with Guru-pranali (succession of gurus in sadhaka-deha) is often revealed to the serious disciple at the time of diksa (initiation) to aid his bhajana.

 

At the time of giving siddha-pranali, the guru reveals to the disciple his (the guru's) own ekadasa-bhava (eleven sentiments), as well as those of his predecessors in the diksa-parampara, and finally also that of the disciple. This connects the disciple into an eternal allegiance of servanthood in the spiritual realm, and it is through this channel of associates of Sri Radha-Krishna that the sadhaka then renders his service.

 

The following is a description of ekadasa-bhava (the eleven sentiments):

 

(1) sambandha (a specific relationship with Radharani in Vrindavan),

(2) vayas (age, such as 12 years, 6 months, 10 days),

(3) nAma (a name, such as Kamala Manjari),

(4) rUpa (bodily appearance, usually expressed in terms of bodily hue, such as the color of lightning),

(5) yUtha-praveza (entry into a particular group under the command of one of Radharani?s intimate friends, such as Lalita),

(6) veSa (a dress of a particular style and color),

(7) AjnA (instruction),

(8) vAsa-sthAna (a place of residence, such as Bhaktivinoda?s Svananda-sukhada Kunj),

(9) sevä (a specific service, such as providing the Divine Couple with camphor),

(10) parAkASThA (the ambition to attain a particular blessing, such as being directly asked to do something by Sri Rupa Manjari),

(11) pAlya-dAsI-bhAva (the mood of a completely dependent maidservant, under the tutelage of one of Radharani?s sakhis)."

 

(The examples given above are of the ekadasa-bhava of Kedarnath Datta Bhaktivinoda, as he received them from his diksa-guru, Vipin Vihari Gosvami.)

 

The practice of getting acquainted with one's siddha-deha and actually realizing it (svarupa-siddhi) generally passes over two stages of practice, mantramayi-upasana and svarasiki-upasana. Pandit Anantadasji explains in his commentary to Raga-vartma-candrika (1.11):

 

"In the sadhaka-body, which is the present body, as well as in the siddha-rupa, which is the mentally conceived spiritual body which is suitable for direct service to Them, or the Guru-given manjari-svarupa, raganugiya-devotees serve Sri-Sri Radha-Madhava in the wake of the people of Vraja and nourish the powerful desire to relish the wonderfully brilliant erotic sweetness of Their forms, attributes and pastimes in their hearts. Just as one serves Sri-Sri Radha-Madhava in the external sadhaka-body with different articles according to the particular time, similarly one meditates on rendering such services mentally with the same articles collected with the siddha-rupa in the Yogapitha (this is called mantramayi-upasana). Then again one meditates on rendering service to Sri-Sri Radha-Madhava in one's siddha-svarupa in the kingdom of the eightfold daily transcendental pastimes according to the right time (this is called svarasiki-upasana)."

 

It is also common that this seva has two phases, Gaura-lila and Radha-Krishna-lila. According to Srila Visvanatha Cakravartipada (Sriman Mahaprabhor Asta-kaliya-lila-smarana-mangala-stotram, 11):

 

zrI-gaurAGga-vidhoH sva-dhAmani navadvIpe ?STa-kAlodbhavAM

bhAvyAM bhavya-janena gokula-vidhor-lIlA-smRter-AditaH

 

"The pastimes of the moonlike Sri Gauranga are manifest in His own abode Navadvipa during the eight phases of the day. They should be meditated upon prior to the remembrance of the pastimes of the moon of Gokula."

 

The details of sadhana may vary from one lineage to another, but this is the general outline. Of course in general, nama-japa, mantra-smarana, puja, nama-kirtana etc. are a part of the sadhaka's life. It is understood that a serious practitioner should chant no less than one lakha (64 rounds) of harinama to progress in his sadhana-bhajana.

 

As far as the history of this practice is concerned, though Siddha Krishnadasa was a great, prominent teacher of this method of bhajan, the roots of these methods of sadhana go way back to the associates of Mahaprabhu. Particularly similar procedures are found in the paddhatis of Gopal Guru Gosvami, a disciple of Vakresvara Pandit, and Dhyanacandra Gosvami, Gopal Guru's disciple. Visvanatha encouraged the method of dual (Gaura/Radha-Krishna) upasana, as demonstrated above, and Narottama envisioned himself engaged in yogapitha-seva in his songs.

 

In general, manjari-seva is discussed in the books of the Gosvamis as well, particularly the works of Sri Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami (like Vilapa Kusumanjali and Stavavali) get very specific about the various services rendered throughout the day. We should also mention the Govinda-lilamrta of Krishnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, an exellent example of an early asta-kaliya-lila-smarana-gutika (guidebook for meditation).

 

Hence, although Siddha Krishnadasa has presented the most elaborate literal output, it is not justified to attribute the entire line of practice to him only. The mere fact that there are unbroken diksa-lineages coming from the associates of Mahaprabhu, along with their respective siddha-dehas and related information, indicates that the practice of manjari-bhava-sadhana has existed since days when Mahaprabhu brought the treasure of manjari-bhava to this world.

 

The qualifications for the practice -- lobha, or eagerness for the attainment of the desired goal is considered to be the qualification for engaging in the practice of raganuga. Visvanatha Cakravartipada has stated in his Raga-vartma-candrika (2.7):

 

atha rAgAnugA bhakti majjanasyAnartha nivRtti niStha-rucyAsaktyantaraM prema-bhUmikArUdhasya sAkSAt svAbhISTa-prApti-prakAraH pradarSyate.

 

"The raganugiya bhakta gradually advances through the stages of anartha nivrtti (cessation of bad habits), nistha (fixation), ruci (taste), and asakti (attachment to the beloved deity) upto the stage of prema (love of God) and the direct attainment of his beloved deity."

 

Since the practitioner of raganuga progresses through the stages of anartha-nivrtti (preceeded by bhajana-kriya, or engaging in the various practices of bhajana) and nistha, it is illegitimate to claim that the lobha, or eagerness of the sadhaka, should be constant and unbroken prior to the beginning of the practice, since the stages prior to nistha (firmness) are anisthita (not firm) due to the various obstacles the sadhaka meets on his path, as Cakravartipada describes in his Madhurya-kadambini. Lobha is described as follows (Raga-vartma-candrika, 1.5):

 

tatra lobho lakSitaH svayaM zrI-rUpa gosvAmI caraNair eva -

 

tat tad-bhAvAdi mAdhurye zrute dhIr yad apekSate

nAtra zAstraM na yuktiM ca tal lobhotpatti lakSaNam (BRS 1.2.292)

 

vraja-lIlA-parikarastha zRGgarAdi-bhAva-mAdhurye zrute dhIr idaM mama bhUyAt iti. lobhotpatti-kAle zAstra-yukty-apekSA nA syAt, satyAM ca tasyAM lobhatvasyaivAsiddheh. nahi kenacit zAstra-dRSTyA lobhaH kriyate nApi lobhanIya-vastu prAptau svasya yogyAyogyatva-vicArah ko 'py udbhavati. kintu lobhanIya-vastuni zrute dRSTe vA svata eva lobha utpadyate.

 

"Sri Rupa Gosvamipada himself has described the symptoms of greed as follows:

 

'If, upon hearing about the sweetness of loving emotions, one experiences a longing in his mind for attaining the same, from that moment onwards he no longer depends on scriptural injunctions and logic; such is the symptom of greed.'

 

After hearing about the sweetness of the loving emotions of Sri Krishna?s associates in Vraja-lila headed by the ones in sringara-rasa, one may think, "I wish they would be mine". Upon the arising of greed, scriptural injunctions and logic no longer remain as an impetus, and if it does, the greed is not actual. No-one develops greed because of scriptural injunctions, and for the one in whom greed is manifest, in him there is no consideration of qualification or disqualification in obtaining the object of his greed. Rather greed arises only by hearing about or seeing the object of one?s greed."

 

In the verses following the one quoted above, Srila Cakravartipada goes on to explain how the greed of the sadhaka intensifies day by day.

 

For those who have not attained a firm level of taste and inspiration in raganuga-sadhana, Sri Jiva Gosvami recommends in the Bhakti-sandarbha:

 

ajatatadrsa rucina tu sadrisesadara matradrta raganugapi vaidhi sambalitaivanustheya; tatha loka-samgrahartham pratisthena jatatadrsa rucina ca. atra misratve ca yatha yogyaµ raganugayaiki krtyaiva vaidhi kartavya.

 

"Those bhaktas who have developed some interest in the path of raganuga-bhakti-sadhana, but who do not possess such a deep hankering as the jata-ruci-raganuga-bhaktas, should combine the principles of vaidhi-bhakti with their performance of raganuga-sadhana."

 

In other words, the practice of raganuga is not limited to those who have attained the level of ruci and above. Pandit Anantadas Baba (commentary on Raga-vartma-candrika, 1.8) further explains the conception of Visvanatha:

 

"At first the greed of an aspirant will be scattered over many different subject matters and cannot focus on the actual beloved object, but when sadhana bhajana ripens, this greed will give up all other subject matters and will focus on the beloved. ... Thus his heart is gradually cleansed from vices like lust and becomes completely immaculate. The purer his heart gets through this cleansing process, the stronger the sacred greed will get in his heart."

 

The qualification for practicing sound lila-smarana though is another thing -- Sri Anantadasji explains (ibid., 1.13):

 

"Hence lila-smarana is the main item of this raganuga-marga. But for entering into lila-smarana, purification of the heart is absolutely necessary. When the heart is impure, the mind cannot be steady, and when the mind is restless or unsteady, one cannot become absorbed in lila-smarana. Hence one must take shelter of the main items of bhajana, such as hearing and chanting, and the more the heart gets purified by continuing in bhajana, the more the heart becomes attracted to lila-smarana, and thus smarana also gradually becomes deeper and deeper. Therefore, although lila-smarana is the main item of raganuga-marga, one should not drop the external practices like hearing and chanting."

 

Moreover, from his commentary on Prema-bhakti-candrika (14):

 

"Since the practice of smarana depends on the purity of heart, it may first seem difficult to accomplish for the aspirant, and therefore some slackening or neglect of this item of worship may occur. The practitioner must give up his own sense of doership and depend on the Lord's grace in this practice of smarana. Then he will easily be able to purify his heart and gradually his recollection of lila will become easily accessible and blissful. Although the practice of smarana depends on the Lord's grace, still it is absolutely necessary that the practitioner concentrates his mind, for it is the perseverance and enthusiasm in the devotee's practice that unleashes the Lord's grace. Hence the aspirant must commence the smarana item of his bhajana by establishing his self esteem in the spiritual body given to him by Sri Guru, with body, mind and words."

 

The self-esteem is gradually established through the practice of mantramayi-upasana, or yogapitha-seva.

 

The merit of this practice? Step by step, it will help the practitioner to become firmly established in his eternal spiritual identity in ecstatic love of God.

 

Further discussions on the subject matter may be found at http://raganuga.org/discussions .

 

[theist]

Wow Raga, thank you for the comprehensive answer.This will certainly take me considerable time to go over.

 

I had previously bookmark the site you mentioned and may post further questions both there as well as here.

 

Hare Krishna

theist

[Jagat]

Though chanting a lakh is a very honorable ambition, not many people have the 4-6 hours it takes to chant this much. Does that mean they are to give up any hope of engaging in raganuga bhajan?

 

I don't think so. When engaged in mantra meditation, one should still endeavor to remember Radha and Krishna in the Yoga Pith and visualize oneself engaging in direct service, according to the directives given by the guru.

 

The ekadasa bhava is the seed of one's siddha svarupa. The mantra is also the seed of the relation with the Divine Couple. One should combine meditation on both. See the thread on Harinamachintamani for further information. You'll probably get a clearer picture from my translations.

 

Ys, Jagat

[jijaji]

I have for many years been involved in these discussions on Siddha Pranali and other Gaudiya issues.

 

Now let me cut to the chase here.

 

In all those years I am YET to find any western followers who have taken diksha and received information regarding their Siddha-deha ..who actually daily practice this technique.

 

It seems more time is spent on debating it's authenticity to those who misunderstand and condemm it.

 

And most who have taken it put more importance on recieving this than on a daily spiritual practice at least looking at the track record. Most people I know who have taken diksha are far removed from any sadhana it seems...

At least that is what I have seen....

All the endless debate about how without proper diksha one cannot advance in spiritual life etc ..blah blah blah...

 

I say.....

Sitting down with simple meditation and trying to find some stillness inside yourself if done on a daily basis is stronger than being connected to the most noble of sampradayas where you do nothing but debate how important you are.

 

Spiritual realization comes from practice....

Not belonging to a line of teachers who practiced things so difficult and far-removed from this day and age.

 

 

[theist]

Jagat, I have been reading that thread as you post and will go back and read it more attentively.

 

It seems my inability to concentrate long enough on the subject so far points to my lack of qualification for practicing it.Or would that be lack of greed?

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

[Jagat]

I would like to see this discussion take place on the Raganuga discussion board. I am sure there are several devotees out there who would object to your depiction of them as non-practitioners, though humility may prevent them from doing so.

 

I happen to know several humble devotees who practice quite wholeheartedly. They are not many in number, unfortunately, and it is not easy to associate when everyone is spread so far apart.

 

Intellectuals are not always good proselytizers. What are needed to spread Raganuga in the West are good kirtaniyas, poets, performers, entertainers, ecstatics. It may yet happen.

 

As far as identity is concerned: I am talking about a minimum standard of adherence.

 

Yours, Jagat

[theist]

I have another question.I will offer them up one at a time from time to time so it is easier for me to absorb.

 

During the eight different phases of the day does a practioner have eight different meditations that they perform in conjunction with those times.

 

I am having a hard time conceiving of how this practice could fit into our modern world.Is it not just for babaji's?Or at least those who are able to dedicate the whole day to this cultivation?

[Rati]

Just because Jijaji has not met any Westerners that he considers to be absorbed in bhajan to an acceptable level does not mean that they are not out there. When looking for examples we need to look to those that are exemplary and not just point out those that are less than exemplary in order to judge a whole tradition. I think that Jijaji has read about Ronald Nixon, a British subject that lived in the 20th century and became a rasika saint in the Gaudiya tradition. Perhaps he forgot to consider that counter example.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-25-2002).]