Siddha Pranali

[raga]

Originally posted by shiva:

What I said,is not my interpretation.

It is the factual words of the authorized guru's.

Please name these authorized gurus -- I asked alredy earlier, what is the source of your philosophy?

 

If you study the Caitanya Caritamrta,you will find that the intimate devotees of Mahaprabhu,were not engaged in any fantasy,they were dealing with the here and now.

The truth of Mahaprabhu's attitude toward sadhaka's of any type,is revealed in the Caritamrta,and the writings of the acarya's,if you don't take my word for it,investigate,those sources,I am only repeating what i have read,including the sending of the Goswamis away,yes,ragunath was with him for some time,that does not change the truth.

You can't just make a general reference to "shastra and acaryas' writings". You'll have to be more specific. Quote a verse. Then we'll lend an ear to your opinion on raganuga.

 

The fantasy meditation techniques,are bonafide,so are the practices of Saivites,Jews ,christains,Yogi's etc.

They are all part of the path God has led each individual to.

This does not mean that Mahaprabhus followers need to follow raj-yoga,christain penance,jewish holidays and fasting,or muslim kowtows.

While they are all bonafide,the sankirtan yagna,is transcendental to all religious practice.

This includes the fantasy techniques of the vaisnava babas.

The meditational path is of a lower quality,it 's aim is to purify the consciouness of the sadhaka,it is not the goal of bhakti.

In other words, the path advocated and practiced by for instance Bhaktivinoda is of a lower quality. Do you think like this? As we have received the path through our parampara, so we practice and present. What is your line? (I am asking to understand what is the line of mahajanas who teach like this, I can't just take it on your authority.)

 

May I ask, how much are you acquainted with the concept of lila-smarana and its techniques? Its intention is not just to "purify the consciousness". If you read my first post on this thread, you'll see that nama-kirtana comes first to purify the consciousness, lila-smarana is not used for that. This "fantasy" becomes real. Even Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta taught this. See:

 

>> You can imagine that "In my heart I have placed now a very diamond throne, and Krsna is sitting." That is accepted. It is... Actually it becomes. Even within the mind you think that "I have kept one diamond throne, very costly throne, because Krsna is coming. He will sit down here," that is not false. That is a fact. So you create such situation within your heart. "Now Krsna has seated. Let me wash His feet with the Ganges water, Yamuna water. Now I change His dress to a first-class costly garments. Then I decorate with ornaments. Then I give Him for eating." You can simply think of this. This is meditation. Svantah-sthena gadabhrta. It is so nice thing. Anywhere you can sit down and think that Krsna is sitting in your heart and you are receiving in so nice way. They are not false. They are also fact. It is so easy. <<

 

============ Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.13.10 -- Geneva, June 1, 1974

 

The meditation becomes real, it becomes one with the spiritual reality we aspire for. I suggest you check Jagadananda's translation of Bhaktivinoda's Harinam Cintamani, chapter fifteen to get a grasp of the systematic path of raganuga sadhana bhajana. Here: http://raganuga.org/cgi-bin/raga/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=4 .

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

As Srila Prabhupada said,"you create a place in your heart"

This does not mean that you meditate ,and fantasize,about your participation in krsna-lila.

It has an emotional,and spiritual connotation.

For the Bhakti vinode thought,he was a preacher,preaching to an audience,that audience was probably more receptive to a meditational technique,then they would have been to the sankirtan-yagna.

This misconception that because some past acaryas, have spoken about certain techniques for meditation,therefore you should follow their advice, is not supported by Srila Prabhupada,Or Mahaprabhu.

They were giving the very highest thing,direct participation in Krsna-lila,not a fantasy,for the mind,but a participatory reality,for body and soul.

[sha]

Originally posted by shiva:

What I said,is not my interpretation.

It is the factual words of the authorized guru's.

If you study the Caitanya Caritamrta,you will find that the intimate devotees of Mahaprabhu,were not engaged in any fantasy,they were dealing with the here and now.

The truth of Mahaprabhu's attitude toward sadhaka's of any type,is revealed in the Caritamrta,and the writings of the acarya's,if you don't take my word for it,investigate,those sources,I am only repeating what i have read,including the sending of the Goswamis away,yes,ragunath was with him for some time,that does not change the truth.

The fantasy meditation techniques,are bonafide,so are the practices of Saivites,Jews ,christains,Yogi's etc.

They are all part of the path God has led each individual to.

This does not mean that Mahaprabhus followers need to follow raj-yoga,christain penance,jewish holidays and fasting,or muslim kowtows.

While they are all bonafide,the sankirtan yagna,is transcendental to all religious practice.

This includes the fantasy techniques of the vaisnava babas.

The meditational path is of a lower quality,it 's aim is to purify the consciouness of the sadhaka,it is not the goal of bhakti.

The devotee engaged in the congregational chanting,this is not simply harinam kirtan,this sankirtan yagna,is the society of devotees congregationally distributing the message of Sri Gauranga.

This is the sankirtan yagna,it is the goal of bhakti,life in the transcendental realm,engaged in reciprocal rasa with the devotee,tasting,and distributing divine love.

I like your honest observations and sincere approach.

 

 

[Rati]

quote:

--

Originally posted by Rati:

I never thought I personally was the living proof of anything. Just because I never took up the practice of lila smaran and only really have experience with japa meditation does not preclude me from ever successfully taking it up in the future.

 

The jijmeister> Yes I have heard this before as well from those who have taken diksha but do not have much of a practice i.e.

 

jij-o-rama>"Well I have that connection and can always take it up later"

 

gee-oh-gee> That just makes my point regarding belonging to a certain line/group etc as a replacement for realization.

 

 

I think Jijacarya has me confused with someone else. None of my own diksa or siksa gurus gave any instructions on lila smarana practice, just on chanting mantras. I have heard about it from other individuals and read about it in various places. It just seems to me like the way to go to really make advancement, but then again that is just my own personal opinion. It may not be shared by everyone else, however. Some hipsters may like to mix bhajan w/rock n roll, which is cool as well. I heard recordings of songs done by Visnujana Swami years ago that are very much a fusion of Bengali kirtan songs w/a strong rock influence, enough to make one swoon. Hey, you could even perform disco kirtan to inspire people to dance up a storm.

 

Looks like the jijAnanda bumped into a bunch of people that were unable to adhere to whatever practice it was they took to and were inititated into. I guess that just demonstrates that it requires some effort and maybe even some struggle to have any staying power, and is not just a matter of wishful thinking: Many steps along the way, which only we can take.

 

What is really hard to understand is the mentality that teachers are unable to help in any way. I thought that was the nature of teaching: That someone has some knowledge to impart to someone else who does not. If that were not the case, then why would someone have to go to all those years of medical school to be considered qualified to practice medicine?

 

 

[raga]

Originally posted by shiva:

As Srila Prabhupada said,"you create a place in your heart"

This does not mean that you meditate ,and fantasize,about your participation in krsna-lila.

Why not? He said, "you can imagine", "it becomes real". You don't like it?

 

Oh, I will create a very beautiful place in my heart, and I will imagine and fantasize that I am rendering all kinds of exquisite and wonderful services! And one day, when Radha and Syama recognize desires, They will appear in this very beautiful mandir I have prepared for Them, and accept all the service I have imagined and fantasized about, longing to please Them... And it becomes real! Isn't this wonderful?! Who will stop me, who will prevent me from doing this? Can you?

 

 

For the Bhakti vinode thought,he was a preacher,preaching to an audience,that audience was probably more receptive to a meditational technique,then they would have been to the sankirtan-yagna.

Yes, Bhaktivinoda, like pretty much all the other Gaudiya acaryas of the past, were keen of sharing their understanding of the methods of sadhan with others. Perhaps you might want to follow in the footsteps of Bhaktivinoda, observing that the audience here is inclined towards these traditional methods of meditation, and stop trying to convince us about its not being the approved path of the acaryas?

 

For the record, lila-smarana and nama-kirtana go together. Not that one or the other only. This is the way it has always been for the serious practitioners of raganuga. You can disagree all you want, but it does not change the history of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition and its practices.

 

 

This misconception that because some past acaryas, have spoken about certain techniques for meditation,therefore you should follow their advice, is not supported by Srila Prabhupada,Or Mahaprabhu.

I would like to add that acaryas of both past and present have spoken, do speak and will continue to speak about these certain techniques of meditation.

 

And I would like to add that there is no record of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's stating that He does not support the idea that we should not adopt the methods of sadhana taught by the acaryas. Interestingly enough, according to Bhaktivinoda, He does state the following in the 15th chapter of Harinama Cintamani, having first heard from Haridasa about these techniques of meditation taught by the acaryas of the past:

 

zuna haridAsa ei lIlA saMgopane

vizva andhakAra karibeka duSTa jane

sei kAle tomAra e caramopadeza

avaziSTa sAdhu-jane bujhibe vizeSa

ei tattva nAmAzraye niSkiJcana jana

nirjane basiyA kRSNa karibe bhajana

 

"Listen Hari Das, when these pastimes of Mine become invisible to the world, wicked people will again plunge the world back into darkness. When that happens, these final instructions you have given will remain to inspire the few saintly people who remain.

The dispossessed devotee will take shelter of this teaching and the Holy Name, and sitting in a secluded place, will worship Lord Krishna."

 

To conclude with, I would like to announce to everyone that it may so happen that upon reading the next posting of Shivaji in this regard I become so overwhelmed that perhaps I will no longer be able to respond.

 

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 04-26-2002).]

[raga]

Yea..

 

Make everyone in the world into Gaudiya Vaishnavas, a scarry way to think.

Well, if people come and ask me for a spiritual path, that's what I present to them (of course according to their eligibility), because that's what I know and that's what I like. If they go elsewhere, they will learn about another path. Let them practice whatever fits them.

 

Whether Gaudiya Vaishnava or anything else, it is a scary idea that there are people who are unable to tolerate forms of spirituality different from theirs.

[raga]

More on ekadasa-bhava just in case the earlier explanation didn't make it clear; from Dhyanacandra's paddhati.

 

http://raganuga.org/cgi-bin/raga/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=4;t=13;st=0

[Guest guest]

 

I think you misunderstand me,so please forgive any offense I may have caused.

I didn't want to imply that what you say is not bonafide,I don't think that is what i said.

I am saying that there is the idea being promulgated, that the fantasy techniques, are the next stage of bhakti, after one has advanced in sadhana bhakti.

This I disagree with,I do not support that the path of inner meditation on your interpretation of krsna-lila,is the destination or goal of Sri Caitanya's path of Sankirtan yagna.

The techniques you proscribe are not superior to the sankirtan yagna,they are another path of sadhana,not the goal.

The goal is to realize our eternal position as the servant of the servant,then to act in that capacity.

To simply think, that by fantasizing,about our own interpretation of krsna-lila,that we are involved in the highest devotional service,is a mistake.

The pastimes of Sri Caitanya,are non-different then the pastimes of Sri Radha Krsna,the highest service is to recognize this reality.

 

[Rati]

Some scholar in India (I not forget who exactly, because it was many years ago) once told me that all of the Vaishnava sampradAyas (not just the Gaudiyas) have siddha praNAlis. The rAdhA-vAllabhis in Gujarat, for example, have praNAlis wherein they have vAtsalya rasa (the bAla-kRSNa murti is a favorite form for them).

 

That would be interesting material, if anyone has any more information about it. It could mean an even earlier date for the practice than the time of Rupa Goswami.

 

 

[raga]

Originally posted by shiva:

I think you misunderstand me,so please forgive any offense I may have caused.

I'm afraid it is the other way around. You have not understood what I am presenting, and you are objecting to something I have not said. Read on.

I am saying that there is the idea being promulgated, that the fantasy techniques, are the next stage of bhakti, after one has advanced in sadhana bhakti. This I disagree with,I do not support that the path of inner meditation on your interpretation of krsna-lila,is the destination or goal of Sri Caitanya's path of Sankirtan yagna.

Was it ever said that the sadhana of asta-kaliya-lila smarana is superior to siddhi?

 

The point I am making is that nama-sankirtana and lila-smarana go together. According to Srila Rupa Gosvami (Upadesamrta, 8), the essence of all instructions is the following:

 

<center>tan-nAma-rUpa-caritAdi-sukIrtanAnu-

smRtyoH krameNa rasanA-manasI niyojya

tiSThan vraje tad-anurAgi janAnugAmI

kAlaM nayed akhilam ity upadeza-sAram</center>

"Living in Vraja and following in the wake of those who possess natural attachment to Him, one should engage all of his time in sequentially engaging his tongue and his mind in the beautiful glorification of the name, form, characteristics and pastimes of Sri Krishna. This is the essence of all instructions."

 

This is the essence.

 

The techniques you proscribe are not superior to the sankirtan yagna,they are another path of sadhana,not the goal.

As was earlier pointed out, they are not another path of sadhana, they are an aspect in the same path of sadhana.

 

To simply think, that by fantasizing,about our own interpretation of krsna-lila,that we are involved in the highest devotional service,is a mistake.

Of course it is a mistake. Sadhana is sadhana and siddhi is siddhi. Did anyone advocate anything different?

 

The quote above shows it very clearly that you are not actually responding to what I have presented about the path of raganuga, siddha-pranali and lila-smarana.

 

It shows that you are responding to what some antagonist falsely presented as the view of those who are engaged in lila-smarana and related practices, such as the giving of siddha-pranali. As you said,

 

" I am saying that there is the idea being promulgated,"

 

May I ask, who is promulgating this idea? I am not. None of the points you are defeating were presented by me, nor indeed by anyone in this thread.

 

It would be appropriate if you would mention against whose conceptions you are arguing.

 

The pastimes of Sri Caitanya,are non-different then the pastimes of Sri Radha Krsna,the highest service is to recognize this reality.

Yes. Therefore these pastimes are to be contemplated upon in sequence -- first the sankirtan pastimes of Mahaprabhu, and then the pastimes of Radha-Krishna. The pastimes of Radha-Krishna naturally follow Mahaprabhu's absorption in Vraja-bhava in his pastimes. This is the path prescribed in all the prominent Gutikas we see.

 

Oh, and to conclude with -- all of this goes together with nama-sankirtana, in case it was not clear from the above.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 04-30-2002).]

[Guest guest]

One should endevour to control the mind which is capable of produing all kinds of hallucinations. The proof of having controlled the mind is realization of the Paramatma (BG). For one who has not realized the Paramatma, it should be obvious that the mind is not controlled. Even on the path to controlling the mind one gets a lot of siddhis like being able to see the future and seeing demigods etc. For one who is unable to do these, even though one may ignore these, it should be obvious that the success in controlling the mind is far far away. Equanimity is the basic definition of yoga - samthvam yogam ucyate. So a sadhaka should first endeavour to control the mind by following the niyamas of bhakti yoga.

 

We cannot see the Absolute Truth through our mental imagination leave alone participating in His lilas. Sastram Yonitvat. We should see with the eyes of sastras. Any discussion on spiritual realization should be based on the sastras. That is the purpose of the sastras to be the bank of the flow of realizations and to guide the flow to the ultimate realization of the Absolute Truth. Without the guidance of sastras, we will not succeed in controlling the senses and detaching ourselves from this material world and we will end up in the clutches of lusty desires in the name of relishing Krishna Prema. Such an external act of devotional service is a mere disturbance in the society.

[raga]

Originally posted by ram:

So a sadhaka should first endeavour to control the mind by following the niyamas of bhakti yoga.

Would you define the niyamas of bhakti yoga to be followed according to bhakti-sastra, as you see it?

 

[Bhaktavasya]

Originally posted by raga:

Why not? He said, "you can imagine", "it becomes real". You don't like it?

 

Oh, I will create a very beautiful place in my heart, and I will imagine and fantasize that I am rendering all kinds of exquisite and wonderful services! And one day, when Radha and Syama recognize desires, They will appear in this very beautiful mandir I have prepared for Them, and accept all the service I have imagined and fantasized about, longing to please Them... And it becomes real! Isn't this wonderful?! Who will stop me, who will prevent me from doing this? Can you?

 

 

 

 

B]

Right on! Fantasizing about serving Radha and Krishna can only come to an auspicious end or better yet, beginning.

 

 

[raga]

I would like to present another well known and successful account of imagination. This is from the commentary of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada on the 7th canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, chapter 5, verses 23-24.

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

 

"In the city of Pratisthana-pura, long ago, there resided a brahmana who was poverty-stricken but innocent and not dissatisfied. One day he heard a discourse in an assembly of brahmanas concerning how to worship the Deity in the temple. In that meeting, he also heard that the Deity may be worshiped within the mind. After this incident, the brahmana, having bathed in the Godavari River, began mentally worshiping the Deity. He would wash the temple within his mind, and then in his imagination he would bring water from all the sacred rivers in golden and silver waterpots. He collected all kinds of valuable paraphernalia for worship, and he worshiped the Deity very gorgeously, beginning from bathing the Deity and ending with offering arati. Thus he felt great happiness. After many years had passed in this way, one day within his mind he cooked nice sweet rice with ghee to worship the Deity. He placed the sweet rice on a golden dish and offered it to Lord Krsna, but he felt that the sweet rice was very hot, and therefore he touched it with his finger. He immediately felt that his finger had been burned by the hot sweet rice, and thus he began to lament. While the brahmana was in pain, Lord Visnu in Vaikuntha began smiling, and the goddess of fortune inquired from the Lord why He was smiling. Lord Visnu then ordered His associates to bring the brahmana to Vaikuntha. Thus the brahmana attained the liberation of samipya, the facility of living near the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

 

[raga]

This process of mental service is also authorized by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu (Caitanya Caritamrta, Antya-lila, 6.237):

 

amAnI mAnada haJA kRSNa-nAma sadA la?be

vraje rAdhA-kRSNa-sevA mAnase karibe

 

"Do not expect honor, but offer all respect to others. Always chant the holy name of Lord Krishna, and within your mind render service to Radha and Krishna in Vrndavana."

[raga]

The example of the exquisite mental service rendered by Nrsimhananda Brahmacari is also very famous (Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila, 1.155-159):

 

* * * * * * * * * * * *

 

vRndAvana yAbena prabhu zuni' nRsiMhAnanda

patha sAjAila mane pAiyA Ananda

 

When Sri Nrsimhananda Brahmacari heard that Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu would go to Vrndavana, he became very pleased and mentally began decorating the way there.

 

kuliyA nagara haite patha ratne bAndhAila

nivRnta puSpa-zayyA upare pAtila

 

First Nrsimhananda Brahmacari contemplated a broad road starting from the city of Kuliya. He bedecked the road with jewels, upon which he then laid a bed of stemless flowers.

 

pathe dui dike puSpa-bakulera zreNI

madhye madhye dui-pAze divya puSkariNI

 

He decorated both sides of the road with bakula flower trees, and at intervals on both sides he placed lakes of a transcendental nature.

 

ratna-bAGdhA ghATa, tAhe praphulla kamala

nAnA pakSi-kolAhala, sudhA-sama jala

 

These lakes had bathing places constructed with jewels, and they were filled with blossoming lotus flowers. There were various birds chirping, and the water was exactly like nectar.

 

zItala samIra vahe nAnA gandha laJA

'kAnAira nATazAlA' paryanta la-ila bAndhiJA

 

The entire road was surcharged with many cool breezes, which carried the fragrances from various flowers. He carried the construction of this road as far as Kanai Natasala.

 

* * * * * * * * * * * *

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-01-2002).]

[raga]

Of course, before anyone gets the chance to say that I am advocating this process to anyone and everyone, I'll say:

 

"Don't try this at home!"

 

In other words, practice this only under the supervision of a qualified guru who is expert in rendering such mental services.

[raga]

And the final note for my monologue:

 

<font face="Georgia" color=red size=2>Don't think this mental service is only for those who are perfected. It is a part of practice.</font>

 

<center>bAhya, antara,ihAra dui ta' sAdhana

'bAhye' sAdhaka-dehe kare zravaNa-kIrtana

'mane' nija-siddha-deha kariyA bhAvana

rAtri-dine kare vraje kRSNera sevana</center>

"There are indeed two aspects to this practice, the external and the internal. Externally, within the practitioner's body, one hears and chants, and within one's mind, day and night one thinks about oneself in his siddha-deha, serving Sri Krishna in Vraja day and night."

 

(Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila, 22.157)

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-01-2002).]

[Jagat]

The point is that people are afraid of what others will think.

 

Who out there wants to be a gopi in Vraja lila? Think hard before answering.

 

If you're in a man's body, what does that mean to want to be a woman? Is it psychologically sound? Is it a sign of latent homosexuality?

 

And what is the psychological significance of denying sexuality on the natural, physical plane in order to vicariously enjoy Radha and Krishna's sex life in a kind of spiritual voyeurism?

 

And yet, unless you are a Sahajiya who accepts the Radha-Krishna symbol at face value, this is the ultimate goal of your Vaishnavism, whether you are a so-called raganuga bhakta (who cultivates gopi-bhava) or a vaidha bhakta (who expects gopi-bhava to come to him or her by magic). You cannot escape it.

 

The point is that there are huge hurdles to overcome before one can "cross over" to raganuga bhakti and accepting siddha pranali. All those who think it is cheap should think again.

 

[sha]

Who out there wants to be a gopi in Vraja lila? Think hard before answering.

I am reminded of two great Divine personalities in their 'male' bodies, who had to give up their sexuality in order to enter the Nikunja Lila of Divine Couple.

1. Lord Shiva who entered Maharaasa as Gopisvara

2. Arjuna of Mahabharata was also transformed into a Gopi, when Lord Krishna took him to His Divine abode.

(Patala Khanda of Padma Purana)

 

All those who think it is cheap should think again.

[This message has been edited by sha (edited 05-01-2002).]

[theist]

Bold originally posted by Jagat:

The point is that people are afraid of what others will think.

 

Who else would know unless you felt some need to broadcast your own inner practice?

 

Who out there wants to be a gopi in Vraja lila? Think hard before answering.

 

How can this question be answered by a conditioned soul since whatever conception we form as to what it is to be a gopi in Vraja lila will be something based on material conceptions?

 

If you're in a man's body, what does that mean to want to be a woman? Is it psychologically sound? Is it a sign of latent homosexuality?

 

Isn't this like trying to capture the kingdom of God by force?If one is confronted with such a struggle perhaps it would be more productive to first shed the false identification with the male body and pysche.It is enough for me at least to try and accept the fact that I am the enjoyed energy of Krishna, let alone grapple with the details of how I want to be enjoyed by Him.

 

And what is the psychological significance of denying sexuality on the natural, physical plane in order to vicariously enjoy Radha and Krishna's sex life in a kind of spiritual voyeurism?

 

For me this question is not pressing. It may be for others.I am trying to overcome sex desire so I can stop revolving in birth and death.To know my basic nature as spiritsoul.Once I can get beyond trying to be the enjoyer I plan on cultivating the specific desires that are inherent in me in relation to that realm.

 

It also may be that just prior to my emancipation these questions may become more personally relevant.Kind of a slight overlapping.Until then it is just intellectual fun sometimes.

 

And yet, unless you are a Sahajiya who accepts the Radha-Krishna symbol at face value, this is the ultimate goal of your Vaishnavism, whether you are a so-called raganuga bhakta (who cultivates gopi-bhava) or a vaidha bhakta (who expects gopi-bhava to come to him or her by magic). You cannot escape it.

 

Yes, "ultimate goal".When I climb a ladder I find it prudent to place the bulk of my concentration on being secure in my stepping up to the next immediate rung.I don't just try and take a big step to the top,that would cause a fall,even though I know the top is the goal.

 

I have never heard anyone suggest magic.Some suggest a natural enfolding due to the influence of the Holy Name.

 

The point is that there are huge hurdles to overcome before one can "cross over" to raganuga bhakti and accepting siddha pranali. All those who think it is cheap should think again.

 

Agreed.But isn't this another way of saying first "deserve"(by overcoming some of those hurdles) and then "desire", by then focusing on sentiments that are the most intimate of that realm of Vraja?

 

I don't understand the intricacies of this practice so I have no set opinion on this issue.I do hope to learn more however.

 

Hare Krishna,

theist

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-01-2002).]

[jijaji]

The whole idea of someone (guru) confirming upon you your secret inner eternal self by following an outline given by the school they belong to seems questionable to me.

 

How can someone know the inner recesses of your eternal being by following a template of sorts?

 

Also to answer someones question from before...

 

A similar type of siddha-pranali that is given in Gaudiya Vaishnavism is seen to be offered to sadhakas of other sects within sanatan dharma. The Shaivites in some sects in S.India offer a similar kind of 'Siddha Deha' in which one becomes identified with leela of Shiva, it is seen in some shakta sects as well.

 

and if anyone is interested...

 

I for one do NOT want to spend eternity as a gopi in a sari collecting flowers or making garlands.

 

Just like I don't want to spend eternity doing the 'Stations of the Cross'...

 

[raga]

Originally posted by jijaji:

How can someone know the inner recesses of your eternal being by following a template of sorts?

What do you mean "a template"? It is not a mechanistic thing. http://raganuga.org/cgi-bin/raga/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST&f=1&t=14

 

If the siddha-deha is revealed by Bhagavan Himself via the medium of the guru's trance, and considering that Bhagavan manifests as the guru and as the antaryami to guide us, how would there be no access to our inner recesses of our eternal being?

 

Of course to digest this, one has to believe how IzvaraH sarva-bhUtAnAM hRd-deze ?rjuna tiSThati, upadraSTAnumantA ca bhartA bhoktA mahezvaraH paramAtmeti cApy ukto dehe ?smin puruSaH paraH and the like.

 

I for one do NOT want to spend eternity as a gopi in a sari collecting flowers or making garlands.

Have you thought, my friend, where are you going to spend your eternity?

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-01-2002).]

[jijaji]

quote:

Have you thought, my friend, where are you going to spend your eternity ?

 

jijaji:

Funny indeed... I remember seeing that exact question on a little fundy christian hand-out given to me one time.

 

On the inside of this hand-out it explained how if I didn't accept their terms of eternity (christ being the ONLY way the truth the light etc)..

I would be thrown into a lake of fire! They had the quotes and everything from their scripture(The Bible)to prove it..

 

I was caught in a predicament...

so...

I ran away laughing as fast as I could..

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-01-2002).]

[theist]

Originally posted by raga:

If the siddha-deha is revealed by Bhagavan Himself via the medium of the guru's trance, and considering that Bhagavan manifests as the guru and as the antaryami to guide us, how would there be no access to our inner recesses of our eternal being?

 

That is a big IF though Raga, wouldn't you agree.

And if that guru wasn't receiving that info from Bhagavan Himself there is a lot of room for deception.Or at least what he would be giving you was a protytpe or template."Your name is Sweetie Manjari, and you wear a golden sari and your seva is to collect the little pink flowers that grow on the bank of the Jamuna" etc.

 

This gives rise to legitimate questions.

 

Are the saris in Goloka never composed of colors beyond what we experience here on Earth?How do you meditate on a color for which you have no prior experience, for example.What you would be picturing is just a facsimile,a prototype or template of the actual thing.

 

I am not questioning the reality of the process its self but I do see a lot of room for misrepresentation.

 

Surely you would agree,right?

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-01-2002).]