Siddha Pranali

[raga]

Originally posted by theist:

That is a big IF though Raga, wouldn't you agree.

And if that guru wasn't receiving that info from Bhagavan Himself there is a lot of room for deception.Or at least what he would be giving you was a protytpe or template."Your name is Sweetie Manjari, and you wear a golden sari and your seva is to collect the little pink flowers that grow on the bank of the Jamuna" etc.

See the end of page one of the discussion where I linked you to in my previous posting. There is certainly room for misrepresentation, and what counts is the sincerity of the individual, for according to our desires we obtain a particular kind of faith and so on.

 

Are the saris in Goloka never composed of colors beyond what we experience here on Earth? How do you meditate on a color for which you have no prior experience, for example. What you would be picturing is just a facsimile,a prototype or template of the actual thing.

This world is a shadow of the one beyond. Nothing here is exactly like the experience there, since all objects of observation here consist of matter, whereas there they are made of radiant pure spirit.

 

Of course, initially the siddha-deha is a "prototype" to the sadhaka, so to say, simply due to the fact that the consciousness of the sadhaka is still clouded to an extent by the mundane. But this does not mean that the siddha-deha we are assigned to is a prototype in itself.

 

Gradually, as the svarupa-shakti overtakes the sensory and mental functions (as in the example of iron and fire), the experiences turn more vivid, real, and original. This siddha-deha exists already there in the realm of spirit, although in an inactive state, as explained by Jiva Gosvamin. We are to gradually link up with it via the medium of sadhana, and of course, guru-kripa.

 

 

[Jagat]

To Jijaji--

 

This is a question that I keep coming back to--if the Raganuga mentality is to be considered meaningful, it has to have meaningfulness here and now. After all, eternity is meaningless. Now is the only meaningful time; here the only meaningful place.

 

"Other worldly" religion has been unfashionable since Voltaire, though it lingers on the suspicious peripheries, where we indeed are, along with Jehovah's Witnesses and 18-year-old suicide bombers in Palestine, headed off to their Jannat and its houris.

 

"This worldly" religion explains why karma has become the dominant interpretation of the Gita, over bhakti and jnana. It is the reason "I am not this body" is treated with such suspicion by people in general as an explanation for the mind/body dichotomy. How can anyone deny something so integral to their being as the body? they ask. And, how does such denial corrupt one's dealings with the world, one's self, and others?

 

This is why theologians in the 50's said, "If you meet God on the street, kill Him!"

 

This is why Buddhism as an oriental spiritual culture has been so much more successful than Krishna consciousness--because the Zen idea that one should be perfectly present in the here and now fits the this-worldly mindset of the people in the West. Add a little Tibetan ritualism and color to the mix and it's "just right."

 

This is why charity is considered such a high value in Christianity, and why political activism is a very real part of Christian consciousness in many churches.

 

Whenever the other world becomes more important than this one, many questions arise. And many different answers have been provided--none of which take very seriously the response that "It is true because the Shastra tells me so."

 

Particular visions of God are projections outward from the subconscious contents of particular peoples at particular historical times and periods, which become absolutely meaningful to those people for precise psychological reasons. The more violently a particular group of people feels alienated from a particular status quo, the more radically they will change the symbolic language they use to interpret reality.

 

In order for a particular symbolic language to become universally effective, or at least broadly based in a society or community, it must have a richness that reaches into all strata of that society. Philosophy is not enough; rich symbols have to be at the center. Their transcendence is a statement of their deep meaningfulness, but their effectivenes depends on their capacity to have meaning even to people who have a this-worldly understanding of life.

 

The protectors of the divine symbols are usually those who have an other-worldly approach to them, but they often misunderstand their relation to the rest of their community, thinking that everyone must be a martyr to the cause like them. Most people just want to "have life and have it more fully."

 

So the question is, "Does being a manjari have any significance in the here and now?"

 

OR, if the manjari identity is only for the devotional elite, then what meanings is this elite preserving for those who are in the world?

 

And, if even the symbols that this elite is preserving, namely the erotic pastimes of Radha and Krishna, are so alien to the interests of "this world" that they must be dissimulated and replaced by other, simpler, karma-oriented symbols--Krishna on the chariot with Arjuna telling him to do his duty, Nrisingha destroying Hiranyakashipu, assuring the protection of the pious, or Rama, the maryada purushottam--then what exactly what was this whole Radha-Krishna madness all about in the 16th century anyway?

 

alam ati-pallavitena. grantha-gaurava-bhiyA adhikaM na vistAritam. yathA-samaye tat vyaktIbhaviSyati.<small><font color=#f7f7f7>

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 05-01-2002).]

[theist]

Originally posted by raga:

This world is a shadow of the one beyond. Nothing here is exactly like the experience there, since all objects of observation here consist of matter, whereas there they are made of radiant pure spirit.

 

Of course, initially the siddha-deha is a "prototype" to the sadhaka, so to say, simply due to the fact that the consciousness of the sadhaka is still clouded to an extent by the mundane. But this does not mean that the siddha-deha we are assigned to is a prototype in itself.

 

Gradually, as the svarupa-shakti overtakes the sensory and mental functions (as in the example of iron and fire), the experiences turn more vivid, real, and original. This siddha-deha exists already there in the realm of spirit, although in an inactive state, as explained by Jiva Gosvamin. We are to gradually link up with it via the medium of sadhana, and of course, guru-kripa.

 

 

Raga,

Nice explanation.Couldn't the same be said for those who are concentrating exclusively on the Holy Name?One may have been given the pure name in its fullness from the right source but in fact we may be experiencing only a reflection of it.

 

I've listened in to a few of these discussions before and have not been able to understand what there is to debate.Afterall even as I am placing fruit and flowers before the Deity I am executing that with my dream body(gross form).

 

That some have been pretentious in their practice and presentations can be said for the preachers as well as the babaji class.

 

But maybe I am just missing the finer points.

 

Do you consider this specific pratice (and initiation into it) as an indespensible step in attaining gopi-bhava or do you allow the same can manifest from the Name alone?

[Guest guest]

 

The reality of the absolute truth, may be different then your perception of it,on the path to become conscious of that absolute truth.

This is the reality behind all of this discussion.

The sastra says something,to the person who is not aware of the different meanings,hidden,in the verses,they will only accept the literal meaning.

This is the problem.

The devotee who actually has attained revelation of his eternal swarup,is reading a verse, like one you may have quoted,

about doing some service in the bushes of Vraja etc,what he understands from a particular verse or story,is different, then the devotee who is unaware of his siddha-pranali.

This is the reality of the situation,what you may think constitutes the highest reality,to the actual devotee in the direct participation in that highest state of self realization,your thinking might be percieved as immature.

For an example,it has been stated in sastras, that upon gaining entrance into Vaikuntha,one attains his four armed form,and that all the residents of Vaikuntha are exhibiting the four armed form.

To the devotee unaware of the highest reality,the literal definition will be accepted.

To the self realized soul,he knows that in Vaikuntha,the residents do not actually have four arms,two on each shoulder.

He knows that the hidden meaning, of attaining the four armed form, is that a literary device, to keep the truth hidden,from those not ready to know the truth,is being used.

The four armed form, is the result of the embrace of two people,this is the hidden truth.

Similarly the verses and stories pertaining to Radha,Krsna,and the activities of the residents of Vraja,are also using the same literary technique.

What you percieve,the literal meaning,is not necessarily, the actually intended, ultimate,revelation in a particular verse or story.

This is why we are warned about spending an inordinate amount of time,contemplating Conjugal lila,and our role,before we are actually aware of the hidden truths.

 

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 05-01-2002).]

[jijaji]

The Baul word for God is adhar manush, the essential man. He worships man. He says, inside you and me, inside everybody, there is an essential being. That essential being is all. To find that adhar manush, that essential man, is the whole search.

 

To reach to the essential man, you have to go through the spontaneous man.

Spontaneity is the only way to reach to the essence...

 

The Baul is not in any way controlled and disciplined. Bauls knows no rituals. They are against rituals because....

"A ritualized person is a dead person."

He cannot be spontaneous.

 

A person who follows rituals, formalities too much, creates so many habits around him that there is no need to be alert. Alertness is lost & habits are formed. Then the man of rituals lives through habits.

 

Bauls don't follow any ritual, they don't have any technique, they don't have any habit. No two Bauls that are similar; they are individuals.

 

And that's what real spirituality really is: it is an individual approach towards truth.

 

According to 'Baulism' which is very similar to the 'Hippy Movement's'.....

 

'Bagism' or 'Shagism'...

 

You gotta to go it alone, try to find your own unique groove, your own vibe! You cannot follow another, you cannot move on a ready-made track.

 

The more you search your own way, the closer you will be to God, or to truth, or to reality.

At least this is the 'Baul 'Perspective...

 

No..I'm not a 'Baul'....

 

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-01-2002).]

[Shashi]

Originally posted by jijaji:

The Baul is not in any way controlled and disciplined. Bauls knows no rituals. They are against rituals because....

"A ritualized person is a dead person."

He cannot be spontaneous.

 

 

Jijaji I am wandering is not the avoidance of the rituals itself a discipline also?

 

 

[Shashi]

Originally posted by Jagat:

To Jijaji--

 

After all, eternity is meaningless. Now is the only meaningful time; here the only meaningful place.

 

 

Jagatji now is not the time as you are saying but now is being the eternity itself.

 

 

 

[Jagat]

"You gotta go it alone."

 

That goes without saying. But if you want to learn how to do something, it is best to learn it from someone. It is also best to follow a particular system well before devising your own.

 

There are a lot of dilettantes around, all worthy human beings no doubt, picking up a little bit here and a little bit there. This is like going to University and taking nothing but electives.

 

 

[jijaji]

Originally posted by Shashi:

Jijaji I am wandering is not the avoidance of the rituals itself a discipline also?

 

 

Seems likely, like the method of dropping all methods huh?

 

 

 

[Shashi]

Originally posted by Jagat:

 

There are a lot of dilettantes around, all worthy human beings no doubt, picking up a little bit here and a little bit there. This is like going to University and taking nothing but electives.

 

 

Ohh JagatJi is not the going to the Univarsity an elective in itself or is it being compulsory in your country?

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Shashi (edited 05-01-2002).]

[jijaji]

How can you see in a seed the flowers that will come one day years later down the road?

 

What if you are a Rose and not the Lotus that is expected?

 

Johannes Wolfgang von Goethe said.."All theory, dear friend is grey. But the golden tree of actual life springs ever green."

 

The Buddha said.."Be a Light Unto Yourself"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-01-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by raga:

Would you define the niyamas of bhakti yoga to be followed according to bhakti-sastra, as you see it?

One should give knowledge only to those who do not know. If you do not the niyamas and desire to know, one would be obliged to share this knowledge. Would you honestly say that you do not have knowledge of the niyamas ?

 

 

[jijaji]

Do I need a teacher in order to go forward in the spiritual life?

 

Good friends and experienced mentors can be very helpful. Be open to the influence of others, but not overly dependent on them. It is always healthy to maintain a certain amount of critical judgment for yourself.

 

Lama Surya Das

 

[jijaji]

The Instruction to the Kalamas

Translated from the Pali

by Soma Thera

 

The Kalamas of Kesaputta go to see the Buddha

1. I heard thus. Once the Blessed One, while wandering in the Kosala country with a large community of bhikkhus, entered a town

of the Kalama people called Kesaputta.

 

2. Then the Kalamas who were inhabitants of Kesaputta went to where the Blessed One was. On arriving there some paid homage to

him and sat down on one side; some exchanged greetings with him and after the ending of cordial memorable talk, sat down on one side; some saluted him raising their joined palms and sat down on one side; some announced their name and family and sat down on one side; some without speaking, sat down on one side.

The Kalamas of Kesaputta ask for guidance from the Buddha

3. The Kalamas who were inhabitants of Kesaputta sitting on one side said to the Blessed One: "There are some monks and brahmins, venerable sir, who visit Kesaputta. They expound and explain only

their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Some other monks and brahmins too, venerable sir, come to Kesaputta. They also expound and explain only their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Venerable sir, there is doubt, there is

uncertainty in us concerning them. Which of these reverend monks and brahmins spoke the truth and which falsehood?"

The criterion for rejection

4. "It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come,

Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you

yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.

 

[Shashi]

Originally posted by jijaji:

The Kalamas of Kesaputta go to see the Buddha

1. I heard thus. Once the Blessed One, while wandering in the Kosala country with a large community of bhikkhus, entered a town

of the Kalama people called Kesaputta.

 

2. Then the Kalamas who were inhabitants of Kesaputta went to where the Blessed One was. On arriving there some paid homage to

him and sat down on one side; some exchanged greetings with him and after the ending of cordial memorable talk, sat down on one side; some saluted him raising their joined palms and sat down on one side; some announced their name and family and sat down on one side; some without speaking, sat down on one side.

The Kalamas of Kesaputta ask for guidance from the Buddha

3. The Kalamas who were inhabitants of Kesaputta sitting on one side said to the Blessed One: "There are some monks and brahmins, venerable sir, who visit Kesaputta. They expound and explain only

their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Some other monks and brahmins too, venerable sir, come to Kesaputta. They also expound and explain only their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Venerable sir, there is doubt, there is

uncertainty in us concerning them. Which of these reverend monks and brahmins spoke the truth and which falsehood?"

The criterion for rejection

4. "It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come,

Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you

yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.

 

 

One must be relying on the inner conviction of one's own self and one's own intuition.

The Buddha is having said so!

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Shashi (edited 05-02-2002).]

[jijaji]

[raga]

Originally posted by ram:

One should give knowledge only to those who do not know. If you do not the niyamas and desire to know, one would be obliged to share this knowledge. Would you honestly say that you do not have knowledge of the niyamas ?

 

 

Ram, you know this assertion of yours is not true. Where is it advised that knowledge is only to be given to the class of men who do not know? Then, for the most part, we should be quiet all the time, since in this world there are a lot of people who know the same things as we do, if not more.

 

If you would believe it yourself, you would not have made your initial post in this forum, since there are many long-time practitioners of bhakti here who certainly are aware of the things you attempted to present.

 

Please tell us about the niyamas of bhakti according to Hari-bhakti-vilasa. Upadesamrta we all know. Honestly, I have not read Hari-bhakti-vilasa, the essential yama-niyama-book for the Gaudiyas, cover to cover, so please do feel obliged to advice us on the essential niyamas according to Hari-bhakti-vilasa.

 

It is interesting to note that the word "niyama" is not once mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita. At any rate, "yama", or positive assertions, come before niyama. In the Gita (2.59), the philosophy of attaining freedom from the lower urges and conquering the mind is presented:

 

<center>viSayA vinivartante

nirAhArasya dehinaH

rasa-varjaM raso ?py asya

paraM dRSTvA nivartate</center>

"The embodied soul may practice restraint from the objects of sensual enjoyment by negative restrictions, but the taste for them will remain. Upon experiencing a higher taste, he ceases to hanker for them."

 

It is obvious from the Gita that bhakti is not a path of progress through niyamas. Instead, it is a path of progress through positive experiences of the divine.

 

Upon gaining access to a higher source of *rasa*, the taste for inferior rasa ceases. And this is what raganuga-bhakti and siddha-pranali is all about.

 

Bhaktivinoda states in the Gita-mala, in the chapter called "Rupanuga-bhajana-darpana":

 

<center>baidhi bhakti dhira gati, raganuga tivra ati,

ati sighra rasavastha pay

ragavartma-su-sadhane, ruci hoy jar mane,

rupanuga hoite sei dhay</center>

"Vaidhi bhakti progresses very slowly toward the goal, but raganuga bhakti moves extremely fast, and enables one to be quickly situated in the tasty transcendental mellows. By following the path of spontaneous devotional service, real taste awakens in one's mind, and he runs and chases after that current which flows from the lotus feet of Sri Rupa."

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-02-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-02-2002).]

[raga]

Theman: Nice explanation.Couldn't the same be said for those who are concentrating exclusively on the Holy Name? One may have been given the pure name in its fullness from the right source but in fact we may be experiencing only a reflection of it.

. . . . .

Do you consider this specific pratice (and initiation into it) as an indespensible step in attaining gopi-bhava or do you allow the same can manifest from the Name alone?

Of course Harinama is cintamani, a divine desire-fulfilling gem, and may yield any perfection at any time for the sincere practitioner.

 

However, at the same time, all perfection is dependent on guru-kripa. yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasya prasadad na gatih kuto'pi. Bearing this in mind, it is certainly recommendable to obtain the guru's blessing for one's aspiration, even if one has already obtained an insight of his coveted siddha-deha by the grace of harinama.

 

Guru is saksad-dhari -- on account of his dearness to Hari, he is directly Hari, and the disciple sees him as the localized manifestation (vyasti-guru) of Hari as the universal guru (samastiki-guru). Hence, it would stand to reason to approach the manifestation of Hari sent to give us instructions for this particular brand of information as well.

 

 

[raga]

In regards to my posting above, as well as some of the earlier postings in this thread, I must note that of course all of this sounds absurd to someone who does not have the belief that Bhagavan appears in the form of guru to guide the souls in this world.

 

It boils down to the age-old question, "Do you believe in God, my friend?"

 

"Have you thought..."

[jijaji]

Speak to us now of religion

by Kahlil Gibran

 

And they said to him, speak to us now of religion, and he responded:

Have I spoken this day of ought else?

 

Is not religion all deeds and all reflection,

 

And that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul, even while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom?

 

Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupation?

 

Who can spread his hours before him, saying, "This for God and this for myself; This for my soul, and this other for my body.?"

 

Your daily life is your temple and your religion. Whenever you enter into it take with you your all.

 

And if you would know God be not therefore a solver of riddles.

 

Rather, look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.

 

And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning and descending in rain.

 

You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in the trees.

 

[jijaji]

Some quotes from "On the Road"

by Jack Kerouac..

 

"The one thing we yearn for in our living days, that makes us sigh and groan and undergo sweet nauseas of all kinds, is the rememberance of some lost bliss that was probably experienced in the womb and can only be reproduced at death".

 

"I like too many things and get all confused and hung up running from one falling star to another till I drop. This is the night, what It does to you. I had nothing to offer anybody but my own confusion".

 

"Mankind will someday realize that we actually are in constant contact with the dead and with the other world, whatever it is".

 

"It was remarkable how Dean could go mad and then suddenly continue with his soul -- which I think is wrapped up in a fast car, a coast to reach, and a woman at the end of the road -- calmly and sanely as though nothing had happened."

 

"...and in Iowa I know by now the children must be crying in the land where they let the children cry, and tonight the stars'll be out, and don't you know that God is Pooh Bear?"

 

 

[theist]

Raga,

That makes sense.

 

jijaji,

 

Closing the eyes and trying to go within is a nice healthy practice for sure.But unfortunately what we experience externaly will be replayed through the mind when we close our eyes.

 

Sure people can learn to become calm and even reduce the chatter of the mind for a while,But I don't see much real movement towards transcendence in such a non-specific meditation.

 

We need direct contact with the Lord.

[raga]

Originally posted by jijaji:

Yea I'll add something...

 

I do not think for a micro-second that Jesus was implying or suggesting anything at all regarding siddha-pranali in those statements you presented above.

A far stretch of the imagination...and nothing else!

I see you thought for at least a microsecond that I made a serious proposition. Huh.

 

No, seriously -- I recall hearing Prithu Das once explain how Jesus displayed asta-sattvika-bhavas, he'd read it in the Bible somewhere, about the different ecstacies of Jesus.

 

[jijaji]

quote:

To summarize, this practice is for those who want to do it. It is not to be advocated as a program of global salvation.

 

 

jijaji:

So whats your recommendation for the rest of the planet? Certainly spirituality is needed more than ever in these times, what do you suggest..?

 

[jijaji]

quote:

No, seriously -- I recall hearing Prithu Das once explain how Jesus displayed asta-sattvika-bhavas, he'd read it in the Bible somewhere, about the different ecstacies of Jesus.

 

jijaji:

yea right..