shankaracharya

[Avinash]

Since we are praising Lord Siva, this portion of a recent lecture by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja seems appropriate:

 

I read the complete lecture and I liked it a lot. I think that we also need to study Siva Puran to know who Sadashiva is.

 

[Avinash]

How did the idea that Sankarcarya was an incarnation of Lord Siva originate?

[shvu]

 

It is found in his biographies. As usual, the disciples projected their Guru as divine to aid them in their marketing efforts. The parents had no child for a long time, prayed to Shiva, Shiva appeared in their dream, was then born to them, etc.

 

The only good thing here is there isn't a big ado made about it. Shankara's teachings would be fully valid, even if he is not considered an avatar. No "scriptural proof" is offered to show him as an avatar and it is based on belief. People are free to accept his teachings without accepting him as an avatar.

 

Cheers

 

[Rati]

gHari: My comments had nothing to do with the relevancy of the content of your posts or the qualifications of your references, just their huge size. You're just being lazy by not condensing those down to a reasonable length, which you surely could do if you wanted to make the effort. This is basically an informal discussion forum, so pretty much anything goes. Nobody is going to stop you from posting whatever you want in whatever volume you see fit. Perhaps we should get a consensus from everyone here to see what they think about this. If I am the only one who thinks this way, then obviously I am outvoted and will not mention it again. Fair is fair.

 

I really do not see myself as an expert on Shankaracarya or advaita vada, so do not have much to contribute, yet I have a keen interest in the discussion and where it may lead, which includes what you have to say as much as anyone else here. I am not telling you not to participate, just to be considerate of others. If you were in a room full of people and talked for an hour without letting anyone else speak, that would simply be rude. The same etiquette applies online, wouldn't you agree? No one likes a bandwidth hog. When kids in our neighborhood start downloading huge video files it slows down the whole network and we can get poor response times even with our fast cable modem connections. So far you have generally been polite and your comments have been insightful and I am sure appreciated by many, at least from what I have seen you posting here over the past several months, so I was not singling you out as the only culprit. My apologies if I have come on too strong about this. I was not trying to make a Supreme Court case out of it.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-10-2002).]

[shvu]

After preaching Advaitha for so long, after converting so many people into Advaitha, why did Sri Sankara take to Vaishnavism?

What is Vaishnavism?

Vaishnava = a worshipper of Vishnu, period.

 

Advaitins worship all Gods as the Supreme Brahman without differentiation and discrimination and so they are technically, Vaishnavas, Shaivas, Shaktas all rolled into one. Shankara himself has composed several works like the Dakshinamurti Stotra, Laxmi Narasimha Stotra, etc and his teachings show he was beyond the level of differentiating between different forms.

 

This being the case, labelling Shankara as a Shaiva or Vaishnava is misleading.

 

Cheers

 

 

[shvu]

 

Those who are interested in knowing about Shankara and his teachings can read,

 

Maadhaviiya Shankara Vijayam [biography]

Upadesha Saahasri or Viveka Chudaamani (His Teachings. The former is the best source)

 

English translations of all three works are available from the RK Math at very low prices.

 

Cheers

 

[shvu]

 

Abhi,

 

Bhakti is understood as whatever activity that pleases Krishna most. The service rendered to the personal form of the God is also termed bhakti.

Bhakti is worship and that includes worshipping both the manifest form and the unmanifest. Among the two, Krishna says worshipping the manifest form is easier, although the result is *the same* in both cases. This does not mean, Krishna chose Bhakti over the other paths. For instance, if you read chapter VII, you will find Krishna saying, the jnAni is his favorite. If I adopt your technique, I can use this chapter to say JnAna Yoga is the way to go.

 

Now you have to atleast accept that there is most perfect and not most perfect. There are undeniably 2 categories.

No, as explained above. All four paths are the same, according to Krishna in the Gita.

 

Vaishnava is not against mukti(except kaivalya mukti), but is insistent on continuing the bhakti (mukti or no mukti)

Bhakti continuese beyond mukti, beyond the brahma bhuta stage. Vaishnava do not consider mukti an end in itself. Bhakti is the means and bhakti is the end and the middle.

That is fine. But I fail to see, what is new here. This is what Madhva taught too. What is the unique factor of Gaudiya Vaishnavism? As I understand, Chaitanya said Mukti is bad and he would like to be born again and again to serve Krishna. This is definitely not the message of Krishna, for Krishna is always talking about attaining Mukti, i.e, freedom from birth and death [Chapter IV, for instance]. And in fact, it was in this context that I had some GVs tell me that Chaitanya was Krishna himself reborn to teach something that he had *left out* in the Gita. Why didn't he teach this then? To this, I got the classic time_and_circumstance answer.

 

Cheers

 

 

[This message has been edited by shvu (edited 04-10-2002).]

[Audarya lila]

Dear Karthik_v,

 

I have read your questions on this thread regarding sex life and the restrictions given by GV acharyas (of the Sarasvati lineage). I have a couple of comments that are related to this part of this discussion and they relate to things said in various posts.

 

First and foremost it should be understood that Iskcon or any other spiritual institution are formed to promote spiritual life and to help spiritual aspirants to live a progressive life that will lead to transcendence of materially conditioned life. So the basic premise is that we are spiritual by nature and that our natural function is in relation to the Supreme spiritual being as an unconditional servant.

 

All of the rules and regulations, both positive and negative - do's and don'ts - are meant to awaken us to our real nature. There are so many quotes in scripture that tell us that a life directed toward sensual pursuits is a misplaced life. Here is one:

 

na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum

durasaya ye bahir artha-maninah

(S. Bhag. 7.5.31)

 

"Those whose minds have been polluted by mundane sense-pleasure, and who hold respect for sense-enjoyers addicted to external mundane pleasures - they cannot know of the glories of Lord Visnu, the exclusive refuge of those desirous of attaining the supreme goal of human life."

 

So if we go a little deeper, which is what we are called to do in order to pursue a truly spiritual life, we will see that what we are actually after - rasam, sundaram - the fullest satisfaction, cannot come from dharma, artha, kama or even moksha. This is the conclusion of the Srimad Bhagavatam. All of these four goals in life amount to a life of seperate interest. The bhakti sastras inform us that the positive side is a life of dedication to Krsna, where our every act and thought is meant for his pleasure.

 

In light of the above, and also understanding that Krsna says that he is that sex life which is governed by regalative principles, it is not unreasonable to conclude that sex which is meant to please Krsna by generating off-spring for the purpose of imparting divine life unto them is truly pleasurable, because it is pleasing to him. As devotees our constant aim is to think of Krsna and perform acts which are pleasing to him.

 

These are some of the philosophical underpinnings to giving an instruction to regulate sex life in pursuit of pleasing Krsna and why Srila Prabhupada has given this type of instruction as a universally applicable instruction.

 

I do not agree with your assessment that the reason for the high rate of failed marriages within Iskcon is a direct result of artificle repression of the sexual urge. You have been married for seven years, surely you are aware that marriage is about much , much more than sex life. I have been married for 15 years and I can tell you that, from my perspective at least, a good and meaningful marriage will result when both parties are fully committed to helping each other reach their highest potential and are willing to make sacrifices in order to make the marriage work. Real love is born of sacrifice and, unless one is prepared to give up selfish intersts for the good of the family and marital relations, marriage is destined to fail. I have seen many marriages fail and I do not know of a single one where it was due to artificial repression of the sensual and mental urges.

 

So the real question for any sadhaka in any act is 'who am I doing this for?'. When the answer is Krsna, then we are making progress. This is the simple test to be placed in all circumastances for all times.

 

The verse from the Bhagavad-Gita that you quoted regarding articial renunciation while still dwelling on the objects of the senses within the mind is a very pertinent sloka to the overall discussion. What is not inferred by this verse is that one should therefore engage his senses without restriction. But a good and honest question is,'how do I get to the ideal from my current position?' Currently I am conditioned and I have mental and sensual urges that are pushing me toward certain types of selfish and binding actions, how will I make tangible progress toward the goal?

 

The first thing is that one has to be sure what the goal is. After that, some honest assessment is of one's current state is necessary. Association of sadhus is a must for anyone who truly wants to transcend the mind and senses. So, if one accepts the goal, then finding proper association is a must. Then sincerity of purpose is key. Krsna says that maya answers to him. If we truly want to serve Krsna he will help us and he will direct maya to help us as well.

 

When Krsna gave Arjuna the instruction to control the mind Arjuna gave the solution to the problem in his subsequent question. He said, 'To control the mind, oh Krsna, seems more difficult than to stop the wind with my arms' (this is paraphrased so don't blast me on not giving a perfect literal translation). So, what is the answer? The answer is that we cannot control the mind and senses on our own effort, but when we call on Krsna as Arjuna did saying,'oh Krsna please help me.' then we will ultimately be successful.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[karthik_v]

Hare Krishna Audarya Lila Prabhuji,

AGTSP! PAMHO!

 

First of all thank you very much for taking the time to answer my question in detail. Your response was very profound. I am entirely in agreement with you that one has to transcend mundane sense gratification to realize Krishna [or Brahman for Advaitins]. But, my only contention is that it has to happen because we have developed such a love for Krishna that we are no more attracted to sex or earning in dollars or in false designations such as ERP consultant. But, I agree with you that we have to perform certain sadhana as given by spiritual masters to head that way.

 

Second, when Krishna talks of dharmic sex in Bhagavad Gita, why should it be interpreted to mean that sex for sensual pleasure between a man and his wife is adharmic? Does Krishna say that only sex for begetting KC children is dharmic? I am not challenging you. I fully understand that sex itself is qualitatively different among various couples. For some visiting prostitute is fine. For some one night stands are ok. I think that only sex that is bonafide is with one's loving wife. There are certainly spiritually advanced couples who have sex only for begetting KC children. But are such couples attracted to even more mundane things like money or job? So, when some speaker insists that a person who is yet to transcend those more mundane things give up sex, is it not artificial?

 

Third, I am also more concerned that some speakers in ISKCON create such an aversion towards sex in the minds of impressionable young people. I think it is dangerous. Not everyone can become transcendental in 5 years. Most just marry, have children, earn money, but chant and read. Now, when those people develop aversion towards sex, it doesn't signify transcendence. It just leads to frustration.

 

Fourth, I am not at all opposed to an acarya advising his spiritually advanced disciples in privacy, who are married couple, to give up sex for sense gratification. But what I find disturbing is across the board advocacy of the same in lectures.

 

Fifth, I would really like to know the shastric basis for rejecting sex for pleasure, even in marriage. Especially since no other acarya of the past has done that. More so, because horoscopes which are based on shastra, match couples on sexual compatibility. Also because Kama shastras are depicted in temple engravings. Of course, I am not suggesting that marraige depends on sex alone. As you have rightly said it depends on real love and care. But, sex is an important part of the marriage. I am sorry for hinting that sex is the reason why many ISKCON marriages failed. That was inaccurate. But, one has to really analyze the cause. I am wondering if over emphasis on negation could be a cause.

 

I find everything in ISKCON/GV enjoyable and dear to me except 2 things - one, denigration of Adi Sankara and Advaita and two, extreme opposition to sex within marriage. Neither is done with shastric basis.

[Guest guest]

My reply,to why criticize,if everything is the will of God.

This is the meaning of enlightenment,to discern between knowledge,and ignorance.

The unenlightened soul acts out,unaware of the control,by a higher power.

The enlightened soul,is also directed by the same higher power,although his activities are taking place in a different realm,even though, they take place here on earth.

This transformation,of matter into spirit,is the result, of the transformation of consciousness.

In the spiritual realm,we are bringing pleasure to the higher power,because we are directly conscious, of our relationship to that higher power.

Thereby,we are not wasting it's time,in ignorance,being led around,for our benefit,on the path,to eventually attain enlightenment.

The spiritual realm,manifested wherever the enlightened soul is,is described as sat-cit ananda,full of knowledge,awareness of eternity,and transcendentally blissfull.

So,how do we distinguish,what to do,what not to do?

The advice of Krishna,Is to free yourself,from the repetetive entanglement,of Karmic delusions.

Then, you will find yourself, in the company,of the siddha,the perfected souls.

They,alone,can guide you, to your ultimate destination,the land of ecstacy,the spiritual realm,where everything is blissfully revealed, your consciousness awakened, is fully alive,consciousness and superconsciousness,mutually benefiting one another.

 

 

 

[jijaji]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

 

I find everything in ISKCON/GV enjoyable and dear to me except 2 things - one, denigration of Adi Sankara and Advaita and two, extreme opposition to sex within marriage. Neither is done with shastric basis.

 

Very well said indeed

 

Sannyassins/brahmacharis who are constantly condemming sex are making their inner goings on known. They are comdemming externally because they are on 'FIRE' internally and cannot contain it.

The sex they condemm and try and put out within themselves is leaking out their very pores (so to speak)in the form of anger and in worse (we have seen).

Celibacy is an attainment not an WAR against one's self.

 

Again I say..All these hyper-masculine celibate repressives are against 'GOD' because 'GOD" is the one who has given me the tendency to live a good life and love the women and children that have been brought to me.

GOD showers man with 'Gifts' Women and children being one of them and vice versa for women.

If we respect women we have relationships with healthy 'Lovemaking' that nutures us both in our Lives. If we disrespect women and have animal sex just to reproduce with no loving emotion and we miss out on 'Love' and the beauty of it and it's norishment of it in our lives.

Yea I am of the school we can have it all..and not be 'uptight'about natural human desires such as being intimate with your wife. Now let me point out that I am NOT for promiscuity..I believe in this day and age man and women should be married or at least consider the partner to be ones significant other. I do not advocate 'Free-Love or Orgies'. I believe in being responsible and loving with your partner.

 

a candle once in a while is nice also!

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 04-10-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Answering shvu,why is Caitanya's teaching not in Gita?

What is the ultimate destination of our lives?

Krishna say's,become my devotee,become my confidant,become my right hand man.

Mahaprabhu fills in the details.

He say's ,"now is the time to be awake, jiv jago,awaken,the spiritual world is here,now!

My transcendental lila is the manifestation of the eternal Vaikuntha,taking place on earth.My devotee enters into the lila of the divine couple,by becomming my confidant,my student,and my friend.This is my special benediction,giving the very highest realization,the highest mukti,moksha,nirvana,direct interaction with the divine play, of the divine, eternal, Supreme Being.

All the demi-god's,all the siddha's,all paths lead to me,The one and only God.

I have many forms,Shiva,Brahma,Indra,Surya,all are partial manifestations of myself, the complete manifestations of myself,are not concerned with the managing of the different aspects of the universe.My complete incarnation,is replete with my Personality,enjoying as enjoyer of my world.

This is my gift,to initiate divine play,to bring my highest aspiration,my highest vision of ecstacy,to you."

 

[theist]

Why do those who hold the view that this world is false, and that ultimately there are no individual souls, bother opening up mathas and preach etc.?

 

I imagine Sankara was considered jivanmukta, so who was he writing his bhasya on the Vedanta sutra for?

 

Was that effort just considered the winding down of his prarabdha-karma or something?

 

Respectfully,

theist

[Audarya lila]

There is no doubt that aversion is the flip side of attraction - just the opposite side of the coin. The healthy method of spiritual attainment is dedication to Krsna in all we do.

 

I have said this before on another thread at another time, but I do really believe that the preaching against family life and family relationships has resulted in very disfunctional individuals who have spent very much time trying to follow the path laid out within Iskcon in general. It leads to real problems not just in terms of unhealthy attitudes toward sex or the opposite gender, but toward human relations in general.

 

The Gaudiya ideal is quite different actaully. We see that family life and attachment to the seemingly mundane are the norm in Vrndavana life. The difference is that Krsna is always in the center of everything there. That is the proper adjustment that needs to be made by progressive spiritualists. How can you do anything but love your wife and children if you see them properly in relation to Krsna? On the other hand, if anyone sees their family relations as their own and they don't see them in relation to Krsna then it becomes a mundane affair. It may look like love, but it is really lust because Krsna is forgotten.

 

Anyway, I agree that there was certainly an unhealthy outcome to the preaching within Iskcon that focused so much energy on painting an ugly picture of sex life and denigrating anyone and everyone who wore any other color than saffron. But from a practical point of view, if we are serious about becoming Krsna conscious, we should strive to see Krsna everywhere and place him as the beneficiary of all of our actions and interactions.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

There is no doubt that aversion is the flip side of attraction - just the opposite side of the coin. The healthy method of spiritual attainment is dedication to Krsna in all we do.

 

I have said this before on another thread at another time, but I do really believe that the preaching against family life and family relationships has resulted in very disfunctional individuals who have spent very much time trying to follow the path laid out within Iskcon in general. It leads to real problems not just in terms of unhealthy attitudes toward sex or the opposite gender, but toward human relations in general.

 

The Gaudiya ideal is quite different actaully. We see that family life and attachment to the seemingly mundane are the norm in Vrndavana life. The difference is that Krsna is always in the center of everything there. That is the proper adjustment that needs to be made by progressive spiritualists. How can you do anything but love your wife and children if you see them properly in relation to Krsna? On the other hand, if anyone sees their family relations as their own and they don't see them in relation to Krsna then it becomes a mundane affair. It may look like love, but it is really lust because Krsna is forgotten.

 

Anyway, I agree that there was certainly an unhealthy outcome to the preaching within Iskcon that focused so much energy on painting an ugly picture of sex life and denigrating anyone and everyone who wore any other color than saffron. But from a practical point of view, if we are serious about becoming Krsna conscious, we should strive to see Krsna everywhere and place him as the beneficiary of all of our actions and interactions.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

Simply beautiful. I really tried to disagree with atleast one word of what you have written, but couldn't. Wonderful prabhuji. The key, as you have nicely stated, is to keep Krishna at the centre, accept our present position and strive in harmony to reach the transcendental state as the eternal servitors of Krishna. Not only ourselves, but also wives and children.

 

[karthik_v]

Shiva:

 

My reply,to why criticize,if everything is the will of God.

This is the meaning of enlightenment,to discern between knowledge,and ignorance.

 

Are you by any means suggesting that Sankara was ignorant that he couldn't discern what real knowledge is? Or could it be that there are many paths to the Supreme as Rk veda says Ekam sad vipra bahuddha vadanti?

 

Theist:

 

Why do those who hold the view that this world is false, and that ultimately there are no individual souls, bother opening up mathas and preach etc.?

I imagine Sankara was considered jivanmukta, so who was he writing his bhasya on the Vedanta sutra for?

 

Was that effort just considered the winding down of his prarabdha-karma or something?

 

What the larva calls the end of life, the master calls a butterfly - Richard Bach.

 

Could it be that Adi Sankara, the master, was presenting the picture of the world that he alone is capable of knowing, unlike the larva [jiva] who has never seen beyond the cocoon [the material manifestation]? Has Adi Sankara ever discounted free will? If not, then his works are addressed to the free will in the jivas. Can't an advaitin turn the argument on us and ask if Krishna is the doer, then why bother with all the efforts at entering His eternal abode? After all it will happen anyway, if Krishna wishes. The answer is, whether you follow Advaita or Vaishnavism, you still exercise your freewill to merge with the Brahman or become the eternal resident of Goloka respectively. The acaryas, be it Adi Sankara or Srila Prabhupad, have written for those who want to deploy their free will for that purpose. Hari bol.

[Rati]

For a true raganuga practitioner, as opposed to a vaidhi marga follower, there is going to be a natural progesssion as sadhana gradually purifies one, and the desire for those baser pleasures will fade over time. Meditating on the divine coupling of Yugala Kisora is the alternative to mundane sexual fantasies, and has the opposite effect. The material sex binds one to this world, whereas the nitya madhurya lila frees one. With that understanding, one does not fall prey to the fallacy that sex in Goloka is equivalent to the sex lives of earthly men and women. This is a radically different approach to the vaidhi marga school taught by Gaudiya Math and ISKCON. Certainly some level of celibacy and all of the other rules and regulations are germane to their approach, but not for true Rupanugas. Granted the lifestyle of a chaste married couple is considered preferable to a promiscuous lifestyle in the dating scene, but that does not mean that the latter does not advance by sadhana, it just might take them longer to get to the goal on account of the more intense samskaras involved.

 

The point about the extremism within monastic circles that are being aggresively touted as mentioned above is a very valid one. Also, one has to wonder what percentage of the householders that have been told by their gurus to only engage in sex once a month actually adhere to that rigorous standard.

 

Finally, the suggestion that once a month sex is going to be adequate for procreation does not take into consideration the limitations of the human reproductive system and the fertility cycles of women. For most women that would mean the reducing the changes of every conceiving to slim to none. So, where would the procreation occur with such a regimen, one must ask.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-10-2002).]

[Audarya lila]

Dear Rati,

 

I will assume that you have had quite a bit of exposure to Iskcon and Guadiya Matha and further more that your involvement with Gaudiya Vaishnavism most likely began due to this exposure. Therefore I think it is safe to assume that you know full well that they are followers of Rupa Goswami and are worshipers of Krsna, not Narayana. They are espousing the Raga marga, not vaidhi. That they don't adhere to the same practices that you do or those of your mentors is obvious, but that does not validate your obvious derogatory statements.

 

The Sarasvata Sampradaya is a nice term and as you said it was coined by my spiritual master so I will certainly be happy to adopt such a nomenclature. The goal of the Sampradaya is not different than the goal of what you have called the traditional Gaudiya lineages. I am sure that you have thought about all of this deeply and your conclusions appear to be different than mine - that's fine with me. For the record though, since were talking about how to gradually become free from karmic influences, followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati place their emphasis in spiritual practice on Kirtan, not smaranam. Kirtan is primary in Kali yuga. The warning to not try to enter prematurely into higher topics is there so that one does not take up an imaginary process colored by material conditioning. At any rate, Krsna is not different from His Name and the emphasis on practice amongst those following the Saraswata line is Nama bhajana.

 

Regarding the once a month sex issue I will offer this. My wife and I went to an educational series given through the Catholic church on fertility and pregnancy. It was some time ago so I don't remember all the details, but it was really quite good. Couples are taught to track a woman's two periods. One is the menstraul cycle, or the well known 'blood' period. The other is referred to as a mucous period. It is only during the mucous period of a woman that pregnancy if possible. This lasts for approximately 5-7 days. The results of studies with couples who monitored their periods and engaged in sex at different times during their 'mucous' period were quite astounding. Depending on the time and the consistency of the mucous the child will be either male or female. The studies showed a 98% rate of proper sex prediction! I can't remember at which stage the female was the outcome and which, the male - but it had to do with the consistency of the mucous which starts out very thin and slimy and progesses toward dryer and stickier.

 

At any rate, if a couple monitors their cycles properly they will know when to engage in sex if their aim is to produce children. The Catholic church is teaching this monitoring method to provide a means of sexual indulgence that will not result in off-spring without the use of profilactic devices. According to the data and the method taught, couples can engage in sexual relations every other day. They must obstain during the 'period' cylces and two days after the end of the mucous cylcle. This amounts to the ability to have sexual relations about 8 times per month.

 

What I found facinating about the whole affair was that the Catholic church teaches that sex should be for the purpose of expressing love between married partners AND for the procreation of children, yet they go to lengths to provide the knowledge necessary to engage in sex such that procreation is an impossibility!

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

 

[Rati]

I would have to see some actual medical evidence to support the claims of the Catholic Church along these lines. They have a notoriously bad record when it comes to the so called rhythm method of birth control, which has resulted in thousands of unwanted pregnancies over the years.

 

I did not think that my remarks about your group following the vaidhi marga had any derogatory tone to them. It is your representatives that have in fact admitted to following that path rather the the raga marga. At any rate I apologize if you somehow were insulted by the statements, as they were not meant as value judgments, just trying to paint an accurate picture, that's all.

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by shvu:

Abhi,

That is fine. But I fail to see, what is new here. This is what Madhva taught too. What is the unique factor of Gaudiya Vaishnavism? As I understand, Chaitanya said Mukti is bad and he would like to be born again and again to serve Krishna. This is definitely not the message of Krishna, for Krishna is always talking about attaining Mukti, i.e, freedom from birth and death [Chapter IV, for instance]. And in fact, it was in this context that I had some GVs tell me that Chaitanya was Krishna himself reborn to teach something that he had *left out* in the Gita. Why didn't he teach this then? To this, I got the classic time_and_circumstance answer.

 

Cheers

 

na janam na dhanam na sundarim

kavitam va jagadeesa kamaye

mama janmanee janmaneesvare

bhavadad bhaktir ahaituki

 

followers - don't want, money - don't want, sundari - don't want, oratory/poetry - don't want. Only want bhakti birth after birth.

 

This is the sublime message which gives bhakti more importance than any other material possessions. Birth means sufferings for the self, even this suffering is insignificant when compared to the spiritual blissed derived in bhakti.

 

For me bhakti is loving service which is exchanged with a person. Unmanifest and bhakti don't go hand in hand. Maybe a nice philosophy, but not practical.

 

What chaitanya gave more than Madhva was madhurya bhakti. What chaitanya gave more than Krishna was, the practical demonstration of complete surrender compared to the theory stated in Geeta (mam ekam sasranam vraja). Nothing *left out*, I ever heard of.

 

Chapter 4. Transcendental Knowledge

TEXT 3

sa evayam maya te 'dya

yogah proktah puratanah

bhakto 'si me sakha ceti

rahasyam hy etad uttamam

 

Since you are my bhakta, ....

 

Ch12.2 yuktatama - most perfect!! There is perfect, more perfect and most perfect. Pls educate me, I can be wrong, if there is such a praise rendered by Krishna to anyother forms of yoga.

 

TEXT 47

yoginam api sarvesam

mad-gatenantar-atmana

sraddhavan bhajate yo mam

sa me yuktatamo matah

 

And of all yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all.

 

For me bhakti rings thru and thru. I can also see what you see in the Geeta, and its also there. Gita is like the milk which can satisfy the heart of all the calves - the jnani calf, the yogi calf, the bhakta calf. Sometimes one calf may push another in their greed to suckle even more, we can tolerate all this pushing in a brotherly spirit.

[gHari]

SEX: Got a mosquito bite? Don't scratch it and soon it will not bother you. Got an itch down there? Don't scratch it and eventually it will not bother you.

 

In both cases, scratching the itch just leads to more and more itching. The itching gets more and more intolerable, until it takes the forefront of the consciousness.

 

Just once a month will I scratch. Just once a month will I have a cigarette. Just once a month will I have a beer. Just once a month will I shoot heroin. It's all roulette; just once a month. The stakes are too high, and the odds are against the player; for innumerable lifetimes the odds have been against us, chewing the chewed over and over and over and over again and again and again and again.

 

Damn mosquitos!

[jijaji]

Veda Maha Vakya ( The four Great Vedic statements)

The identity of Brahman (God) and Atman (Individual Soul) has been expressed in these four maha vakyas. This unity was directly experienced by Vedic Rishis (Seers) and have been explained and experienced by all the Saints and Philosophers. In fact, Saints from other religions also corroborate this principle of Unity.

 

TAT TVAM ASI (THAT THOU ART).

From Samaveda - Chandogyopanisad

 

 

AHAM BRAHMASMI (I AM BRAHMAN).

From Yajurveda - Brhadaranyakopanisad

 

 

AYAM ATMA BRAHMAN (THIS SELF IS BRAHMAN).

From Atharva Veda - Mandukyopanisad

 

 

PRAGNANAM BRAHMAN (BRAHMAN IS CONSCIOUSNESS).

From Rgveda-Aitareyopanisad

 

[Avinash]

How is it decided which veda an upanishad belongs to. Are all the verses in the upanishad also present in the corresponding veda?

[shvu]

 

How is it decided which veda an upanishad belongs to. Are all the verses in the upanishad also present in the corresponding veda?

Yes. Every Veda has 4 parts to it.

 

Samhita

Brahmana

Aranyaka

Upanishad [concluding portion]

 

Cheers

 

 

[Rati]

Quite right, gHari. I guess the real emphasis in the Caitanya school is on the sadhana that will address the itching, rather than trying simply to ignore it and not scratch it. Chanting and lila smarana are like the application of calamine lotion, which has the cooling effect and eventually stops the itching completely. If one can maintain completely celibacy as well while going through that process, that is to one's advantage, no doubt. However, such individuals are extremely rare in the general population.