The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

[Guest guest]

"I don't know what to make of this, except that you think I'm a liar. If that's the case, there's nothing for us to discuss anyway."

 

I don't think that you're a liar. It was just an example, what if I do the same with your sentences, that you do with Bhaktivinod's.

 

So you don't want to answer my questions. You have your right to do it...

[Guest guest]

And what you think of Mathura Naresh prabhu's last post? Drutakarma prabhu gave the solution (actually Prabhupada gave the solution)

[Guest guest]

sorry the post before was sent by me

[Guest guest]

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvat Thakura:

 

“The individual souls serve Shri Krsna as constituents of Shri Radhika. When they forget that they are constituents of Shri Radhika, they forget the nature of their own selves and engage in the abnormal activities of the mundane plane.” [shri Chaitanya’s Teachings, p. 615]

[Guest guest]

 

So you don't want to answer my questions. You have your right to do it...

I don't think he doesn't want to answer your questions but he just doesn't like these arguments much. Stony can be a little full of himself sometimes. When he checks out of a conversation he might not show up anywhere for days or weeks. Maybe you can declare victory since he probably won't be around to object.

[Guruvani]

 

I don't think he doesn't want to answer your questions but he just doesn't like these arguments much. Stony can be a little full of himself sometimes. When he checks out of a conversation he might not show up anywhere for days or weeks. Maybe you can declare victory since he probably won't be around to object.

 

Babhru is packing up all his stuff and getting ready to rent his house out as he and his wife are coming to Alachua, Florida.

His wife will be teaching at the school this fall.

 

so, he is busy.

 

he might not have time to spend on dealing with it right now.

[Guest guest]

 

Babhru is packing up all his stuff and getting ready to rent his house out as he and his wife are coming to Alachua, Florida.

His wife will be teaching at the school this fall.

 

 

wow... a big change trading Hawaii for Alachua? there had to be some serious reasons.

 

good luck with the move Babhruji!

 

finally something tangible on this otherwise intangible topic

[Guruvani]

 

wow... a big change trading Hawaii for Alachua? there had to be some serious reasons.

 

good luck with the move Babhruji!

 

finally something tangible on this otherwise intangible topic

well, his reasons are personal.

I don't know if he is real crazy about leaving Hawaii, but he has his reasons.

 

It's probably not a commentary on how great the Alachua temple is as much as it is a career move for his wife and himself.

 

I hope he likes it here.

I sure like Florida and I have been to Hawaii at least 3 times.

I don't like being on a rock in the middle of the Pacific.

I am a mainlander for sure.

 

But, its not Hawaii here for sure.

 

the Caribbean is just a hop, skip and a jump though.

 

You can even fly to Costa Rica in 4 hours from Florida.

[stonehearted]

 

wow... a big change trading Hawaii for Alachua?

Tell me about it. Actually, trading my own home in the country on the Big Island for being a guest in someone else's studio cottage.

 

 

there had to be some serious reasons.

Yup.

 

 

good luck with the move Babhruji!

Mahalo.

[stonehearted]

 

well, his reasons are personal.

I don't know if he is real crazy about leaving Hawaii, but he has his reasons.

Not crazy about leaving Hawaii, but looking forward to what's coming (beyond Alachua).

 

 

It's probably not a commentary on how great the Alachua temple is as much as it is a career move for his wife and himself.

Sort of a career move, in an odd way. Sorry if I seem cryptic; it's not appropriate to say too much publicly.

 

 

You can even fly to Costa Rica in 4 hours from Florida.

Ah--now we're typin'!

 

Sorry this topic has become about me somehow. I'll let you-all get back to more serious business, and I'll get back to packing and painting.

[theist]

 

wow... a big change trading Hawaii for Alachua? there had to be some serious reasons.

 

good luck with the move Babhruji!

 

finally something tangible on this otherwise intangible topic

Whoa! What could the reason be? A mystery for sure. I think Babhru is too acclimated to hawaii for rock fever to set in. It must be a biggie to trade in those ever present Trade Winds in Hawaii for the humidity of Florida. Not to mention his teaching job as a professor.

 

Mystery for sure. We need Sherlock Holmes, Charlie Chan and Miss Marple all working on this one.

 

It must be a big devotee literary gig to generate this move. I won't press you for the facts bro. but we are naturally curious as heaven. Why? Because we like you that's why, and have a natural interest in what's up with you.

 

Hope all goes smooth.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Sorry this topic has become about me somehow. I'll let you-all get back to more serious business, and I'll get back to packing and painting.

 

Well, the topic is about the "fall from Goloka".

So, Babhru is falling from Hawaii to Florida - not quite exactly the same but maybe similar for hardcore Islanders.

 

Florida is not bad though.............

Best place on the mainland I would think for an Islander like Babhru.

 

I personally prefer the Caribbean to Hawaii because it is only a short flight from the mainland.

 

Of course, you have to get to Costa Rica for the good waves.

[Guruvani]

 

It must be a biggie to trade in those ever present Trade Winds in Hawaii for the humidity of Florida.

The humidity in Hawaii seemed worse for me that what I have experienced here in Florida.

 

The nice thing about Florida is you can get in your car and drive up north a few hours in the winter and play in the snow if you like.

You certainly can't do that in Hawaii unless you climb to the top of Kilauea.

 

In my home town we have the coolest and freshest cold water springs in the USA.

When I get hot, I drive about 2 miles to the springs and cool off like you can never do in Hawaii.

 

Around my home town of High Springs are all the largest and freshest cold water springs in the USA.

 

These springs are like the fountain of youth.

 

Spend an afternoon bathing in these springs and you feel 10 years younger.

 

Florida is the BEST as far as I am concerned.

[stonehearted]

 

Well, the topic is about the "fall from Goloka".

So, Babhru is falling from Hawaii to Florida - not quite exactly the same but maybe similar for hardcore Islanders.

Yeah, it does kind of feel like that.

 

 

Florida is not bad though.............

Best place on the mainland I would think for an Islander like Babhru.

We'll see. Except for the cold water, San Diego was kind of nice, for a big city.

 

 

I personally prefer the Caribbean to Hawaii because it is only a short flight from the mainland.

Warm water good.

 

 

Of course, you have to get to Costa Rica for the good waves.

¡Por supuesto!

[Guruvani]

 

We'll see. Except for the cold water, San Diego was kind of nice, for a big city.

 

Well, Gainesville is a really great college town and I wouldn't trade Gainesville for San Diego ever.

 

Gainesville is really nice.

 

I think Gainesville is the nicest city in the USA.

 

Here in a couple of weeks 35,000 college students are going to arrive in Gainesville.

 

At the homecoming parade for the Gators the Hare Krishna devotees are in the parade and doing their thing which is now part of the tradition in the UF homecoming parade.

 

Hare Krishnas are a fixture in Gainesville and people consider them part of the Gator tradition.

 

Devotees even gather downtown and chant during Gator games.

 

Maybe that is why the Gators are #1.

 

Go Gators!!!!!!!

 

This town is a Hare Krishna town.

 

Why would you want to be anywhere else?

 

Gainesville is TOPS!!!

 

I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

[Guruvani]

A staunch grhasta disciple of Srila Prabhupda is always a welcome commodity at New Raman Reti....................so Babhru................ you are much welcomed to the New Raman Reti community I am sure.

 

Please let me know when you are giving class at the temple and I will be sure to attend.............. though you will not know who I am...

[stonehearted]

I don't know if I'll be giving classes there. I'd guess they have a crew of folks they trust. I'm a bit of an outsider, so I'd have to attend a few classes first, to see what the general tenor is, then decide whether my approach would be accepted. If I do, I'll try to let you know beforehand. And I'd guess I could spot you; I'd just look for the tats.

 

As far as staunch grihasthas, that's not something in short supply there, from what I know. I can think of a few couples that have been married longer than my wife and I have (heck, only 34 years and counting), many of whom have been closer to ISKCON than I have. Anyway, it's all part of the adventure.

[Vigraha]

 

Srila Prabhupada said on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan - “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” Srila Prabhupada says that we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there”.

 

The following is related to the above

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “In the material condition of all living entities, there are three stages of dreaming. When the material world is awake and put in working order, this is a kind of dream, a waking dream. When the living entities go to sleep, they dream again. And when unconscious at the time of annihilation, when this material world is unmanifested, they enter another stage of dreaming. At any stage in the material world, therefore, they are all dreaming. In the spiritual world, however, everything is awake”. Srimad Bhagavatam canto 8 chapter 1 text 9 purport.

 

 

 

 

So how can we be in the material and spiritual world simultaneously?

The answer is the time factor and not the division of the self. The nitya-siddha is referred to as the eternal form or higher self of ones marginal identity while the nitya-baddha consciousness is devoid of form and is referred to as the secondary inferior conscious projection or lower self that is activated by ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts.

 

It only appears that way due to eternal time in relation to divided time. These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing and causeless mercy of the Srila Prabhupada.

Acintyah means inconceivable though the way to understand the apparent existence and paradox of both the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness existing at the same time is that the nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna, while the nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness is eternally conditioned outside the Vaikuntha realm in either a conscious Impersonal inactive dormant condition, where one is not aware of past, present and future or within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the nitya-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels that He provides so one can actively act out their dreams within His mahat-tattva.

 

As already explained, the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay, both are temporary conditions because the nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually. The marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya badda as one moderater missunderstood, no its it not that eveyone is always nitya-siddha bur DREAM they are nitya baddha. The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternal and ones genuin identity. The nitya-baddha consciousness is just part of the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

 

Unfortunately even many ISKCON devotees cannot understand this and choose to not get involved. At times Srila Prabhupada said it was a waste of time to understand and at other times he said it was important to understand. We must remember that ISKCON is only in the very early pioneering stages and many great souls are waiting for the right time to take birth when they feel their Spiritual development is protected and nurtured with eyes open with knowledge and devotion and not imitation. .The ISKCON movement will attract great souls as devotees become genuinely pure, humble and strong without imitation. There is a great Spiritual change coming!

 

Ones awareness of reality is simply based on the concept of time governed by whether one chooses to serve Krishna or reject Krishna. From the nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily point of view, the nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness simply does not exist; it’s not even an illusion to them because such an illusion does not exist as part of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body. This is important to understand.

On the other hand, the nitya-siddha devotee’s are aware of the dark cloud in Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky that is real but only a temporary manifestation and is a place where the marginal living entities non-Krishna conscious dreams go to be embodied and pursued. The paradox here is such dreams have no effect in perpetual time in Goloka-Vrndavana and on return to their genuine bodily svarupa self; it will be as if they never left.

Srila Prabhupada explains ones so called fall down like this and then says that technically one never falls down, they only 'think' they have left Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada also explains that the tendency or possibility is always there with all marginal devotees to forget Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa body they serve <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>.

<font face=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> as because of being marginal energy of the Lord. One can either choose to stay with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> or reject him due to their independent marginal status. Such wishes are the choice all marginal living entities have – that is why they are called marginal.

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen, but in the perpetual reality of the eternal 'presents' of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, no one never falls down.

[Vigraha]

IMPORTANT CORRECTION

As already explained, the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay, both are temporary conditions because the nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually. The marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya badda as one moderater missunderstood, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because eveyone is always nitya-siddha and only DREAM they are nitya baddha. The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternally ones genuin identity perpetually. The dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness on the other hand enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.and is given ethereal and biological bodily fascilities or vessels that make such dreams real but subject to decay or real but temporary. At the same 'time' that one chooses to be absorbed in their non-Krishna nitya-baddha dreams, ones 'svarupa' body is perpetually in Goloka.in the eternal 'present'.

 

[Guruvani]

Vigraha,

Don't post your homemade bogus philosophy as if it is something authoritative.

You can't make up philosophy out of your own hallucinations.

 

If you can't post something from shastra then you just be silent until you learn how to read the books and understand the Gaudiya philosophy from something besides a few letters Srila Prabhupada wrote back in the 60's to some neophytes that were obviously not reading the books or who didn't have access to all the books we have today,

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

 

I notice you can't get your head around a lot of what Srila Prabhupada says. Everything I have posted is clearly backed up by what Srila Prabhupada has told us but only our degree of service to Srila Prabhupada will reveal that to us.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Your next question, "Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul? We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated? You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent. Therefore a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

Srila Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.”

Well, then, since we’re called “eternally conditioned,” eternally illusioned, perhaps we’ve never really fallen at all—we’ve just always been down. That idea, too, Srila Prabhupada rejected.

“Eternally conditioned,” he explained, simply means that we’ve been down so long that when we fell is no longer possible to know.

Srila Prabhupada – “If one understands Krsna, then all the departments of knowledge are part and parcel of that understanding. Krsna is transcendental, for He is always situated in His eternal internal potency. The living entities are manifested and are divided into two classes, eternally conditioned and eternally liberated. Such living entities are innumerable, and they are considered fundamental parts of Krsna. Material energy is manifested into twenty-four divisions. The creation is effected by eternal time, and it is created and dissolved by external energy. This manifestation of the cosmic world repeatedly becomes visible and invisible”. Bhagavad gita as it is Chapter 18. Conclusion--The Perfection of Renunciation

"Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has turned his face away from the Lord from time immemorial". - Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya lila, 20.108.

Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned but factually every marginal living entity has these two fold characteristics. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.

Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-02-27 Los Angeles

"This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant". - Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.5.19, purport.

Srila Prabhupada - "This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered". Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.15.33 purport

 

 

n the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no disharmony between the Lord and the residents. Therefore God's creation in the Vaikuṇṭha world is perfect. There is no cause of fear. The entire kingdom of God is such a completely harmonious unit that there is no possibility of enmity.

 

In this purport Srila Prabhupada admits that the Vaikuntha world is so perfect that there is NO possibility of enmity between the living beings and the Lord.

 

NO POSSIBILITY OF ENMITY!

NONE

ZIP

NADA

[Vigraha]

Guruvani Prabhu, being marginal means there is always choice even in Goloka. There is no forgetfulness or envy in Goloka however, there is always choice, and if we choose to follow our self concocted dreams, then forgetfulness follows as we enter into material existence.

 

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.

Srila Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, ‘Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,’ I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become.” Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?” Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 (Los Angeles

Translator: The question is: did we fall in this material world to find some highest pleasure? His question is did we fall in the material world to experience something, which is higher?

Srila Prabhupada: I do not follow.

Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why should we have left?

Srila Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... Just like somebody is daily eating puris and halava, and he wants to eat also puffed rice. So that tendency is there. That is also a side of enjoyment. ‘I am eating daily this, let me eat this.’ What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So, different taste we desire, that, "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's all." Bhagavada-gita Lecture August 5, 1976 (Paris)

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.12, purport

 

 

From this statement we can understand how anxious the Lord is to get his servitor back into Vaikuṇṭha. This incident, therefore, proves that those who have once entered a Vaikuṇṭha planet can never fall down. The case of Jaya and Vijaya is not a falldown; it is just an accident.

[Vigraha]

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?” Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 (Los Angeles