The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.12 purport

 

 

It is to be assumed that there is no possibility of a misunderstanding between the Lord and the devotees, but when there are discrepancies or disruptions between one devotee and another, one has to suffer the consequences, although that suffering is temporary.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?” Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 (Los Angeles

 

 

There is no consciousness of the material world in Vaikuntha.

They aren't even aware that it exists.

 

This statement of Srila Prabhupada obvioulsy refers to living entities in the marginal position of the Maha-tattva between the material and spiritual world.

 

"this material world is very nice" obviously could only be spoken by a jiva in the mariginal position, not by a devotee within the internal energy of Vaikuntha.

 

The residents of Vaikuntha have no awareness of the material world.

They could not possibly have a thought like the one Srila Prabhupad describes above.

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.26 purport

 

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.27 purport

 

 

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha never return to the material world, but the incident of Jaya and Jaya was a different case. They came to the material world for some time, and then they returned to Vaikuntha.

[Vigraha]

Srila Prabhupada – “In the material condition of all living entities, there are three stages of dreaming. When the material world is awake and put in working order, this is a kind of dream, a waking dream. When the living entities go to sleep, they dream again. And when unconscious at the time of annihilation, when this material world is unmanifested, they enter another stage of dreaming. At any stage in the material world, therefore, they are all dreaming. In the spiritual world, however, everything is awake”. Srimad Bhagavatam canto 8 chapter 1 text 9 purport.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’.April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st=" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Japan</st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”. April 20, 1972, in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place> -

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there”.April 20, 1972, in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place>

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.29 purport

 

nor can one come back from Vaikuntha after once taking birth there.

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.29 purport

 

 

A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down.

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.32 purport

 

 

It is clear from this verse that all the incidents took place at the entrance of Vaikuṇṭhaloka. In other words, the sages were not actually within Vaikuṇṭhaloka, but were at the gate. It could be asked, "How could they return to the material world if they entered Vaikuṇṭhaloka?" But factually they did not enter, and therefore they returned. There are many similar incidents where great yogīs and brāhmaṇas, by dint of their yoga practice, have gone from this material world to Vaikuṇṭhaloka — but they were not meant to stay there.

Jaya and Vijaya were also standing at the gates of Vaikuntha when the incident occured.

Otherwise, had they been inside the gates of Vaikuntha proper this whole episode of their falldown could never have happened.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada - “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’.April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, <st1:place w:st="<st1:City" on="">Japan</st1:place>

 

In this verse of Srimad Bhagavatam Srila Prabhupada says that Jaya and Vijaya FELL from Vaikuntha.

So, the "no one falls from Vaikuntha" tale is not confirmed in the shastra.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.33

 

 

But those two gatekeepers, the best of the demigods, their beauty and luster diminished by the curse of the brāhmaṇas, became morose and fell from Vaikuntha, the abode of the Supreme Lord.

 

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada - “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’.April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, <st1:place w:st="<st1:City" on="">Japan</st1:place>

<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on"></st1:country-region></st1:place>

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.34

 

 

Then, as Jaya and Vijaya fell from the Lord's abode, a great roar of disappointment arose from all the demigods, who were sitting in their splendid airplanes.

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.32 purport

 

 

It is clear from this verse that all the incidents took place at the entrance of Vaikuṇṭhaloka.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.26 purport

 

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.

[krsna]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.32 purport

 

 

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.26 purport

[Guest guest]

Guruvani Prabhu

 

Dont waste your time with these devotees, this is what happens when there is no proper siksa, because even the purports of Srila Prabhupada requiere explanations sometimes.

 

Those who say we only need Srila Prabhupada do not read his books properly where he alsways stresses the association of pure devotees

proper Guru Tattva and sidhanta escapes them.

 

They do not understand that this philosophy is so fast and incredibly deep that constant superior siksa is needed to try to understand the depts of the truths of the Bhagavatam. They walk about with the small torchlight of their minds trying to illuminate themselfes what they are reading.

 

Srila Prabhupada said ...everything is in my books.... so why do they overlook those passages where it says that hearing and serving in the association with PURE DEVOTEES is paramount?

 

Why do they still think that this association can be found in Iskcon? when Srila Goura Govinda Swami was still there yeah...but I do not believe that those who kidnapped the movement and kicked out thousands of faithfull Prabhupada disciples, made themselfes into HDGs are capable of leading the rank and file devotee BTG. They never apologised for their offences and propably never will, how sad.

 

It is just so incredibly stupid to beliefe that Srila Prabhupada rejected all of His Godbrothers seriously, we all say things sometimes we later regret and apologise for. But this constant rejection of Srila Prabhupadas godbrothers of which there have been more the 100 000 or morei think, is totally unintelligent and a huge offence to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja.

 

Srila Prabhupada would have never made an offence of such magnitude, that is completely unthinkable and must be rejected full stop.

 

It is excactly this misunderstanding of Srila Prabhupada, speaking about a couple of His Godbrothers at a particular time and the rejection of his teachings to associate with pure devotees including those which have emerged from Srila Bhaktisiddhantas disciples, not taking siksa from them, preferring instead to either hearing from other sources and not reading Srila Prabhupadas books properly, where all this nonsense is created from.

 

With proper siksa all this would never have happened, we would be a proper worldwide vaisnava family with real self realised vaisnavas traveling everywhere, never being refused at any temple, all understanding proper guru tattva and sidhanta. We would be powerful and strong, instead we appear weak and confused to others.

 

but here you see the result in action someone is presenting his own limited understanding as the ultimate truth, bypassing dutyfully passages from Srila Prabhupadas books presented to him, focusing instead on conversations and letters, which as we all know was preaching according to TAC.

 

Gone is proper research and books are rejected in favour of letters and conversations. Not been able to accept defeat gracefully like vaisnavas would, this type of conversation will never end, because its simply based on ego.

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani Prabhu

 

Dont waste your time with these devotees,

 

I am not trying to convert him (Vigraha) as I am sure he is incorrigible having an agenda as you say based on ego and politics.

 

I debate the issue for the sake of the bystanders, the innocent and the sincerely inquisitive devotees who are following this topic on the forums.

 

Srila Prabhupada created ISKCON to be a place where people could come and associate with devotees and learn about Krishna consciousness.

 

I don't think there is any huge need for outside instruction.

Unfortunately, the ISKCON politicians are still defending some of their philosophical misconceptions that have been around since the very early years of ISKCON.

 

Surely, there are some great thinkers in ISKCON.

Sooner or later the intelligent devotees in ISKCON will start to push aside politics and overcome some of the propaganda that is being disseminated by the poiticians who use philosophical devices to confuse the endless stream of newcomers to the movement.

 

In order to save the future generations from seeking connections outside of ISKCON they need to put their politics aside and present Srila Prabhupada AS HE IS.

 

These "pure devotee" sadhus that are nominated Jagat Guru by a pack of neophyte ISKCON renegades will come and go like shooting stars, but ISKCON has to be the ROCK of Gibraltar for generations to come.

 

In order to do that they have to cleanse ISKCON of politics and allow the more advanced devotees to lead on the basis of shastric knowledge.

 

Get them position seekers out of power in ISKCON!

 

They need to strip spiritual authority away from the managers, because giving spiritual authority to managers is proving to be a very bad combination.

 

There should be a board of brahmans for each temple.

Having some TP or GBC run the show like a dictator is a formula for corruption.

[Guest guest]

You sure are doing a commendable job, Guruvani prabhu, of smashing the bogus theories presented by Vigraha.

 

 

 

I am not trying to convert him (Vigraha) as I am sure he is incorrigible having an agenda as you say based on ego and politics.

 

I debate the issue for the sake of the bystanders, the innocent and the sincerely inquisitive devotees who are following this topic on the forums.

 

Srila Prabhupada created ISKCON to be a place where people could come and associate with devotees and learn about Krishna consciousness.

 

I don't think there is any huge need for outside instruction.

Unfortunately, the ISKCON politicians are still defending some of their philosophical misconceptions that have been around since the very early years of ISKCON.

 

Surely, there are some great thinkers in ISKCON.

Sooner or later the intelligent devotees in ISKCON will start to push aside politics and overcome some of the propaganda that is being disseminated by the poiticians who use philosophical devices to confuse the endless stream of newcomers to the movement.

 

In order to save the future generations from seeking connections outside of ISKCON they need to put their politics aside and present Srila Prabhupada AS HE IS.

 

These "pure devotee" sadhus that are nominated Jagat Guru by a pack of neophyte ISKCON renegades will come and go like shooting stars, but ISKCON has to be the ROCK of Gibraltar for generations to come.

 

In order to do that they have to cleanse ISKCON of politics and allow the more advanced devotees to lead on the basis of shastric knowledge.

 

Get them position seekers out of power in ISKCON!

 

They need to strip spiritual authority away from the managers, because giving spiritual authority to managers is proving to be a very bad combination.

 

There should be a board of brahmans for each temple.

Having some TP or GBC run the show like a dictator is a formula for corruption.

[Guest guest]

Guruvani....I don't think there is any huge need for outside instruction.

 

 

If there wasnt, then why have some in iskcon become so offensive against so called outside instructors?

 

This is how I understand it. Iskcon means The International Society For Krishna Consciousness.

 

Surely everyone with just a little bit of brainsubstance can understand that this means everyone who is a devotee and follows proper vaisnava principles.

 

It is not that Iskcon means the institution Iskcon, everyone who follows and is a genuine devotee ought to be classed automatically as a member of this worldwide family?

 

There is in fact no outside instruction, if for excample Jiva Goswami would begin to preach proper vaisnava principles in the Institution Iskcon would he have to become a GBC member first b4 being admitted? If he was simply to continue the Iskcon so called authorities would with certainty bann him, slander him and may even call him a sahajia.

 

Of course the spiritual master can not be checked, but in Iskcon he can for some strange reason.

 

They have the audacity to reject and slander pure devotees, kick out those who dont agree and make them selfes authorities over and aboove the pure devotee.

 

Guruvani..

Surely, there are some great thinkers in ISKCON.

Sooner or later the intelligent devotees in ISKCON will start to push aside politics and overcome some of the propaganda that is being disseminated by the poiticians who use philosophical devices to confuse the endless stream of newcomers to the movement.

 

Devarsirat....The truth is that excellent minds or great thinkers are not enough. In order to make serious advancement simply a great thinker will not do.

 

The absolute truth has to be spoken by a completely pure devotee a Maha Bhagavata and it has to be heard by a qualified audience. In such an assembly only the truth can be revealed and understood.

 

I ones said to Srila Narayana Maharaja that I was ashamed of my godbrothers making these offences to Him and He simply said..."No harm, one day everyone will understand"

 

So you are right but it has to come from the heart, simple interlectual understanding is not enough. There has to be serious advancement, serious Hari Katha, serious and deep insight,everything full of light and sweetness.

 

We need to become strong, Kali Yuga is advancing quickly and we can not afford to be divided, but like you are saying, shooting stars are shooting stars

lets reject the pretenders and seek out those who have great love in their hearts for Lord Gauranga and obviously have received Krishnas mercy.

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani....I don't think there is any huge need for outside instruction.

 

 

If there wasnt, then why have some in iskcon become so offensive against so called outside instructors?

 

I have seen written instructions of Srila Prabhupada where he instructed that there is no need for outside instruction and I think he was quite serious about that.

 

I recently read some lecture of Narayana Maharaja in Europe and he was complaining that he is hearing that many of his disciples are smoking marijuana and cigarettes, so all is not well in "sadhu sanga" land.

 

ISKCON devotees have each other and that is really all they need along with the books and instructions left by Srila Prabhupada.

 

It's obvious that you are one of the "sadhu sanga" groupies of Narayana Maharaja that proposes that other than him ISKCON cannot have any sadhu sanga.

It's the same old refrain we have been hearing for years and the condition of many of the followers of Narayana Maharaja is testimony to the fact that there is no special magic in loitering around him in the name of sadhu sanga.

 

He is a fine Vaishnava, but there is no special magic in the vapu of the guru.

Following his instructions is the only thing that helps.

Loitering around his body trying to garner some position and esteem is the same old dog and pony show that went on in ISKCON with the big guns who showed quite convincingly that the vapuvadis are nobody special.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada explains ones so called fall down like this and then says that technically one never falls down, they only 'think' they have left Goloka

 

Srila Prabhupada also explains that the tendency or possibility is always there with all marginal devotees to forget Krishna and their eternal nitya siddha svarupa body they serve KRISHNA AS because of being marginal energy of the Lord. One can either choose to stay with Krishna AS THEIR REAL IDENTITY or reject him due to their independent marginal status. Such wishes are the choice ALL marginal living entities have, INCLUDING THE COWHEARD BOYS IN VRNDAVANA – that is why ALL LIVING ENTITIES are called marginal.

 

Srila Prabhupada CLEARELY tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen, but in the perpetual reality of the eternal 'presents' of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, no one never falls down.

[Guest guest]

The brahmana continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world. [srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.53]

 

SRILA PRABHUPADA - This is an explanation of how the living entity falls down into this material world. In the spiritual world there is no duality, nor is there hate. The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself into many. In order to enjoy bliss more and more, the Supreme Lord expands Himself in different categories.... The vibhinnamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world.

 

In the Prema-vivarta it is said:

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga-vancha kare

nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

The natural position of the living entity is to serve the Lord in a transcendental loving attitude. When the living entity wants to become Krsna Himself or imitate Krsna, he falls down into the material world. Since Krsna is the supreme father, His affection for the living entity is eternal. When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His svamsa expansion (Paramatma), keeps company with the living entity. In this way the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead.

 

By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer. That is to say, the living entity takes his position within a material body. [srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54]

 

SRILA PRABHUPADA - The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.

 

SRILA PRABHUPADA - Because the Supreme Personality of Godhead is all-spiritual, He can descend from the spiritual sky without changing His body, and thus He is known as acyuta, or infallible. When a living entity falls down to the material world, however, he has to accept a material body, and therefore, in his material embodiment, he cannot be called acyuta. Because he falls down from his real engagement in the service of the Lord, the living entity gets a material body to suffer or try to enjoy in the miserable material conditions of life. Therefore the fallen living entity is cyuta, whereas the Lord is called acyuta. PURPORT [srimad-Bhagavatam 4.20.37]

 

SRILA PRABHUPADA - From the very beginning of His childhood life Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu introduced the system of observing a fast on the Ekadasi day. In the Bhakti-sandarbha by Srila Jiva Gosvami there is a quotation from the Skanda Purana admonishing that a person who eats grains on Ekadasi becomes a murderer of his mother, father, brother and spiritual master, and even if he is elevated to a Vaikuntha planet, he falls down. [Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 15.9]

 

SRILA PRABHUPADA - Thus Krsna knows the cause of the distressed condition of the conditioned soul. He therefore descends from His original position to instruct the conditioned soul and inform him about his forgetfulness of his relationship with Krsna. Krsna exhibits Himself in His relationships in Vrndavana and at the Battle of Kuruksetra so that people will be attracted to Him and again return home, back to Godhead.... If we revive our original intimate relationship with Krsna, our distressed condition in the material world will be mitigated.

 

When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord's service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world. [srimad-Bhagavatam 5.14.1]

 

These three modes of material nature, being further manifested as matter, knowledge, and activities, put the eternally transcendental living entity under conditions of cause and effect and make him responsible for such activities. [srimad-Bhagavatam 2.5.19]

 

SRILA PRABHUPADA - Because they are between the internal and external potencies, the eternally transcendental living entities are called the marginal potency of the Lord. Factually, the living entities are not meant to be so conditioned by material energy, but due to their being affected by the false sense of lording it over the material energy, they come under the influence of such potency and thus become conditioned by the three modes of material nature. This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entities eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant.

"Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living being after he gives up the changeable gross and subtle material bodies." [srimad-Bhagavatam 2.10.6]

 

SRILA PRABHUPADA -. . ome of the conditioned souls, who follow the transcendental sound in the form of the Vedic literatures and are thus able to go back to Godhead, attain spiritual and original bodies after quitting the conditional gross and subtle bodies. The material conditional bodies develop out of the living entities' forgetfulness of their relationship with Godhead, and during the course of the cosmic manifestation, the conditioned souls are given a chance to revive their original status of life with the help of revealed scriptures, so mercifully compiled by the Lord in His different incarnations.

So the question is, How do we resolve the seeming contradiction in Srila Prabhupada's books concerning the fall or no-fall of the jiva?

This question has been hashed and rehashed for 20 years now, so to arrive at the answer quickly, I would suggest we go to the Crow-and-Tal essay, which Srila Prabhupada dictated to Revatinandana Prabhu in the early seventies precisely to answer this puzzle. Essence of the answer?

"Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport."

And we should also go to the letters Srila Prabhupada wrote in answer to this specific question. Typical answer?

"We are all originally situated on the platform of Krsna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krsna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world or Maya. As soon as one chants the Hare Krsna Mantra with sincerity and without offense . . . his original Krsna consciousness is immediately revived. [by chanting Hare Krsna and performing other devotional activities] we are always remembering Krsna and that is our natural conscious state. So naturally everything about Krsna is originally known to us all and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His Holy Name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krsna in different ways." [letter to Sriman Stan, 1970]

Another one:

Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new. [Letter to: Jagadisa das, 1970]

Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]

And we should go to the face-to-face answers Srila Prabhupada gave in lectures or conversations, addressing the specific question before us. A few examples:

[Atlanta, 1975]

Devotee III: If one is fortunate enough to revive his natural position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling down again? ...

Prabhupada: How your Nixon is dragged down? How your president Nixon is dragged down? He was in the exalted post, and why he was dragged down?

Devotee IV: They dragged him down.

Prabhupada: Yes. He was forced to come down. Why?

Tamal Krsna: He broke the rules.

Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. If you are not perfect, then you will be dragged down. Or if you think imperfectly... The formula is that in the spiritual world everyone is engaged in the service of the Lord. There is no other conception as in this material world everyone is engaged to serve his senses. He likes something, and he is engaged for that purpose. That service is there, but it is service to himself, his senses. But in the spiritual world there is no such thing as giving service to the senses. Simply giving service to the Lord. That is spiritual world. So as soon as you think that "Why shall I give service to Krsna? Why not become independent?" you fall down immediately. So there is potency of thinking like that. Krsna bhuliya jiva bhoga vancha kare, pasate maya tare japatiya dhare. As soon as one forgets the service of the Lord and he wants to become himself Lord, immediately maya will capture. This maya means this material world.

[Washington, D.C., 1976]

Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Prabhupada: Many, there are many reasons.

Devotee (4): I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krsna, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature...Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how maya works somewhat, but if I had known this and had full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how maya works and how I might fall.

Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya and Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu and Hiranyaksa? They were Krsna's doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read the life of Hiranyakasipu and Hiranyaksa?

Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krsna's personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fall down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.

Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse.

Pusta Krsna:

iccha-dvesa samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa

"O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."

Prabhupada: Purport.

Pusta Krsna: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. ..."

Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.

Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect us from that desire?

Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this.

Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.

Vipina: And no love.

Prabhupada: That is force. [indistinct] prema. In Bengal it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me,'" is it love? [laughter]. "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." [laughter] Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then that is love, not by force.

So what do we make of so many of Srila Prabhupada's statements directly saying that souls can and do fall from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha? You have to qualify them: "Oh, that's just in the letters and conversations," or "That's a preaching strategy; Srila Prabhupada didn't really believe it," or "Ok, Srila Prabhupada said both, so let's go outside of Srila Prabhupada's corpus to resolve the issue." I choose to stay within the words of Srila Prabhupada and qualify the "never"s and the "no one"s, as he did. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada's conclusion is...

1. Since Krsna's energies are all-pervading, we can never truly be separated from Krsna, and therefore no one falls from the spiritual world in the literal sense.

2. Occasionally one of Krsna's jiva-soul servitors in the spiritual world, who are by nature in the marginal position, somehow or other develops the desire to enjoy separate from Krsna. This desire causes the soul to be covered by illusion and thus forget Krsna, His abode, and service to Him. This forgetfulness, likened to a dreaming state, is sometimes known as "falling from the spiritual world."

3. By practicing bhakti-yoga we can revive our original Krsna consciousness, regain our original spiritual form (svarupena vyavasthitih), and return to our original position of loving devotional service to Krsna in the spiritual world.

Drutakarma Prabhu has compiled a book of evidence and argument supporting the conclusion that, according to Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas, the conditioned souls were once in a developed, intimate relationship of service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in Vaikuntha. Vigraha's presentation is also correct. If you want Drutakarma Prabhu book in Word(rtf) format, then go to dravida @ mind spring.com .

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada explains ones so called fall down like this and then says that technically one never falls down, they only 'think' they have left Goloka

 

Srila Prabhupada also explains that the tendency or possibility is always there with all marginal devotees to forget Krishna and their eternal nitya siddha svarupa body they serve KRISHNA AS because of being marginal energy of the Lord. One can either choose to stay with Krishna AS THEIR REAL IDENTITY or reject him due to their independent marginal status. Such wishes are the choice ALL marginal living entities have, INCLUDING THE COWHEARD BOYS IN VRNDAVANA – that is why ALL LIVING ENTITIES are called marginal.

 

Srila Prabhupada CLEARELY tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen, but in the perpetual reality of the eternal 'presents' of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, no one never falls down.

lies.

you can't quote Srila Prabhupada on that.

this is all lies and distortions to suit your agenda.

 

cowherd boys, gopis etc. aren't marginal living entities.

only an idiot whould say that the associates of Krishna are marginal energy.

 

your philosophy is that there are zombies walking about Goloka.

you need to get a life and quite making up false siddhanta in your mixed-up head.

 

the quote you gave on the top of your post comes from an allegorical story of the Bhagavatam.

Srila Prabhupada makes it clean in the story that it is allegorical.

 

So, don't take an allegory and try to make it into a literal statement.

[Guruvani]

the philosophy that the pure devotees in Goloka fall into maya and "think" they are in the material world is a madmans's philosophy that no person who knows anything about shastra would ever believe.

 

Maya or illusion is far, far away from Goloka.

There aren't billions and billions of souls in Goloka that are in illusion imagining that they are worms in stool in the material world.

 

Maya has notexistence in the spiritual world.

Forgetfullness of Krishna in Goloka is impossible.

 

The insane philosophy that billions of pure devotees are marginal energy and are forgetting Krishna even though they are in nitya-lila with Krishna is completely bogus countertfeit philosophy that is offensive the the true Gaudiya philosophy.

[Guruvani]

 

Drutakarma Prabhu has compiled a book of evidence and argument supporting the conclusion that, according to Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas, the conditioned souls were once in a developed, intimate relationship of service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in Vaikuntha. Vigraha's presentation is also correct. If you want Drutakarma Prabhu book in Word(rtf) format, then go to dravida @ mind spring.com .

 

 

That is hilarious.

It's good that these guys put this stuff into books.

That means we have documented evidence that these people have butchered the Gaudiya siddhanta and fabricated a false doctrine.

 

They don't even know the difference between marginal energy and internal energy.

These idiots are refering the eternal parshadas of Krishna as marginal energy.

It's just laughable how foolish these clowns can be.

[Guruvani]

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 15.16

 

dvāv imau puruṣau loke

kṣaraś cākṣara eva ca

kṣaraḥ sarvāṇi bhūtāni

kūṭa-stho 'kṣara ucyate

 

SYNONYMS

dvau — two; imau — these; puruṣau — living entities; loke — in the world; kṣaraḥ — fallible; ca — and; akṣaraḥ — infallible; eva — certainly; ca — and; kṣaraḥ — fallible; sarvāṇi — all; bhūtāni — living entities; kūṭa-sthaḥ — in oneness; akṣaraḥ — infallible; ucyate — is said.

 

 

TRANSLATION

There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible, and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible.

 

 

Lord Krishna says that in the spiritual world that "every living entity is infallible".

If they were falling down like flies by the billions to become worms in stool then they would obvioulsy be very fallible.

 

Our if you buy the bogus argument that nobody falls from the spiritual sky that they are just imagining that they have, then that would also make them fallible.

 

Krishna says all the living beings in the spiritual world are infallible.

That means that they don't fall down to the material world.

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “In the material condition of all living entities, there are three stages of dreaming. When the material world is awake and put in working order, this is a kind of dream, a waking dream. When the living entities go to sleep, they dream again. And when unconscious at the time of annihilation, when this material world is unmanifested, they enter another stage of dreaming. At any stage in the material world, therefore, they are all dreaming. In the spiritual world, however, everything is awake”. Srimad Bhagavatam canto 8 chapter 1 text 9 purport.

 

So how can we be in the material and spiritual world simultaneously?

The answer is the time factor and not the division of the self. The nitya-siddha is referred to as the eternal form or higher self of ones marginal identity while the nitya-baddha consciousness is devoid of form and is referred to as the secondary inferior conscious projection or lower self that is activated by ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts.

It only appears that way due to eternal time in relation to divided time. These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing and causeless mercy of the Srila Prabhupada.

Acintyah means inconceivable though the way to understand the apparent existence and paradox of both the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness existing at the same time is that the nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna, while the nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness is eternally conditioned outside the Vaikuntha realm in either a conscious Impersonal inactive dormant condition, where one is not aware of past, present and future or within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the nitya-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels that He provides so one can actively act out their dreams within His mahat-tattva.

As already explained, the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay, both are temporary conditions because the nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually. The marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya badda as one moderator misunderstood, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because eveyone is always nitya-siddha and only DREAM they are nitya-baddha.

 

The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternally ones genuin identity perpetually, YOU AND YOUR GOOD MATES JUST HAVE TO WAKE UP AND REALIZE IT GURVANI. The dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness on the other hand enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.and is given ethereal and biological bodily facilities or vessels that make such dreams real but subject to decay or real but temporary. At the same 'time' that one chooses to be absorbed in their non-Krishna nitya-baddha dreams, ones 'svarupa' body is perpetually in Goloka in the eternal 'present'.

Unfortunately even many ISKCON devotees cannot understand this and choose to not get involved. At times Srila Prabhupada said it was a waste of time to understand and at other times he said it was important to understand. We must remember that ISKCON is only in the very early pioneering stages and many great souls are waiting for the right time to take birth when they feel their Spiritual development is protected and nurtured with eyes open with knowledge and devotion and not imitation. .The ISKCON movement will attract great souls as devotees become genuinely pure, humble and strong without imitation. There is a great Spiritual change coming!

Ones awareness of reality is simply based on the concept of time governed by whether one chooses to serve LORD KRISHNA OR REJECT KRISHNA, that choice is eternally there even in GOLOKA.

 

 

 

The nitya-siddha devotee’s are fully aware of the dark cloud in Spiritual Sky called the mahat-tattva that is real, but only a temporary manifestation and place where the marginal living entities non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) go to be embodied and pursued.

 

 

The paradox here is such dreams have no effect in perpetual time in Goloka-Vrndavana and on return to their genuine bodily svarupa self; it will be as if they never left.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains ones so called fall down like this and then says that technically one never falls down, they only 'think' they have left Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada also explains that the tendency or possibility is always there with all marginal devotees to forget <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and their eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa body they serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as because of being marginal energy of the Lord. One can either choose to stay with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> or reject him due to their independent marginal status. Such wishes are the choice all marginal living entities have – that is why they are called marginal. <FONT color=black>

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=4>Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen, but in the perpetual reality of the eternal 'presents' of Goloka -Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, no one never falls down. This is my last post on this thread FOR FURTHER INFORMATION <FONT face=Verdana><FONT size=5><FONT face="Times New Roman">Guruvani <FONT face="Times New Roman">GO TO

<FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=5><FONT color=blue><FONT color=blue>http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hare-krishna-discussions/443597-secret-book-origins-finally-revealed-those-ready-understand-2.html

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[Guest guest]

Or not.

 

Time exists only on the surface of the earth. Goloka has no time, so when one fell or when one returned are not valid questions in a world without time.

 

I ask, yall, are you ready to understand???

 

mahaksadasa