The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

[Guruvani]

 

Or not.

 

Time exists only on the surface of the earth. Goloka has no time, so when one fell or when one returned are not valid questions in a world without time.

 

I ask, yall, are you ready to understand???

 

mahaksadasa

 

can you please present shastra to back up your statements.

Spouting off without any shastra to support your statements is third-class or worse.

[mahak]

Ya know why the jiva doestn fall from Goloka? Are you ready to understand (im being facetious for those who dont know how facetious I can get at times).

 

Well, here goes. From memory, I remember the discussion. When discussing Bhagavad gita, the part where krsna remembers all and arjuna doesnt, someone asked the question, "When we go back home, will we then remember all our incarnations?". Srila Prabhupada answered, "why would you want to? It is not possible for this situation to arise, because if one has desire to remember such things, he is not back home."

 

Sorry, the only reference is my memory, and you can go ahead and extrapolate all the meaningts you may as far as that goes, but the teaching is that when we are in our full consciousness of swarupa siddhi, there is never a falldown from Vaikuntha, because we were not gone, even while we may have experianced countless births and deaths in material consciousness (forgetfulness). Acintya comes to play here, this idea of a world without the action and subsequent reaction is inconceivable, but such a thing is described adequately, even fully, in the introduction of Bhagavad Gita As It Is. Of all the things, karma and the placement into the forms of the world is not eternal.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

As the presentation. Vigraha's thesis has merit. IMHO

[Guruvani]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.29 purport

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Guruvani]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.26 purport

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Guest guest]

I get it now, your right, actually a devotee never falls down, he only 'thinks' he does. It is that 'thought' that puts ones awareness (not their svarupa body) in the material world.

 

 

Ones awareness of reality is simply based on the concept of time governed by whether one chooses to serve LORD KRISHNA OR REJECT KRISHNA, that choice is eternally there even in GOLOKA.

 

 

The nitya-siddha devotee’s are fully aware of the dark cloud in Spiritual Sky called the mahat-tattva that is real, but only a temporary manifestation and place where the marginal living entities non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) go to be embodied and pursued.

 

The paradox here is such dreams have no effect in perpetual time in Goloka-Vrndavana and on return to their genuine bodily svarupa self; it will be as if they never left.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains ones so called fall down like this and then says that technically one never falls down, they only 'think' they have left Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada also explains that the tendency or possibility is always there with all marginal devotees to forget Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa body they serve Krishna as because of being marginal energy of the Lord. One can either choose to stay with Krishna or reject him due to their independent marginal status. Such wishes are the choice all marginal living entities have – that is why they are called marginal.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen, but in the perpetual reality of the eternal 'presents' of Goloka -Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, no one never falls down

[Guest guest]

I get it now, your right GURUVANI, actually a devotee (NO BODY) never falls down from Vaikuntha, one only 'thinks' they do. It is that 'thought' that puts ones awareness (not their svarupa body) in the material world.

 

 

Ones awareness of reality is simply based on the concept of time governed by whether one chooses to serve LORD KRISHNA OR REJECT KRISHNA, that choice is eternally there even in GOLOKA.

 

 

The nitya-siddha devotee’s are fully aware of the dark cloud in Spiritual Sky called the mahat-tattva that is real, but only a temporary manifestation and place where the marginal living entities non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) go to be embodied and pursued.

 

The paradox here is such dreams have no effect in perpetual time in Goloka-Vrndavana and on return to their genuine bodily svarupa self; it will be as if they never left.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains ones so called fall down like this and then says that technically one never falls down, they only 'think' they have left Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada also explains that the tendency or possibility is always there with all marginal devotees who are eternally with Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in the Vaikuntha's, to forget Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa body they serve Krishna as because of being marginal energy of the Lord. One can either choose to stay with Krishna or reject him due to their independent marginal status. Such wishes are the choice all marginal living entities have – that is why they are called marginal.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen, but in the perpetual reality of the eternal 'presents' of Goloka -Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, no one never falls down

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada explains here that we get the spiritual body at the time of liberation.

Obviously, if we get a spiritual body at the time of liberation then we do not at the moment have a spiritual body.

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 15.7 purport

 

 

In other words, at liberation the living entity gets a spiritual body by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

We get the spiritual body at the time of liberation.

We don't have a spiritual body laying dead in Vaikuntha right now.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen,

 

this idiotic philosophy then says that billions of pure devotees in Vaikuntha are in illusion.

This foolish idea opposes the shastric conclusions that maya is far, far away from the spiritual world and can never affect the living beings in the spiritual world.

 

Maya cannot touch anyone in the spiritual world.

Maya has absolutely no influence in the spiritual world.

 

Your idiotic theory has no basis in shastra.

It's simply your concocted theory based on ignorance.

[Guest guest]

Guruvani you have misunderstood Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, he explanins –

 

“Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered". Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

“You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. ”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

 

“Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

 

“But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

 

“Therefore a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever conditioned” (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967) Srila Prabhupada

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967) Srila Prabhupada:

[Guest guest]

Gopa Gopishvaraya

 

Please answer me the following questions.

 

Where have you heard this idea, that we have never left Goloka?

 

Who is teaching you this?

 

Is this your own understanding?

[Guruvani]

The foolish theory that the illusioned jivas of the material world have spiritual bodies in Vaikuntha but they are in illusion thinking that they are conditioned souls in the material world cannot be proper siddhanta as maya cannot enter the spiritual world.

This verse of the Bhagavatam says clearly that maya cannot enter the spiritual world and put living entities under illusion.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.10

 

pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoḥ

sattvaḿ ca miśraḿ na ca kāla-vikramaḥ

na yatra māyā kim utāpare harer

anuvratā yatra surāsurārcitāḥ

 

 

SYNONYMS

pravartate — prevail; yatra — wherein; rajaḥ tamaḥ — the modes of passion and ignorance; tayoḥ — of both of them; sattvam — the mode of goodness; ca — and; miśram — mixture; na — never; ca — and; kāla — time; vikramaḥ — influence; na — neither; yatra — therein; māyā — illusory, external energy; kim — what; uta — there is; apare — others; hareḥ — of the Personality of Godhead; anuvratāḥ — devotees; yatra — wherein; sura — by the demigods; asura — and the demons; arcitāḥ — worshiped.

 

 

TRANSLATION

In that personal abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail, nor is there any of their influence in goodness. There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy; it cannot enter that region. Without discrimination, both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees.

 

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani you have misunderstood Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, he explanins –

 

“Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered". Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

“You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. ”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

 

“Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

 

“But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

 

“Therefore a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever conditioned” (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967) Srila Prabhupada

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967) Srila Prabhupada:

 

Notice how these letters from the sixties don't conform to what Srila Prabhupada wrote in his books?

 

The letters cannot be taken as final siddhanta as Srila Prabhupada was nurturing neophytes in his letters and many times wrote a simplified version of things that the conditioned minds of the neophytes could grasp easier than the sophisticated siddhanta of the shastra.

 

The books are the shastra we ultimately have to base the philosophy on.

We can't create a new Gaudiya siddhanta from some letters to a few neophyte ISKCON devotees who were grappling with all sorts of limitations in understanding the full-fledged Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

The letters are pablum for neophytes.

 

We have to find the true siddhanta in shastra.

[ksbh]

Guruvani has taken the correct stance. And I have to say that I agree with Guruvani that letters are for specific people and cannot be taken generically.

 

 

Notice how these letters from the sixties don't conform to what Srila Prabhupada wrote in his books?

 

The letters cannot be taken as final siddhanta as Srila Prabhupada was nurturing neophytes in his letters and many times wrote a simplified version of things that the conditioned minds of the neophytes could grasp easier than the sophisticated siddhanta of the shastra.

 

The books are the shastra we ultimately have to base the philosophy on.

We can't create a new Gaudiya siddhanta from some letters to a few neophyte ISKCON devotees who were grappling with all sorts of limitations in understanding the full-fledged Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

The letters are pablum for neophytes.

 

We have to find the true siddhanta in shastra.

[Svarupa]

Stop speculating, who are you to say what Prabhupada was thinking, why can't guruvani and Devarsirat das accept what Sila Prabhupada says, he was only with us for 11 years in his bodily presents and half those years where the 1960s therefore his letters, tapes and books are all as important as each other.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered". Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Please answer me the following questions.

Where have you heard this idea, that we have never left Goloka?

Who is teaching you this?

Is this your own understanding?

 

ANSWER -

Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]

 

Srila Prabhupada: "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse. lecture washington DC Temple 1976

 

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada: "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse. lecture washington DC Temple 1976

 

 

Well, kiddies, Srila Prabhupada also said several times that the temples were Vaikuntha.

So, in the sense that the temples are Vaikuntha or ISKCON is Vaikuntha, it is possible to fall from Vaikuntha because one is not really fit to stay there.

 

But, the liberated souls in Vaikuntha proper can never fall down.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.26 purport

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.

[ksbh]

Then please explain why Srila Prabhupada said in some puports that 'it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha'!

 

 

Stop speculating, who are you to say what Prabhupada was thinking, why can't guruvani and Devarsirat das accept what Sila Prabhupada says, he was only with us for 11 years in his bodily presents and half those years where the 1960s therefore his letters, tapes and books are all as important as each other.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered". Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Please answer me the following questions.

Where have you heard this idea, that we have never left Goloka?

Who is teaching you this?

Is this your own understanding?

 

ANSWER -

Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]

 

Srila Prabhupada: "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse. lecture washington DC Temple 1976

 

[Svarupa]

In the famous crow and tal fruit message which was given by Srila Prabhupada in order to resolve the same controversy that faces us today, Srila Prabhupada makes the following points about the conditioned souls:

 

1. We were originally with Krsna in His lila, or sport.

2. We are not originally from the brahmajyoti.

3. By comparing the situation of the conditioned souls with that of Jaya and Vijaya, Srila Prabhupada indicates that the original relationship was one of active service in a spiritual planet.

4. There is no mention of an origin in the Viraja River.

5. We are not eternally conditioned, in the sense of being always in the material word and never having been with Krsna in the spiritual world.

 

 

 

On the basis of this statement alone, we can confidently answer , we were originally with Krsna. And no, we are not from the brahmajyoti. No, we are not eternally conditioned. No, we are not originally from the Viraja River. No, our relationship with Krsna was not undeveloped. The reason that we can answer the questions so confidently in this way is that the crow and tal fruit message was given by Srila Prabhupada in direct answer to the same controversy that faces us today. In this message, Srila Prabhupada also offers adjustments to other statements that appear contradictory. To the impersonalists it appears that they are from the brahmajyoti because in any particular creation they may indeed be coming down from there. But before that they were with Krsna.

 

It is sometimes said we are eternally conditioned, but that is only because we cannot trace out the exact moment when we departed from Krsna’s lila. By comparing the state of the conditioned soul to a dreaming man, Srila Prabhupada implicitly gives an adjustment of the “no one falls from Vaikuntha” statements. The dreaming man simply thinks he has gone somewhere else. The conditioned soul may think he has left Krsna’s lila, but actually he is still in touch with Krsna. In the same way, we are never out of Vaikuntha, but we are just dreaming that we are somewhere else. In other statements, Srila Prabhupada expresses this more explicitly. As we shall see, this view is also in harmony with the statements of the previous acaryas as well as the Srimad-Bhagavatam, which Jiva Goswami calls the topmost Vedic authority.

 

The following excerpts from the Tokyo lecture are also quite striking in that they provide a way to resolve the statements by Srila Prabhupada that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” To put it briefly, Srila Prabhupada says that we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where we think we have fallen. The Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture (text 2.9.1) given by Srila Prabhupada on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

Karandhara: Translation: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working.”

Prabhupada: So, purport?

Karandhara: “Purport. The question of Maharaja Pariksit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind.”

Prabhupada: It is a very important question. Pariksit Maharaja inquired... Many people inquired that “How the living entity was with Krsna, he became fallen in this material world?” Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that “How the living entity who was with Krsna became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?” So this is the answer. Read the translation.

 

So here Srila Prabhupada is himself directly raising one of the specific questions that confront us today. It is clear that he accepts the premise of the question, namely that we actually were with Krsna in the spiritual world. The question is not whether or not we were with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada is accepting that. The question is why we left Krsna.

 

Karandhara: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead...”

Prabhupada: It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupada: Actually the moon is not moving. It is a maya, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, “I am fallen. I am material.” That is the reason....Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-maya rte rajan. Except atma-maya, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of Krsna. This illusory energy develops when we forget Krsna. That’s all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up Krsna and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore Krsna is giving us.

 

So here Srila Prabhupada offers a way we can understand the few statements that he makes that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation. In our original situation we were with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada says “we wanted to give up Krsna.” There is no mention of originally being in the brahmajyoti, or the Viraja River, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed relationship with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada repeats these points throughout the lecture, as can be seen from the following excerpts.

 

Prabhupada: Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by dream. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity. People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all. So the answer is, when somebody asks you that “When one has become in contact with this material nature?” He has not become in contact. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy. Just like the same example: A man is dreaming; there is no contact with tiger. Actually he has no contact with that. Similarly, actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krsna, so Krsna has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice.’”

 

. . .

 

So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krsna consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with— I am simply Krsna’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krsna conscious. “Oh, Krsna is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. So if you study all these verses very nicely, you get all this knowledge quickly.

 

. . .

 

But the simple process is, as soon as you surrender, that you are not fallen, “It was illusion, I was dreaming, I am Krsna’s” — finished. All gone. “I am Krsna’s. I am Krsna’s eternal servant. These are all nonsense”—he immediately becomes liberated. Just try to understand. Immediately, within a second. Liberation can be attained within a second, provided we abide by the order of Krsna. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated. There is no... Is there any difficulty to understand? Just see how important this verse. It is already there, but you are not reading. Each verse, read every day carefully. Try to assimilate, understand, and you will get more profit, every day, hundred yards forward, hundred yards forward, yes. They are so important verses. How nicely composed by Vyasadeva. In two lines the whole thing is explained. This is called sastra. In two lines. Then read the purport.

 

Notice that Srila Prabhupada is calling this a very important verse, and he is repeating again and again his explanation and also calling it very important for the devotees to understand. He is raising the questions that confront us and answering them point by point. He is also offering a way to understand the statements that “no one falls, They only 'think' or 'dream' they fall.” Statements like these by Srila Prabhupada are addressed directly to the specific questions that confront us. They address these questions in a sustained way. Such direct, detailed, and comprehensive statements are worthy of more emphasis than isolated brief statements pulled from here and there, with no direct sign from Srila Prabhupada that they relate to the exact questions before us. .

[Guruvani]

 

“no one falls, They only 'think' or 'dream' they fall.”

 

Then that directly contradicts the shastric conclusion that maya cannot enter Vaikuntha or affect the pure devotees there.

 

This is obvioulsy pablum preaching for neophytes to nurture them along till they can understand the actual Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Devotees in Vaikuntha don't dream that they are worms in stool in the material world.

 

Such a proposal is against the shastric conclusion and therefore must be considered as a philosophical compromise on the part of Srila Prabhupada in his dealings with neophytes who cannot grasp the actual shastric siddhanta.

 

Either Srila Prabhupada didn't know the siddhanta, preached bogus siddhanta or was compromising the siddhanta for the understanding of his neophyte disciples who were struggling with their mind and senses.

 

Take your pick.

[Svarupa]

Karandhara [reads purport]: The external energy is controlled by the Lord, and the living entities are controlled by the external energy—by the will of the Lord. Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord, being influenced by the external energy of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gita also the same thing is confirmed, that the Lord is present within the heart of every living entity and all consciousness and forgetfulness of the living entity are influenced by the Lord.”

Prabhupada: Yes. Because... Now, people may say that, “Why Krsna within the heart gives one type of consciousness to one, and another type of consciousness...?” Because I wanted. I wanted to forget Krsna, so Krsna is giving consciousness: “All right, you can forget Me in this way.” That is His kindness. Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krsna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on. And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krsna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So Krsna is... Ye yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility.

Karandhara [continues reading purport]: “The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him.”

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: “As a person thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualifications, similarly, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his actual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother, and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the shadow of the moon. Similarly, the crying child of the Lord is given over to the shadow of the material world to lord it over as a karmi and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history when the living entity desired this, but the fact is that as soon as he desired such, he was put under the control of atma-maya by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is ‘mine’ and this is ‘I.’ The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as ‘I’ or falsely thinks that he is the lord and that everything in connection with the material body is ‘mine.’ Thus in dream only the misconception of ‘I and mine’ persist life after life. This continues life after life as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord. In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream. And in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love.”. . .

 

Trivikrama: Srila Prabhupada? You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read ...

Prabhupada: The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am thinking, “Oh, tiger is there.” It is simply dreaming condition.

Trivikrama: But so many Vaisnavas are praying...

Prabhupada: So as soon as you understand that “This is not... I am not in contact with tiger, it is all a dream,” then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand “All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. That is Krsna conscious. If you keep in Krsna consciousness, that “I am eternal servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. . . .

Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen...

Prabhupada: That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of Krsna. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in Krsna’s service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of maya. You see?

 

In this lecture Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krsna’s position, Krsna puts us into a dreaming state. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer. This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is sometimes characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen.

 

We are simply in a dreaming state. Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully consider it. This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada’s purport to the text under consideration. Therein he says: “Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his actual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord.” It is clear that the living entity is first situated in “his actual life.” In that life he is properly using his free will. Then comes “the first sinful will of the living entity.” This is to “become the Lord.” At that point the Lord arranges things so that “the living entity forgets his actual life.” There is no support here for the idea that our original position is as eternally fallen beings in the brahmajyoti, the Viraja River, or the material world. Neither is there any hint that our original position in the spiritual world is any different from our position after going back to Godhead. We were originally with Krsna, but we have forgotten that.

 

In that state of forgetfulness we think we have fallen, but actually we are not fallen. We simply have to wake up, and we will be in our original position.

 

The dream situation and our dream identity will then disappear and we will find ourselves in our natural position, just like a person who is dreaming wakes up on his own bed. Actually, he is always on his own bed, even in the dream. In this way, Srila Prabhupada gives us the way to understand how we can find ourselves separated from Krsna without really “falling” from Vaikuntha. Srila Prabhupada started his lecture by directly referring to the question of how the living entities can fall down from their eternal relationship with Krsna. He gives a thorough answer to this question. We should follow in his footsteps by giving the same answer. Others may try to put together an alternative view, by taking isolated statements from here and there and putting them together in inventive ways, but this cannot compare to the kind of systematic, comprehensive, self-contained statements made here by Srila Prabhupada in direct answer to the specific questions confronting us.

 

 

 

“So actually we are always in the spiritual world”

 

 

In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971, Srila Prabhupada makes the same point he made in the above-quoted Tokyo lecture. No one really falls from Vaikuntha. We are always in the spiritual world. We just think we are somewhere else.

 

 

Kulasekhara: Could you explain a little bit about the position in which we were situated in the spiritual sky before coming to the material world?

Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krsna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called maya. When you forget Krsna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krsna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha.

Devotees: Haribol!

Prabhupada: Because here everyone is Krsna conscious. They haven’t forgotten Krsna. Therefore they are in Vaikuntha. Others may see that “Oh, you are in London. How you are in Vaikuntha?” Just like Krsna, in the Bhagavad-gita is said, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ‘rjuna tisthati. God is situated in everyone’s heart. So everyone’s heart means He is in the heart of the hog also. But if the hog is within the stool that does not mean Krsna is also within the stool. Similarly, the devotees although they are in London or New York, they’re in Vaikuntha. That is to be realized when one is in Krsna consciousness. Yatra tisthanti mad bhakta tatra tisthami narada. Krsna says, “I live there where My devotees are there.” So Krsna can be everywhere where there is devotee. So this material world, spiritual world means when you forget Krsna, that is material. When you are Krsna conscious, that is spiritual. That’s all. You may remain in the same place. Because everything is Krsna’s—isavasyam idam sarvam—so how you can distinguish what is material, what is spiritual? If every, every part of the creation belongs to Krsna, you cannot practically distinguish “This portion is spiritual, this portion is material.” That distinction is due to our forgetfulness. So as soon as you come to Krsna consciousness you will find everything spiritual.

Guest (5): If one realizes the impersonal Brahman, what progress can be made here from this?(?)

Prabhupada: So if you realize impersonal Brahman, there is chance of falling down again to the material conception. Because you are person, you cannot remain in impersonal stage. Therefore to elevate, to be elevated in the impersonal stage means there is chance of falling down again. But if you elevate yourself to the personal conception of the Absolute Truth, there is no falldown. Of course, because we are marginal potency of Krsna, there is possibility of falldown always. But those who are strong in Krsna consciousness, they do not fall. That’s all right

[Guruvani]

can the moderators please ask the poster above to tone down the fonts on his posts.

none of us are blind here.

 

these "in your face posts" are simply the sign of a desperate fanatic.

 

the way he posts he mixes and mingles his own concoctions with quotes from Srila Prabhupada for the purpose of deception.

 

He should be required to stop such practices.

[Svarupa]

 

I get it now, your right GURUVANI, actually a devotee (NO BODY) never falls down from Vaikuntha, one only 'thinks' they do. It is that 'thought' that puts ones awareness (not their svarupa body) in the material world.

 

 

Ones awareness of reality is simply based on the concept of time governed by whether one chooses to serve LORD KRISHNA OR REJECT KRISHNA, that choice is eternally there even in GOLOKA.

 

 

The nitya-siddha devotee’s are fully aware of the dark cloud in Spiritual Sky called the mahat-tattva that is real, but only a temporary manifestation and place where the marginal living entities non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) go to be embodied and pursued.

 

The paradox here is such dreams have no effect in perpetual time in Goloka-Vrndavana and on return to their genuine bodily svarupa self; it will be as if they never left.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains ones so called fall down like this and then says that technically one never falls down, they only 'think' they have left Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada also explains that the tendency or possibility is always there with all marginal devotees who are eternally with Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in the Vaikuntha's, to forget Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa body they serve Krishna as because of being marginal energy of the Lord. One can either choose to stay with Krishna or reject him due to their independent marginal status. Such wishes are the choice all marginal living entities have – that is why they are called marginal.

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen, but in the perpetual reality of the eternal 'presents' of Goloka -Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, no one never falls down

 

perfectly said

[Admin5]

Posts by Vigraha, Svarupa, Guest Bhakta, Gopa Gopishvarraya das, Bhakta dasa (Aussi) all proclaiming the same point of view in this thread, and often posting in the same large and colored fonts, all have the same ip. This will be your only notice. If you use multiple identities to bolster your views, you will be banned. If you want to continue posting here, pick one username and minimize the long copy and pastes with the large fonts.

[Svarupa]

Fair point however there are 5 devotees using this computer but i will make sure they use their own computers in future. My large writing was inspired bt Gurvani's colourful display Others have used this computer on a few occssions and Bhakta dasa is certainly not a fan of big writing anyway.

Anyway this ip address is me Svarupa and no-ne else will use it to to defeat those who believe we come from the Brahmajyoti and never originated from Goloka.

 

Hare Krishna!

[Guruvani]

 

Anyway this ip address is me Svarupa and no-ne else will use it to to defeat those who believe we come from the Brahmajyoti and never originated from Goloka.

 

None of us came from Goloka.

We haven't even been close.

If you want to know where we came from then shastra has the answer.

Let me help you.....

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.36 purport

 

Sankarsana is the original source of all living entities because they are all expansions of His marginal potency. Some of them are conditioned by material nature, whereas others are under the protection of the spiritual nature.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.265

 

sei māyā avalokite śrī-sańkarṣaṇa

puruṣa-rūpe avatīrṇa ha-ilā prathama

 

SYNONYMS

sei māyā — that material energy; avalokite — just to glance over; śrī-sańkarṣaṇa — Sańkarṣaṇa; puruṣa-rūpe — in the original form of Mahā-Viṣṇu; avatīrṇa — incarnated; ha-ilā — became; prathama — at first.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"To glance over that material energy and empower her, Lord Sańkarṣaṇa first incarnates as Lord Mahā-Viṣṇu.