The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

[theist]

That's says it all doesn't it.It is an interesting question but certainly nothing to make a faction over.

 

It appears the best way to understand the reality of the waking state is to wake up.

[Tarun]

To all gopis that fell before,

That traveled down through HaridvAr.

I'm glad they came along, knew not where they belong,

That vrajavAsI mundane corp.

To all gopas that fell down smash

Drank liquor, gambled smokin' hash

I'm glad they fell down wrong, I dedicate this song

To vrajavAsIs fallen before.

To vaikunthAdis fallen for... for what?

[theist]

Originally posted by Tarun:

To all gopis that fell before,

That traveled down through HaridvAr.

I'm glad they came along, knew not where they belong,

That vrajavAsI mundane corp.

To all gopas that fell down smash

Drank liquor, gambled smokin' hash

I'm glad they fell down wrong, I dedicate this song

To vrajavAsIs fallen before.

To vaikunthAdis fallen for... for what?

To enjoy as Center

Some would say.

To dream as Central

Actor in the play.

 

Return is sure, once repent.

To find no need for lament.

Waking from the dream to find,

They had really been there,

All the time.

 

 

[Tarun]

Amerikans in Jail (or Yale) r still in Amerika. So what?

Btw, One female lawyer Kaplan belongs to a law firm which, by using DNA testing, has forced release of 106 prisoners in the last 10 yrs.

About 20 of them were on Death Row ready for the hot seat.

Man-made laws, God-made claws.

[theist]

So another article on this subject has appeared on VNN.Taken from a lecture by Narayan Maharaja.Its entitled Branch-Moon Logic.It is interesting enough.

 

The thing is the arguement that Maya can't exist in Goloka so the jiva can't fall due to never knowing temptation to enjoy illusion seems flawed to me.

 

My question is since I am marginal do I not have inherent in my very being the ability to desire to be the central enjoyer.I don't require the outside agency of the external energy to make that choice.

 

If I choose to try to experience life as the enjoyer then I am placed under the jurisdiction of the illusury energy.This can happen in less then the twinkling of an eye.

 

I have yet to see this point addressed.

 

I would have asked them at VNN but their forum is not up.

 

theist

 

 

[raga]

The following is the famous "tatastha-sakti" (marginal potency) verse from the Caitanya Caritamrta, along with Bhaktivedanta Swami's rendition of the Amrta Pravaha commentary of Bhaktivinoda.

 

* * * * * * * * * * * *

 

<center>jIvera svarUpa haya kRSNera nitya-dAsa

kRSNera taTasthA-zakti bhedAbheda-prakAza

sUryAMza-kiraNa, yaiche agni-jvAlA-caya

svAbhAvika kRSNera tina-prakAra zakti haya</center>

TRANSLATION

"It is the living entity?s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy."

 

PURPORT

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "Who am I?" In answer, the Lord replied, "You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna?s marginal potency. There are two worlds?the spiritual world and the material world?and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire."

 

(Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila, 20.108-109)

 

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-01-2002).]

[raga]

(From the Crow and Tal letter of Bhaktivedanta So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya.

...

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna.

 

From his commentaries:

 

"This incident, therefore, proves that those who have once entered a Vaikuntha planet can never fall down. The case of Jaya and Vijaya is not a falldown; it is just an accident."

 

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.12, purport)

 

Bhaktivedanta presents his conclusion on the case of Jaya and Vijaya in two Bhagavata purports of the 16th chapter:

 

"Thus He plainly says that it was done with His approval. Otherwise, it would have been impossible for inhabitants of Vaikuntha to come back to this material world simply because of a brahminical curse. The Lord especially blesses the so-called culprits: 'All glories unto you.' A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident."

 

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.29, purport)

 

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord."

 

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26, purport)

 

For the sake of comparison, his conclusion on the subject matter in his letter presented in full earlier in this thread:

 

"So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna."

 

We leave it up to the reader to decide for himself which of the two conclusions is more conclusive.

 

[theist]

"The jivas are marginal by nature, because they have manifested from Krsna's marginal potency."

 

Without free will what meaning could there be to the term marginal?

 

Without free will how would the jiva have any differentiation from Krishna at all?

[raga]

Originally posted by theist:

"The jivas are marginal by nature, because they have manifested from Krsna's marginal potency."

 

Without free will what meaning could there be to the term marginal?

 

Without free will how would the jiva have any differentiation from Krishna at all?

Nothing I presented implies that the jivas have no free will. The jivas do have a minute free will.

 

The concept of "tatastha-sakti-prakasa" means those who are manifest from the marginal energy on the borderline between the material and the spiritual world, emanating from the being of Maha Vishnu, creation after creation, in and out.

 

Of course they also have free will to some extent. The point is that the *meaning* of the word "tatastha" is different from "having free will", although minute free will is included in the concept of jiva-tattva.

 

To give an example of the logic applied here, if you say, "Theist means one who is praying", and I say, "Actually theist means one who accepts God", you should not object, "But what then is the meaning of theist if he does not pray?" The theist does pray, but this is not the exact meaning of the term, though praying is also implied when using the term.

[theist]

Originally posted by Jagat:

You are marginal only as long as you are not in Goloka. The individual souls in Goloka are svarupa-sakti, not tatastha.

This is the statement that I am trying to understand.

 

To me it appears for myself to no longer be marginal I would have had to have lost my free will.My free will I consider to be the boundary that marks myself as a distinct entity from all others.

 

What am I not seeing?

 

 

[raga]

Originally posted by theist:

This is the statement that I am trying to understand.

 

To me it appears for myself to no longer be marginal I would have had to have lost my free will.My free will I consider to be the boundary that marks myself as a distinct entity from all others.

 

What am I not seeing?

 

 

The souls of Goloka are not tatastha, because they are out of the marginal region between the material and the spiritual world.

 

But this does not remove their minute free will. In theory anyone there could rebel and jump off the lotus flower, diving into the Causal Ocean with a triple somersault or so, but in reality, due to the overwhelming experience of prema-rasa and the influence of svarupa-sakti, no-one does it.

 

But is this not limiting the free will, all this svarupa-sakti and prema and so? Yes it is, just as in the material world, our frame of decision is limited by maha-maya. All the people in this world, are they free to decide as they like, in an objective, neutral position without being influenced by anyone?

 

The gist of it is that no-one has full independence. We say that Bhagavan is abhijnah svarat (omniscient and independent, SB 1.1.1), but even He simultaneously becomes mugdhata (bewildered) and completely dependent on the love of His consorts.

 

Just see, the spirit souls have their vengeance: Bhagavan has deprived them of complete free will, and vice versa, they have had their revenge, having overpowered the freedom of Bhagavan by their prema.

 

This is called a reality of love.

[theist]

Originally posted by raga:

 

The souls of Goloka are not tatastha, because they are out of the marginal region between the material and the spiritual world.

 

But is this not limiting the free will, all this svarupa-sakti and prema and so? Yes it is, just as in the material world, our frame of decision is limited by maha-maya. All the people in this world, are they free to decide as they like, in an objective, neutral position without being influenced by anyone?

 

So it sounds like you are saying the jiva's are only considered marginal when situated in neutrality.Correct?So if one was to just regain that neutral footing without developing love of Godhead he would again be considered marginal?Hmmmm..?

 

Alot to think about.I'll have to pick it up after getting back from my avocado run.

 

 

 

[gHari]

Originally posted by raga:

[...] We leave it up to the reader to decide for himself which of the two conclusions is more conclusive.

No. We do not leave it up to the reader to decide. We accept the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada: "never mind what is your origin." That is his final conclusion on the subject.

 

We still see the moon on the branch. Jaiva-dharma recommends not trying to understand the movement of the big fish (marginal jiva) from bank to bank until our cit is great enough. When we can see the moon in its true position, then it will be clear.

 

Trivializing Sri Krsna to fit Him into our ego's intellect will continue to keep us far away from Him. The moon will remain on the branch, and our true selves will not be satisfied.

[Jagat]

You are marginal only as long as you are not in Goloka. The individual souls in Goloka are svarupa-sakti, not tatastha.

[theist]

Hmmmm..?I have been thinking that marginal refers to my free will.This is incorrect?

[raga]

Originally posted by theist:

Hmmmm..?I have been thinking that marginal refers to my free will.This is incorrect?

The word tatastha (marginal) is defined by Bhaktivinoda as follows in the 15th chapter of the Jaiva Dharma:

 

Vrajanatha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word tatastha?

Babaji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the shore (tata), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing but land, so where is the shore? The marginal tata is the line of distinction separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then tata is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-sakti is situated at the place where the two meet. The jivas are like the countless atomic particles of light in the rays of the sun. Being situated in the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and the material universe created by maya on the other. Bhagavan's spiritual potency on one side is unlimited, and maya's potency on the other side is also very powerful; and the innumerable subtle (suksma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal by nature, because they have manifested from Krsna's marginal potency.

 

 

[raga]

-- wrong thread --

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-02-2002).]

[gHari]

Raga,

 

I see the purport to the purport as follows. Time - past, present and future which we cherish so in this world are not present in the spiritual world; everything there is experienced in the ever present.

 

From one vantage point, our intellect who thinks in terms of past, present and future, a fall is perceived from there to here and back again, back to Godhead. However, from the other vantage point, which is eternal, in the eternal present, there is no fall, just here and now. Perhaps it is this second observing platform that is described by Srila Prabhupada in this Crow and Tal-Fruit letter.

 

So sometimes the acaryas speak from each vantage point. Perhaps to fully understand this topic one must look at it from both vantage points. Maybe that is why Jaiva Dharma recommends that we wait for a stronger taste of this higher platform so we can truly understand things as they are: [from Jaiva Dharma Chapter 15 - "Deliberations on the Origin of the Soul ]"

Babaji:

 

"The time and space as you feel in the material world are different from the time and space of the chit world. The time of the mundane world is divided into three periods, past, present and future; whereas the time in the chit-world is ever present as undivided. All the events relating to chit are conceived of as present. Whatever we describe is under the jurisdiction of material time and space; so while we say - ' the jivas were created', 'the jivas then were fastened by maya', 'the chit-world was revealed', 'there is no function of maya in the constitution of jivas, but that of chit,- then there is the influence of material time over our statement; the sort of description is inevitable in this fastened condition of ours. For this reason, in all our descriptions relating to jivas and chit, we cannot get rid of the influence of the mundane time, - the past, the present and the future come of themselves into them. While having a conception of the inner meaning of such descriptions, the truly discriminating judges conceive of the application of the ever present time.

 

My darling, you should be very cautious while deliberating over these things and feel the presence of chit, having thrown off the unavoidable detestableness of words. All the Vaishnavas say that the jiva souls have been fastened by maya for the forgetfulness of their own nature, but they all know that though the jivas are eternal entities, they are of two kinds, viz. eternally fastened and eternally free. Such statements are due to the human intelligence being subject to errors and omissions. But a sedate person forms a conception of the transcendental truth by means of chit-samadhi. Our statements are material, whatever we speak about is interspersed with the dirt of words, but you will feel what the truth is. Argumentations have no footing here, for it is vain to apply them to inscrutable truths. I know that you will not be able to realize this truth in a moment. The more you culture about chit affairs the more will be evident the difference of chit from matter. Your body is material, all the functions of the body are material, but in reality, you are not matter, you are atomic chit (sentiment) entity. The more you know about yourself, the more will you feel your essential nature to be superior to the material world. You will not be benefited, if only, I tell you this or you hear it from me. The more you rouse up your chit character by means of the culture of Harinama, the better will you get a conception of the chit world. The speech and the mind, both have their origin relating to matter; they cannot touch the chit affairs by great exertions. The Sruti said: "From whom (Brahman) words recede back with the mind without getting Him." I advise you not to ask the decision about this of any one; feel it within yourself. I only give you the hint."

 

It almost seems that in those last two sentences, the Babaji is giving us the same advice: never mind about your origin. Wait for the chit to reveal that esoteric truth.

 

From here I say it is round. From there he says it is triangular. We are both correct, since it is actually a cone. Both seemingly paradoxical perceptions were required to describe the true nature of the cone.

 

gHari

[Tarun]

All the jIvas fell from Juliet's balcony. Jiva's short for Julietta.

That was their shortfall. As for their longhaul?

Ask the eyewitnesses: Romeo, Romaharzan, RomapAd & the Romans.

They can further elaborate.

[raga]

<center>

 

<font face="Georgia" size=2 color=brown>To fall or not to fall?

To fall from Vaikuntha, or to fall from the Tatastha?

To make an active decision of rejection in excercising our free will, or

to be floating around since time beginningless without input into the issue?

</font>

<font font face="Georgia" color=blue>I came from the right side.

I am a manifestation of the marginal energy.

Prema is eternal and ceaseless by its constitution.

There is no influence of illusion in Vaikuntha.

</font><font font face="Georgia" color=red>That is what I've read in the scriptures. I have not seen it myself.

</font>

<font font face="Georgia" color=orange>If someone claims otherwise, I ask:</font>

<font font face="Georgia" color=violet>How do you explain the hundreds of scriptural statements

which clearly state that no-one falls from Vaikuntha,

and that we are a manifestation of the marginal energy?

</font>

* * * * *

</center><font color=#fefefe>

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-10-2002).]

[theist]

Raga,

 

Cool and colorful post.Did you read gHari's post carefully?

 

I got a lot out of the cone example.

[raga]

Originally posted by theist:

Raga,

 

Cool and colorful post.Did you read gHari's post carefully?

 

I got a lot out of the cone example.

I did, I did. But it is getting late here, I'd better get a bit of rest now and get back to it tomorrow. This was the best I could offer for now. Sorry.

[raga]

The more you rouse up your chit character by means of the culture of Harinama, the better will you get a conception of the chit world.

In fact, I reread the posting, and chose not to go and take rest. "The culture of Harinama" sounds better for now.

 

Tomorrow I'll tell you what He told me.

[raga]

Already it is coming... From Visvanatha's Jewel-Box of Sacred Love:

 

<center><font face="Georgia" color=red>lokadvayAt svajanataH parataH svato vA

prANapriyAd api sumerusamA yadi syuH

klezAs tadapy atibalI sahasA vijitya

premaiva tAn harir ibhAn iva puSTim eti</font><font face="Georgia" color=black>

 

"As a strong lion defeats many elephants

and then becomes further nourished

and strengthened by feeding on them,

so too does sacred love, when exceedingly great,

conquer all obstacles before it,

whether they come from this world or the next,

from enemies or from family members,

from one's own body or the things connected to it,

or even from that dearest one

who is the object of the love itself.

Even if those obstacles are as vast

as the immeasurable Mount Meru,

sacred love will conquer them,

and having conquered,

will become more strong and vital."

</font></center>Thus it was spoken in the Prema-samputika on the nature of sacred love, in its 54th verse. It is also related by Rupa Gosvamin in the blazing sapphire of amorous love, Ujjvala-Nilamani:

 

<center><font face="Georgia" color=red>sarvathA dhvaMsa-rahitaM

saty api dhvaMsa-kAraNe

yad bhAva-bandhanaM yUnoH

sa premA parikIrtitaH

</font><font face="Georgia" color=black>

"Even all the causes for perishing and forsaking do not cause its perishment;

this emotional bondage between the lovers is glorified as sacred love."

</font></center>

 

Hence there is never a cause for the perishment of sacred passion, and no impetus for it to cease for even a blink of an eye; only it increases in abundance evermore. Such are the ways of Vraja: Such are the ways of young lovers, and such is the nature of prema.

[theist]

You still up?Really beautiful raga.