The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

August 6, 2006

BHAGWAAN Swaminarayan ias stated in the VAchnamrut also has said that soul falls from Vaikunth, Brahmpur or Golok or any other divine abodes of Lord Supreme such as Shwetdweep or Badrik Ashram.

He ask name a soul that fell!!! There is none, Jay And Vijay were born for 3 lives thats not to be said that they fell, they and do redeem themselves as they insulted the sains at the doors of Vaikunth. This was all done by the ords wish to show mankind the importance of the saints.

Sudama and Radha were also sent on the earth as Lord Shri Krishna Himslef was to come onto the Earth to redeem souls and protect dharm. I anyone says that Radhaji and Sudama fell, then this can also be said the same for Shri Krishna. Therefore it cannot be said that one can fall. As to fall would ean to become totally distant from the Lord Himself. This is not the case.

JAy Swaminarayan.

August 6, 2006

Fall references must outnumber the no-fall 20 to 1 at least.

I would have to say that statement is FALSE propaganda that in no way can be supported with research and data from the books of Srila Prabhupada.

If you are not willing to make a scientific analysis and present fairly the sum total of fall vs. no-fall references from the books of Srila Prabhupada, then I would say that your hyperbole is based upon personal prejudice and bias and not upon actual facts.

If you cannot support your statements with proper research and data, then I would think it only proper that you refrain from making such unsubstantiated claims that canot be supported with proper research.

Please don't make far-fetched claims without proper supporting evidence.

gHari · August 7, 2006

I did not say 'books'. It's the impression I have received over thirty years of reading Prabhupada daily.

August 7, 2006

I did not say 'books'. It's the impression I have received over thirty years of reading Prabhupada daily.

Well, just try to understand that many of the letters of Srila Prabhupada are like the spoon-feeding of medicine to very ill persons who are not spiritually healthy yet.

Don't confuse letters and the spoon-feeding of small doses of medicine to sick person with the full course meal of Srimad Bhagavatam that is the main course for those who are spiritually healthy enough to digest the hearty meal of siddhanta that Sukadeva Goswami dishes out.

Srila Prabhupada's letters and indeed many of his purports are catering to the neophyte class who are not spiritually educated enough to fully absorb all the highest truths of Vedanta and it's natural commentary Srimad Bhagavatam.

However, if you study the entire course of the Bhaktvedanta canon you will come away from the table with a much broader understanding than might be found in many of the early letters of Srila Prabhupada to struggling neophytes.

Like it or leave it.

That is the obvious conclusion of reading all the books of Srila Prabhupada.

gHari · August 7, 2006

BACK TO BRAHMAJYOTI

Neither has the appeal, the hook that BACK TO GODHEAD has had as a slogan.

On a less frivolous note, this appeared before my eyes last night on the way back to Godhead. It seemed it might be another piece of this paradox puzzle. It is an excerpt from "The Search for Sri Krsna, Reality the Beautiful" by Srila Sridhara Goswami Maharaja:

FOURTH CHAPTER

Origin Of The Soul

Since time immemorial, man has inquired about the origin of the soul. In this brief chapter, Sridhara Maharaja answers this most vital of all questions: "Who am I? Where have I come from?How does the soul first appear in this world? From what stage of spiritual existence does he fall into the material world?" This is a broad question, which requires some background information. There are two classes of souls, jivas, who come into this world. One class comes from the spiritual Vaikuntha planets by the necessity of nitya-lila, the eternal pastimes of Krsna. Another comes by constitutional necessity.

The brahmajyoti, the nondifferentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms. Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication. Krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi bahirmukha. Anadi means that which has no beginning. When we enter the land of exploitation, we come within the factor of time, space, and thought. And when we come to exploit, action and reaction begins in the negative land of loan. Although we strive to become masters, really we become losers.

Goloka and Vaikuntha servitors are also seen to be within the jurisdiction of the brahmanda, the material universe, but that is only a play, lila. They come from that higher plane only to take part in the Lord's pastimes and then return. The fallen souls come from the marginal position within the brahmajyoti, and not from Vaikuntha. The first position of a soul in the material world will be like that of Brahma, the creator. Then his karma may take him to the body of a beast like a tiger, where he is surrounded with a tigerish mentality, or to the body of a tree or creeper, where different impressions may surround him. In this way, one is involved in action and reaction. The case is complex; to analyze the details of the history of a particular atom is unnecessary. We are concerned with the general thing: how the transformation of the material conception springs from pure consciousness.

Electrons of Consciousness

Matter is not independent of spirit. In the brahmajyoti we are equipoised in the marginal potency as an infinite number of pinpoints of spiritual rays, electrons of consciousness. Consciousness means endowed with free will, for without free will no consciousness can be conceived. An atomic pinpoint of consciousness has very meager free will, and by misuse of their free will some jivas have taken their chance in the material world. They refused to submit to the supreme authority; they wanted to dominate. So, with this germinal idea of domination, the jiva enters into the world of exploitation. In the Bhagavad-gita (7.27) it is stated:

iccha-dvesa samutthena

dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti parantapa

"Two principles in a crude form awaken in the jiva: hatred and desire. Then, gradually the soul comes down to mingle with the mundane world." At first, sympathy and apathy develop in a crude form, just as when a sprout springs up with two leaves. And gradually these two things help us to dive deep into this mundane world. Upon retiring from the world of exploitation, the soul may return to his former position in the brahmajyoti as spirit. But, if the soul has gathered the tendency of dedication through his previous devotional activities, he does not stop there; he pierces through the brahmajyoti and goes towards Vaikuntha.

Why has the soul come to the world of exploitation, and not the world of dedication? That should be attributed to his innate nature, which is endowed with free will. It is a free choice. This is substantiated in the Bhagavad-gita (5. 14):

na kartrtvam na karmani

lokasya srjati prabhuh

na karma-phala-samyogam

svabhavas tu pravartate

"The soul is responsible for his entrance into the land of exploitation." The responsibility is with the soul, otherwise, the Lord would be responsible for his distressed condition. But Krsna says that the soul's innate free will is responsible for his entanglement in the material world. The soul is conscious, and consciousness means endowed with freedom. Because the soul is atomic, his free will is imperfect and vulnerable. The result of that free choice is that some are coming into the material world, and some are going to the spiritual world. So, the responsibility is with the individual soul.

The Right to Wrong

Once, an Indian political leader, Syamasundara Cakravarti, asked our spiritual master, Prabhupada, "Why has the Lord granted such freedom to the jiva?" Prabhupada told him, "You are fighting for freedom. Don't you know the value of freedom? Devoid of freedom, the soul is only matter." Freedom offers us the alternative to do right or wrong. Once, Gandhi told the British authorities, "We want freedom." They replied, "You are not fit to have self-government. When you are fit, we shall give it to you." But finally, he told them, "We want the freedom to do wrong." So, freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; freedom has its value independent of right and wrong. Free will is only absolute with the Absolute Truth. Because we are finite, our free will is infinitesimal. The possibility of committing a mistake is there. Our first choice was to dominate, and so, gradually we have entered the world of domination. As a result of this first action, everything else has developed. So, in different ranks, the species have been divided, from the demigods down to the trees and stones. And watery bodies, gaseous bodies, anything that we find here has evolved in that way. The activating principle in any form of embryological development is the soul, and from the soul, everything has evolved.

August 7, 2006

BHAGWAAN Swaminarayan ias stated in the VAchnamrut also has said that soul falls from Vaikunth, Brahmpur or Golok or any other divine abodes of Lord Supreme such as Shwetdweep or Badrik Ashram.

He ask name a soul that fell!!! There is none, Jay And Vijay were born for 3 lives thats not to be said that they fell, they and do redeem themselves as they insulted the sains at the doors of Vaikunth. This was all done by the ords wish to show mankind the importance of the saints.

Sudama and Radha were also sent on the earth as Lord Shri Krishna Himslef was to come onto the Earth to redeem souls and protect dharm. I anyone says that Radhaji and Sudama fell, then this can also be said the same for Shri Krishna. Therefore it cannot be said that one can fall. As to fall would ean to become totally distant from the Lord Himself. This is not the case.

JAy Swaminarayan.

LOL i was meant to type That Lord Swaminarayan has declared that souls canniot fall from the abodes. It has clearky been stated in teh Vachnamrut spoken by Bhagwan Swaminarayan.

Souls do not fall!!! End of story.

gHari · August 7, 2006

Can you quote the referenced verses from the Vachanamritam?

August 7, 2006

BACK TO BRAHMAJYOTI

Neither has the appeal, the hook that BACK TO GODHEAD has had as a slogan.

The Back to Godhead slogan was natural for Srila Prabhupada.

As a nitya-siddha from Goloka, the Back to Godhead slogan was inviting the lost souls of this world to go back to Srila Prabhuapda's home, back to Godhead.

It was not necessarily saying that it was our original home, but that it was Srila Prabhupada's home and he was inviting the fallen souls of this world to go with him Back to Godhead.

The back to Godhead slogan was a clue Srila Prabhupada was giving as to his position as a nitya-siddha from Goloka.

Puru_Das · August 7, 2006

The Back to Godhead slogan was natural for Srila Prabhupada.
As a nitya-siddha from Goloka, the Back to Godhead slogan was inviting the lost souls of this world to go back to Srila Prabhuapda's home, back to Godhead.

It was not necessarily saying that it was our original home, but that it was Srila Prabhupada's home and he was inviting the fallen souls of this world to go with him Back to Godhead.

The back to Godhead slogan was a clue Srila Prabhupada was giving as to his position as a nitya-siddha from Goloka.

In Vaikuntha Not Even he Leaves Fall

by Kundali das

Third Wave: Chapter Seven

Why Did Srila Prabhupada Call His Magazine Back To Godhead?

Yet another argument of the fall-vadis is that since Srila Prabhupada used the term “going back home” and named his magazine Back to Godhead, he surely accepted that the jivas falls from Vaikuntha. We could accept such a logic if it were supported by scripture and all statements to the contrary were satisfactorily reconciled. But this is impossible in light of all the above discussion. Lord Krsna is the ultimate source of everything and everyone. So although we have always been in the material world, when we go to Krsna and join in His lila it is not improper to say that we go back to Godhead.

For example, the American Ambassador to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com ><st1:country-region><st1:place></st1:place></st1:country-region> lives in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = " /><st1:City><st1:place>Delhi</st1:place></st1:City>. Suppose his wife gives birth to a son in <st1:City><st1:place>Delhi</st1:place></st1:City> and after a few years the Ambassador is called back to the States. If the Ambassador’s young son tells his local friends that he is going back home, back to <st1:country-region><st1:place>America</st1:place></st1:country-region>, there is absolutely nothing wrong in his statement, even though he has never before been in <st1:country-region><st1:place>America</st1:place></st1:country-region>. Or a child takes birth in a hospital’s maternity ward and after some days the mother and child go back home. This does not imply that the child was in the home previously. The child is simply claiming his birthright.

The case of the nitya-baddha living entities is similar. They did not fall here from Vaikuntha; they were here anadi, always. Jivas are parts of the Supersoul, who is an expansion of Krsna. He is like an ambassador of Vaikuntha and representative of Krsna. Therefore jivas are part and parcel of Krsna, and are His servants. So it is proper to say that they go back home, back to Krsna or back to Godhead at the time of liberation. This is coherent with the sastra.

Having said all this, however, we find that Srila Prabhupada himself explained the origin of the name for his magazine Back To Godhead in the very first BTG back in 1944, in an article entitled Back To Godhead. Here is the relevant quote

from the original article:

Archbishop of <st1:City><st1:place>Canterbury</st1:place></st1:City>:

"In every quarter of earth men long to be delivered from the curse of War and to find in the world which has regained its peace, respite from the harshness and bitterness of the world they have known till now. But so often they want the <st1:place><ST1:PKingdom of </ST1:P Heaven </ST1:P </st1:place>without its King. The <st1:place><ST1:Pkingdom </ST1:Pof <ST1:PGod</ST1:Place </st1:place>without God. And they cannot have it.

OUR RESOLVE MUST BE BACK TO GOD. We make plans for the future for peace amongst the nation and for civil security at home. That is quite right enough and it would be wrong to neglect it. But all our plans will come to ship-wreck on the rock of human selfishness unless we turn to God. BACK TO GOD, that is the chief need of <st1:country-region><st1:place>England</st1:place></st1:country-region> and of every nation. "

The Archbishop spoke these words in a radio broadcast in 1944. Following this Srila Prabhupada quotes a number of other influential leaders to show that they all agree that the need of the moment is to increase religion in the hearts of men. He quotes one John Young husband saying words to that effect. Then he quotes Dr. Radhakrishnan, “We have to defeat tyranny in the realm of thought and create a will for world peace,” which Prabhupada incorporated as the slogan on the masthead. Prabhupada continues:

"These psychological movements of the leaders of all countries—combined with the orders of my Divine Master Sri Srimad Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada has led me to venture to start a paper under the above name and style “BACK TO GODHEAD,” which implies all the words that we may intend to say in this connection.'"

There can be little doubt that the Archbishop of Canterbury had not even the remote intention of implying that the souls fall down from the nitya-lila of the Lord, and now here he was advocating that we go “back to God.” The real point of the expression was that we need to establish a theistic society here on earth. Secular society needs to become God-centered. People were more religious before, and by the influence of time the populace was turning atheistic. So the Archbishop is appealing for a turn back to God. Srila Prabhupada simply took advantage of what seemed to be emerging as a popular sentiment to launch his preaching periodical. He was an expert preacher according to time, place, and circumstance. No one can deny that. The idea that the expression Back To Godhead is pregnant with meaning stating our ultimate siddhanta stretches the true story a bit thin. But even if one insists that Prabhupada had a deeper meaning than the Archbishop, still, our explanation given in the first part of this chapter will surely suffice.

gHari · August 8, 2006

8n devanägaré

vande ’haà çré-guroù çré-yuta-pada-kamalaà çré-gurün vaiñëaväàç ca

çré-rüpam sägrajätaà saha-gaëa-raghunäthänvitaà taà sa-jévam

sädvaitaà sävadhütaà parijana-sahitaà kåñëa-caitanya-devaà

çré-rädhä-kåñëa-pädän saha-gaëa-lalitä-çré-viçäkhänvitäàç ca

The man having forgotten himself as the son of Godhead, has forsaken his real constitutional nature. He has misidentified himself with everything non-godly and therefore manipulates a material existence conducted by the mind and the six instrumental senses. He is concerned only with his material coverings of gross body and the subtle mind but cannot see either himself or his so-called numerous fellowmen. This is what we mean by Nescience which is darkness. The man having designated himself with the relation of his vehicular body and the finer elements of mind and ego etc., like the motor-car driver who has identified himself wrongly with the motor-car itself, has manufactured a civilization which is self contradictory and self denial.

His so-called rationality having not gone far above the rationality of the lower animals, he laments at the death of his fellowmen or at the loss of his own things which he has never witnessed by real experience. This is what we mean by Nescience which is darkness. He slightly feels only and that after the death of his fellowmen that the body loses something that moves it just like the driver moves the motor-car, but still due to the darkness of Nescience he never concerns himself with the driver of the body but takes care superficially only for the body or the mechanical car.

In the darkness of Nescience he is fully amazed with mechanism of the gross body just like a boy who is amazed with mechanism of the motor-car, but he hardly tries to understand that without a driver any amount of astounding mechanical arrangement of the motor-car or that of the human body, it cannot move either of them even by an inch. This is what we mean by Nescience which is darkness.

The defect of the present day civilization is just like the above. This is actually the civilization of Nescience or illusion and has, therefore, civilization been turned into militarization. Every one is fully concerned with the comforts of the body and everything related with the body and no body is concerned with the Spirit that moves the body although even a boy can realise that the motor-car mechanism has little value if there is no driver of the car. This dangerous ignorance of humanity is a gross Nescience and has created a dangerous civilization in the form of militarization. This militarization which, in softer language, is nationalization, is an external barrier to come to an understanding of human relation. There is no meaning in a fight where the parties do fight only for the matter of different coloured dresses. There must be therefore an understanding of human relation without any consideration of the bodily designation or coloured dresses.

"BACK TO GODHEAD" is a feeble attempt by the undersigned under the direction of His Divine Grace Sri Srimad Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada, the celebrated founder and organiser of the Gaudiya Math activities—just to bring up a real relation of humanity with central relation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

That there is a great and urgent need of a literature like this is keenly felt by the leaders of all countries and the following statements will help much in the procedure.

Some time back a bold statement by the Metropolitan of India in the form of Moral and Spiritual Re-armament movement, was published in the Hindusthan Standard, in which the reverend Bishop declared that "INDIA GUIDED BY GOD CAN LEAD THE WORLD BACK TO SANITY."

The President of the United States of America in a message to the Senate stated that "the underlying strength of the world consists in the moral fibre of citizens. A programme therefore of moral re-armament for the world cannot fail, to lessen the dangers of armed conflict. Such moral re-armament, to be most highly effective, must receive support on a world wide basis."

The Ex-president of the United States of America Mr. Herbert Hoover sent a message in a citizen's meeting in New York which included the following words. "What the world needs today is to return to sanity and moral spiritual ideals. At the present moment, nothing so concerns mankind."

Some 236 members of the British House of Commons jointly affirmed that spiritual principles which are common heritage of all people, are more fundamental than any political or economic issue. They also strongly affirmed that there is urgent need to acknowledge the sovereign authority of God in home and nation to establish that liberty which rests on the Christian responsibility to all one's fellowmen and to build a national life based on usefulness, unity and faith.

Sir Stafford Cripps the Lord Privy Seal of Britain in a meeting of Christians sometimes in the month of September 1942, said that the Kingdom of God would be accomplished through the Divine Power of love and he declared that "the tasks before us are, first so to conduct ourselves as individual Christian that in spite of the difficulties of our surroundings, we may work towards the establishment of the Kingdom of God throughout our country and the world and second, so to influence and change our social-economic and political environments as to encourage both ourselves and others to take to the Christian way of life."

The horrors of the war are pinching every one and all in the world and a statement of Mr. Windel Wilkie after his return from Russia, will tell the story of all other countries in the world. He stated that "Five million Russians have been killed, wounded or missing. At least sixty million Russians are slaves in the Russian territories controlled by Hitler. Food in Russia this winter will be scarce, perhaps worse than scarce. Fuel will be little known this winter in millions of Russian homes. Clothing except for the army and for essential war workers has nearly gone. Many vital medical supplies just do not exist."

What is true for the Russian people is also true for other people, as we Indians are feeling the same scarcity, the same want and the same disgust.

The disgust of the war is well summarized by the Foreign Secretary of Britain Mr. Anthony Eden who said that "this time we have to finish the job properly. We will not tolerate this business every twenty years. When the job is finished we must see that they cannot start it again. That is the will of the nation and the united nation."

The Archbishop of Canterbury in his recent broadcast in London said, "In every quarter of earth men long to be delivered from the curse of War and to find in a world which has regained its peace, respite from the harshness and bitterness of the world they have known till now. But so often they want the Kingdom of Heaven without its King. The kingdom of God without God. And they cannot have it."

"OUR RESOLVE MUST BE BACK TO GOD. We make plans for the future for peace amongst the nation and for civil security at home. That is quite right enough and it would be wrong to neglect it. But all our plans will come to ship-wreck on the rock of human selfishness unless we turn to God. BACK TO GOD, that is the chief need of England and of every nation."

And lately Sir Francis Younghusband while speaking at World Congress of Faiths said that, "that now religion is everywhere attacked brutally, we, look to India the very home of religion for a sign." Sir Francis pleaded that India, by her example might show the world how religion can be the most potent of all uniting forces in the conduct of human affairs."

Sir Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan the great Hindu philosopher addressing a crowded public meeting in Calcutta recently, observed:

"At a time like this when there is poverty, malnutrition of body and mind, when many people do not know what it is to have a cooked meal, or to lie on soft bed, when millions of homes turn into homes of hunger and prisoners of poverty, religious men will have to address themselves to the task of removing them."

"Today the world was noisier, more controversial and violent. There was more hope and more uncertainty, more aspirations and more frustration. And the years that intervened (from the last war) showed the bankruptcy of any spiritual value. The Versailles Treaty, the League of Nations, and the Disarmament Conference failed because they had not the back ground of public opinion to sustain them. This war, when it would be won, would prove to be the breeding ground of other wars if the peace was not saved. It could happen only if powerful nations ceased to take pride and glory in their possessions which were based on labour and tribute of other weaker nations. This perhaps was what Sir Harcourt Butler meant when he said that the principles of Hinduism contained the essential elements for the saving of world civilizations."

In another meeting the same philosopher pointed out, "We have to defeat tyranny in the realm of thought and create a will for world peace. Instruments for training the mind and educating human nature should be used to develop a proper social outlook without which institutional machinery was of little use."

These psychological movements of the leaders of all countries—combined with the orders of my Divine Master Sri Srimad Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada has led me to venture to start a paper under the above name and style "BACK TO GODHEAD" which implies all the words that we may intend to say in this connection.

India has been politically subjugated so to say for the last one thousand years but very few have been able to exploit her spiritual resources up till now which are measured unlimited by the spiritual masters. Politically India may ask all so-called foreigners to quit the shores of India but spiritually she did never ask any body to do so nor she will do so even now. She will rather invite all the so-called foreigners to come and exploit the spiritual resources of India's advancement and this transcendental exploitation will not only enhance the glory of India but will also enrich the glory of the whole world for unity, faith and humanity.

It may not be out of place to mention herein that His Divine Grace Sri Srimad Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswaty Goswami Prabhupada, just before his departure from this mortal world, wrote me a letter from Puri dated the 3rd December, 1936 directing me towards my duty in fulfilling His mission in the world for propagating the religion of Divine Love as propounded by Lord Chaitanya. In course of writing that letter, He wrote the following lines amongst other things.

"I am fully confident that you can explain in English our thoughts and arguments to the people who are not conversant with the languages of other members."

"This will do much good to yourself as well as your audience."

"I have every hope that you can turn yourself a very good English preacher if you serve the mission to inculcate the novel impression to the people in general and philosophers of modern age and religiosity."

And when I was consulting my well wishers and friends who are able to help me in this great adventure, all of them encouraged me in this connection. His Grace Sripad Bhakti Saranga Goswami Moharaj the Preacher-in-charge for the Western countries appointed by His Divine Grace who has recently returned from London preaching work to his headquarter, very kindly sent his blessing from Sri Nityananda Gaudiya Math in his letter dated the 15-3-43 in the following words amongst other things:—

"I know that His Divine Grace used to admire your intelligence and it was His earnest desire that the world outside be benefitted through your writings in English."

Under the circumstances since 1936 up to now, I was simply speculating whether I shall venture this difficult task and that without any means and capacity; but as none has discouraged me including late Prof. Nishikanto Sanyal and Spd. Vasudev Prabhu (now Puri Moharaj), I have now taken courage to take up the work. Late Prof. Sanyal used to encourage me always by publishing my articles in his "Harmonist" and sometime back he wanted to give me the charge of the paper which I could not accept due to personal considerations.

But at the present moment my conscience is dictating me to take up the work although the difficulties are not over for the present situation arising out of War conditions.

I wish that every one who is enlightened and educated of all nationality, may take active interest in this periodical publication for wide circulation as this paper will contain only the transcendental messages of the great savants of India and specially of Lord Chaitanya, the Godhead Incarnate Who descended for the deliverance of all fallen souls in the present age. My duty will be simply to repeat in the "BACK TO GODHEAD" just like an interpreter what I have heard from and what I have been ordered to deliver by my great spiritual master H.D.G. Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada. Nothing will be manufactured by me by my mental concoction. Such words will descend as Sound Transcendental and when they are given proper serving reception by the aural channel, surely they will act like medicine to carry all back to home and "BACK TO GODHEAD."

It is proposed that at least part by part issues of this literature shall be published every year and the subscription is fixed up at Rs. 6/- per annum in India or fifteen shillings per annum abroad. The writers of this paper will be mostly those who have dedicated their lives, resources, intelligence and speeches for the service of the Absolute Personality of Godhead and for the welfare of all entities. The readers will therefore derive the highest amount of benefit by their association if they will simply sacrifice a little time for the service of Godhead as will be directed in this paper from time to time. Surely they will go back to Godhead and the present rotten world will be transformed into the Kingdom of God as they will learn to acknowledge the sovereign authority of God in home and outside.

The subject matters delineated in the pages of "Back to Godhead" may seem to be very dry in the beginning as the messages are from a different sphere altogether but still we have to give attention to the messages if we really mean to cure the disease of Nescience and go "BACK TO GODHEAD." Sugar-candy is never sweet to those who are suffering from the disease of the bile. But still sugar-candy is the medicine for bilious patients. The taste of sugar-candy will gradually be revived if the bilious patient goes on taking sugar-candy regularly for the cure of the disease. We recommend the same process to the readers of "Back to Godhead."

Godhead is One without a second and all living entities are His eternal subordinate transcendental servitors. Realisation of this transcendental relation, will be the attempt of this paper and therefore there is no bar for any one in the world irrespective of colour, creed and nationality, to go back to Godhead.

Abhay Charan De,

Editor and Founder.

Godhead and His Potentialities

In the Padmapuranam the Absolute Truth is compared with the Fire. As the Fire illuminates by diffusion of its rays, although it is situated in one place, so also the Absolute Truth, although situated far beyond the reach of our imperfect vision, is omnipresent in all directions by distribution of His varied energies. These energies or potentialities of the Absolute Truth, are innumerable and immeasurable in quantity and quality but primarily all of them can be grouped into three principal divisions under the following headings, viz.,

(1) Internal Potency or "Chit Potency"

(2) Marginal Potency or "Tatastha Potency"

(3) External Potency or "Maya Potency"

The Absolute Truth is omnipresent everywhere and anywhere represented by all these potencies by a transcendental process which is inconceivable by any mental speculation. As the fire expands its heat as its natural potentiality, so also the Absolute Truth, call Him the Impersonal "Brahman", Localised Aspect of Godhead "Paramatman" or the Personality of Godhead "Bhagwan"—in all such manifestations, He manifests His different potentialities in respect of creation, destruction and maintenance of the universe or the entities within the universe. These are quite natural to Him as the heat is to the fire. The Material Nature as we try to explain by our imperfect mental speculation, is only the External Nature or External Potency of the Absolute Truth whereas the living entities represented by different species of Spirit embodied, which are eighty four lacs of varieties—are but innumerable manifestations of His Marginal Potency as separate individual portions. The actions of the Internal Potency technically called the Chit potency, is almost similar to the activities of the External Potency technically known as "Maya" or illusion. The difference between "Chit" potency and the "Maya Potency" is of quality and quantity. The manifestations of the "Maya" potency by creation of the innumerable universes like one as we can see presently, is said to be one-fourth quantity (portion) of the whole creation. The creation of the "Chit" potency is three-fourth of the whole creation and is the Kingdom of God or technically called "Baikuntha". Herein lies the difference in quantity of "Maya" and "Chit" Potencies. The other difference is one of the quality namely the creation of the "Chit" potency is non-destructible and eternal while the creation of the Maya Potency is destructible and temporary technically called the material Nature.(1) The former is real while the latter is unreal or shadow. The one is light(2) while the latter is darkness. In the darkness one cannot find out what he wants. And in the material nature also one cannot find what he searches out throughout the whole span of his life. From the darkness one however can make out a guess for the light and from the shadow one can make out an idea of the origin. The real is technically known as Transcendence or Noumenon as opposed to the shadow technically called the mundane or phenomenon. But all the same we must not misunderstand them as one and the same as sometimes it is wrongly interpreted by imperfect speculation. Thus lies the qualitative difference between the "Chit" and the "Maya" potencies.

The creations of the marginal potency technically called the "Tatastha" Potency—are the numberless individual living souls trying to lord it over the Material Potency (Maya). The difference between the "Chit" Potency and the "Tatastha" potency is one of quantity only but almost not of quality as opposed to the difference with the "Maya" potency both in quality and in quantity. In other words quantitatively there is much difference between the "Chit" and the "Tatastha" potencies but qualitatively there is almost no difference.(3) Therefore "Tatastha" potency is in all respects superior to the "Maya" potency in relation with the "Chit" Potency. We can see therefore a perpetual endeavour on the part of the living souls to lord it over the material nature or "Maya".(4)

The living entities therefore being one with the Transcendence in quality, are also indestructible and eternal. This fact is elaborately corroborated in the Geeta as follows (Bg. 11) "The soul or the spirit of the living entity is never born nor does it ever die. It was never created in the past nor it is created at present neither it shall be created in the future.(5) That is the soul is transcendental to physical time, represented by Past, Present and the Future. The spirit is therefore unborn, indestructible, eternal, the oldest but always fresh, it is never put to annihilation even after the destruction of the body and the mind."

"Thus one who knows the soul to be non-destructible and eternal—can he ever kill any other soul or does he order to kill others."

"Transmigration of the soul from one body to the other after the destruction of the body, is just like one's changing an old garment for a new one. The non-destructible soul simply changes its material body but is never killed or put to death as we generally misunderstand."

"No weapon can penetrate the soul, no fire can burn it, no water can moisten it and no air can dry it up."

"The soul is impenetrable, incombustible, incapable of being moistened or dried up. It is permanent, constant, immovable and eternal."

"The soul is declared to be incomprehensible, invisible, immeasurable and knowing the soul to be so, one has nothing to lament for, Oh Mighty armed."

The living entity is therefore permanently related with the "Chit" potency as opposed to its temporary relation with the material nature or the "Maya" potency. His relation with the material nature is casual and the cause for such accidental relation is the forgetfulness of his real nature. The living entities are just like sparks of the fire (the fire being compared with The Absolute Truth) or the molecules of the rays of the Sun (the Sun being compared with The Absolute Truth). Qualitatively there is no difference between the fire and its sparks or the Sun and its molecules of rays but quantitatively there is a gulf of difference between them.

The living entity therefore when he forgets his real nature as one with the "Chit" potency and identifies himself as one of the creations of the material nature or the "Maya" potency by his tendency of forgetfulness—is as a matter of consequence, put into the various material afflictions represented by the threefold miseries of material existence. These threefold miseries are:—

(a) Misery pertaining to the material body and the mind such as perceptions of cold and heat and conceptions of distress and happiness.

(b) Misery pertaining to the awards of other living entities such as an attack by the enemies, bites by the animals etc.

A temporary relievement from one of the above threefold miseries is known to us as happiness (?). Negation of distresses is undoubtedly called happiness but all happinesses in the material nature, are adjusted by the "Maya" potency and as such all such happinesses are conditional as much as they again await the onslaught of another distress. In the material nature, all so-called happinesses or the so-called distresses are of temporary nature. As such temporary happinesses cannot satisfy the living entity, the latter's nature being one with the "Chit" potency i.e., non-destructible and permanent.

The tendency of the living entities, is therefore a hankering after eternal happiness and non-destructible existence. The entire activities of living beings are directed towards this end. But as they are under the conditions created by the 'Maya' Potency which is itself destructible and temporary, the desire for a happiness of permanent nature, remains ever unfulfilled in the Material Nature. The exodus of the residents of Calcutta to other places out of fear of being raided by the Japanese bombs, is due to the same tendency of non-destructible existence. But those who are thus going away, do not remember that even after going away from Calcutta saved from the raids of the Japanese bombs, they are unable to protect their bodies as non-destructible at any part of the material universe, when the same bodies will be raided by the bombs of material nature in the forms above threefold miseries.

The Japanese also who are threatening the Calcutta people with ruthless air-raids for increasing their own happiness by possession of lands—do not know that their happiness is also temporary and destructible as they have repeated experience in their own fatherland. The living beings, on the other hand, who are designed to be killed, are by nature eternal, impenetrable, invisible etc. So all those living entities who are threatened to be killed as well as those who are threatening to conquer are all alike in the grip of the "Maya" potency(6) and are therefore in the darkness. The Hindu conception of the Goddess "Kalika Devi" is the symbolised representation of the darker manifestation of the Absolute Truth and in that darkness—destruction, annihilation, death and miseries are the only concomitant factors as we can observe in the grim—Figure of the Goddess "Kalika Devi" in an attitude, always threatening with destruction.

Leaders of materialistic civilization take shelter in this darker Aspect of the Absolute Truth or the Goddess of darkness in order to dissipate the present and temporary distresses without knowing that darkness cannot be removed by an unscientific handling of the darkness itself but it can be removed only by the scientific handling of the Light only. Without light any amount of speculation of the human mind (which is also a creation of the material nature) can never restore the living entities to permanent happiness. In that darkness any method of bringing peace in the world which will stand eternally, be it nonviolent or violent, can bring only temporary relief or distress as we can see all creations of the External Potency. In the darkness non-violence is as much useless as violence while in the light there is no need of violence as much as of non-violence.

Without entering into the details of these, we may take it for granted that fear of being destroyed and killed is an outcome of our association with material nature while in reality we are one with the transcendence. As such we have nothing to fear nor to be destroyed. The body is destructible but the spirit is not. The living entity in the darkness of the Absolute Truth, wrongly identifies with the material nature or "Maya" and concludes himself to be destructible. This causes his fear of being destroyed while actually he is not to be so. Forgetfulness of the Almighty Father is the cause of such misidentification. Intelligent persons therefore should approach to the bonafide spiritual master and accepting him to be nondifferent with the Lord, will devote himself cent per cent in the transcendental service of the Lord. This is what we mean by going "Back To Godhead."

Forgetfulness of the transcendental loving service of the "Chit Potency" of the Personality of Godhead Sree Krishna, is the cause of fall-down of the living entities. Reinstallation of the relation of the "Chit" Potency shall therefore be the ultimate goal of human life. If the living entity therefore somehow or other comes in touch with a bonafide saint and scriptures and thus becomes eager for revival of his lost relation of the "Chit" potency, he can then only be liberated from the clutches of the "Maya" potency and then only all creation of the material nature appears to him as insignificant, temporary and illusion.

At this state of being related with the internal potency of the Absolute Truth, THE LIVING ENTITY DOES NOT HANKER AFTER UNNECESSARY ACCUMULATION OF MATERIAL WEALTH FOR UTILISING THEM IN THE SERVICE OF THE EXTERNAL POTENCY NAMELY "MAYA" FOR DESTRUCTION AND DARKNESS; nor does he lament for any so-called material loss. He looks at that time on all other entities in a spiritual light, as one and the same, covered only in different material encagement of different names under the influence of "Maya." The beginning of such spiritual existence thus ushered forth by the Divine Grace—makes the liberated soul turn towards the transcendental loving service of the Personality of Godhead under the influence of His "Chit" Potency in place of his (soul's) engagement in the temporary service of the "Maya" potency as above-mentioned. This fact is corroborated in the Bhagwat Geeta by Lord Sree Krishna as follows:—

"One who is situated in the Transcendence and is fixed up in his mind, he is always untroubled and does not rejoice by attainment of what is desirable nor does he lament by attaining what is undesirable." (Geeta 5.19.)

"Unsurmountable are the ways by which one can get rid of the 'Maya' potency with her threefold modes, but one who surrenders unto Me (Sree Krishna) he only can get rid of the clutches of 'Maya.'" (Geeta 7.14.)

When the living entity becomes overwhelmed in the engagement of his service of the "Maya" potency, he forgets altogether his divine relation with the Godhead. This horrible state of life is technically called the Asurik i.e., the life of a demon. The name of demon as we often hear in different scriptures, does not mean any horrible figure of extraordinary dimension as the artist generally paint by imagination, but demon is a man who is godless.(7) Description of such godless man is given in detail in the sixteenth chapter of the Bhagwat Geeta.

A godless man does not know what shall he do and what he shall not. He is mostly unbeliever in the teachings of the different scriptures and is generally atheist by nature. In his opinion, religion is superfluous and an unnecessary engagement and as such he attacks religion specially in the most brutal manner. He does not follow any injunction of the scriptures but commits all kinds of sins which he could not have done by following the order of scriptures. He follows his own path and does not accept any authority. In his opinion there is no cause of the creation of the universe except a desire of passion, as a child is born by the passion of a man and a woman. He does not find therefore any design behind the creation of the universe, and thus says that there is no Creator whatsoever. The universe is a product of Nature's fortuitous course and there is no ultimate controller of Nature. He finds every day that matter is unable to take any initiative out of its own will and thus the world is produced by a chance assembly of atoms and so forth. Without any fear of the Authority therefore, he finds it easier to preach his own way of thinking that there is no God at all. He says that every one can manufacture his own religion and thus the process of religiosity so sublime and so divine becomes a subject for his recreation. He preaches that there should be as many religions as there are men on the surface of the globe and there is no necessity of accepting the fact that God is one and religion is one.

In the opinion of a godless man, conception of Godhead is the product of Devil's workshop in the idle brain. God is manufactured by designing brain of the professional class (?) and thus everyone and anyone can manufacture his own God and follow his own way of religiosity for so-called salvation.

Thus concluding the godless man in demonic propensity, engages himself in the service of the "Maya" potency for the destruction of the world. Devoid of spiritual knowledge, he is less intelligent and works out foolish designs out of his foolish brain, in order to create trouble in the world. He considers himself over intelligent and by his over intellectual method he brings disaster on the tranquility of the world peace. He becomes a leader of similar less intelligent persons and leads them also towards destruction like a blind man leads another blind man to get themselves both fallen in the ditches.

The motive power for such unlawful leadership is nothing but an unquenchable thirst for power, desire for domination and unconquerable passion. This is hankering for recognition and drunkenness of power. Moved by such unholy passions he starts all sorts of agitation for the fulfillment of his manufactured ideals of world leadership. And thus proceeding on his onward march, he is met with another demon of the like nature and thus a clash begins between the rival demons. Both of them being godless, the "Maya" potency of Godhead takes them to task, like the demon "Mohisasur" The Goddess engages such demons in fighting with one another until they are individually or collectively vanquished by their own unholy engagements. She engages them just like a school teacher engages naughty boys in the business of pulling each other's ears by each of them. The demons are thus punished in their vain search out for recognition by the "Maya" potency.

The godless man is always overwhelmed with material thoughts of unlimited measure. He not only thinks for his own sense-gratification but for the sense-gratification of his family, society, country, nation and so on and that not only for one decade but also for all the time to come after his death. He does not, however, understand that after his own death he has to change all the details of his calibre. Ignorantly situated, thus he accumulates wealth for the respective welfare works by committing all kinds of sins. For such welfare works he does not hesitate to do harm to others in respect of his own self, family, society, country or nation. Thus he becomes an ill-conceived leader of his family, society or nation in order to satisfy an unquenchable desire for self-gratification without knowing the modes of nature by whom he is engaged in such unholy task up to the destruction of the creation and without caring for the Supreme Authority Who is competent and able to take care of all families, societies, countries or nations without any distinction of caste, creed and colour.(8)

The godless man is bound up with many hopes based on self gratification and anger and for the satisfaction of his such unholy desires, he continues to accumulate worldly riches and powers by all possible means.

The godless man thinks like this. "I have got this thing today and thus my mind is satisfied for the present. I have got so much and in the near future this shall be increased again and again. I have killed my that enemy and my other enemies shall be killed in due course. There is no God (?) and if there is any God at all, He is my order-supplier or it is I. (?) I am therefore Godhead (?) enjoyer, perfect, powerful and happy etc. I am recognised by all men on the earth and who is there who can be my rival in so many respects? I shall therefore hoard up wealth for the benefit of me and my men."

Thus he becomes more and more overwhelmed with the darkness of the Goddess "Kalika Devi" or the "Maya" potency in order to perpetuate his life of darkness until the end of creation.

The godless man also sometimes poses himself as a pseudo religious man. He engages his men and money with pride and vanity in the so-called spiritual activities or religious ceremonies. By such performances he wants to demonstrate the grandeur of his wrongly accumulated wealth in order to be recognised as a great devotee of God (?) not for the sake of Godhead (as he does not believe in the existence of Him) but for the sake of his kinsmen, friends, flatterers dictated by a false sense of respectability and aristocracy. Such godless man however, envies the All-pervading Godhead situated along with him as also with other living entities. He thus makes unlawful animal sacrifices and if any saintly man advises him not to commit such sinful acts, he casts aspersions on such saintly persons propelled by his ill-acquired self sufficiency, power, pride, passion and anger, etc.

Such hellish godless persons are gradually forced to go down and down in the domain of darkness and in the kingdom of demons, so that perpetually they may suffer the pangs of the threefold miseries as above mentioned by the unfailing stroke of the trident in the hands of the "Maya" potency. In other words such people are themselves responsible for gliding down to such a horrible state of life without any hope of deliverance from the clutches of Nescience.

But the All-merciful Personality of Godhead is so kind to us that He has sent forth through His authorised agents scriptures like the Vedas and the Puranas. These transcendental sounds when admitted by aural reception in a submissive mood by any man in the world, he can realise Godhead in the form of Scriptures and Saints and then only he comes to his senses that it is Godhead or His authorised agents only that can deliver him from all miseries and no one else.

Therefore the highest form of philanthropic or altruistic service that a man can render to his fellow brethren—is the propagation of transcendental service of the Personality of Godhead by awakening the spiritual sense of all sleeping men caught hold of by the grip of the "Maya" Potency. The easiest method for reviving such spiritual sense in the heart of all fallen souls, was taught by Lord Chaitanya who took compassion with the fallen souls of the present age, as congregational chanting of the Holy Name of Godhead. He saw that fallen souls of the present age are always engaged in a habit of quarrelling with one another in the fields of sociology, politics, economics, philosophy and religion and as such they have no hope of deliverance by the practice of good works, cultivating spiritual knowledge or by means of performing costly sacrifices. He therefore inaugurated the movement of the transcendental "Samkirtan" or congregational chanting of the Names of Godhead. This process of reviving the sense of spirituality in human society is the most potent and universal form of religion in which everyone can take part irrespective of caste, creed and colour distinctions. It is assured by the Lord that by this method only one will be able to attain to all spiritual perfections. So everyone must help in the propagation of such transcendental movement for the supreme benefit of mankind nay all living entities.

Amongst the innumerable transcendental Names of the Godhead, Lord Chaitanya has prescribed the following sixteen words composed of thirty-two Sanskrit letters,—as the most potent sounds in the "Kali" age. As uttered by the Lord Himself—men may take advantage of repeating the following transcendental sounds every day in an assembly of family members both male and female at least once in every evening or at any time conveniently for his own as well as other's benefit without any grudge. The sixteen words run as follows:—

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

(1) "But above this visible nature there exists another transcendental nature which is unseen but eternal and which does not perish even when all other created things of material nature perish." (Bg. 8.20).

(2) Description of the Mundak Upanishad (3.9.10).

(3) This part is well explained by Lord Chaitanya in His doctrine of "Achinata Vedaveda" i.e., simultaneously one and different.

(4) "Living entities are My parts and parcels and they are eternal. But they are undergoing prisoner's life bound up by the material nature of mind and the six senses." (Bg. 15.7)

(5) It is futile attempt therefore to produce life-substance in the laboratory of scientists.

(6) All works are entirely done under the influence of the modes of Nature (Maya) and the living entity bewildered by false vanity thinks that he is the performer. (Bg. 3.27)

(7) Vishnubhakta vabet daiva asura tad viparjaya.

(8) "Those men who devoutly seek refuge unto Me (Sree Krishna the Godhead) and always think of Me without a pause of a second, I personally carry their necessities of life." (Bg. 9.12)

Theosophy Ends in Vaishnavism

Puru_Das · August 8, 2006

Nice article. thanks gHari. BTW what is the title? Where did you find the cyber file?

gHari · August 8, 2006

Puru, it's the rest of the BTG you quoted. It is in the Vedabase (the Historical section).

Puru_Das · August 8, 2006

Do you have a url for Vedabase (the Historical section). could not find one at:http://vedabase.net/en/

gHari · August 9, 2006

I got it off-line from the Vedabase offering from Bhaktivedanta Archives. http://www.vedabase.com

August 15, 2006

LOL i was meant to type That Lord Swaminarayan has declared that souls canniot fall from the abodes. It has clearky been stated in teh Vachnamrut spoken by Bhagwan Swaminarayan.

Souls do not fall!!! End of story.

Yes GAdhpur Pratham Vrachnamrut 14

Beautiful VAchnamrut Please do read it.

kbdas · April 26, 2007

OMG!!! ROTFL!!!!

wow, is this still an issue despite what the great, stalwart archaryas of our line have to say about it?

seems to me another example of trying to make gaudiya vaishnavism conform to judeo-christian belief systems.

April 26, 2007

On the third day of the first fortnight of the month of Bhadrapada of Samvat 1877. Shri Sahajanandji Maharaj (Swaminarayan Bhagwan) was seated on a cot in the verandah near the hall in the Durbar of Shri Jiva Khachar at Sarangpur. He had covered his person with a white cotton showl and about his neck a folded side cloth with black side ends. His ears were adorned with the curls of yellow flowers. Nosegays of yellow flowers were hanging from his white turban. He was garlanded with large garlands of yellow flowers hung up to his navel. He was seated facing west. Saints and the devotees from the various regions were assembled before him.

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Then, at that time, Swayamprakashanand Swami asked, “Lord Shri Krisna has said in the Geeta2 that a devotee who has been transmigrated to the Vaikunth Lok - the divine abode of God - does not incarnate here on earth and therefore never fall. Then due to what faults does one fall from that divine realm?” Then in reply, Shriji Maharaj asked, “Please let me know, who has fallen from this divine realm?” Whereupon Swayamprakashanand Swami said, “Jay3 and Vijay3, the personal attendants of God had to revert here from Vaikunthloka4. Radhikaji5 and Shridama5 fell from Goloka.” Then Shriji Maharaj said, “God desired that Jay3 and Vijay3 should be derogated from their position as they belittled the Sanaks5, who were dearest to God. It was God’s wish as he desired that the spiritual greatness of the Sanaks should be realised. Even his personal attendants were displeced when they slighted the Sanaks. However, since they reverted back Vaikunth11 Loka in their third birth, they can not be said to have fallen. It was God’s wish. He is said to have fallen who has for ever lost rapport with God. Radhikaji5 also descended on the earth but that too was wished by God, as God had desired to incarnate himself on earth. If, therefore, Radhikaji5 is said to have fallen, Lord Krishna also may be said to have fallen with Radhikaji.5 Such phenomenon of appearing on the earth is a divine will, according to which, even from the highest abode Akshardham6 - the released souls may appear on earth.

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“God, who is all-powerful, is not governed by any rulers excepting his own will, by which he would convert non-sentient into sentient and sentient into non-seintient. Without his, no released soul can ever appear on the earth. However, only those who are immature are likely to be defeated from this path. They are said to be deficient their Yoga. Proficiency in Vairagya7, Atmanishtha8, Bhakti9 and complete observance of celibacy would culminate in a fully accomplished state of Brahm10, from which no reversion is ever possible. They attain the catagory of the released souls of Shwetdweep.” Discussing the topic this much, Shriji Maharaj said further “Now I desire to ask you a question.” The Munis with the gledness said, “Please do so.” Shriji Maharaj then asked “Sanaksujat Rishi has spoken to Dhritarakshtra12 in the Udyoga-parva of Mahabharat, that one who desire to transgrace Maya13 should discard the instincts of Pramad and Moha. Those devotees of God who offer worship to God but are not particularly keen to discard these two instincts and rely merely on the greatness of God, who they believe would definitely redeem them inspite of these instincts, how do they enjoy the bliss of God during their state of embodiment and in the state of their disembodiment i.e. release ?”

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Swayamprakashanand Swami said in reply, “One who is a true devotee of God and has known the greatness of God need not necessarily be worried to root out these two instincts.” Whereupon Shriji Maharaj asked further, “To what extent is a devotee who remains conscious to eradicate these two instincts stands to gain and the other who does not possess such clarity stands to

lose ?” Swayamprakashanand Swami replied, “One who absolutely relies

upon God’s grace and not upon his spiritual endeavours is always the greater one.” Then Shriji Maharaj asked, “You pronounce the greatness of a devotee who has not realised the dangers of these two instincts which are his enimies. Just as a woman who is absolutely faithful to her husband and with sense of consciousness to preserve her fidelity, does not indulge in any amorous talks with other man, similarly, a devotee who remains conscious to eradicate these two instincts in order to preserve his fidelity towards God, is according to your judgement, lower in status than one who ignores the dangers of these two instincts, which will ultimately break the bondage of fidelity and cause his spiritual regress. How do you reconcile this, even thought one, who, in a state of unawareness to the dangers of these two instincts, offers worship to God, is sure to beat retreat some day ? An intoxicating drink, When it is taken by a non-devotee or a devotee, is sure to have its effect on the body similarly these two instincts, if not fully discarded, will cost a denigrating influence upon the devotee. However, if a devotee is conscious enough to eradicate them, Gods grace will help him in his efforts, which is a special favour done to him, whereas a non-devotee is not favoured by such divine grace. Therefore, a devotee who is aware of the working of these two instincts within him and and endeavours to uproot them is greater than the other who simply relies upon God’s greatness and remains negligent to the dangers of these vicious instincts.

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Again Shriji Maharaj asked, “Of how many elements is the gross body composed and of how many elements is the subtle body composed ? Are these elements equal in both the bodies or not ?” Swayamprakashanand Swami tried to reply but could not do so, satisfactorily. Then the Muni’s, requesting Maharaj said, “Oh Maharaj ! You may please reply this question.” Then Shriji Maharaj said, “The gross body in composed of five elements, e.g.- earth, water, fire, wind and space. The subtle body is composed of nineteen elements, e.g.-the five cognitive organs, five conative organs, five Pranas15 and four Antahkarans.14 When the five elementsof the gross body and the nineteen elements of the subtle body remain concomitantly associated, the whole body would then function. The empty cavities of the ears and eyes become active and function onlywhen the particular elements of the subtle get assimilated with them. But mere empty cavities of the gross body cannot function. Therefore, the gross body is said to be composed of twenty-four Tattvas.16 Again, the five elements of the gross body have to be associated with the nineteen elements of the subtle body, which makes the subtle body of twenty-four Tattvas.16 The subtle body remains fully in concomitance with the gross body which becomes evident when sexual intercourse in dream results in the discharge of semon through the physical body. Therefore, the gross body is in absolute oneness with the waking state and dream state of the subtle body.”

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Then the Munis asked, “Oh Maharaj ! When the gross and subtle bodies have such oneness, do the actions performed through the subtle body have the same impact as the actions performed through the gross body or is there any difference ?” Shriji Maharaj said, “If the consciousness that I am the body persists in the subtle body, actions performed through the subtle body have the same impact as those performed in the gross body. It is said that the actions performed through the subtle body do not yield fruits but this is only to boost the spirit as the aspirant. And one who ais bereft of such ego consciousness, booth of gross and subtle bodies, is not bound by the actions performed through these two bodies, in as much as such a devotee behave with Atmic Bhav.16 Such a devotee as he is in a state of physical embodiment, experiences the fruits of his past actions, but in his Atmic17 state, he believes that he is not the enjoyer of the fruits but his body enjoys the fruits. One who has not attained this Atmic Bhav17 enjoy the fruits of the actions and feels the itches of the miseries and the thrills of pleasures. Since his Atma through ignorance, is fully identified with his body., at the time of death. The embodied Atma19

is overpowered by the devils of hell, whose fearfull appearence takes away his consciousness. These devils extract his soul from the body, who then assumes such body composed of four elements to undergo the miseries of hell. Whereas one who has overcome such ignorance and has attained the Atmic18 state is graced by God and his saints, who give him divine vision at the time of death. Under the overwhelming joy of such divine vision, he also loses consciousness, and leaves the body. He gets the new body of the divine elements in the divine abode and serves God.<O:P></O:P>

Thus Ends Vachanamrit : Sarangpur - 14<O:P></O:P>

2. A scripture addressed by Lord Shri Krishna to his disciple and friend Arjuna. Geeta is an integral part of the scripture of Mahabharat. 3. Two personal attendants of supreme God. 4. Divine abode of God. 5. Great devotees of Lord Shri Krishna. 6. Divine abode of Lord Purushottam. 7. Detachment. 8. Souls inherent power. 9. Devotion. 10. Akshar. 11. A great saint. 12. King of Hastinapur and father of one hundred Kauravas. 13. One of the five eternal entities. 14. Composite form of mind, Intellect, Ego etc. 15. The vital air 16. Evolutes. 17. Soul consciousness. 18. Pertaining to the soul.

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<O:P>Shriji Maharaj, Sahajanand Swami etc are all names of Swaminarayan Bhagwan. This Vachnamrut clearly states taht we do not fall.</O:P>

April 27, 2007

“So here Srila Prabhupada offers a way we can understand the few statements that he makes that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

By Drutakarma Dasa

Srila Prabhupada has already answered the questions about the origin of the jiva. These answers can be found in all three of the above-mentioned strong categories of evidence. The answer found therein is that the conditioned souls in this material world were originally in a direct and developed relationship of devotional service to Krsna in a spiritual planet in the spiritual world. By misuse of independence, manifesting as a desire to imitate Krsna or take His position as supreme enjoyer, the soul gave up its natural state and was placed in the material world. By proper use of free will one can take up the process of Krsna consciousness and regain one’s original position. Srila Prabhupada also directly rejects the ideas that we were originally situated in the brahmajyoti or that we always existed as conditioned souls in this material world. Srila Prabhupada has never said we were originally from the Viraja River. Nor does he say that our original condition was fundamentally different from our final condition on going back to Godhead.

The origin of the souls now in this material world is undoubtedly a question beyond the range of our direct perception. We can therefore answer this question only by repeating the answer that Srila Prabhupada repeatedly gave when asked the same question. We were once in a direct and developed relationship of service to Krsna in a spiritual planet in the spiritual world. By misuse of independence we desired to imitate Krsna or take His position. Therefore we have been placed in the material world. But by becoming Krsna conscious we can regain our original position. No other view shall be presented as conclusive in any ISKCON media (print, video, electronic), classes, seminars, etc.

Srila Prabhupada directly rejected the idea that we are from the brahmajyoti (tatatha).

In resolving philosophical controversies, the teachings, instructions, and personal example of Srila Prabhupada are the first and primary resource. If a conclusion, recognized by the GBC, can be drawn from careful study of this resource, it shall guide further research into the Vedic literature, the writings of previous acaryas, and the teachings of current bona fide Vaisnava acaryas outside ISKCON. Everything that can be harmonized to the conclusion arrived at from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings shall be accepted. Any contradictions that cannot be resolved shall be placed in the category of “differences among the acaryas.” But ISKCON members shall follow the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada when there is such a difference.

In 1972, a devotee in Australia began saying that the living entities in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti. According to Madhudvisa Prabhu and Caru Prabhu, who were both in Australia at the time, this caused some fairly widespread disturbance. Srila Prabhupada therefore dictated a response, a typed copy of which was retained by Madhudvisa Prabhu. This is the famous crow and tal fruit message. Madhudvisa has said that it was distributed to the Australian temple presidents. In this statement, given in direct response to inquiries from his students on the question of the origin of the jiva, Srila Prabhupada gives many definitive answers to the questions facing us. He intended these not just as answers to a particular devotee but as his official answer to a philosophical controversy that had arisen in the Society:

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the ‘seen’ disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.” Srila Prabhupada sets up a very strong identity between the original state and the final state of liberation. He says we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position. There are two states. The free state and the covered state. The free state is “with Krsna.” There is no suggestion that the original state is “fallen.” There is also no suggestion of an original free state that is different from the final free state.

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

The idea that we were always conditioned is directly rejected. Srila Prabhupada says, “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport.”

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Here Srila Prabhupada directly compares the history of the souls in this material world with the history of Jaya and Vijaya. He speaks of “keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord.”

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased; better to spend time curing the disease.

Here Srila Prabhupada directly rejects the idea that the conditioned soul was originally in the brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada has made two points absolutely clear. First, the original position of the soul is with Krsna in His lila, or sport. Second, the souls are not originally from the brahmajyoti, but impersonalists in this material world, themselves fallen from their original position in Krsna’s pastimes, may enter and fall down from the brahmajyoti many times during the course of successive creations of the universe. Therefore, for any particular soul it may be said that we do not know if it is coming, during this particular creation, from Krsna’s eternal lila or from the brahmajyoti. Taken in this way, all the statements remain true in a consistent way. Of course, we know from other statements by Srila Prabhupada, quoted elsewhere in this paper, that the jiva is not from the brahmajyoti and was originally with Krsna in His spiritual abode. At the very end, Srila Prabhupada puts things in clear perspective when he says that we are always part and parcel of Krsna, just as a finger is always part of the body although it may be diseased. So in the same way we are always in touch with Krsna, either in his eternal lila or his lila of manifesting this material creation.

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna’s lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly; therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered.

What about this statement: “When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna’s lila”? I have heard some say that when Srila Prabhupada earlier said that we were originally with Krsna in His lila, or sport, this might just mean that we were in contact with one of Krsna’s energies—maya or the brahmajyoti. In other words, it doesn’t mean we were with Krsna personally. But this interpretation is not supported by the text. Srila Prabhupada compares the history of the conditioned soul directly with the history of Jaya and Vijaya. This clearly indicates a direct personal relationship, and not some other kind of lila. Srila Prabhupada also has directly stated in this text that we were not originally in the brahmajyoti. And in the first part of the text he said: “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration.” So when Srila Prabhupada said we were in Krsna’s lila, he meant before we were covered by the material energy, maya. In this context, the only allowable reading of lila is Krsna’s pastimes as we commonly understand them from the Tenth Canto of the Bhagavatam. But when we come to the material world, we remain in Krsna’s lila in the sense of being in contact with Krsna’s energies.

So in this famous crow and tal fruit message, which was given by Srila Prabhupada in order to resolve the same controversy that faces us today, Srila Prabhupada makes the following points about the conditioned souls:

1. We were originally with Krsna in His lila, or sport.

2. We are not originally from the brahmajyoti.

3. By comparing the situation of the conditioned souls with that of Jaya and Vijaya, Srila Prabhupada indicates that the original relationship was one of active service in a spiritual planet.

4. There is no mention of an origin in the Viraja River.

5. We are not eternally conditioned, in the sense of being always in the material word and never having been with Krsna in the spiritual world.

On the basis of this statement alone, we can confidently answer the questions raised at the beginning of this paper. Yes, we were originally with Krsna. No, we are not from the brahmajyoti. No, we are not eternally conditioned. No, we are not originally from the Viraja River. No, our relationship with Krsna was not undeveloped. The reason that we can answer the questions so confidently in this way is that the crow and tal fruit message was given by Srila Prabhupada in direct answer to the same controversy that faces us today. In this message, Srila Prabhupada also offers adjustments to other statements that appear contradictory. To the impersonalists it appears that they are from the brahmajyoti because in any particular creation they may indeed be coming down from there. But before that they were with Krsna. It is sometimes said we are eternally conditioned, but that is only because we cannot trace out the exact moment when we departed from Krsna’s lila. By comparing the state of the conditioned soul to a dreaming man, Srila Prabhupada implicitly gives an adjustment of the “no one falls from Vaikuntha” statements. The dreaming man simply thinks he has gone somewhere else. The conditioned soul may think he has left Krsna’s lila, but actually he is still in touch with Krsna. In the same way, we are never out of Vaikuntha, but we are just dreaming that we are somewhere else. In other statements, Srila Prabhupada expresses this more explicitly. As we shall see, this view is also in harmony with the statements of the previous acaryas as well as the Srimad-Bhagavatam, which Jiva Goswami calls the topmost Vedic authority.

The conclusions outlined above find additional support in Srila Prabhupada’s direct answers to questions about the origin of the jiva. These questions were put to Srila Prabhupada by disciples and followers in classes and letters. Sometimes Srila Prabhupada rhetorically raised them in his own classes. Specific answers given to specific questions, especially those that refer to the classic apparent contradictions in the jiva question, assume great importance for us as we attempt to arrive at an answer to the present controversy. The safest thing to do is to answer the questions the way Srila Prabhupada answered them.

“Actually he has not fallen”

The Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture (text 2.9.1) given by Srila Prabhupada on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan, is one of the most important statements given by Srila Prabhupada on the origin of the jiva.

“no one falls from Vaikuntha.” To put it briefly, Srila Prabhupada says that we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where we think we have fallen. In this way, we can accept the literal meaning of Srila Prabhupada’s very numerous statements that we do fall from the spiritual world and we can adjust the relatively few “no fall” statements in terms of a solution that Srila Prabhupada himself directly offers. We have not actually fallen, but we think we are fallen. Taking the opposite approach, we can, as some advocates suggest, take the “no fall” statements as literally true and adjust the “fall” statements in a way not directly offered by Srila Prabhupada (i.e., they are a “preaching strategy”). In other words, we were never in the spiritual world with Krsna, but Srila Prabhupada sometimes said we were as a preaching strategy. The following lecture excerpts demonstrate that it would not be wise for us to follow this latter approach when Srila Prabhupada has taken another approach to the same problem—we were in Vaikuntha and we just think we are fallen.

Karandhara: Translation: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working.”

Prabhupada: So, purport?

Karandhara: “Purport. The question of Maharaja Pariksit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind.”

Prabhupada: It is a very important question. Pariksit Maharaja inquired... Many people inquired that “How the living entity was with Krsna, he became fallen in this material world?” Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that “How the living entity who was with Krsna became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?” So this is the answer. Read the translation.

So here Srila Prabhupada is himself directly raising one of the specific questions that confront us today. It is clear that he accepts the premise of the question, namely that we actually were with Krsna in the spiritual world. The question is not whether or not we were with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada is accepting that. The question is why we left Krsna.

Karandhara: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead...”

Prabhupada: It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupada: Actually the moon is not moving. It is a maya, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, “I am fallen. I am material.” That is the reason....Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-maya rte rajan. Except atma-maya, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of Krsna. This illusory energy develops when we forget Krsna. That’s all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up Krsna and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore Krsna is giving us.

So here Srila Prabhupada offers a way we can understand the few statements that he makes that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation. In our original situation we were with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada says “we wanted to give up Krsna.” There is no mention of originally being in the brahmajyoti, or the Viraja River, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed relationship with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada repeats these points throughout the lecture, as can be seen from the following excerpts.

Prabhupada: Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by dream. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity. People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all. So the answer is, when somebody asks you that “When one has become in contact with this material nature?” He has not become in contact. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy. Just like the same example: A man is dreaming; there is no contact with tiger. Actually he has no contact with that. Similarly, actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krsna, so Krsna has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice.’”

So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krsna consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with— I am simply Krsna’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krsna conscious. “Oh, Krsna is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. So if you study all these verses very nicely, you get all this knowledge quickly.. . .

But the simple process is, as soon as you surrender, that you are not fallen, “It was illusion, I was dreaming, I am Krsna’s” — finished. All gone. “I am Krsna’s. I am Krsna’s eternal servant. These are all nonsense”—he immediately becomes liberated. Just try to understand. Immediately, within a second. Liberation can be attained within a second, provided we abide by the order of Krsna. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated. There is no... Is there any difficulty to understand? Just see how important this verse. It is already there, but you are not reading. Each verse, read every day carefully. Try to assimilate, understand, and you will get more profit, every day, hundred yards forward, hundred yards forward, yes. They are so important verses. How nicely composed by Vyasadeva. In two lines the whole thing is explained. This is called sastra. In two lines. Then read the purport.

Notice that Srila Prabhupada is calling this a very important verse, and he is repeating again and again his explanation and also calling it very important for the devotees to understand. He is raising the questions that confront us and answering them point by point. He is also offering a way to understand the statements that “no one falls.” Statements like these by Srila Prabhupada are addressed directly to the specific questions that confront us. They address these questions in a sustained way. Such direct, detailed, and comprehensive statements are worthy of more emphasis than isolated brief statements pulled from here and there, with no direct sign from Srila Prabhupada that they relate to the exact questions before us.

Vigraha · April 27, 2007

The concluding confirmation that the jiva soul (all of Krishna’s marginal living energy or all living entities) manifests originally and eternally as a bodily (vigraha) servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna (The Supreme Vigraha) that can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (the perpetual Kingdom of God (Krishna)

The perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, known as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana and encircled by theimperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets, where Krishna’s numerable expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) takes up 3/4 of the imperishable Spiritual Sky or total creation.

Krishna’s planet is centered above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets; both transcendental abodes are made up of living entities (individual bodily personalities or Krishna’s marginal potency) with eternal devotional bodies where no material energy (maha-maya) can exist. The nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha devotee’s (Krishna’s marginal potency) can never fall down as their bodily devotional self.

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe only 1/4 of creation), that dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s). Ones secondary consciousness enters the dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti due to their desires not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological) by the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming, Maha-Vishnu.

Understanding the true origins of all living entities

This secondary extended conscious phenomena, emanating from ones own authentic perpetual bodily form (vigraha) is further facilitated by the secondary extended mahat-tattva creation emanating from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) This has been a mystery to even many great Vaishnava’s (devotee’s of Krishna) in the past in their attempts to try and understand the true origins of all living entities.

From the view point of the mahat-tattva, the jiva-sakti (living force or life force) may also fall from the tatastha conscious condition as a spark of conditioned consciousness (jiva-bhutah transformation of the life force or jiva sakti, from its dormant conscious state called tatstha-sakti) however, from the bigger picture of, creation outside of the mahat-tattva, Srila Prabupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation and long long before that our secondary consciousness was transfered or extended from our rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavan/Vaikuntha.

Ones secondary conscious projection (jiva-bhutah) in this way, can only manifest as an dormant spiritual spark AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. Such dreamless conscious aspect of the life force (jiva-sakti) is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha. We do not originate from tatastha

The secondary creation (mahat-tattva) is a phenomena created by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that gives a reality to the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the vigraha devotee’s in Goloka-Vrndava/Vaikuntha when they choose to ignore Krishna that similtaniouly disqualifies them by being aware of their eternal Krishna Conscious rasa body (the authentic self). Both the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the atma-vigraha devotee’s originate from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) that has been a mystery to even many great Vaishnava’s (devotee’s of Krishna) in the past, yet correctly understood by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

The atma-vigraha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form, OR the so-called marginal sparks that are ALL constitutionally perpetual personal bodily forms (marginal vigraha devotee’s) ARE the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body. Krishna is the Supreme Vigraha body from whence His entire marginal vigraha devotee’s initiate. However the second-rate extended conscious phenomena, that radiate as a dreaming life force (jiva-sakti), is transferred out of the goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that takes up residence in the mahat-tattva (material universes). Ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts emanates as a secondary consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) from the atma-vigraha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form that never leaves Goloka.

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PHOTO

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada“No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming. Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully understand it. Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as, because of the attachment to pursue our non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the center instead of Krishna. This is why our dreaming condition is transferred to the mahat-tattva

Every atma (perpetual body) is a marginal vigraha Krishna Conscious devotee that is collectively the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body [Krishna's Supreme Vigraha body]).

The secondary (mahat-tattva or material creation) and third (Impersonal Brahmajyoti) realms of creation of Lord Krishna also originate from the Personal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky, both the second and third aspect of ‘conscious projection’ are the manifestation of the secondary conscious state of the atma-vigraha devotees, first as the their active stage in the mahat-tattva confined to ethereal and biological counterfeit bodily vessels and then as the inactive state of tatastha consciousness in the so called Impersonal Brahmajyoti, free from ethereal and biological containers provided within the mahat-tattva.

In the secondary creation 'of the dreaming' called the mahat-tattva, Krishna and His marginal vigraha devotees are in a dreaming condition, not as their original bodies, but in a dream state, Krishna expands as the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and the marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s expand or extend their consciousness, when NOT Krishna conscious, to those dreams Maha-Vishnu is having, where HE provides the ethereal and biological vessels that give the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee’s dreaming condition their counterfeit forms.

The difference is Krishna, the creator of the universe and the cause of all causes, is always no different from His many expansions such as Maha-Vishnu, where as the minute marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s are ‘consciously’ different from their atma-vigraha perpetual marginal body when they choose to imagine, think, dream or desire an existence without Krishna.

This secondary consciousness that manifests from ones atma-vigraha body, as well as the secondary and third creation of Lord Krishna originate from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky, have something familiar. In both cases, the expansion of Krishna (technically via His plenary expansion Balarama known as the sleeping Maha-Vishnu) and the extended consciousness of the atma-vigraha devotee’s, are in a dreaming phenomena that manifests as a dark cloud within the Spiritual Sky called the ‘cloud of the dreaming’ or mahat-tattva.

The secondary consciousness generated from the perpetual jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s only comes into existence when ones focus is not on Krishna, this secondary conscious obviously originates also within the Goloka realm but cannot exist in that realm. In this way it is very clear that the jiva-bhutah consciousness originates outside of the mahat-tattva and is transmitted into the mahat-tattva from one perpetual body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that is 3/4 of the creation, such secondary consciousness or lower self is known as the jiva-bhutah consciousness. The jiva-bhutah (the lower self) consciousness (jiva-soul or life force) is neither ethereal, biological or material because it is part of ones spiritual constitution however, when this lower conscious version of the self enters the mahat-tattva, it becomes contained and confined to an ethereal vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of beginning its journey in the dreams of Maha-Vishnu to satisfy material desires, dreams and thoughts without Krishna being in the center.

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe only 1/4 of creation), that dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s). Due to their desire not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation.

No One’s Perpetual Devotional body Falls From Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha that is not possible?

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada offers a way so we can understand the few statements he has made that actually “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation due to our dreaming secondary consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti). In our original situation, we were with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and our athentic bodily self never leaves Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada says “we wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the brahmajyoti, tatastha or the <st1>Viraja</st1><st1> River</st1> in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually in a relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact</st1:place> due to our secondary dreaming consciousness resticted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming. Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully understand it.

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as because of the attachment to pursue our no-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the center instead of Krishna.

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devi’s sakti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu.

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary. This will be clearly explained in this book.

Vigraha · April 27, 2007

No One’s Perpetual Devotional body Falls From Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha that is not possible?

Srila Prabhupada offers a way so we can understand the few statements he has made that actually “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation due to our dreaming secondary consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti). In our original situation, we were with Krishna and our authentic bodily self never leaves <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

Srila Prabhupada says “we wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming. Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully understand it.

We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as, because of the attachment to pursue our non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the center instead of Krishna. This is why our dreaming condition is transferred to the mahat-tattva.

Every atma (perpetual body) is a marginal vigraha Krishna Conscious devotee that collectively appears in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky and appears to exist collectively as a bright personal effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna’s beautiful body [Krishna's Supreme Vigraha body] that radiates the entire creation with (Brahmajyoti). The Impersonalist cannot understand this and how it is possible for the secondary conscious condition of their atma-vigraha body, to find its way to an Impersonal aspect of that Brahmajyoti.

The secondary (mahat-tattva or material creation) and third (Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastra Brahma-sayujya) realms of creation of Lord Krishna also originate from the Personal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky, both the second and third aspect of ‘conscious projection’ are the manifestation of the secondary conscious state of the atma-vigraha devotees, first as the their active stage in the mahat-tattva confined to ethereal and biological counterfeit bodily vessels, and then as the inactive state of tatastha consciousness in the so called Impersonal Brahmajyoti, free from ethereal and biological containers provided within the mahat-tattva.

In the secondary creation 'of the dreaming' called the mahat-tattva, Krishna and His marginal vigraha devotees are in a dreaming condition, not as their original bodies in Goloka, but in a sub-conscios dream state, Krishna expands as the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and the marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s expand or extend their consciousness, when NOT Krishna conscious, to those dreams Maha-Vishnu is having, where HE provides the ethereal and biological vessels that give the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee’s dreaming condition, their counterfeit forms. The difference is Krishna, the creator of the universe and the cause of all causes, is always no different from His many expansions such as Maha-Vishnu and is not affected in any way by His dreaming Maha-Vishnu expansion, where as the minute marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s are very much effected and ‘consciously’ forgetful of their atma-vigraha perpetual marginal body, when they choose to imagine, think, dream or desire an existence without Krishna.

This secondary consciousness that manifests from ones atma-vigraha body, as well as the secondary (mahat-tattva) and third (impersonal Brahmajyoti) creation of Lord Krishna, all originate from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky as the expansion of Krishna and the secondary individual life force (jiva-sakti) of the atma-vigraha marginal devotee’s

The expansion of Krishna (technically via His plenary expansion Balarama known as the sleeping Maha-Vishnu) and the extended consciousness of the atma-vigraha devotee’s, are in a dreaming phenomena that manifests as a dark cloud within the Spiritual Sky called the ‘cloud of the dreaming’ or mahat-tattva.

The secondary consciousness is therefore generated from the perpetual jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s in Goloka and only comes into existence when ones focus is not on <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. This secondary conscious obviously originates also within the Goloka realm, but cannot exist or remain in that realm because the Spiritual Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha’s are 100% <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious. Just like darkness cannot exist where there is light, non-krishna conscious dreams, thoughts and desire cannot remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky. Those dreams are therefore transferred to the perishable mahat-tattva.

In this way it is very clear that the jiva-bhutah consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) originates outside of the mahat-tattva and is transmitted into the mahat-tattva from one perpetual body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that is 3/4 of the creation because of those non-Krishna conscious thoughts or dreams. Such secondary consciousness or lower self is known as the jiva-bhutah consciousness, among other ‘jiva names’ according to the condition ones transmitted consciousness is in outside of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

April 27, 2007

Consider this, that when the fallen dreaming nitya-siddha's secondary consciousness returns to his bodily position and full potential, he would find himself in the exact same position due to the absence of the time factor having any influence of past or future in eternity.So once returned,from the eternal side, it could be said he never left just like when a light is on darkness does not exist.

This just appears to be a situation in which our conditioned by space/time logic may fail us.

Inspired insight from theist

April 27, 2007

Srila Prabhupada offers a way so we can understand the few statements he has made that actually “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation due to our dreaming secondary consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti).

You mean this world is not real and the jivas are not immersed in it? You mean the soul is not actually situated in the heart of the living entity? It is asleep in the spititual world and our authentic bodily self never leaves Krishna?

And you say that this is consistent with the teachings of Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya?

You sholud learn the basic tenets of Vaishnava siddhanta in the Madhva's line:

1) Bhagavan alone is the Supreme truth, one without a second.

2) He is the object of knowledge in all the Vedas.

3) The universe is real [satya].

4) Differences [between Isvara, jiva and matter] are real.

5) Jiva souls are the servants of Lord Hari.

6) All souls are different according to their different situations.

7) Liberation [moksa] is the name of attainment of Bhagavan's feet.

8) Bhagavan's pure worship [amala bhajana] is the only way to attain liberation.

9) Pratyaksa [direct perception], anumana [logic], and sabda [spiritual sound] are the three types of evidence.

Notice #3? Make sure your theory does not violate that principle.

April 27, 2007

Just like darkness cannot exist where there is light, non-krishna conscious dreams, thoughts and desire cannot remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky. Those dreams are therefore transferred to the perishable mahat-tattva.

In this way it is very clear that the jiva-bhutah consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) originates outside of the mahat-tattva and is transmitted into the mahat-tattva from one perpetual body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that is 3/4 of the creation because of those non-Krishna conscious thoughts or dreams. Such secondary consciousness or lower self is known as the jiva-bhutah consciousness, among other ‘jiva names’ according to the condition ones transmitted consciousness is in outside of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

Great! According to this theory, my primary consciousness remains in Goloka-Vrndavana permanently. It is only my secondary consciousness that is currently in this universe -- and that consciousness is both temporary and illusory (a dream).

So, since I'm in Goloka-Vrndavana right now, I shouldn't care about some stupid ephemeral dream. I'll celebrate this newfound knowledge by enjoying a beefsteak, washed down with some nice red wine, before I go to the casino and pick up some hot chicks for a night of fun. And all of this I can do with a clear conscience, because it doesn't affect my primary consciousness (which is my only real and eternal consciousness).

April 28, 2007

Just like darkness cannot exist where there is light, non-krishna conscious dreams, thoughts and desire cannot remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky. Those dreams are therefore transferred to the perishable mahat-tattva.

In this way it is very clear that the jiva-bhutah consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) originates outside of the mahat-tattva and is transmitted into the mahat-tattva from one perpetual body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that is 3/4 of the creation because of those non-Krishna conscious thoughts or dreams. Such secondary consciousness or lower self is known as the jiva-bhutah consciousness, among other ‘jiva names’ according to the condition ones transmitted consciousness is in outside of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

Great! According to this theory, my primary consciousness remains in Goloka-Vrndavana permanently. It is only my secondary consciousness that is currently in this universe -- and that consciousness is both temporary and illusory (a dream).

So, since I'm in Goloka-Vrndavana right now, I shouldn't care about some stupid ephemeral dream. I'll celebrate this newfound knowledge by enjoying a beefsteak, washed down with some nice red wine, before I go to the casino and pick up some hot chicks for a night of fun. And all of this I can do with a clear conscience, because it doesn't affect my primary consciousness (which is my only real and eternal consciousness).

Why does Sri Chaitanya come into this world to save the fallen souls if the souls are in Goloka? Sri Chaitanya should be preaching in Goloka, not the material world, because the people in Goloka are having "secondary consciousness" and should be woken up from that illusion.

Nobody is in maya, it is all an illusion, just like Sankaracharya said.

April 28, 2007

Why does Sri Chaitanya come into this world to save the fallen souls if the souls are in Goloka? Sri Chaitanya should be preaching in Goloka, not the material world, because the people in Goloka are having "secondary consciousness" and should be woken up from that illusion.

Nobody is in maya, it is all an illusion, just like Sankaracharya said.

The mahat-tattva (material manifestation) is real but temporary.

The ethereal and biological costumes (bodies) always belong to the rental agent, Maha-Vishnu and His wife Maya Devi. Such costumes follow His script or design that simultaneously meets the desires and requirements of each of the jiva-bhutah consciousnesses visiting from their original bodily source and place of servitude in the perpetual Spiritual Sky, which is outside the mahat-tattva or confines of the restricted material universe.

For the inhabitants of the Vaikuntha's planets, the mahat-tattva is an unnatural phenomenon.

For us souls trapped in the mahat-tattva in ethereal or biological bodies, it is hard for us to understand the concept of an imperishable universe where only the present exists beyond time, past and future that is where we originate from. For those inhabitants in the Vaikuntha's, it is therefore possible to see past, present and future within the mahat-tattva all at once, where as from the perspective within the mahat-tattva, unless one is a great devotee who Krishna allows to view the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, from outside His dreams of the material manifestation, (and outside the confines of ethereal and biological vehicals) yet still within the boundaries of the mahat-tattva, then viewing past, present and future within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu is not possible.

The Impersonalists foolishly believe the mahat-tattva is the complete creation and nothing else exists; they can neither view nor experience the existence of the vast Vaikuntha real outside the mahat-tattva that takes up the majority of creation and encircles the insignificant mahat-tattva cloud.

They also think the mahat-tattva is an illusion however, the mahat-tattva is real but unlike the vast majority of the creation in the Spiritual Sky, it is temporary, as already explained, and fades in and out of existence due to the temporary nature of the mahat-tattva governed by the ‘unnatural occurrence’ of time (divided into past present and future), ethereal and biological vessels, impermanence, birth, disease, old age, decay, forgetfulness and death.

Such an impermanent phenomena cannot exist within the other three quarters of the indestructible Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti where the vast Vaikuntha planets and atma-jiva-vigraha marginal devotees perpetually thrive on loving devotional service that surround Krishna’s Personal intimate Goloka-Vrndavana abode.

Therefore the following explanation may 'give the impression' that the mahat-tattva is an illusion however, it only appears that way from the level of the Vaikuntha's where time, past, future and impermanence has no meaning in the personal pastimes of Krishna and His Vishnu expansions because everything is always happening now. From this level 'outside' the mahat-tattva, one can see everything (past, present and future) happening in the mahat-tattva or material manifestation. This is important to understand if one is to understand the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

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