The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

Vigraha · April 28, 2007

You mean this world is not real and the jivas are not immersed in it? You mean the soul is not actually situated in the heart of the living entity? It is asleep in the spititual world and our authentic bodily self never leaves Krishna?

And you say that this is consistent with the teachings of Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya?

You sholud learn the basic tenets of Vaishnava siddhanta in the Madhva's line:

1) Bhagavan alone is the Supreme truth, one without a second.

2) He is the object of knowledge in all the Vedas.

3) The universe is real [satya].

4) Differences [between Isvara, jiva and matter] are real.

5) Jiva souls are the servants of Lord Hari.

6) All souls are different according to their different situations.

7) Liberation [moksa] is the name of attainment of Bhagavan's feet.

8) Bhagavan's pure worship [amala bhajana] is the only way to attain liberation.

9) Pratyaksa [direct perception], anumana [logic], and sabda [spiritual sound] are the three types of evidence.

Notice #3? Make sure your theory does not violate that principle.

The mahat-tattva is real but temporary. The non Krishna conscious dreams of the Nitya-siddha devotee that are transfered to the mahat-tattva, are real but temporary

In Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, the actions, thoughts and dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee's are all real, are all on the same level of reality. This is hard for us to understand from our dimensional platform of consciousness because we are governed by past, present, future, decay and forgetfulness while our consciousness (jiva-sakti) is restricted to the mahat-tattva. On the absolute level every dream and thought is as real as ones deeds. Even in the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva, where ones life force (jiva-sakti) is confined to an ethereal body in a sub-space dimension of the mahat-tattva, ones thoughts and deeds are on an equal footing. The heavenly realm or atmosphere is completely different from our secular condition on this gross material planet where the ethereal or subtle body that houses the jiva consciousness, is further restricted and restrained by a biological vessel.

So how are we to understand that our dreams are also real and transmitted as a conscious state or living force we call the jiva-sakti?

The answer to that is our dreams are non-different from the vigraha body that is transmitting them, the only difference being is when one is devotionally serving as their full potential bodily self, they are Krishna Conscious dreams and deeds of loving service to Krishna, when not, such dreams, that are real, are transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud in the same Spiritual Sky that is just as real as the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha aspect of the Spiritual Sky except, that cloud in one corner of the Spiritual Sky, unlike the rest of Krishna’s perpetual creation unaffected by the concept of past and future, is a temporary phenomenon contolled by time, past, present, future, impermance, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age and death. This means that the dreams we have in our atma-vigraha body, unlike the dreams we have in our biological bodies, are very real and have substance and form called the jiva-sakti that becomes contained in ethereal and biological bodies provide by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva. Eventually such dreams fade and change over time (the jiva-sakti or life force always remains the transmitted consciousness despite these changes) due to the temporary nature of the vessels one’s jiva consciousness is confined to. The life force or jiva-sakti therefore become further entangled within the cycle of birth and death within the mahat-tattva or material manifestation. Such mahat-tattva (material) time of past, present and future only exists in the mahat-tattva, where ones extended life force of dreams (jiva-sakti) can only be fulfilled by Maha-Vishnu who offers the visiting dreams (jiva-sakti) ethereal and biological bodies or vessels for there journey within the mahat-tattva, so their independent non-Krishna conscious dreams can be expressed. The jiva-soul is real and such extended life force (jiva-sakti) emanating from Goloka-Vrndavana, is in this way transferred to the mahat-tattva. In this way the jiva-sakti can appear as a jiva spark, a seed distributed by Maha-Vishnu as He glances over His mahat-tattva creation or even a spark of inactive consciousness called tatastha.

The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1> of<st1> Krishna</st1></st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode, this means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha Krishna Conscious body is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe).

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

In a comparable way, whens ones dreams or thoughts are not <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition. This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary. In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed.

Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s. There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1><st1> of Krishna</st1></st1:place>.

To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) is extended to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body).

As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana.

Vigraha · April 28, 2007

“The perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna (above in the red lotus flower and unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the surrounding yellow planets) is made up of personalities (marginal) with eternal devotional bodies, where as the maha-tattva (material universe) and its impersonal escape, is nothing other than the rebellious dreams of just a few of those eternal personalities. Such non-Krishna conscious dreams are contained in outward etheral or biological vessels (or in an impersonal inactive liberated state) The maha-tattva is a dark cloud that is real but impermanent, is where the four-armed expansion of <st1:place w:st="on">Balarama</st1:place>, the dreaming Maha-Vishnu, and his wife Maya devi resides, as shown above” Always chant Hare Krishna!”

Generally nitya-siddha among Vaishnava’s means one never falls to the conditioned living entity stage, known as the jiva-bhutah non-Krishna dreaming conscious condition of the life force (jiva-sakti), which is the sub-conscious lower self (nitya-baddha or eternally conditioned state) that is oblivious to their full Krishna Conscious atma-vigraha body in Krishna’s perpetual Kingdom.

The lower conscious self (jiva-bhutah) is always in the nitya-baddha condition of comatose consciousness that can only actively manifest or exist within the perishable material universal dream. Therefore, more or less, their understanding is correct however, even though the nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha bodies never fall down from Krishna’s <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Personal</st1><st1> Kingdom</st1></st1:place>, the introverted dreaming conscious state ‘within’, which is called the nitya-baddha-jiva-bhutah, is generated out of the goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky by Yoga-maya to the confines of the mahat-tattva under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu and influence of Maha-maya, due to non Krishna conscious desires, thoughts and dreams and manifests as a sub-conscious force (jiva-sakti) originating from ones authentic self or nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha bodily form.

Even though ones original body cannot fall down, it is possible one can enter a trance like consciousness and forget that unique form due to choice (marginal characteristic) and 'consciously' fall to the nitya-baddha eternally conditioned state. This is similar to forgetting the biological body while sleeping and dreaming.

In simple terms, the atma-vigraha body, or higher conscious awareness in the form of ones real bodily form serving Krishna in the Kingdom of God, is eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and can never fall down, where as the lower conscious self, manifested as a multiple dreaming bodily identities and forms within the material universe or maha-tattva, is eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) and is always in that state.

A crude example of understanding the parodox of the eternal liberated state (nitya-siddha) and the eternally conditioned state (nitya-baddha) similtaniously existing at the same time, is within a large building the basement is always at the bottom and the penthouse suite is always at the top. When one is in the penthouse, that does not mean the basement does not exist, it is always there at the bottom of the building. In the same way, both the nitya-baddha and nitya-siddha condition exists eternally and at the same time, it just depends on which condition of consciousness one is in. The nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha condition is one’s real <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious bodily form, while the nitya-baddha condition is illusion and the concoctions of non-Krishna conscious desires that are actually real but temporary.

This is not difficult to understand if you chant the Hare Krishna Maha-mantra, the recommended sacrifice for this age of Kali-yuga.

The various Vedic texts tell us that the<st1:place w:st="on"><st1> Kingdom</st1> <st1>of Krishna</st1> </st1:place> is an eternal active place of unlimited pastimes where nothing perishes or fades or leaves. Everything in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode.

This also means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode, that is forever there and has always been there even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this everlasting reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe or nitya-baddha condition of existence.

In a simple way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, similarly just like those dreams one has in their biological body, the non-Krishna Conscious illusionary dreams and thoughts manifest a separate dreaming version of the self. A crude example of this is when one is awake in their biological body, or when that body is asleep and one is dreaming, it is the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness, one as the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies that appear real while they are dreaming. In a similar way, ones dreams or thoughts create a separate reality that is real but temporary (unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping) and only exists within the maha-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body).

This separate reality or lower conscious self that is existent but perishable is called the jiva-bhutah non-Krishna conscious active condition of awareness, that is transferred and exists as individual consciousness within the impermanent realms of the material universal dream (mahat-tattva) under the jurisdiction of Krishna's Brother Balarama in His Maha-Vishnu form.

This jiva-bhutah state of consciousness can again further transform to the jiva-nikaya inactive condition of awareness, after much difficult austerity withdrawing from the theatre of Maha-Vishnu’s material illusionary universe or apparition, (real but tempoary) which is a dark cloud of ‘the dreaming’ that is in one corner of Krishna’s Personal Spiritual Creation or Brahmajyoti. This Brahmajyoti/Brahman is an effulgence full of unlimited individual devotees as their real body serving on unlimited Spiritual Planets, called Vishnulokas that surrounds/emanates from the body of the Supreme Lord in His Personal Abode called Goloka-Vrndavana Planet.

Guruvani · April 28, 2007

I didn't see one shastric reference in either of the last two posts, just a lot of speculative rambling that has no authority.

The issue of the fall of the jiva can only be dealt with in terms of shastric statements. Manufacturing a theary based on speculation is useless mental speculation.

The only example in shastra of living entities falling from the spiritual sky is Jaya and Vijaya. They stepped outside the gates of Vaikuntha and were vulnerable at that point.

Within the gates of Vaikuntha there is not ONE shastric reference of the fall of a nitya siddha.

All theories to the contrary are useless speculation and have no authoritative shastric basis and should not be presented as any sort of authentic knowledge.

The fall of the jiva can ONLY be dealt with in shastric terms and this mental speculation to try and prove one theory over another is bogus.

There is no shastric example or reference of any jiva falling from within the gates of Vaikuntha and to try and prove such is ridiculous.

Bogus speculations on the fall of the jiva should not be allowed on a Vaishnava forum.

The acharyas do not allow bogus speculation on these matters and such bogus speculation should be censored so as not to confuse members who come to the forum for knowledge and understanding.

Beggar · April 29, 2007

Guruvani, telling it like it is, folks!

theist · April 29, 2007

Horsesh**. I agree there is no resolution to this particular debate however the call to censor such a conversation where opposing views are discussed is the real danger.

Censor the censors I say. Silence those that would silence all views opposing theirs from being heard.

April 29, 2007

Horsesh**. I agree there is no resolution to this particular debate however the call to censor such a conversation where opposing views are discussed is the real danger.

Censor the censors I say. Silence those that would silence all views opposing theirs from being heard.

All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

The real danger is the presentation of a pseudo forum for debate where none of the rules of debate apply.

Where there is no one or more persons who are competent enough in the sastra to be the facilitator and mediator of a proper debate, wherein opposing views which are not sastricly backed hold no weight.

Anyone can wander into this forum, and witness a discussion, and from there conclude that some word juggler, who may even use sastra to falsely back his false conclusions, is putting forth the proper reasonable presentation. It may appeal to their own tendency to be cheated.

Nonetheless, the Krsna Consciousness movement is about SAVING all of us who have the tendency to be cheated, from being cheated.

This requires seriousness and gravity, and that is lacking where someone can waltz into the room and fool the aspirants and neophytes with sophistry, and there is no-one to set the record straight.

Of course Guruvani could do the next best thing, and take on the responsibility of responding sastrically to each bogus argument put forth on the strength of scripture and leave it to the readers to decide who is right, as there is no higher authority here to declare such when opponents reach the pinnacle of their debate, or to prevent someone from spouting on and on after they have been defeated.

Without someone doing this, anyone who has the will and stamina can simply oppose those speaking the truth using false arguments and just wait til the other person gives up in disgust. They get the last word, and possibly someone looking on gets cheated and buys their line of horsespit. Of course, they get to be "heard". Which is all their selfish ego wants, they have not the ability to listen.

Some people salivate at the possibility of these endless circular speculative logicians having free reign at a place where aspiring Vaisnavas meet to discuss the truth. And do not want any type of authority figure regulating the fray.

Some people loathe that idea, but like the idea of having a forum where people may come and respectfully submit their ideas in debate under the vedic guidelines of honesty, humility, proper decorum, and respect, which are enforced by proper authority. And if they can't find it, they call on people to enforce such decorums who have no real interest in doing so, instead of setting such a strict place up themselves.

And then there is me. Probably wasting my time stating the obvious, and bound to take my own advice somewhere along the line.

Hari Bol

Guruvani · April 29, 2007

Of course Guruvani could do the next best thing, and take on the responsibility of responding sastrically to each bogus argument put forth on the strength of scripture and leave it to the readers to decide who is right, as there is no higher authority here to declare such when opponents reach the pinnacle of their debate, or to prevent someone from spouting on and on after they have been defeated.

Well, this topic and this subject have been debated in depth on several occasions on this forum and others. Rather than repeat an age old topic that has been extensively and thoroughly dealt with many times before, I think the moderators should just close the thread and post links to the topic as it has been dealt with previously.

I am not going to get into a shastric thesis on the subject because the subject has already been dispatched by much more learned persons than I.

If somebody missed the topic as it was discussed before, then they should just go back and read the previous topics dealing with the issue instead of repeating an old topic that people who have been on these forums for years have already gone over many times.

So, somebody comes in and posts a bunch of speculation and concoction about the fall of the jiva and appears to win a debate that nobody else wants to deal with because it has already been dealt with years ago on these forums.

How many times is the subject going to be brought up with expectations that anybody will want to debate the subject?

Many of us have dealt with that issue time and time again.

I think the best policy of the forum moderators is to close topics that are old news and have been debated ad nauseum for several years now.

Experienced persons who know shastra aren't going to come back every six months and debate false theories every time some upstart wants to start propagating some bogus siddhanta.

Close the topic and refer to the topic from previous discussions, as it has been dealt with thorougly several times on these internet forums.

That is my humble suggestion.

Otherwise, mental speculators will get away with their bogus speculations because learned persons are tired of debating the topic every six months on the forums.

There is no censorship in this.

Both sides of the the debate have been given sufficient opportunity to discuss the matter many times before.

How many times is this same old hackneyed subject going to be brought up?

It's old news.

There is no reason to keep going over the issue again and again every time some newby finds the forums and wants to make a noise.

Guruvani · April 29, 2007

The mahat-tattva is real but temporary. The non Krishna conscious dreams of the Nitya-siddha devotee that are transfered to the mahat-tattva, are real but temporary

In Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, the actions, thoughts and dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee's are all real, are all on the same level of reality. This is hard for us to understand from our dimensional platform of consciousness because we are governed by past, present, future, decay and forgetfulness while our consciousness (jiva-sakti) is restricted to the mahat-tattva. On the absolute level every dream and thought is as real as ones deeds.

Look at that mess!

This is all bogus mental concoction.

Why should some speculator be allowed to post this kind of nonsense as if it is authentic shastric knowledge?

It's obvious that the author of such nonsense is a mental speculator who thinks he can manufacture shastra in his (or her) conditioned mind.

The moderators should tag such nonsense as mental speculation, so that innocent newcomers are not misled by this kind of ridiculous nonsense speculation.

The shastra never mentions anything about nitya-siddhas having non-Krishna conscious dreams.

It's just ignorant and stupid to post such crazy imaginations.

It should not be allowed.

Debate should be allowed from shastric perspectives, not from mental concoctions.

Real debate in the Vaishnava circles does not include mental speculation as true debate.

It must have basis in shastra.

The above posts of the mental speculator are mental concoctions that are being presented as legitimate knowledge.

theist · April 29, 2007

The real danger is the presentation of a pseudo forum for debate where none of the rules of debate apply.

The forum is called Spiritual Discussions. This is not advertised as a debate forum.I think you may have been watching too many Oxford Debate's and have forgotten where you are.

theist · April 29, 2007

Products of the group think as I think or don't think at all school of spiritual investigation I see. Both sides have it. The Iskcon side and the GM side. Explore something outside of their established perimeters and you are a heretic. Such frightened minds are not fit for the rigors of real spiritual inquiry I don't care how many slokas they memorize.

If you folks are so upset by this thread why do you come to it? Start your own thread and try to protect the newcomers if that is really your desire and not just to whine and *itch like little 12 year old girls.

Guruvani · April 30, 2007

Products of the group think as I think or don't think at all school of spiritual investigation I see. Both sides have it. The Iskcon side and the GM side. Explore something outside of their established perimeters and you are a heretic. Such frightened minds are not fit for the rigors of real spiritual inquiry I don't care how many slokas they memorize.

If you folks are so upset by this thread why do you come to it? Start your own thread and try to protect the newcomers if that is really your desire and not just to whine and *itch like little 12 year old girls.

there is no ISKCON side vs. GM side.

There is only the shastric side and all else is imaginations.

Nrsinghadev · April 30, 2007

Hare Krishna and dandavats.

If you'll please allow me to post a comment on the following quote:

Products of the group think as I think or don't think at all school of spiritual investigation I see. Both sides have it. The Iskcon side and the GM side. Explore something outside of their established perimeters and you are a heretic. Such frightened minds are not fit for the rigors of real spiritual inquiry I don't care how many slokas they memorize.

First try to establish if that so-called 'thing outside of established perimeters' is going to add something valuable to your spiritual life.

Second, what is the value of your spiritual path and does it constitute real spiritual inquiry? Let's suppose your path is Krishna consciousness and that you concur it constitutes real spiritual inquiry. Have you seen anything superior to it? If not, then where is the need to look outside of it? Narrowminded? Krishna says:

B.G. 9.34:

"man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māḿ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi yuktvaivam

ātmānaḿ mat-parāyaṇaḥ

"Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me."

B.G. 9.22:

"ananyāś cintayanto māḿ

ye janāḥ paryupāsate

teṣāḿ nityābhiyuktānāḿ

yoga-kṣemaḿ vahāmy aham

But those who always worship Me with exclusive devotion, meditating on My transcendental form — to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they have."

B.G. 18.65:

"man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māḿ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi satyaḿ te

pratijāne priyo 'si me

Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend."

B.G. 18.66:

"sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear."

All of the above quoted verses propagate Ahaituki Bhakti to Krishna. Exclusive devotion. Single minded devotion is the key to winning Krishna's heart. Not any other way.

Now let's suppose you have taken HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada as your guru. What does HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada say about this in his purport:

According to the devotional process, one should simply accept such religious principles that will lead ultimately to the devotional service of the Lord. One may perform a particular occupational duty according to his position in the social order, but if by executing his duty one does not come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all his activities are in vain. Anything that does not lead to the perfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be avoided. One should be confident that in all circumstances Kṛṣṇa will protect him from all difficulties. There is no need of thinking how one should keep the body and soul together. Kṛṣṇa will see to that. One should always think himself helpless and should consider Kṛṣṇa the only basis for his progress in life. As soon as one seriously engages himself in devotional service to the Lord in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, at once he becomes freed from all contamination of material nature. There are different processes of religion and purificatory processes by cultivation of knowledge, meditation in the mystic yoga system, etc., but one who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa does not have to execute so many methods. That simple surrender unto Kṛṣṇa will save him from unnecessarily wasting time. One can thus make all progress at once and be freed from all sinful reactions.

Obviously one can quote an infinite amount of references to our Guru parampara propagating this exclusive devotion.

So what does Prabhupada have to say about mental speculation?

In the book "In search of the Ultimate Goal of life" Prabhupada says:

" Nobody whose basic tendency is to engage in mundane arguments can enter the precincts of these topics. They are above such a materialistic approach. Because the subject matter is supramundane, it is therefore not possible to understand it without having reached the supramental state.

"Nobody need try to understand these transcendental topics by strenuous academic manipulation of the brain and mind, because both the mundane brain and mind are useless when attempting to reach this supramental state. Only service to Godhead and His agents can help one to experience the revelation of the truth. Mental speculation, which produces only pseudoresults, simply creates a disturbance."

In the Bhagavad-gita, it is recommended that one approach the spiritual master for supramundane knowledge under the protection of service and surrender accompanied by relevant inquiries.

In a letter to Chaturbus, dated january 22, 1972 Prabhupada writes:

As for the difference between mental speculation and philosophical speculation, we take it that everything is known by the psychological action of the mind, so that philosophical speculation is the same as mental speculation if it is merely the random or haphazard activity of the brain to understand everything and making theories, "if's" and "maybe's." But if philosophical speculation is directed by Sastra and Guru, and if the goal of such philosophical attempts is to achieve Visnu, then that philosophical speculation is not mental speculation.

In another letter to Dinesh, dated january 22, 1970 regarding a book translation:

"The idea is that we should not make any addition or subtraction of mental speculation, but we should endeavor, even if we do not fully understand from our present platform, to present simply the philosophy as we have received it directly and realized it by practical experience.

And from another letter, to Hamsaduta, dated january 23, 1970:

"After all these are facts for the process of realization, but we can try to understand them as far as possible from the statement of authorized Scriptures through the version of the Spiritual Master or saintly persons.

Of course, it is up to the devotee how serious he or she takes Guru and Krishna's instructions, nobody will stop anyone from engaging in useless mental speculation. Mental speculation does not equal spiritual discussions.

Haribol!

April 30, 2007

Sri Guru Gauranga Jayatah!

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada used the compound word "spiritual discussion" once in his writing. CC Madhya 8.262

TEXT 262

TEXT

ista-gosthi krsna-katha kahi' kata-ksana

prabhu-pada dhari' raya kare nivedana

SYNONYMS

ista-gosthi—spiritual discussion; krsna-katha—topics of Krsna; kahi'-talking; kata-ksana—for some time; prabhu-pada—the lotus feet of the Lord; dhari'-catching; raya—Ramananda Raya; kare—makes; nivedana—submission.

TRANSLATION

That next evening, after discussing the topic of Krsna for some time, Ramananda Raya caught hold of the lotus feet of the Lord and spoke as follows.

And the first use of Ista-Gosthi is found in the Third Canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam, in the Purport to 3.29.17

A devotee shows compassion to those poor souls who are wanting in spiritual knowledge by enlightening them in order to elevate them to Krsna consciousness. That is one of the duties of a devotee. He should also make friendship with persons who are on an equal level with himself or who have the same understanding that he does. For a devotee, there is no point in making friendships with ordinary persons; he should make friendship with other devotees so that by discussing among themselves, they may elevate one another on the path of spiritual understanding. This is called ista-gosthi..

The topic of Krsna is what we are discussing when we use the term "Spiritual discussion". Whether a person's level of realization of Krsna is as the Personal Bhagavan, the supersoul within, or the all pervasive "God" stuff we know as the Brahmajyoti, a Gaudiya Vaisnava may discuss spirituality with any person who acknowledges one of the above forms of the Supreme Spirit, Krsna.

And when speaking in circles where spiritual topics regarding Krsna are discussed, HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami had a very pointed guideline for his disciples. He writes in the Bhagavad Gita Chapter 7 verse 15

TRANSLATION
Austerity of speech consists in speaking truthfully and beneficially and in avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the Vedas regularly.

PURPORT

One should not speak in such a way as to agitate the minds of others. Of course, when a teacher speaks, he can speak the truth for the instruction of his students, but such a teacher should not speak to others who are not his students if he will agitate their minds. This is penance as far as talking is concerned. Besides that, one should not talk nonsense. When speaking in spiritual circles, one's statements mustbe upheld by the scriptures. One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying. At the same time, such talk should be very pleasurable to the ear. By such discussions, one may derive the highest benefit and elevate human society. There is a limitless stock of Vedic literature, and one should study this. This is called penance of speech.

So we speak in hopes that others might derive the highest benefit and be elevated. We are supposed to be elevating each other in spiritual understanding by speaking our discussions.

And since requesting that the recommended transcendental decorum and discipline be adhered to in a forum section named "spiritual discussions" seems to agitate the mind of some of those present, I deduce they have a different understanding of what a spiritual discussion is, and thus have a different goal in mind when speaking on these topics that is not exactly the standard His Divine Grace had in his mind, and that some of us aspire to.

So I will no longer agitate them from whatever they are really looking for.

For as my Spiritual Master suggests to me in that same purport from SB 3.29.27

In Bhagavad-gita there is reference to bodhayantah parasparam, “discussing among themselves.” Generally pure devotees utilize their valuable time in chanting and discussing various activities of Lord Krsna or Lord Caitanya amongst themselves. There are innumerable books, such as the puranas, Mahabharata, Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita and Upanisads, which contain countless subjects for discussion among two devotees or more. Friendship should be cemented between persons with mutual interests and understanding. Such persons are said to be sva jati, “of the same caste.” The devotee should avoid a person whose character is not fixed in the standard understanding; even though he may be a Vaisnava, or a devotee of Krsna, if his character is not correctly representative, then he should be avoided. One should steadily control the senses and the mind and strictly follow the rules and regulations, and he should make friendship with persons of the same standard.

Different Strokes for Different Folks.

Ahhh Theist. You may have your standard. Enjoy.

Smell ya later.

See you somewhere else in cyberspace Guruvani, keep the faith!

ys

Iron Guest of Prabhupada's Grace

Hare Krsna

April 30, 2007

The concluding confirmation that the jiva soul (all of Krishna’s marginal living energy or all living entities) manifests originally and eternally as a bodily (vigraha) servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna (The Supreme Vigraha) that can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (the perpetual Kingdom of God (Krishna)

The perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, known as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana and encircled by theimperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets, where Krishna’s numerable expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) takes up 3/4 of the imperishable Spiritual Sky or total creation.

Krishna’s planet is centered above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets; both transcendental abodes are made up of living entities (individual bodily personalities or Krishna’s marginal potency) with eternal devotional bodies where no material energy (maha-maya) can exist. The nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha devotee’s (Krishna’s marginal potency) can never fall down as their bodily devotional self.

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe only 1/4 of creation), that dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s). Ones secondary consciousness enters the dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti due to their desires not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological) by the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming, Maha-Vishnu.

Understanding the true origins of all living entities

This secondary extended conscious phenomena, emanating from ones own authentic perpetual bodily form (vigraha) is further facilitated by the secondary extended mahat-tattva creation emanating from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) This has been a mystery to even many great Vaishnava’s (devotee’s of Krishna) in the past in their attempts to try and understand the true origins of all living entities.

From the view point of the mahat-tattva, the jiva-sakti (living force or life force) may also fall from the tatastha conscious condition as a spark of conditioned consciousness (jiva-bhutah transformation of the life force or jiva sakti, from its dormant conscious state called tatstha-sakti) however, from the bigger picture of, creation outside of the mahat-tattva, Srila Prabupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation and long long before that our secondary consciousness was transfered or extended from our rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavan/Vaikuntha.

Ones secondary conscious projection (jiva-bhutah) in this way, can only manifest as an dormant spiritual spark AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. Such dreamless conscious aspect of the life force (jiva-sakti) is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha. We do not originate from tatastha

The secondary creation (mahat-tattva) is a phenomena created by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that gives a reality to the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the vigraha devotee’s in Goloka-Vrndava/Vaikuntha when they choose to ignore Krishna that similtaniouly disqualifies them by being aware of their eternal Krishna Conscious rasa body (the authentic self). Both the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the atma-vigraha devotee’s originate from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) that has been a mystery to even many great Vaishnava’s (devotee’s of Krishna) in the past, yet correctly understood by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

The atma-vigraha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form, OR the so-called marginal sparks that are ALL constitutionally perpetual personal bodily forms (marginal vigraha devotee’s) ARE the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body. Krishna is the Supreme Vigraha body from whence His entire marginal vigraha devotee’s initiate. However the second-rate extended conscious phenomena, that radiate as a dreaming life force (jiva-sakti), is transferred out of the goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that takes up residence in the mahat-tattva (material universes). Ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts emanates as a secondary consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) from the atma-vigraha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form that never leaves Goloka.

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PHOTO

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or Krishna Consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada“No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming. Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully understand it. Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as, because of the attachment to pursue our non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the center instead of Krishna. This is why our dreaming condition is transferred to the mahat-tattva

Every atma (perpetual body) is a marginal vigraha Krishna Conscious devotee that is collectively the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body [Krishna's Supreme Vigraha body]).

The secondary (mahat-tattva or material creation) and third (Impersonal Brahmajyoti) realms of creation of Lord Krishna also originate from the Personal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky, both the second and third aspect of ‘conscious projection’ are the manifestation of the secondary conscious state of the atma-vigraha devotees, first as the their active stage in the mahat-tattva confined to ethereal and biological counterfeit bodily vessels and then as the inactive state of tatastha consciousness in the so called Impersonal Brahmajyoti, free from ethereal and biological containers provided within the mahat-tattva.

In the secondary creation 'of the dreaming' called the mahat-tattva, Krishna and His marginal vigraha devotees are in a dreaming condition, not as their original bodies, but in a dream state, Krishna expands as the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and the marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s expand or extend their consciousness, when NOT Krishna conscious, to those dreams Maha-Vishnu is having, where HE provides the ethereal and biological vessels that give the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee’s dreaming condition their counterfeit forms.

The difference is Krishna, the creator of the universe and the cause of all causes, is always no different from His many expansions such as Maha-Vishnu, where as the minute marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s are ‘consciously’ different from their atma-vigraha perpetual marginal body when they choose to imagine, think, dream or desire an existence without Krishna.

This secondary consciousness that manifests from ones atma-vigraha body, as well as the secondary and third creation of Lord Krishna originate from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky, have something familiar. In both cases, the expansion of Krishna (technically via His plenary expansion Balarama known as the sleeping Maha-Vishnu) and the extended consciousness of the atma-vigraha devotee’s, are in a dreaming phenomena that manifests as a dark cloud within the Spiritual Sky called the ‘cloud of the dreaming’ or mahat-tattva.

The secondary consciousness generated from the perpetual jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s only comes into existence when ones focus is not on Krishna, this secondary conscious obviously originates also within the Goloka realm but cannot exist in that realm. In this way it is very clear that the jiva-bhutah consciousness originates outside of the mahat-tattva and is transmitted into the mahat-tattva from one perpetual body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that is 3/4 of the creation, such secondary consciousness or lower self is known as the jiva-bhutah consciousness. The jiva-bhutah (the lower self) consciousness (jiva-soul or life force) is neither ethereal, biological or material because it is part of ones spiritual constitution however, when this lower conscious version of the self enters the mahat-tattva, it becomes contained and confined to an ethereal vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of beginning its journey in the dreams of Maha-Vishnu to satisfy material desires, dreams and thoughts without Krishna being in the center.

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe only 1/4 of creation), that dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s). Due to their desire not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation.

No One’s Perpetual Devotional body Falls From Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha that is not possible?

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada offers a way so we can understand the few statements he has made that actually “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation due to our dreaming secondary consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti). In our original situation, we were with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and our athentic bodily self never leaves Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada says “we wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the brahmajyoti, tatastha or the <st1>Viraja</st1><st1> River</st1> in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually in a relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact</st1:place> due to our secondary dreaming consciousness resticted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming. Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully understand it.

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as because of the attachment to pursue our no-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the center instead of Krishna.

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devi’s sakti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu.

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary. This will be clearly explained in this book.

Why is it so difficult for u guys to accept what Prabhupada has said, you cannt change what Srila Prabhupada has said. Vigraha is not speculating, he has clearly quoted Srila Prabhupada's statements on this matter that we do NOT ORIGINATE FROM TATASTHA! Vigraha has explained this very well. It all rests on wether you all belive in a PERSONAL origin or an IMPERSONAL origin.

No-one can change what Prabhupada has said - "WE WHERE ORIGINALY IN KRISHNA LILA IN GOLOKA" I also suggest you read the book 'OUR ORIGINAL POSITION' that I believe Vigraha has given the purport too. The following is also NOT speculation because it is based on Srila Prabhupada's explanation that we all did indeed ORIGINATE from Goloka.

April 30, 2007

The mahat-tattva is real but temporary. The non Krishna conscious dreams of the Nitya-siddha devotee that are transfered to the mahat-tattva, are real but temporary

In Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, the actions, thoughts and dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee's are all real, are all on the same level of reality. This is hard for us to understand from our dimensional platform of consciousness because we are governed by past, present, future, decay and forgetfulness while our consciousness (jiva-sakti) is restricted to the mahat-tattva. On the absolute level every dream and thought is as real as ones deeds. Even in the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva, where ones life force (jiva-sakti) is confined to an ethereal body in a sub-space dimension of the mahat-tattva, ones thoughts and deeds are on an equal footing. The heavenly realm or atmosphere is completely different from our secular condition on this gross material planet where the ethereal or subtle body that houses the jiva consciousness, is further restricted and restrained by a biological vessel.

So how are we to understand that our dreams are also real and transmitted as a conscious state or living force we call the jiva-sakti?

The answer to that is our dreams are non-different from the vigraha body that is transmitting them, the only difference being is when one is devotionally serving as their full potential bodily self, they are Krishna Conscious dreams and deeds of loving service to Krishna, when not, such dreams, that are real, are transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud in the same Spiritual Sky that is just as real as the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha aspect of the Spiritual Sky except, that cloud in one corner of the Spiritual Sky, unlike the rest of Krishna’s perpetual creation unaffected by the concept of past and future, is a temporary phenomenon contolled by time, past, present, future, impermance, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age and death. This means that the dreams we have in our atma-vigraha body, unlike the dreams we have in our biological bodies, are very real and have substance and form called the jiva-sakti that becomes contained in ethereal and biological bodies provide by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva. Eventually such dreams fade and change over time (the jiva-sakti or life force always remains the transmitted consciousness despite these changes) due to the temporary nature of the vessels one’s jiva consciousness is confined to. The life force or jiva-sakti therefore become further entangled within the cycle of birth and death within the mahat-tattva or material manifestation. Such mahat-tattva (material) time of past, present and future only exists in the mahat-tattva, where ones extended life force of dreams (jiva-sakti) can only be fulfilled by Maha-Vishnu who offers the visiting dreams (jiva-sakti) ethereal and biological bodies or vessels for there journey within the mahat-tattva, so their independent non-Krishna conscious dreams can be expressed. The jiva-soul is real and such extended life force (jiva-sakti) emanating from Goloka-Vrndavana, is in this way transferred to the mahat-tattva. In this way the jiva-sakti can appear as a jiva spark, a seed distributed by Maha-Vishnu as He glances over His mahat-tattva creation or even a spark of inactive consciousness called tatastha.

The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1> of<st1> Krishna</st1></st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode, this means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha Krishna Conscious body is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe).

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

In a comparable way, whens ones dreams or thoughts are not <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition. This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary. In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed.

Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s. There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1><st1> of Krishna</st1></st1:place>.

To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) is extended to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body).

As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana.

This is a very clear and well written expanation of Sila Prabhupada's teaching by Pradyumna Swami, it is not based on any speculation, it clearly expains what Prabhupada has already said. Once again also read 'Ones Original Possition'

April 30, 2007

Look at that mess!
This is all bogus mental concoction.

Why should some speculator be allowed to post this kind of nonsense as if it is authentic shastric knowledge?

It's obvious that the author of such nonsense is a mental speculator who thinks he can manufacture shastra in his (or her) conditioned mind.

The moderators should tag such nonsense as mental speculation, so that innocent newcomers are not misled by this kind of ridiculous nonsense speculation.

The shastra never mentions anything about nitya-siddhas having non-Krishna conscious dreams.

It's just ignorant and stupid to post such crazy imaginations.

It should not be allowed.

Debate should be allowed from shastric perspectives, not from mental concoctions.

Real debate in the Vaishnava circles does not include mental speculation as true debate.

It must have basis in shastra.

The above posts of the mental speculator are mental concoctions that are being presented as legitimate knowledge.

I've never read such arrogent self rightious load of dribble from Guruvani, Who ever you are, your sentimental understandings certainly DO NOT UNDRSTAND THE TEACHINGS OF HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI

TRY AND GET OFF YOUR ARROGENT HORSE AND ECCEPT WHAT SRILA PRABHPADA HAS SAID!!

---SRILA PRABHUPADA -"We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the ‘seen’ disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position".

---SRILA PRABHUPADA - "Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there".

---SRILA PRABHUPADA - "The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna and there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently in the material world (mahat-tattva).”

Srila Prabhupada sets up a very strong identity between the original state and the final state of liberation.

SRILA PRABHUPADA - "we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position. There are two states. The free state (goloka) and the covered state (mahat-tattva). The free state is with Krsna.”

There is no suggestion that the original state is “fallen.” There is also no suggestion of an original free state that is different from the final free state.

---SRILA PRABHUPADA - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. JUST LIKE IN A DREAM we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed".

The idea that we were always conditioned is directly rejected. Srila Prabhupada says, “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport.”

---SRILA PRABHUPADA - So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position".

---SRILA PRABHUPADA - "So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming and returns back home, back to God, back to serving Krishna".

Here Srila Prabhupada directly compares the history of the souls in this material world with the history of Jaya and Vijaya. He speaks of “keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord.”

---SRILA PRABHUPADA - Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased; better to spend time curing the disease.

Here Srila Prabhupada directly rejects the idea that the conditioned soul was originally in the brahmajyoti AND SAYS OUR CONDITION IN THE MATERIAL CREATION OR MAHAT-TATTVA IS JUST LIKE DREAMING.

It's Vigraha who has the correct understanding, but it is obvious you and many others CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUE TEACHINGS OF SRILA PRABUPADA.

theist · April 30, 2007

there is no ISKCON side vs. GM side.
There is only the shastric side and all else is imaginations.

And I wouldn't be so quick to appoint oneself as the sole arbitor of who has the correct shastric conclusion. Neither you or I Guruvani even know who we are let alone much else. I don't accept bluffs from the non-realized when they try to present themselves as the authority on what is the proper siddhanta or not. Shastra says we are all spiritualsoul. Have you realized that? I have not. Therefore why should I take myself or any other illusioned being as having the last word on such deep subjects as the one on this thread?

As I have said I consider this a basically useless argument that is unresolvable through debate but devotees have the right to discussed it or debate it as they wish.

These boards are moderated and do not need you or I to appoint ourselves the censors of what devotees may or may not speak about. That is tantamount to squelching the spirit of inquiry. The spirit of inquiry from the proper source is the process recommended in the Bhagavad-gita & Srimad Bhagavatam as the way to spiritual realization.

We are all still practicing and learning how to inquire properly. We are quite far from the standard that Arjuna and Sukadeva Gosvami left as examples for us.

If someone is not being offensive but merely holds a different opinion then we can listen or not but we have no right to censor them.

theist · April 30, 2007

TRANSLATION
Austerity of speech consists in speaking truthfully and beneficially and in avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the Vedas regularly.

PURPORT

One should not speak in such a way as to agitate the minds of others. Of course, when a teacher speaks, he can speak the truth for the instruction of his students, but such a teacher should not speak to others who are not his students if he will agitate their minds. This is penance as far as talking is concerned. Besides that, one should not talk nonsense. When speaking in spiritual circles, one's statements mustbe upheld by the scriptures. One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying. At the same time, such talk should be very pleasurable to the ear. By such discussions, one may derive the highest benefit and elevate human society. There is a limitless stock of Vedic literature, and one should study this. This is called penance of speech.

I will leave this conversation with reminding both you and Guruvani that we are not in the position here of being guru's to the other participants. Telling someone that they have no right to speak an opinion of sastra that they hold as truth just because you see it differently, on a public forum no less, is not our right.

Another thing you both seem to miss is that they are also quoting sastra. Both sides are quoting sastra.

I have said my piece. This censorship nonsense is a real sore point with me. It's a major reason I choose to remain unaffiliated in my search for the Lord.

Hare Krsna

theist · April 30, 2007

Of course, it is up to the devotee how serious he or she takes Guru and Krishna's instructions, nobody will stop anyone from engaging in useless mental speculation. Mental speculation does not equal spiritual discussions.

That is my point. No one has a right to censor someone else unless they have accepted you as their guru. And please I hope you are not postering yourself as one who never engages in mental speculation and only engages in full blown krsna-katha.

Another point is the differentiation between mental speculation and philosophical speculation. Unless one engages in philosophical speculation just how will one formulate relevant questions to place before their guru?

If one does not know the difference between these two different activites of the mental body he is likely to just become a pawn in someone elses religious plan, "Don't think just do what you are told prabhu." This is also called being institutionalized.

April 30, 2007

And I wouldn't be so quick to appoint oneself as the sole arbitor of who has the correct shastric conclusion. Neither you or I Guruvani even know who we are let alone much else. I don't accept bluffs from the non-realized when they try to present themselves as the authority on what is the proper siddhanta or not. Shastra says we are all spiritualsoul. Have you realized that? I have not. Therefore why should I take myself or any other illusioned being as having the last word on such deep subjects as the one on this thread?

As I have said I consider this a basically useless argument that is unresolvable through debate but devotees have the right to discussed it or debate it as they wish.

These boards are moderated and do not need you or I to appoint ourselves the censors of what devotees may or may not speak about. That is tantamount to squelching the spirit of inquiry. The spirit of inquiry from the proper source is the process recommended in the Bhagavad-gita & Srimad Bhagavatam as the way to spiritual realization.

We are all still practicing and learning how to inquire properly. We are quite far from the standard that Arjuna and Sukadeva Gosvami left as examples for us.

If someone is not being offensive but merely holds a different opinion then we can listen or not but we have no right to censor them.

Very Well written theist, your humble understanding once again gives insight and the belief to us all that such a deep subject matter can only be understood as we individually progress in our Krishna Consciousness. I can only speak for myself, but for me Srla Prabhupada's books, letters and tapes are the bases of my understanding and realizations of Srila Prabhupada's teachings. Many years ago (1972) I travelled on a Sankirtan Bus With Madhuvisa (then Swami) and we discussed this subject during many Srimad Bhagavatm classes, I remember Madhuvisa quoting Prabhupada and saying ' We are already with Krishna but presently we are in a dreaming state where we have forgotten Krishna'.

I was cleaning the Temple room in the Sydney in early 1973, as I was cleaning the walls down I took the paintings of the Panca-tattva and Radha and Krishna down and placed them on the steep of Srila Prabhupada's Vysa sign

Very Well written theist, your humble understanding once again gives insight and the to us all that such a deep subject matter can only be understood as we individually progress in our Krishna Consciousness. I can only speak for myself, but for me Srla Prabhupada's books, letters and tapes are the bases of my understanding and realizations of Srila Prabhupada's teachings. Many years ago (1972) I travelled on a Sankirtan Bus With Madhuvisa (then Swami) and we discussed this subject during many Srimad Bhagavatm classes, I remember Madhuvisa quoting Prabhupada and saying ' We are already with Krishna but presently we are in a dreaming state where we have forgotten Krishna'.

I was once cleaning the Temple room in the Sydney in early 1973, as I was cleaning the walls down I took the paintings of the Panca-tattva and Radha and Krishna down and placed them on the step of Srila Prabhupada's Vysa sign.( at the feet of Srla Prabhupada) because I did not want to put the painting on the floor. As I was cleaning to my surprise Srila Prabhupada came in and looked at the Vysa sign laughing and laughing and laughing. Then said “ (referring to himself) I sit at the feet of Krishna and Lord Caitanya, when you go back to Krishna, back to Goloka, you will understand,”

Srila Prabhupada had tears in his eyes, he then started chanting japa looking at the beautiful painting of the Panca tattva and Radha and Krishna. (The curtains to the Dieties were closed) Everyone else was out on Sankirtan, except for the few devotees in the Kitchen. So there I was with Srila Prabhupada and no one else around in the Temple room. Srila Prabhupada said, after chanting for a few minutes, Radha and Krishna as Lord Caitanya is very nice and so attractive, he the laughed again and again, what he was seeing I certainly could not see, then in a humble chastising mood Prabhupada said ‘Now you can put the paintings back on the wall and always remember that I am always at the feet of Radha and Krishna, one day you will also wake up from this miserable world and also see that Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes, now chant Hare Krishna with me”

For the next ten minutes we both chanted japa and then he payed his obeisances to Radha and Krishna and went back to his room. As a young 20 year old the significance of his mercy was taken for granted. It was only thirty years later I began to realize how significant my association with Srila Prabhupada was, for me I always believed we were once with Krishna.

muralidhar_das · April 30, 2007

Haribol,

fallen SOUL, who are you?

I was also in the Sydney and Melbourne temples in the same period. I also travelled on the bus. Do you remember how Ram Prashad, Citta, Caru, Dwaip, and others were there? 73 - that was Double Bay? Right?

April 30, 2007

Haribol,

fallen SOUL, who are you?

I was also in the Sydney and Melbourne temples in the same period. I also travelled on the bus. Do you remember how Ram Prashad, Citta, Caru, Dwaip, and others were there? 73 - that was Double Bay? Right?

Hare Krishna Prabhu

It was at 83 Hereford street Gleb, near the Sydney Uni. Madhuvisa Swami, Yaso, Balarama, Citta, Caru, Dwaip, Gaura, Atri devi-dasi Ambika devi-dasi Sukla devi-dasi, Madhuvisa Swami and me and others I cannot remember. There were 14 of us on the double Decker Bus, the Brahmacari quarters were down stairs and the brahmatrinis quarters were up stairs. The trip went up north in April 1972, 35 years ago this month, great memories and great Kirtans. At Karanda Madhuvisa lead a blissful kirtan through the hippie community and hundreds joined in chanting Hare Krishna and dancing. Devotees before this too had never visited every place we went. We also celebrated Janmastami up there at a Buddhist colony; we got them all chanting Hare Krishna with hundreds of hippies. The following day was Vysa-puj and Madhuvisa had this lit candle under Srila Prabhupada’s photo, the aura from that photo permeated the entire bus with an amazing mood of reverence and Krishna Consciousness. They were special days and there was a special innocence about those days, there was no hanky panky going on in those early years, everyone was very sincere, very dedicated, very attached to Prabhupada. In those early years we only ate offerings to the Dieties and absolutely nothing else (A photo of the Panca-tattva with a Photo of Prabhupada at their feet), no-one even dreamed of eating anything unprepared by devotees or even drink soft drinks, those years were extraordinary. Dwaip cooked up beautiful offers to Srila Prabhupada while Citta, Gaura and Balarama were the Bus Drivers and Yaso was the inquisitive philosopher, actually we all were. Many times we discussed the origins of the jiva that lead to the famous “Crow-and-Tal-Fruit Logic” letter Srila Prabupada sent to his inquisitive Australian devotees.

The tal-fruit tree is the palmyra palm.

Always with Krishna Brahma-sayujya and Krishna lila—both may be possible. But when you came down from Brahma-sayujya or when you came down from Krishna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krishna, and servant of Krishna means in Krishna lila. Directly or indirectly, we are always serving Krishna's lila, even in dream. Just as we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krishna lila? The cloud may be there—the sky may become very gray and dim—but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Similarly, because I am part and parcel of Krishna, I am always connected with Krishna. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krishna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative. Awake or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krishna. Cause and effect are both Krishna. For example, cotton becomes thread, and thread becomes cloth. Still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krishna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krishna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krishna's lila. But we see differences under different conditions. To give another example: In the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflected, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady; one is clear and fixed. Except when we are in Krishna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly; therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krishna. Material existence is impersonal because [in that existence] my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased. And we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there—take it and enjoy. That is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change [anything]; He is the cause of all causes. Now don't waste your time with this kaka-taliya-nyaya, "crow-and-tal-fruit logic."

April 30, 2007

One major complication in this discussion is that certain conclusions must be avoided in order to avoid Vaishnava-aparadha.

Everyone agrees that a nitya-siddha can descend to this world directly from Goloka Vrindavana. Even those who say most of us originated from the tatastha region will accept this point.

Since some devotees descend from Goloka, I commit offense if I say any particular devotee descended from the tatastha region. However, since most devotees descend from the tatastha region, I cannot avoid the philosophical truth of this statement.

So the "correct" statement is not very useful, as I will inevitably commit offenses if I actually apply it.

Guruvani · April 30, 2007

Still, there is no shastric evidence to support the "prabhupada said".

The "Prabhupada said" we fell from goloka is not supported with shastric evidence.

Srila Prabhupada said many things at many times depending upon the audience. His preaching tactics were aimed at acheiving a certain result.

If you read his books, you will find that he contradicts these "Prabhupada said" (to some pea-brained neophyte).

In the books of Srila Prabhupada these "Prabhupada said" quotes don't hold up.

There is no support for this fall of the jiva theory in shastra.

It was a preaching device Srila Prabhupada employed.

In his books he does not confirm the fall from Goloka theory and in fact he cleary stated in his books that a nitya siddha can never fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka.

You can't find anything in the books to support this fall from Goloka fantasty. All you can dig up is conversational statements Srila Prabhupada made a certain times to certain people, but it is not supported in his books.

In the books the fall from Goloka is not supported. It is cleary rejected.

So, go figure.

I 'll take the books over conversational statements if indeed there is any conflict between the two.

Srila Prabhupada writes in the purport of the Seventh Canto, Chapter 1 (Text 35), "Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha." Jaya and Vijaya had a desire to please the Lord. All the associates of the Lord have only one desire: to give Him pleasure.

So, Srila Prabhupada rejects the fall from Goloka theory in his books and I prefer to accept that over conversational statements to neophytes who might not be able to understand the complexities of the marginal energy.

April 30, 2007

Consider this, that when the fallen dreaming nitya-siddha's secondary consciousness returns to his bodily position and full potential, he would find himself in the exact same position due to the absence of the time factor having any influence of past or future in eternity. So once returned from the mahat-tattva, it could be said he never left just like when a light is on darkness does not exist and does not exist while the light is on.

This just appears to be a situation in which our conditioned by space/time logic may fail us.

Inspired insight from theist

“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

“Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.” Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31

“It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, page 323.

“By the grace of God, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere -- either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-caritamrita , Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

Of course, there is a verse in the Bhagavad-gita that appears to buttress the “no-fall” siddhanta:

“That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.” Bhagavad-gita 15.6

Srila Prabhupada further elaborates on this important verse:

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No! There is possibility. . . Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 San Francisco, February 18, 1967

As Srila Prabhupada writes, once one has experienced the misery of the material world, he keeps perfect intelligence to not misuse his free will again. It is these experienced souls who will never return or fall from Vaikuntha.

Acyutananda: .....But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns."

Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.

Acyutananda: He can return.

Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Morning Walk--February 19, 1976, Mayapura

There have been assertions by the “no fall” camp that origination from the spiritual world is not supported in Vedic scriptures. From the following lecture, Srila Prabhupada again cites the verse from Prema Vivarta explaining the cause of the living entities original fall to the material world:

Acyutananda: What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Prema-vivarta:

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare

nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

As soon as... We are eternal servant of Krsna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Because, Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krsna—so Krsna has got full independence, but we are minute. Therefore, we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krsna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth. Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2 Hyderabad, April 11, 1975

To renovate something means to restore it to its original status. In that context, there is this verse from the Srimad Bhagavatam:

“Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.” Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31

Support for the idea of origin in the spiritual world has also been attributed to an English translation of Prema-pradipa by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, as well as an English translation of Sri Caitanya’s Teachings by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada:

“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

“It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, page 323.

The previous acaryas were not recorded on modern technological equipment; all we have are English translations of their writings. In an apparent attempt to minimize some of Srila Prabhupada’s statements, various adherents of “no fall” minimize Srila Prabhupada’s conversations and lectures, alleging that they do not carry the same weight as his books or the Vedic shastras. It is not that a pure devotee somehow changes his conclusions from one platform or medium to another; such thinking is actually offensive. Sri Krishna has sent his pure devotee to deliver us and rectify our mistaken beliefs. He is competent to give final judgment on this issue of the origination of the jiva.

“Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence--as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more--and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.” Letter to Upendra, 10-27-69 OM TAT SAT

By Kailasa Candra dasa

The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

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