The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

[Yofu]

There had been much debate about Srila Prabhupada's original successors. Some believe he did appoint them and some believe he didn't appoint them.

 

Now imagine that you are one of those original young sucessors, and you want and need others to recongise you as a pure devotee or guru. At fist everyone starts to worship you as good as God. You start giving classes and say that the jiva was originally with Krsna in the spiritul world, because Srila Prabhupada said so in this classes.

 

Then someone goes to other Vaisnavas in India and learns that the jiva was never with Krishna. That person comes back to the West and tells other what he had learned. What do you, a pure devotee and Guru, do about this upstart?

 

Firstly, you condemn the upstart, and the upstart's Guru. Secondly, ban him and others like him then you meet with your other successor guru friends and issue whole society edicts telling everyone that Srila Prabhupada is the only way and anyone who doubts you doubts Srila Prabhupada.

 

Still, more devotees learn that the jiva didn't fall from the spiritual world. The issue becomes a major issue. Your position as a guru is under threat. you are thinking "If my disciples think I'm wrong about jiva tattva then they will reject me." You and other gurus look to Srila Prabhupada's lectures and find quotes to bolster your views. You breathe a sign of relief.

 

Still more devotees question the fall theory by pointing out that Srila Prabhupada's books clearly state that the jiva cannot from the spiritual world. Many of your original co-successor's fall down, only to be replaced by others. You need the fall theory to be believed. You and your co-successors wish the issue would go away.

 

Then you have the bright idea of publishing a book about the fall theory, still the issue refuses to go away. Even though, other acaryas state that the jiva doesn't fall you, in a final attempt to bolster the fall theory, play the Srila-Prabhupada-is-the-only-way card to hide the flaws and illogic of the fall theory. Devotees in your society accept the idea to show their loyality to Srila Prabhupada. To question you is tyo question Srila Prabhupada.

 

Your guruship is maintained and many devotees have excepted the fall theory. The fall theory now has a life of it's own, with newer and newer developments within the philosophy.

 

 

I wonder if this could happen in real life?

[Guruvani]

The idea that billions of nitya-siddha parshadas of the Lord are falling like flies by the billions of trillions from Goloka or Vaikuntha is absurd.

 

If there are trillions upon trillions of pure devotees of Krishna falling down from lila with Krishna in Goloka, then what is the perfection of the spiritual world?

Where is the protection of Krishna that Krishna has promised his pure devotees?

Maya cannot touch or enter the spiritual world. That is the shastric siddhanta.

If trillions upon trillions of pure devotees are falling in maya in Goloka and Vaikuntha, then that means there is MAYA in Goloka.

There is no MAYA in Goloka.

There is no chance to fall into maya in Goloka if maya cannot enter the spiritual world.

 

It's bizarre that anyone could say that billions of nitya-siddha parshadas of Krishna are falling in maya and taking birth in the material world.

 

It goes against everything the shastra says about the spiritual world.

It goes against everything the shastra says about maya not having any existence or influence in the spiritual world.

 

If maya is influencing nitya-siddhas to fall from Goloka, then the shastric statements that maya has no influence or existence in the spiritual world are all false.

 

Maya has no influence and no existence in the spiritual world.

That is the shastric version.

 

Maya can only effect and attract jivas of the marginal realm.

Maya cannot enter the spiritual world and attract souls from there.

 

Maya woulnd't dare try to enter the spiritual world and tempt jivas there.

[Guest guest]

 

The idea that billions of nitya-siddha parshadas of the Lord are falling like flies by the billions of trillions from Goloka or Vaikuntha is absurd.

 

If there are trillions upon trillions of pure devotees of Krishna falling down from lila with Krishna in Goloka, then what is the perfection of the spiritual world?

Where is the protection of Krishna that Krishna has promised his pure devotees?

Maya cannot touch or enter the spiritual world. That is the shastric siddhanta.

If trillions upon trillions of pure devotees are falling in maya in Goloka and Vaikuntha, then that means there is MAYA in Goloka.

There is no MAYA in Goloka.

There is no chance to fall into maya in Goloka if maya cannot enter the spiritual world.

 

It's bizarre that anyone could say that billions of nitya-siddha parshadas of Krishna are falling in maya and taking birth in the material world.

 

It goes against everything the shastra says about the spiritual world.

It goes against everything the shastra says about maya not having any existence or influence in the spiritual world.

 

If maya is influencing nitya-siddhas to fall from Goloka, then the shastric statements that maya has no influence or existence in the spiritual world are all false.

 

Maya has no influence and no existence in the spiritual world.

That is the shastric version.

 

Maya can only effect and attract jivas of the marginal realm.

Maya cannot enter the spiritual world and attract souls from there.

 

Maya woulnd't dare try to enter the spiritual world and tempt jivas there.

 

The golden rule is to remember Krishna and never forget Him

 

In our present condition we become afraid that we still have the choice (always) in Goloka to leave or stay in Goloka and never ever again forget Krishna

 

The simple answer for us is to never again leave Krishna and never ever forget Krishna in our every thought and deed.

 

Do you think just because we re-awaken our 'OLD' Krishna Consciousness, we loose the marginal aspect (choose) of our consciousness? That choose is there also to forever expand and increase our love or service to Krishna.

 

If we want to stay with Krishna as our original rasa body, we must WANT to stay with beautiful Krishna in all our dreams, thoughts, deeds etc, otherwise we CAN AGAIN FALL from our rasa body.

 

Fortunately only 1/4 of marginal vigraha devotee's foolishly choose to make the 'conscious non-Krishna conscious' to plunge into the mahat-tattva, while most of those who return from the mahat-tattva learn their lesson, that is, AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT CHOOSE SOMETHING ELSE OTHER THAN KRISHNA and activate that dreaded secondary non-Krishna conscious self centered dream state.

 

We know that a hot stove will burn our hand so we don't foolishly put our hand on a hot stove, similarly if we ALWAYS remember Krishna, then our conscious will always be with Krishna as our rasa body and that secondary consciousness will not exist, just like darkness can not exist in the presents of light.

 

Only by always remembering beautiful Krishna, can He protect us and dispel the secondary jiva-tattva consciousness.

 

In fact such non-Krishna consciousness can never exist in Goloka. As soon as one stops being Krishna Conscious, we are transferred, as a secondary consciousness phenomenon (JIVA-BHUTAH) to the mahat-tattva.

 

There has to be the ETERNAL endeavor by us to stay with Krishna's wonderful pastimes by CHOOSING TO SURRENDER TO HIM UNCONDITIONALLY, we are not robots, we don't loose our individuality and ability to choose when we return back home to Goloka. ‘Ah. now I’m relieved I’m back with Krishna’ - No its not like that, we all must always remember Krishna and never forget Him, only then will He always protect His devotee's so they will never again fall down or perish under the weight of illusionary dreams of self importance within the mahat-tattva.

 

Isn’t this the meaning of being a Vaishnava or devotee of Krishna – to always remember Him and never forget Him?

 

The fall from God Kingdom is as a secondary manifestation of dreaming consciousness only manifesting within the sub-conscious mind of ones perpetual Spiritual devotional bodily self, which further only exists when one is bereft of Krishna consciousness.

 

Such non-Krishna conscious dreams only come into a temporary existence when they enter the mahat-tattva and are given form by Maha-Vishnu. (There is always choice to dream of Krishna or dream of self importance, adoration, worship, fame and being master)

 

We all have an original KRISHNA conscious body however, we can only be aware of such a body when we are selflessly engaged in loving devotion to God who is known as Krishna in his Supreme Person and lives eternally with His loving devotees (marginal personalities) and unlimited expansions, all playing different roles, in the uninterrupted ambiance of His beautiful Goloka-Vrndavana planet.

 

This Divine all-attractive planet exists in the transcendental universe or spiritual sky beyond time and space, past and future. It is a blissful gorgeous imperishable universe that is eternally set in the present as the Brahma-Samhita teaches us.

 

The constitutional nature of the jiva or soul in its full potential of adoring non-envious expression of full consciousness is embodied as a eternal Krishna Conscious bodily form and engaged in loving noble unconditional service to Krishna and His pure devotees. This wonderful blissful place in Goloka is the soul’s (vigraha devotee’s) original constitution.

 

This means the full constitution of the marginal living entity is further made complete with free will, individuality and identity manifesting as a perpetual bodily form.

 

All jiva-souls, or Krishna’s marginal potency are manifested as that perpetual beautiful attractive youthful bodily form, serving the wonderful object of their loving service, Krishna the Lord and Master of all and protector of His devotee’s who always serve and remember Him, and provider to His dreaming-devotee’s who choose not to remember Him and transferred to within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the Mahat-tattva.

 

On the other hand, how are we to understand the word original when there was no beginning to the Spiritual Sky of Goloka-Vrndavana and the subordinate unending perpetual attractive Vaikuntha planets surrounding that wonderful central creation of Krishna?

 

In the very simplest terms, the Creation is actually divided in the higher universe that covers three quarters of the creation and the lower universe that covers ¼ of creation and the impersonal space between the two where ones secondary consciousness manifests as its third conscious state called tatastha (inactive or dreamless).

 

The difference between the three is significant; one is imperishable beyond time and space, where the past and future do not exist due to the everlasting present, while the second is embodied in perishable bodies controlled by time, past, present, future, decay, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age and death, and the third is the impersonal escape from those frustrating vessels if one still continues to deny the existence of their rasa body in Goloka.

 

The lower universe or mahat-tattva, appears as a dark phenomenal cloud in one corner of the Spiritual sky creation (The entire Spiritual Sky is also known as the Brahmajyoti

 

The golden rule is to remember Krishna and never forget Him

[Gaurasundara]

 

(Quoting Srila Prabhupada) Friendship should be cemented between persons with mutual interests and understanding. Such persons are said to be sva jati, “of the same caste.”

I liked this part.

[Devarsirat]

we should understand that in His letters and classes Srila Prabhupada may has said that we have been with Krishna, but in His books there is no such quote.

 

Srila Prabhupada was teaching according to time and circumstance like our parents may have told us that a storch came and delivered us, but they also expect us as we get older to understand the reality of things.

 

There are abundant quotes of Prabhupada's books stating that Vaikuntha is a place from where there is no fall down. Please notice the following:

 

SB 3.16.26

PURPORT

'The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.'

 

SB 5.11.12

PURPORT

'This ordinary living being is of two kinds -- nitya-baddha or

nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally

liberated. The eternally liberated living beings, are in the Vaikuntha

jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material

world.'

 

SB 3.25.29

PURPORT

'Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the

spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one

is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the

Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from

the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of

meditation.'

 

Madhya-lila 22.14-15

PURPORT

'The living entities are divided into two categories the eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. Those who are ever-liberated never come in contact with maya, the external energy. The ever-conditioned are always under the clutches of the external energy.

 

Krishna Book, Chapter 28: Releasing Nanda Maharaja from the clutches of Varuna (p. 186)

'The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly.'

 

SB 7.1.34

TRANSLATION

'Maharaja Yudhisthira inquired: "What kind of great curse could affect even liberated vishnu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse even the Lord's associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this."

 

PURPORT

In Bhagavad-gita (8.16) the Lord clearly states, mam upetya tu

kaunteya punar janma na vidyate: one who is purified of material

contamination and returns home, back to Godhead, does not return to

this material world. Elsewhere in Bhagavad-gita (4.9) Krishna says:

 

janma karma ca me divyam

evam yo vetti tattvatah

tyaktva deham punar janma

naiti mam eti so 'rjuna

 

"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and

activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in

this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Maharaja

Yudhisthira, therefore, was surprised that a pure devotee could return

to this material world. This is certainly a very important question.'

 

SB 7.1.35

TRANSLATION

'The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuntha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses, or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.

 

PURPORT

Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact

that no one falls from Vaikuntha.'

 

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature?

 

Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly like deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. (Srila Prabhupada letter to Jagadish, 1970)

 

hope this helps, sometimes Srila Prabhupada says things to accomodate but He never says that the final comclusion is that we have been with Krishna in His lila or sport, He states

 

SB 3.16.26

PURPORT

'The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.'

 

SB 5.11.12

PURPORT

'This ordinary living being is of two kinds -- nitya-baddha or

nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally

liberated. The eternally liberated living beings, are in the Vaikuntha

jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material

world.'

 

books are the basics, preaching is the essence

[Gaurasundara]

What about this?

 

 

The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world. Even while he is in that position, the Lord remains with him as the Supersoul, his intimate friend. Because of his forgetfulness, the living entity does not know that the Supreme Lord is accompanying him as the Supersoul. In this way the living entity remains conditioned in each and every millennium. Although the Lord follows him as a friend, the living entity, because of forgetful material existence, does not recognize Him.

(SB 4.28.54)

 

How does this jive with the explanations that "books are higher than letters/conversations"? I've heard a lot of back-and-forth but I'm always interested in reactions and explanations to Prabhupada's purport to SB as quoted above. This is in his books.

 

I personally don't care anyway. I accept the orthodox Vedantic position that jivas never fall but it is Crow-and-tal-fruit logic: Whether I fell or not, the fact is I'm nowhere so I'm working to get to Krishna.

[Guruvani]

SB 1. 2 15 purport,

 

Contact of the spiritual spark with material elements creates a knot which must be cut if one wants to be liberated from the action and reactions of fruitive work

Duh, there are no material elements in the spiritual world for a soul to come in contact with.

Contact with material elements can only occur from the within the Mahat Tattva - not from within Goloka.

 

The spiritual SPARK comes in contact with material elements in the Mahat Tattva. That is not possible from Goloka.

[theist]

 

there is no ISKCON side vs. GM side.

There is only the shastric side and all else is imaginations.

 

Yes but both groups claim to have the pure realization and see the other as being engaged in mental speculation on this topic. A topic I want to point out yet again that Srila Prabhupada called a waste of time. This fact should be deeply considered especially by those who claim to be representing his views on the matter.

[Guest guest]

 

we should understand that in His letters and classes Srila Prabhupada may has said that we have been with Krishna, but in His books there is no such quote.

 

Srila Prabhupada was teaching according to time and circumstance like our parents may have told us that a storch came and delivered us, but they also expect us as we get older to understand the reality of things.

 

Yes, stork stories are for little kids, and little kids are expected to eventually grow up and stop quoting their father's fairy tales as absolute truth.

 

When grown up kids insist on re-writing Vaishnava siddhanta to fit the fairy tales they have heard from their father when they were little, they risk the ridicule of the entire Vaishnava community. The kids may yell: "Aparadha!" to the Vaishnavas who try to correct them, but THE APARADHA IS ENTIRELY THEIR OWN.

 

When we learn from Bhagavad Gita that the soul resides in the heart of the living entity, the kids say that the souls actually sleeps under some bush in Vaikuntha...

[theist]

 

What about this?

 

(SB 4.28.54)

 

How does this jive with the explanations that "books are higher than letters/conversations"? I've heard a lot of back-and-forth but I'm always interested in reactions and explanations to Prabhupada's purport to SB as quoted above. This is in his books.

 

I personally don't care anyway. I accept the orthodox Vedantic position that jivas never fall but it is Crow-and-tal-fruit logic: Whether I fell or not, the fact is I'm nowhere so I'm working to get to Krishna.

 

Thank You. I lean somewhat in the other direction than the orthodox vedantic position but still remain unrealized in the matter. I also will wait for Krsna to show me the full truth of the matter and not wrack my little brain over this Crow and Tal fruit debate.

 

At the same time I am happy to see souls debate such topics as this vs. all the other topics that could occupy the mind. Souls will ome to see the fultility of it in their own way and time.

[Guruvani]

 

What about this?

 

(SB 4.28.54)

 

How does this jive with the explanations that "books are higher than letters/conversations"? I've heard a lot of back-and-forth but I'm always interested in reactions and explanations to Prabhupada's purport to SB as quoted above. This is in his books.

 

I personally don't care anyway. I accept the orthodox Vedantic position that jivas never fall but it is Crow-and-tal-fruit logic: Whether I fell or not, the fact is I'm nowhere so I'm working to get to Krishna.

I think the operative word in that statement by Srila Prabhupada is "PEACEFULLY". Shanti means peace and is related to shanta and shanta-rasa.

 

So, what Srila Prabhupada is saying about living "PEACEFULLY" with Krishna in the spiritual word means the living entities existed in the spiritual world in shanta-rasa, which is a neutral stage and has sometimes not been included in the range of having an actual relationship with Krishna in devotional service.

Some living entities in shanta-rasa are neither averse or attracted to Krishna. They exist in a state of limbo where they maintain some equilibrium, yet they are not protected by actually engaging in positive devotional service.

 

Krishna has an effulgence even in Goloka.

That effuglence of Krishna contains unlimited spiritual sparks.

The spiritual sparks in the effuglence of Krishna are situated in Shanta-rasa.

 

When Krishna expands himself as Vishnu and impregnates these living entities into the mahat-tattva they become subject to the influence of maya and then many of them fall down.

 

There are three aspects of Godhead; Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan.

 

The spiritual sparks are coming from the Brahman.

[Guest guest]

Well, another endless discussion that will never be solved. So, what does Lord Brahma do when he is faced with the impossible. Lord Siva advises him, "destroy your anger, and look at the humans in a different way."

 

What a great lesson. Lets look at this issue in another way, get rid of the paradigm that makes us so uneasy, the paradigm being "FALL".

 

The word fall has negative meaning. The nitya siddhas are free to to whatever they want, their desires are not tinged with material desire, so everything from them has no potential for fall down. Why did someone take birth in a muslim family, be raised to be a perfect muslim, become a muslim king, develop real hatred for anything "hindu", and legislate laws against the practice of Harinam. Did the Kazi get converted, or is this person a nitya siddha descendent who play-acts in a certain way to enhance the road show called the Samkirtana Movement.

 

Ill do it, Ill do it. This is what the associates all say when assignments are given. What seems like falling has nothing to do with nitya siddhas, because there is no difference between the material world and the spiritual world.

 

We are of spiritual esswence, when we say "we", we speak of the actual self. We came from somewhere way back when when forgetfulness grabbed hold. Aside from the buzzes and the prabhupada says, listen to his first recording describing the mahamantra "As I have explained on the cover of the record album...". There, originally, Srila Prabhupada describes our position, and says that somehow we have forgotten.

 

Lets have this discussion without the paradigm of fall-down. That is so churchian anyway, heaven hell, angel devil. Vaisnavism is not about mundane placement anyway, a tool the materialist uses to control others. High low, yes no, duality.

 

Jaya and Vijaya would rather be demons threee times than demigods seven times, because they knew and remembered anyway. The forgetfulness is arranged by Krsna. Kumaras dont go around cursing folks anyway, this is also to be considered in all of this.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

"Hare Krishna and dandavats.

 

If you'll please allow me to post a comment on the following quote:

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Products of the group think as I think or don't think at all school of spiritual investigation I see. Both sides have it. The Iskcon side and the GM side. Explore something outside of their established perimeters and you are a heretic. Such frightened minds are not fit for the rigors of real spiritual inquiry I don't care how many slokas they memorize. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

 

"First try to establish if that so-called 'thing outside of established perimeters' is going to add something valuable to your spiritual life.

Second, what is the value of your spiritual path and does it constitute real spiritual inquiry? Let's suppose your path is Krishna consciousness and that you concur it constitutes real spiritual inquiry. Have you seen anything superior to it? If not, then where is the need to look outside of it? Narrowminded? "

 

I never said or indicated in anyway looking outside of the path of Krsna consciousness. I clearly referred to certain groups that purport to have the real meaning of the shastra and therefore feel it is their responsibility to silence any rethinking or dissent on the established group conclusion. THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION TO THE IDEA OF LOOKING OUTSIDE THE KRSNA CONSCIOUS PATH. IMO the ability to freely question any and all doctrines or beliefs handed down to us by present acaryas as well as "old authors" (Bhaktivinode) in the form of shastra IS the Krsna path. Again I cite the example of Arjuna and Pariksit who expressed their doubts to Krsna and Sukadeva Gosvami. While avoiding the cynics mentality they pressed on for full resolution of the doubts in their minds. They did not remain silent and pretended to believe just because of who they were hearing from.

 

Airplanes and the instructions on how to fly them have been passed down from previous generations but ultimately we have to pilot our own plane. To do so safely one must not be harboring any doubts as to how things really work. It's not enough to have an offical connection with any group and to just to whatever the group has to say on any one specific issue.

 

Supersoul is guiding and enlightening everyone. All we must do is strengthen the idea of each individual souls responsibility deeply and sincerely inquire into the nature of the Absolute truth. This guaruntees success for, "Seek and ye shall find."

 

We must protect and project an atmosphere of sincere and open inquiry.

[Guruvani]

The fact is that there is no maya in Goloka to become influenced by.

Living entities get influenced by maya from within the Mahat Tattva.

 

So, the fall from Goloka theory is a nursery rhyme for spiritual babies still in diapers.

 

When a baby grows up, then the nursery ryhmes are not necessary anymore.

 

There is no harm in the fall from Goloka myth.

It serves a purpose that tries to prevent neophyte devotees from becoming mayavadis.

 

But, shastra does not support the fall from goloka myth.

Shastra explains the Lord Vishnu glances over prakriti and impregnates prakriti with limitless spiritual sparks.

That is how we got in the material world.

We were impregnated here by Lord Vishnu.

We didn't fall from Goloka.

That is a fairytale for children.

 

Now, don't go out and become mayavadis, because that is why Srila Prabhupada told his fall from Goloka fairytale to his spiritual babies.

[Gaurasundara]

 

I think the operative word in that statement by Srila Prabhupada is "PEACEFULLY". Shanti means peace and is related to shanta and shanta-rasa.

 

So, what Srila Prabhupada is saying about living "PEACEFULLY" with Krishna in the spiritual word means the living entities existed in the spiritual world in shanta-rasa, which is a neutral stage and has sometimes not been included in the range of having an actual relationship with Krishna in devotional service.

Except that there is no santa-rasa in Goloka Vrindavan. There is santa-rasa in Vaikuntha and dasya-rasa too, so it all depends which area of "the spiritual world" you are discussing. Apart from that, intereting Srila Prabhupada's quote to apply only to those jivas who are supposedly in santa-rasa is a pretty big extraction of an interpretation, probably wouldn't hold any water as far as logic is concerned. The quote clearly refers to "living entities" and doesn't make any statement of any particular types of living entities. The whole quote is a summation of the "fall" doctrine that can be found in Prabhupada's books, and which circulates everywhere including in this discussion. It's a tough quote, I agree, which is why I said I was interested in hearing responses to that quote in Prabhupada's books.

 

 

Some living entities in shanta-rasa are neither averse or attracted to Krishna. They exist in a state of limbo where they maintain some equilibrium, yet they are not protected by actually engaging in positive devotional service.

There is no santa-rasa in Vrindavan, so this does not apply.

 

 

Krishna has an effulgence even in Goloka.

I'm not sure. If Krishna had a bright blaring effulgence in His "hometown" that nobody would be able to see Him, least of all His parents, cowherd friends, gopis, etc.

 

 

That effuglence of Krishna contains unlimited spiritual sparks.

The spiritual sparks in the effuglence of Krishna are situated in Shanta-rasa.

I'm not sure about this either, I'd love to hear scriptural quotes to back this up.

 

 

When Krishna expands himself as Vishnu and impregnates these living entities into the mahat-tattva they become subject to the influence of maya and then many of them fall down.

This would work well for one who believes that jivas do fall from the spiritual world. From the content of your previous posts I guess you are not a fan of this idea, so I am surprised with this example. The "impregnation" of the living entitites into the mahat-tattva is the "recycling" of those jivas who did not attain liberation in the previous kalpa. If the kalpa ends and a sizeable number of jivas have not attained liberation, they are merged into the body of Maha-Vishnu in a sleeping and dormant condition, waiting for the next cycle of creation to begin. When it does, these jivas are "impregnated" back into the new creation and act according to their inclinations. They were fallen to begin with and they will remain "fallen" until they get out of the vicious circle.

 

I suppose it's possible to describe this "sleeping within Maha-Vishnu" as "being with Krishna". Maybe that's where the whole controversy lies. The Vedanta also states that karma is beginningless, which is a very important assertion and is they key to this whole issue. Sorry to all for going off-track with the santa-rasa stuff but I am still interested to hear responses/explanations to SB 4.28.54, it does seem an unending controversy with both sides of the discussion being present in Srila Prabhupada's books. But as I say it is ultimately unimportant to me (subjective) as I would much rather concentrate on my own sadhana to reach Krishna, but siddhanta (objective) is important too for it's own reasons. Sorry if I offended anybody.

[Gaurasundara]

 

Thank You. I lean somewhat in the other direction than the orthodox vedantic position but still remain unrealized in the matter. I also will wait for Krsna to show me the full truth of the matter and not wrack my little brain over this Crow and Tal fruit debate.

You got a friend. I think it's a perfectly natural thing to feel a kinship with Krishna. After all, we are His eternal fragmental parts (BG 15.7), He is our eternal Father (BG 14.4) and of course He is present in our hearts (BG 18.61). "We are always with Krishna".

 

 

At the same time I am happy to see souls debate such topics as this vs. all the other topics that could occupy the mind. Souls will ome to see the fultility of it in their own way and time.

Yes I agree. There is definitely some benefit to discussing spiritual topics. Talks about Krishna are the life and soul of the Vaishnavas. The day that goes by without a thought or word about Krishna is a very bad day.

[Gaurasundara]

Actually, Theist prabhu, an issue like this may be slightly comedic in places. You can't help wondering how a person may feel in their hearts when reading discussions like this, who may then go on to think:

 

"I know I'm fallen, you don't have to rub it in."

[Guruvani]

 

Except that there is no santa-rasa in Goloka Vrindavan. There is santa-rasa in Vaikuntha and dasya-rasa too, so it all depends which area of "the spiritual world" you are discussing. Apart from that, intereting Srila Prabhupada's quote to apply only to those jivas who are supposedly in santa-rasa is a pretty big extraction of an interpretation, probably wouldn't hold any water as far as logic is concerned. The quote clearly refers to "living entities" and doesn't make any statement of any particular types of living entities. The whole quote is a summation of the "fall" doctrine that can be found in Prabhupada's books, and which circulates everywhere including in this discussion. It's a tough quote, I agree, which is why I said I was interested in hearing responses to that quote in Prabhupada's books.

 

There is no santa-rasa in Vrindavan, so this does not apply.

 

I'm not sure. If Krishna had a bright blaring effulgence in His "hometown" that nobody would be able to see Him, least of all His parents, cowherd friends, gopis, etc.

 

I'm not sure about this either, I'd love to hear scriptural quotes to back this up.

 

This would work well for one who believes that jivas do fall from the spiritual world. From the content of your previous posts I guess you are not a fan of this idea, so I am surprised with this example. The "impregnation" of the living entitites into the mahat-tattva is the "recycling" of those jivas who did not attain liberation in the previous kalpa. If the kalpa ends and a sizeable number of jivas have not attained liberation, they are merged into the body of Maha-Vishnu in a sleeping and dormant condition, waiting for the next cycle of creation to begin. When it does, these jivas are "impregnated" back into the new creation and act according to their inclinations. They were fallen to begin with and they will remain "fallen" until they get out of the vicious circle.

 

I suppose it's possible to describe this "sleeping within Maha-Vishnu" as "being with Krishna". Maybe that's where the whole controversy lies. The Vedanta also states that karma is beginningless, which is a very important assertion and is they key to this whole issue. Sorry to all for going off-track with the santa-rasa stuff but I am still interested to hear responses/explanations to SB 4.28.54, it does seem an unending controversy with both sides of the discussion being present in Srila Prabhupada's books. But as I say it is ultimately unimportant to me (subjective) as I would much rather concentrate on my own sadhana to reach Krishna, but siddhanta (objective) is important too for it's own reasons. Sorry if I offended anybody.

 

my reply:

 

In this material world we require sunlight and moonlight, but in the spiritual world there is no need of sunlight and moonlight because everything and everyone is effulgent. In krishna-līlā, Krishna stole butter, and the neighborhood friends of mother Yaśodā complained. Actually they were not complaining, but were just enjoying the bodily features and the fun of Krishna. They told mother Yaśodā, "Your son comes to our house and steals butter. We try to conceal it in the dark so that He cannot see it, but somehow He still finds it out. You had better take away all His ornaments because we think that the light of His jewels helps Him find the butterpot." Mother Yaśodā replied, "Yes, I will take off all His ornaments." But the neighbors would reply, "No, no. It is useless. Somehow this boy has an effulgence that comes out of Himself. He can find the butter even without the ornaments." Thus the transcendental body is effulgent.

It is because of the effulgence of Krishna's transcendental body that there is light. Whatever light we see is simply borrowed light from Krishna's effulgence. As stated in the Brahma-samhitā (5.40):

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-anda-koti-

kotishv aśesha-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam

tad brahma nishkalam anantam aśesha-bhūtam

govindam ādi-purusham tam aham bhajāmi

"In the millions and millions of universes there are innumerable planets, and each of them is different from the others by its cosmic constitution. All of these planets are situated within the spiritual effulgence called the brahmajyoti. This brahmajyoti is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whom I worship."

The bodily effulgence of Krishna generates millions of universes. In this solar system the sun produces many planets, and because of sunshine the planets are warm and the seasons change. Because of the sun there are trees, green foliage, fruits, and flowers. Similarly, whatever we see in creation is all due to Krishna's bodily effulgence.

The Māyāvādīs simply see the effulgence, which is impersonal. They cannot see anything more. We may see an airplane rise in the sky, but after a while it passes out of our sight due to the dazzling sunshine. The airplane is there, but we cannot see it. Similarly, if we simply try to see the effulgent brahmajyoti, we are unable to see within it. One of the mantras in the Īśopanishad therefore petitions the Lord to wind up His effulgence so that He can be seen properly.

 

 

 

By realizing the impersonal Brahman, one simply realizes the effulgence emanating from the transcendental body of Krishna. This effulgence is compared to the sunshine. There is the sun-god, the sun itself and the sunshine which is the shining effulgence of that original sun-god. Similarly, the spiritual effulgence (brahmajyoti), impersonal Brahman, is nothing but the personal effulgence of Krishna. To support this analysis, Lord Caitanya quotes one important verse from Brahma-samhita in which Lord Brahma says:

yasya prabha prabhavato jagadanda-koti-

kotishv asesha-vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam

tad-brahma nishkalam anantam asesha-bhutam

govindam adi-purusham tam aham bhajami

"I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by whose personal effulgence the unlimited brahmajyoti is manifested. In that brahmajyoti there are innumerable universes, and each is filled with innumerable planets." (Brahma-samhita 5.40)

 

[Guruvani]

to say that Krishna has no effulgence in Goloka is simply a serious lack of spiritual knowledge.

and within the effulgence of Krishna in Goloka are numberless spiritual sparks in shanta rasa.

[Gaurasundara]

 

to say that Krishna has no effulgence in Goloka is simply a serious lack of spiritual knowledge.

and within the effulgence of Krishna in Goloka are numberless spiritual sparks in shanta rasa.

Nobody is denying that effulgence does not originate in Krishna, but that it is not perceptible to the residents of Goloka Vrindavan. If it is, I'd like to see scriptural examples of how His mother, father, friends, gopis, gopas etc. are (constantly) blinded by the bright effulgence that emanates from His body. The example from Sri Rupa Gosvami's Padyavali is an example of Krishna's "soft effulgence" that is a part of His beauty, and which is also called His bodily luster: "A perfect devotee of Krsna is overwhelmed by seeing the beauty of Krsna's bodily luster, His face and smile, and he bathes in the ocean of transcendental convulsions." (Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter: The Beauty of Krsna)

 

Mind you, I assume we are talking about aprakata-lila here, not prakata-lila. You won't find any scriptural examples to support this effulgence idea except for the philosophical verses from Brahma-samhita etc, which nobody is denying. The tattva is that Krishna emanates effulgence, but not in lila. Lila would be pretty hard otherwise; everyone would be constantly bumping into each other being blinded by Krishna's glaring effulgence and leading to some comedic situations. Life in Vrindavan is meant to be a barrel of laughs, but not that much.

 

This is all besides the point though, because I still think the explanation of SB 4.28.54 to refer only to the souls who are supposedly in santa-rasa is a pretty huge extrapolation by any standards. It is also impossible since santa-rasa is not present in Goloka Vrindavan (but is there in Vaikuntha). But even if it were true, I'd like to see evidence that the spiritual sparks within Krishna's effulgence are in santa-rasa. Does anybody else have an opinion or understanding of this? Sorry for offending anyone, I see we're getting off-track from the "fall/no-fall" discussion lol.

 

Anyway I gotta go.

[Guruvani]

Bg 15.16, purport,

 

As long as a living entity is in this dark material world, he is in conditional life, but as soon as he reaches the spiritual sky by cutting through the false, perverted tree of this material world, he becomes liberated. Then there is no chance of his coming back here. In his conditional life, the living entity considers himself to be the lord of this material world, but in his liberated state he enters into the spiritual kingdom and becomes an associate of the Supreme Lord. There he enjoys eternal bliss, eternal life, and full knowledge.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that when a living entity become liberated to the spiritual sky that "THERE IS NO CHANCE OF COMING BACK HERE".

 

So, "NO CHANCE OF COMING BACK HERE" does not support the theory that a living entity can fall from Goloka.

 

NO CHANCE!

What part of NO CHANCE is it that we don't understand?

[Guest guest]

 

The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully.

 

Srila Prabhupada says here: "the spiritual world." He doesn't specify where in the spiritual world. He has never said that gopis and cowherd boys fall from Krsna lila in Goloka Vrindavana.

 

 

Nobody is denying that effulgence does not originate in Krishna, but that it is not perceptible to the residents of Goloka Vrindavan.

 

Yes, so just because that effulgence is not perceptible to the residents of Goloka Vrindavana does not mean it does not exist or that it is not present. After all, His abode has no need of sunlight, moonlight, nor electricity, due to the rays of His bodily effulgence. The residents there do not even know that Krsna is God. Yogamaya has removed that understanding from their vision, and it would seem, His glaring effulgence as well. "Yogamaya... acts to perfect all the pastimes of the Lord with His different types of devotees." (Bhag. 2.7.30, purp.) "The Lord's pure devotee renders service unto the Lord out of unalloyed love only, and while discharging such devotional service the pure devotee forgets the position of the Supreme Lord." [bhag. 1.8.31, purport]

 

Perhaps the real question we should be asking (which Guruvani and others have alluded to) is how can maha maya have any influence at all on the residents of Goloka Vrindavana, when both the Srimad Bhagavatam and Srila Prabhupada clearly state that maya is not present? (Bhag 2.9.10: na yatra maya) And in a purport to CC Madhya 5.22: "Where not only is life eternal, blissful and full of knowledge... ignorance, misery, egoism, anger and envy-are completely absent." If maha maya does not exist there, and if Krsna states in Bhagavad Gita that His devotee will never perish and will always be protected, then how is it possible that living entities can fall from the spiritual world? The answer is: it is not possible. Start from these very basic premises, and anyone who has been bewildered by this issue should find it rather easy to resolve.

[Guruvani]

If the devotees of Goloka are falling down like flies by the trillions, then everyone in Goloka would be living in abject fear for eternity.

If all around you there were devotees falling down from Goloka to become worms in stool in the material world, then Goloka would be like living in a nightmare.

Just think about it!

If devotees are falling down by the zillions from Goloka then everyone there must be living in stark terror at every moment worrying about making a mistake and being cursed by Krishna to become a worm in stool and reincarnating in the material world over and over again for billions of years.

 

If there is any falling down from Goloka, then that means there must be fear of Krishna in Goloka.

Fear of God is a pathetic Old Testament religion.

It does not exist in Goloka.

 

If there was fear of Krishna and fear of falling down from Goloka to become a worm in stool, then Goloka would become a Hell.

 

Just imagine............................

You have eternal life of bliss and knowledge, but you have to live in eternal fear of falling down to eternal damnation of material existence.

 

That is one pathetic concept.

 

It is for spiritual midgets who have no realization.

It is not for realized souls.

It is for the honeybottle-lickers who have no spiritual realization.

 

Bottle-lickers and fall from Goloka theory.

That is the problem here.

[muralidhar_das]

 

Hare Krishna Prabhu

 

It was at 83 Hereford street Gleb, near the Sydney Uni. Madhuvisa Swami, Yaso, Balarama, Citta, Caru, Dwaip, Gaura, Atri devi-dasi Ambika devi-dasi Sukla devi-dasi, Madhuvisa Swami and me and others I cannot remember. There were 14 of us on the double Decker Bus, the Brahmacari quarters were down stairs and the brahmatrinis quarters were up stairs. The trip went up north in April 1972, 35 years ago this month, great memories and great Kirtans. At Karanda Madhuvisa lead a blissful kirtan through the hippie community and hundreds joined in chanting Hare Krishna and dancing. Devotees before this too had never visited every place we went. We also celebrated Janmastami up there at a Buddhist colony; we got them all chanting Hare Krishna with hundreds of hippies. The following day was Vysa-puj and Madhuvisa had this lit candle under Srila Prabhupada’s photo, the aura from that photo permeated the entire bus with an amazing mood of reverence and Krishna Consciousness. They were special days and there was a special innocence about those days, there was no hanky panky going on in those early years, everyone was very sincere, very dedicated, very attached to Prabhupada. In those early years we only ate offerings to the Dieties and absolutely nothing else (A photo of the Panca-tattva with a Photo of Prabhupada at their feet), no-one even dreamed of eating anything unprepared by devotees or even drink soft drinks, those years were extraordinary. Dwaip cooked up beautiful offers to Srila Prabhupada while Citta, Gaura and Balarama were the Bus Drivers and Yaso was the inquisitive philosopher, actually we all were. Many times we discussed the origins of the jiva that lead to the famous “Crow-and-Tal-Fruit Logic” letter Srila Prabupada sent to his inquisitive Australian devotees.

 

I was also on that bus from Cairns to Sydney. I was called Srngi then - you might remember me by that name.

 

Kunti Bhoja was there as well, you left his name out. Purandara and Krishna Prema were in Milla Milla - I was living with them.

 

That is when I joined.

 

No hanky panky on that bus? Ahem, well, Madhu..... Ambika...

 

Driving south we pulled into Newcastle, Balaram's home town, at the beach where he used to surf. It was cloudy. We had a program I think in a carpark beside the beach.

 

Yes it was fun and we were (sort of) innocent.

 

And... 20 years later, about fifteen years ago, I gave up hating Madhudvisa and Dipak for what they did to me and many others with their varnasrama philosophy of "serve the superiors and become our slave".

[muralidhar_das]

Nobody has ever produced a single statement from the writings of the previous Acaryas saying that anyone can fall from Goloka into samsara and then remain there "since a time with no beginning" (anadi samsara)

 

Jai & Vijai only came down for a few carefully planned lilas that they participated in for the satisfaction of the Lord.

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakura, Sri Jiva and Sri Sanatana, all stated how jivas emerge from sayujya-mukti Brahman and enter into the service lila.

 

 

 

Brhadbhagavatamrtam, tika to verse 2.2.186

 

ataH sa nitya-siddho bhedas tiSThed eva. evam satyeva mukta api lilayA vigrahaM kRtvA bhagavantaM bhajanti iti zrI zankarAcArya bhagavat padAnAM vacanaM

 

The difference between Bhagavan and Jiva is eternal. Thus Sri Shankaracarya has also said: 'Even the liberated souls will manifest a body to worship the Lord'.

 

tathA muktAnAm api siddhAnAM nArAyaNa parAyaNaH; sudurlabhaH prazAntAtmA

koTiSvapi mahAmune

 

(s.b. 6.14.5) ityAdIni mahApurANAdi vacanAni ca saGgacchante. anyathA muktyA

brahmaNi layenaikya sati ko nAma lIlayA vigrahaM karotu? ko vA bhaktyA

nArAyaNa-parAyaNo bhavatu?

 

In the Bhagavata (6.14.5) it is also said that amongst millions of liberated and perfected souls few are dedicated to Narayana. Such peaceful souls are rare. Otherwise which merged liberated soul would manifest a body for the sake of lila? Who would become dedicated with devotion to Narayana?

 

katham api pRthak-sattAvazeSAbhAvAt?

 

How can that be if there is no remainder of separate existence?

 

na ca vaktavyam tad vacanAni jIvanmukta viSayAnIti. yato jIvanmuktAnAM svata

eva dehasya vidyamAnAtvAt vigrahaM kRtvetyuktir na saGgacchate

 

It cannot be said that these statements speak about jivanmuktas because it is not possible to say that a jivanmukta who has a body will naturally develop a body.

 

[NOTE BY MURALIDHAR: In his commentary to verse 2.2.207, Srila Sanatan Goswami talks about "anadi-siddha" souls, that is to say souls who have been in siddha-loka (nirvisesha-brahma) since a time that has no beginning. The statement of Sankara being discussed by Sanatana (mukta api lilaya..) is talking about anadi-siddha souls who have been merged in formless brahman for all eternity, and not jivanmukta souls or in other words embodied souls who are liberated. These anandi-siddha souls develop a desire to render service to Bhagavan (atmaramas ca munayo..) and assume a form so they can hear, chant and worship Hari ]

 

tathA muktAnAm api siddhAnAm iti pada-dvaya nirdezo'pi. atra ca pAdma

kArtika mAhAtmyoktau bhagavati layaM prAptasyApi nR dehasya mahAmuneH punar

nArAyaNa rUpeNa prAdurbhAvaH.

 

There is also the special mention in the two padas of the Bhagavata begining

with muktAnAM api siddhAnAm.

 

Apart from that, in the Kartika Mahatmya it is said that a sage in a human form merged into Bhagavan and again appeared in the form of Narayana [sarupya mukti].

 

tathA bRhan nArasiMha purANe narasiMha caturdazI vrata prasaGge kathitaH.

bhagavati lInasyApi vezyA sahitasya viprasya punaH sabhArya prahlAda

rUpeNAvirbhAva ityAnekopAkhyAnam anyacca paraM pramANam anusandheyam ityeSA

dik.

 

Then there is also a story in the Brihan Narasimha Purana narrated in the context of the vow of Narasimha Caturdashi. In the story a Brahmin who had merged into the Lord with a prostitute again emerged as Prahlada with his wife. There is also further evidence that should be examined. I just showed the direction.

 

Some people would dispute the accuracy of translation "naturally develop" for the word "krtva" in the statement:

"muktā api līlayā vigrahaḿ

kṛtvā bhagavantaḿ bhajante"

 

but... that is a different discusssion. Click on krtva and see what it means. The mukta makes him/herself a suitable divine body that he can render service to Bhagavan with.

 

 

Priti Sandarbha 10

 

By his own will a liberated soul can manifest many different forms. This is described in these words of Chandogya Upanisad (7.26.2):

 

sa ekadhA bhavati, dvidhA bhavati, tridhA bhavati.

 

"The liberated soul may manifest one form, two forms, three forms, or more forms than that."

 

 

Thus, Tulsi Devi can exist in many forms, Narada can be present in Dwaraka and Vaikutha at the same time, Yasoda Mata can be present as Sachi Mata in Nabadwipa, etc, etc...