The Jiva Did Not fall From Goloka?

[muralidhar_das]

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> That effuglence of Krishna contains unlimited spiritual sparks.

The spiritual sparks in the effuglence of Krishna are situated in Shanta-rasa. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> I'm not sure about this either, I'd love to hear scriptural quotes to back this up.

 

 

 

21 The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

 

Commentary by Shrila Jiva Gosvami

 

In this verse the author describes the relationship between the individual spirit soul and the Supreme Lord. The word "nitya" here means "for all time, without either beginning or end". This means that as the sun and the sunlight have an eternal relationship, so the Supreme Lord and the individual spirit soul also have an eternal relationship. In Shri Narada-pancaratra it is said:

 

"The individual spirit soul is spiritual and conscious. It lives on the border between the spiritual and material worlds. It can leave that border, enter the material world, and become contaminated by the modes of nature. That is said to be the spirit soul."

 

 

From this verse of Narada-pancaratra we understand that the jiva was originally situated in the tatastha region and that the jivas have entered into anadi-samsara.

 

 

Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.201

jīvera svabhāva — kṛṣṇa-'dāsa'-abhimāna

dehe ātma-jñāne ācchādita sei 'jñāna'

 

"The original nature of every living entity is to consider himself the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa. But under the influence of māyā he thinks himself to be the body, and thus his original consciousness is covered.

 

 

 

 

Madhya 24.164

ei saba śānta yabe bhaje bhagavān

'śānta' bhakta kari' tabe kahi tāńra nāma

 

"These thirteen types of yogīs and munis are called śānta-bhaktas, for they render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the neutral stage.

 

 

Amongst the thirteen types of yogis and munis:

 

 

Madhya 24.155

 

sagarbha, nigarbha, — ei haya dui bheda

eka eka tina bhede chaya vibheda

 

TRANSLATION

 

"The two types of ātmārāma-yogīs are called sagarbha and nigarbha. Each of these is divided into three; therefore there are six types of worshipers of the Supersoul.

 

PURPORT

 

The word sagarbha-yogī refers to a yogī who worships the Supersoul in the Viṣṇu form. The nigarbha-yogī worships the Supersoul without form. The sagarbha and nigarbha yogīs are further categorized: (1) sagarbha-yogārurukṣu, (2) nigarbha-yogārurukṣu, (3) sagarbha-yogārūḍha, (4) nigarbha-yogārūḍha, (5) sagarbha-prāpta-siddhi and (6) nigarbha-prāpta-siddhi.

 

So, included within the list of souls who Mahaprabhu calls "santa-bhaktas" (Madhya 24.164) there is that category of souls who worship the "formless Absolute" (Brahman).

 

Perhaps one of these souls merged in the same light that Sisupala and others are stuck in was named Mohammed PBUH, or maybe that person Mohammed PBUH has not yet achieved union with his adorable Formless Deity as he is working off the karma he accumulated on Earth.

 

Such a great mass of souls who are of this temperament are existing, this mood of adoration of the Formless God, that compared to them the number of liberated devotees is very small.

 

 

 

muktānām api siddhānāḿ nārāyaṇa-parāyaṇaḥ

sudurlabhaḥ praśāntātmā koṭiṣv api mahā-mune

 

TRANSLATION

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Nārāyaṇa, or Kṛṣṇa. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare.

[Guruvani]

Lord Krishna himself proclaims that having attained him, the great souls NEVER return to the material world.

The concept is elementary.

It is in the first book of spiritual knowledge.

If Lord Krishna says that after having attained him, the great souls NEVER return to the material world, then the argument is over and the conclusion is final.

 

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 8.15mām upetya punar janma

duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam

nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ

saḿsiddhiḿ paramāḿ gatāḥ

SYNONYMS

mām — Me; upetya — achieving; punaḥ — again; janma — birth; duḥkha-ālayam — place of miseries; aśāśvatam — temporary; na — never; āpnuvanti — attain; mahā-ātmānaḥ — the great souls; saḿsiddhim — perfection; paramām — ultimate; gatāḥ — having achieved.

TRANSLATION

After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

PURPORT

Since this temporary material world is full of the miseries of birth, old age, disease and death, naturally he who achieves the highest perfection and attains the supreme planet, Kṛṣṇaloka, Goloka Vṛndāvana, does not wish to return. The supreme planet is described in Vedic literature as avyakta and akṣara and paramā gati; in other words, that planet is beyond our material vision, and it is inexplicable, but it is the highest goal, the destination for the mahātmās (great souls). The mahātmās receive transcendental messages from the realized devotees and thus gradually develop devotional service in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and become so absorbed in transcendental service that they no longer desire elevation to any of the material planets, nor do they even want to be transferred to any spiritual planet. They only want Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's association, and nothing else. That is the highest perfection of life. This verse specifically mentions the personalist devotees of the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa. These devotees in Kṛṣṇa consciousness achieve the highest perfection of life. In other words, they are the supreme souls.

 

 

It's the ABC's of spiritual instruction, that having attained Lord Krishna the great souls NEVER come back to the material world.

Lord Krishna gives his conclusions to the FALL FROM GOLOKA theory.

It's a fairytale.

[Devarsirat]

 

What about this?

 

(SB 4.28.54)

 

How does this jive with the explanations that "books are higher than letters/conversations"? I've heard a lot of back-and-forth but I'm always interested in reactions and explanations to Prabhupada's purport to SB as quoted above. This is in his books.

 

I personally don't care anyway. I accept the orthodox Vedantic position that jivas never fall but it is Crow-and-tal-fruit logic: Whether I fell or not, the fact is I'm nowhere so I'm working to get to Krishna.

 

 

What about this?

(SB 4.28.54)

How does this jive with the explanations that "books are higher than letters/conversations"? I've heard a lot of back-and-forth but I'm always interested in reactions and explanations to Prabhupada's purport to SB as quoted above. This is in his books.

I personally don't care anyway. I accept the orthodox Vedantic position that jivas never fall but it is Crow-and-tal-fruit logic: Whether I fell or not, the fact is I'm nowhere so I'm working to get to Krishna.

 

 

Okay here is my pennies worth

The spiritual world is a fast place, there is the tatasha region, there is vaikuntha, there is goloka vrindavan. we can live blissfully in the tatasha region or elswhere in the spiritual world with Krishna. From all these places we can decide to go any place due to free will, but generally we only come from the tatasha region. If we come from another place, like Vaikuntha or Goloka, then it is to assist The Lord in His pastimes.

 

The associates of Krishna are never described as "living entities" the inhabitants of Vaikuntha or Goloka are always described as eternall liberated persons. This means they are what they are 100% spiritual bodies, there is no difference between them and their bodies.

 

To think that they would choose to decent from such a high all knowing position, to take on a material body, without a higher purporse, like being part in krishnas pastimes is mayavadi.

 

They also think God has become many, or humans are God experiencing Himself in the human form and other such concoctions.

 

My understanding is that even so the freedom to do such a stupid thing is always available, they will never do this, because they are eternally liberated and are expansions of Krishna Himself.

 

Can anyone imagine The gopis Lalita or Visakha to leave Krishnas association and come here, to be a scientists or the local butchers girlfriend? Or a servant of Vaikuntha leaving to become more happy in this place, getting cancer or being poor? Remember In Vaikuntha or Goloka the inhabitants are all knowing...

 

To even consider this, means whoever considers thinks that there is ignorance in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Say what? you have to be quiet ignorant to choose this place over those places...hahahaha

 

We are always described as marginal energy and the inhabitants of Goloka or Vaikuntha are certainly not marginal energy. We are living peacefully with krishna when we are in the tatastha region, why not? from there we decide to make this foolish decicion to come here, we could also have decided to go to Krishna but we didnt.

 

I know I am a bit simple, but i think i understand that much

[Devarsirat]

All I can say is that Iskcons gurus position promoting the fall theory to be true is astonishing. Have they read Srila Bhaktivinodas original Jaiva Dharma?

 

It reminds me of some church father saying, (which was an article i read about two years ago.....so no reference ) "I know we should not eat meat, but if we where to acknowledge that we made a mistake like this we would loose lots of followers"

 

It would just give so much credit to Narayana maharaja and other GM members, who have exposed these faulty non sastric ideas from the very beginning.

 

For one who has ones received praise, to be rediculed is worse the death, no wonder they have a policy for Iskcon devotees not to associate with Narayana Maharajas or GM members. they are afraid to be exposed as having no proper understanding of scripture posing as allknowing gurus who can blame them?

 

This is partly where these frictions are coming from and it is damn sad, because together we would pose an extreemly powerful front to those elements trying to destroy vedic culture.

[Guest guest]

Nobody has ever produced a single statement from the writings of the previous Acaryas saying that anyone can fall from Goloka into samsara and then remain there "since a time with no beginning" (anadi samsara)

 

 

 

Just one statement (and there are many):

Bhaktivinoda Thakura (Kalyana Kalpataru) - About WE FALL FROM GOLOKA

 

(12)

krsna se parama-tattva prakrtir par

brajete bilasa krsna kore' nirantar

Krsna is that Supreme Absolute Truth existing beyond the material energy. He eternally performs His daily pastimes within the realm known as Vraja.

(13)

cid-dhama-bhaskara krsna, tanra jyotirgata

ananta citkana jiba tisthe avirata

Krsna is the shining sun of this all-cognizant spiritual abode, and within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva.

(14)

sei jiba prema-dharmi, krsna-gata-prana

sada krsnakrstha, bhakti-sudha kore' pana

These jiva souls are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion.

(15)

nana-bhava-misrita piya dasya-rasa

krsner ananta-gune sada thake basa

Enjoying a mixture of various moods in the mellow of servitude, the jivas eternally remain subjugated and controlled by Krsna;s unlimited virtuous qualities.

(16)

krsna mata, krsna pita, krsna sahka, pati

ei sab bhinna-bhava krsna kore rati

They also love Krsna in all the different moods of being related to Him as a mother, father, friend, or husband.

(17)

krsna se purusa ek nitya brndabane

jiba-gana nari-brnda, rame krsna sane

Eternally in Vrndavana Krsna is the only male (purusa), and all the jivas there enjoy pastimes in His company in the role of females (prakrti).

(18)

sei to' ananda-lila ja'r nai anta

ataeva krsna-lila akhanda ananta

There is no end to all of these blissful pastimes; therefore Krsna's pastimes are known for being undisputedly supreme and unlimited.

(19)

je-sab jiber 'bhoga-banca upajilo

purusa bhavete ta'ra jade paravesilo

All the souls, in whom the desire to enjoy separately awakens, have to enter into the material world under the false conception of being a male (a purusa).

(20)

maya-karya jada maya--nitya-sakti-chaya

krsna-dasi sei satya, kara-kartri maya

Illusory material activities as well as maya herself are both the shadow reflections of the eternal potency. In reality, maya is the eternal maidservant of Krsna, but her job is to be in charge of operating the prison-house of the material world.

(21)

sei maya adarser samasta bisesa

loiya gathilo bisva jahe purna klesa

This illusory energy maya, has created the material universe exactly like an imitation model of the real spiritual variegatedness, but with the added feature of being full of various miseries.

(22)

jiba jadi hoilena krsna-bahimukha

mayadevi tabe ta'r jachilena sukha

If by chance a living entity becomes averse to the Supreme Lord Krsna, then Mayadevi's duty is to voluntarily offer her temptations of material happiness.

(23)

maya-sukhe matta jiba sri-krsna bhulilo

sei se avidya-base asmita janmilo

Intoxicated by maya's illusory happiness, the living entity then forgets Krsna. Under the influence of such ignorance, false egoistic selfishness arises.

(24)

asmita hoite hoilo maya-bhinivesa

taha hoite jadagata raga ar dvesa

From such selfishness she becomes raptly absorbed in illusion, and then she develops angry grudges and envious hatred towards other living entities.

(25)

eirupe jiba karma-cakre pravesiya

uccavaca-gatikrame phirena bhramiya

In this fashion, the living entities are entering the wheel of fruitive activities, oscillating thereupon, and gradually wandering up and down.

[muralidhar_das]

 

Nobody has ever produced a single statement from the writings of the previous Acaryas saying that anyone can fall from Goloka into samsara and then remain there "since a time with no beginning" (anadi samsara)

 

 

Yes that's right.

 

 

 

Just one statement (and there are many):

Bhaktivinoda Thakura (Kalyana Kalpataru) - About WE FALL FROM GOLOKA

 

 

 

In the second line of your quote of Bhaktivinoda he says:

 

 

 

(13)

cid-dhama-bhaskara krsna, tanra jyotirgata

ananta citkana jiba tisthe avirata

Krsna is the shining sun of this all-cognizant spiritual abode, and within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva.

 

Krishna is Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. He is everything, and beyond everything, all at the same time. The jivas are always with him since nothing can exist without him, but the jivas within his effulgence sometimes desire to enjoy as separate enjoyers, forgetting that ParamBrahma is the only true enjoyer.

 

 

 

.

(19)

je-sab jiber 'bhoga-banca upajilo

purusa bhavete ta'ra jade paravesilo

All the souls, in whom the desire to enjoy separately awakens, have to enter into the material world under the false conception of being a male (a purusa).

 

Precisely. Some of the souls in the effulgence come into the world.

 

It doesn't say that all the souls in Goloka fall down, just some souls. And already in line 13 it has discussed that some souls are within His effulgence. Those are the ones who can fall down; the souls in Goloka dont fall.

[Guruvani]

If the author of the above post is trying to present these verses of Bhaktivinode as suppoting the fall from Goloka theory, then he has quite the vivid imagination.

There is nothing in those verses that specifically states that souls fall from Goloka.

In fact, in the writings of Bhaktivinode, we find that he explains that the conditioned souls of the material world are here due to being weak in chit-shakti.

When a soul is fully embued with chit-shakti through pure bhakti, then he gains sufficient chit strength and becomes a liberated soul.

 

Marginal jivas are weak in chit-shakti. That is why they are prone to falling down from the marginal plane and becoming conditioned souls in illusion.

 

When the jiva gets blessed with chit-shakti by the grace of Krishna and the pure devotees he becomes a complete soul, then he is no longer liable to falling down.

 

A fully blossomed flower can never become a bud again.

Once the flower fully blossoms it is complete and there is no possibility of becoming a bud again.

 

In the same way, when a soul is fully embued with chit-shakti he can never become a conditioned soul again.

 

Souls fall from the brahmajyoti when is gets covered by the maha-tattva and they get tempted by Maya, not from Goloka.

 

The souls have a constitutional nature to be servants of Krishna.

By the mercy of Krishna and his pure devotees that constitutional nature to be a servant of Krishna can be awakened in the jiva.

It's not an artificial imposition upon the soul.

[Guest guest]

1. Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks about all the jiva soul:

 

"His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva...

These jiva souls (SO ALL THE JIVA SOULS) are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion."

 

2. "Become Averse"

 

"If by chance a living entity becomes averse to the Supreme Lord Krsna"

 

3. Forget Krisna - How can you forget if You haven' been in Goloka- with Krisna?

 

"the living entity then forgets Krsna."

[Guest guest]

Murlidhar prabhu:

"It doesn't say that all the souls in Goloka fall down, just some souls. And already in line 13 it has discussed that some souls are within His effulgence. Those are the ones who can fall down; the souls in Goloka dont fall."

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

"...within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva. These jiva souls (!!!!) are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion."

[Guruvani]

 

1. Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks about all the jiva soul:

 

"His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva...

These jiva souls (SO ALL THE JIVA SOULS) are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion."

 

2. "Become Averse"

 

"If by chance a living entity becomes averse to the Supreme Lord Krsna"

 

3. Forget Krisna - How can you forget if You haven' been in Goloka- with Krisna?

 

"the living entity then forgets Krsna."

Your theory requires that there is MAYA in Goloka and Vaikuntha, or that MAYA has some influence or presence in Goloka, whereas as the shastra cleary states that MAYA cannot enter the spiritual world. Maya only has her influence from within the Mahat Tattva.

 

There is no MAYA in Goloka.

You cannot fall into MAYA in Goloka.

 

It is a big mistake to say that souls in Goloka can be affected my MAYA.

 

The living entity forgets Krishna because the living entity doesn't properly understand Krishna due to a lack of chit-shakti.

 

When a souls gets proper knowledge and proper understanding of Krishna, then he is protected by the chit-shakti.

[Guest guest]

These are not my words. These are Bhaktivinoda Thakura's words. So is it the mistake of Bhaktivinoda Thakura?

[Guest guest]

So how can You explain Bhaktivinoda Tahura's above words?

[Guest guest]

Guruvani pr:

"The living entity forgets Krishna because the living entity doesn't properly understand Krishna due to a lack of chit-shakti."

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

"If by chance a living entity becomes averse to the Supreme Lord Krsna, then Mayadevi's duty is to voluntarily offer her temptations of material happiness.

Intoxicated by maya's illusory happiness, the living entity then forgets Krsna. Under the influence of such ignorance, false egoistic selfishness arises."

 

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks about the falldown from the spiritual world. But You don't. In brahmajyoti is there any proper understanding about Krishna? Again: How can You forget Krisna if You weren't in Goloka?

 

Another thing:

You're trying to separate the sentences of Bhaktivinoda Thakura. But they are coherent:He speaks about the souls who were with Krisna in Goloka. He speaks about their falldown.

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani pr:

"The living entity forgets Krishna because the living entity doesn't properly understand Krishna due to a lack of chit-shakti."

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

"If by chance a living entity becomes averse to the Supreme Lord Krsna, then Mayadevi's duty is to voluntarily offer her temptations of material happiness.

Intoxicated by maya's illusory happiness, the living entity then forgets Krsna. Under the influence of such ignorance, false egoistic selfishness arises."

 

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks about the falldown from the spiritual world. But You don't. In brahmajyoti is there any proper understanding about Krishna? Again: How can You forget Krisna if You weren't in Goloka?

 

 

You are imagining that Bhaktivinode is saying that jivas fall from Goloka.

You are adding meanings to this words that are not there.

 

The pure jivas in the Brahmajyoti who are not blinded by the material coverings of the Mahat Tattva have darshan of the Lord.

If there is no MAYA covering the pure jiva, then the jiva has darshan of the Lord in shanta rasa or a neutral position of non-aversion/non-devotion status. All the sparks of effulgence of Krishna (jivas) are ONE with the Lord in a state of shanta rasa or neutral consciousness. They are parts and parcels of Krishna. They are not blocked from darshan of Krishna by the coverings of illusion, so they are integrated into the oneness of Godhead and as such they are in cognizance of Krishna, but from a position of weakness in chit-shakti as spiritual sparks whose innate constitutional nature has not been fully awakened.

From that status as sparks of light in the effulgence of Krishna they are not complete souls fully embued with chit-shakti to awaken their innate constitutional nature as servants of Krishna.

As sparks of light in the effulgence of Krishna, without any coverings of maya, the jiva can have vision of Godhead from the status of neutrality which is a state of incompleteness of the soul.

The jiva becomes a complete soul when the jiva is embued with chit-shakti through bhakti.

So, from the state of neutrality, the jiva is cognizant of Krishna, but without complete knowledge of his relationship to Krishna as servant.

 

From that state, the jiva can fall down if and when the jiva is subjected to the field of material energy we know as the mahat tattva.

Then the jiva "forgets Krishna" because his knowledge of Krishna and his relationship with Krishna is not known to the jiva properly from the neutral state of brahman.

 

The Paramatma realized yogi has regained his status of the liberated soul, but he can again fall down from that position due to lack of chit shakti of devotional service.

So, just as the Paramatma realized yogi can fall down from the state of neutrality, we have all fallen down from a similar state of existence as the consciousness of the Paramatma realized yogi.

[muralidhar_das]

 

3. Forget Krisna - How can you forget if You haven' been in Goloka- with Krisna?

 

"the living entity then forgets Krsna."

Krsna is "Brahman, Paramatma, Bhagavan".

 

There are souls who are liberated and merged in God's impersonal aspect called Brahma (brahman). The "nigarbha-yogī" atmarama souls who adore God in his impersonal aspect are listed as "santa bhaktas" by Sri Chaitanya.

 

They are impersonalists; they can fall down.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrī Caitanya

Madhya 24.164

ei saba śānta yabe bhaje bhagavān

'śānta' bhakta kari' tabe kahi tāńra nāma

"These thirteen types of yogīs and munis are called śānta-bhaktas, for they render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the neutral stage.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrī Caitanya

Madhya 24.155

sagarbha, nigarbha, — ei haya dui bheda

eka eka tina bhede chaya vibheda

TRANSLATION

"The two types of ātmārāma-yogīs are called sagarbha and nigarbha. Each of these is divided into three; therefore there are six types of worshipers of the Supersoul.

PURPORT

The word sagarbha-yogī refers to a yogī who worships the Supersoul in the Viṣṇu form. The nigarbha-yogī worships the Supersoul without form. The sagarbha and nigarbha yogīs are further categorized: (1) sagarbha-yogārurukṣu, (2) nigarbha-yogārurukṣu, (3) sagarbha-yogārūḍha, (4) nigarbha-yogārūḍha, (5) sagarbha-prāpta-siddhi and (6) nigarbha-prāpta-siddhi.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Liberated souls can be classified as two types. Jivanmukta liberated souls who are liberated but living in a body. And "anadi-siddha" liberated souls who have no material body and are liberated in the impersonal Brahman (these souls have been called this name "anadi-siddha" by Sanatana Goswami) . These type of souls who see God as an impersonal being can fall down from their liberated position.

 

avajananti mam mudha

manusim tanum asritam

param bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-mahesvaram

Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.

[muralidhar_das]

 

Murlidhar prabhu:

"It doesn't say that all the souls in Goloka fall down, just some souls. And already in line 13 it has discussed that some souls are within His effulgence. Those are the ones who can fall down; the souls in Goloka dont fall."

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

"...within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva. These jiva souls (!!!!) are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion."

Acyutananda, please don't take one line of Bhaktivinode Thakura and interpret it out of context.

 

Here is his full statement again. I don't know how accurate this translation from Bengali is as my knowledge of Bangla is limited. But setting aside whether this is an accurate translation, even so in this translation we see that Thakur Bhaktivinode lists the various relationships with krishna namely santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhura.

 

Souls who are liberated in Brahman enjoy bliss and see God. They are ecstatic -- "sei jiba prema-dharmi". The "jaiva-dharma" or nature of the jiva is to love God. They love God. But they are impersonalists and they can fall. The personalists, on the other hand, will never fall.

 

 

(13)

cid-dhama-bhaskara krsna, tanra jyotirgata

ananta citkana jiba tisthe avirata

Krsna is the shining sun of this all-cognizant spiritual abode, and within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva.

(14)

sei jiba prema-dharmi, krsna-gata-prana

sada krsnakrstha, bhakti-sudha kore' pana

These jiva souls are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion.

(15)

nana-bhava-misrita piya dasya-rasa

krsner ananta-gune sada thake basa

Enjoying a mixture of various moods in the mellow of servitude, the jivas eternally remain subjugated and controlled by Krsna;s unlimited virtuous qualities.

(16)

krsna mata, krsna pita, krsna sahka, pati

ei sab bhinna-bhava krsna kore rati

They also love Krsna in all the different moods of being related to Him as a mother, father, friend, or husband.

[Guest guest]

Murlidhar pr:

"Acyutananda, please don't take one line of Bhaktivinode Thakura and interpret it out of context."

 

You said that Bhaktivinoda Thakura in 13 describes: some souls are within His effulgence. Those are the ones who can fall down.

 

I said that Bhaktivinod Thakura did not say that. He said "within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva..." Then in the following verse: "These jiva souls (!!!!) are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna" Than he describes all the relationships. So the "these jiva souls" words show, that He speak about the jivas "...within His effulgence". And this is against Your interpretation. These jivas are not just the jivas who can fall down (in your interpretation) - He speaks about all the jiva souls.

 

(sorry for my poor english - this is not my native language.)

[Guest guest]

Guruvani and Murlidhar prabhus!

 

Please try to see Bhaktivinod Thakur's text a chorenet text.

 

Because You are doing this:

 

An example:

I bought 1 cup of milk.

But the milk was hot.

So I did not drink the milk.

 

It's like would try to prove, that I speak about another milk in each sentences.

 

So begin at the beginning of the vers:

 

The title is:

SONG ONE --- SAMBANDHA (Relationship with Krsna)

 

(1)"Oh mind! Please listen to me now while I narrate this explanation of the absolute truth, the forgetfulness of which causes the soul's bondage to the material world."

 

Does He speak about the forgetfulness of which causes the soul's bondage to the material world? Doesn't He?

[Guruvani]

Lets look at what Bhaktivinode says in Jaiva Dharma ch. 15.

Here we will learn about how Jivas are incomplete souls until they are sufficiently blessed with Chit Shakti.

 

 

Vrajanatha:

The individual soul is not created by maya. That

I accept. Maya has the power to dominate the individual soul.

That I understand. This is my question: Does the spiritual potency

(cit-sakti) place the individual soul on the border (tatastha) of

matter and spirit?

Babaji:

No. The cit-sakti is the full manifestation of Lord

Krsna's potency. Whatever she creates is eternally perfect (nitya-

siddha). The individual spirit souls are not eternally perfect.

By engaging in the activities of devotional service (sadhana) they

may become perfect (sadhana-siddha) and thus enjoy spiritual bliss

exactly like that enjoyed by the eternally perfect (nitya-siddha)

beings. The four kinds of gopi-friends (sakhi) of Srimati

Radharani are eternally perfect beings (nitya-siddha). They are

manifested from the form of Srimati Radharani, who is the cit-sakti

Herself. All the individual spirit souls are manifested from Lord

Krsna's jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Lord Krsna's complete potency

(purna-sakti). The individual souls (jiva-sakti) are counted among

Lord Krsna's incomplete potencies (apurna-sakti). From the

complete potency complete and perfect things are manifested. From

the incomplete potency all the individual souls, who are atomic

fragments of consciousness, are manifested. Lord Krsna manifests

different kinds of entities according to the different kinds of

potencies He employs to create them. When He is manifested in His

cit-sakti, He appears as Krsna and as Narayana, the master of

Vaikuntha. When He is manifested in the jiva-sakti, He appears as

Baladeva, His pastime form (vilasa-murti) in Vraja. When He is

manifested in the maya-sakti, He appears as the three forms of

Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu.

In Vraja He appears in His original form, as Krsna, a form

manifested by His complete potency. Appearing as Baladeva, He

manifests His sesa-tattva (nature of Lord Sesa). In this way He

manifests the eight kinds of services the eternally liberated

associates offer to Him. Again in Vaikuntha He appears as Sesa-

Sankarsana and manifests the eight kinds of service His eternal

associates offer to Lord Narayana. Lord Sankarsana incarnates as

Maha-Visnu. He becomes the resting-place of the jiva-sakti and

appears as the Supersoul in the hearts of all the individual souls

residing in the material world. All these individual souls are

attracted to maya. As long as they do not attain the mercy of the

Supreme Personality of Godhead and take shelter of the Lord's

spiritual hladini-sakti, they are defeated by Maya. Numberless

souls are defeated by Maya and cast into Her prison. They are the

followers of Maya's three modes. The conclusion is this: the

individual souls are manifested by the jiva-sakti. They are not

manifested by the cit-sakti.

[Devarsirat]

Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

"...within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva. These jiva souls (!!!!) are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion."

 

 

Is this not self explanatory? why not first meditate deeply about this and then say something?

 

Ask the question what is meant with "within His effulgence" ?

 

What is meant with "innumerable fine particles" ?

 

Did anyone ever read about "Lalita the fine particle" ?

 

The jiva souls are never compared with the Parisads, the eternal pastime associates of The Lord, His playmates. The cowherd boys are never described as spirit souls, neither are the gopies.

 

Its is never ever stated that they fall down or even get the idea of leaving from there. There is not even one story in all of Srila Prabhupadas books or the literature from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta or others, which describes even one such incident, not counting Jai and Vijay because they came to assist in The Lords pastime, similar to other great souls whose real identity as gopies is explained in scripture like the Caitanya Caritamrita.

 

To accept the fall theory is due to a lack of genuine spiritual guidance.

 

Anyway one should not argue from a false ego point of view and cont arguing for arguings sake, but humbly accept defeat when it is obvious that one is defeated and accept the one who defeats. This is vaisnava standard.

 

The fall theory is truly defeated, no one should overlook Srila Prabhupadas final conclusion in the matter. It means what it says.

[Guruvani]

Furthermore in Jaiva Dharma ch. 15:

 

Vrajanatha:

I say this: If the individual souls are like

sparks from a blazing fire or atomic particles of sunlight, then

what is the function of the jiva-sakti potency?

Babaji:

Krsna is self-effulgent, like a blazing fire or the

sun. Krsna is like a blazing fire. In the centre of the fire is

the cit-sakti is present in fullness. In addition to the centre

there is also a great expanse illuminated by the fire. The same

way the Krsna-sun illumines a great area with sunlight. The rays

of sunlight are particles of His internal potency (svarupa sakti).

Those atomic particles that constitute those rays of sunlight are

the individual spirit souls. The internal potency (svarupa sakti)

manifests the Krsna-sun planet itself. The sunlight emanating

from that planet is manifested by the cit-sakti and the individual

particles of light are manifested by the jiva-sakti. Therefore the

individual spirit souls are manifested by the jiva-sakti. This is

described in the following words of the Svetasvatara Upanisad

(6.8):

"The Lord's spiritual potency is manifested in many different

ways."

In this way the Lord's spiritual potency manifests the jiva-

sakti-sunlight, which shines on the borderline (tata) of the

spiritual and material worlds. In this way the eternal individual

spirit souls are manifested.

[Guest guest]

Devarsirat pr:

"Did anyone ever read about "Lalita the fine particle" ?"

 

Did you recognised that we are talking about the JIVAS? In your opinion is Lalita a jiva?

[Guest guest]

OK, another statement from Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

"When he is imprisoned in the material world, the spirit soul does not lose his original spiritual form, the form he had in the spiritual world of Vaikuntha. However, because of contact with matter the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. Still, his original spiritual form does not cease to exist. The soul's faith, desire and happiness are then directed toward matter. The soul's rasas, which were originally manifested in the spiritual world, are then perverted and reflected into the pains, pleasures and various other states in the material world. What do I call perverted reflections? When the original pure nature is transformed and the result is different from the original nature, that is called a perverted reflection. Therefore within the perverted reflection the pure original may also be seen. Material happiness and other material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas." (Prema-pradépa, p. 83)

 

One sentence again:

"When he is imprisoned in the material world, the spirit soul does not lose his original spiritual form, the form he had in the spiritual world of Vaikuntha."

How could you explain this?

[Guest guest]

And the guestion again:

In the first sentence of the song does Bhaktivinoda Thakura speak about the forgetfulness of which causes the soul's bondage to the material world? Doesn't He?

[Guest guest]

Devarsirat pr:

"Is this not self explanatory? why not first meditate deeply about this and then say something?"

 

My answer is the same: Please do you meditate on the first sentence alone. Why don't you meditate on the second also? Or the connection of the two sentences?

 

The two sentences are:

"...within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva. These jiva souls (!!!!) are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion."