Gauracandra Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 Ghari, That guy's name is John Edwards. I've seen his program a number of times and found it quite convincing. Now its not exactly a controlled experiment, but the families certainly buy it. Some people claim he is using a technique called "cold reading". Basically this means you have a pretty good intuitive sense about people, and read them and give them just enough info to get more info to replay back to them. For instance, suppose I see a heavy set man with a mustasche. I hear him talk and it sounds like a Chicago accent. So I conclude he might have some Polish connections. So I ask him "Someone is coming through with an name something-skie...". Basically we know Polish names will be like "Wachowski" etc.... Now suppose I know most Polish people are Catholic, so I say "Was this person buried in a Catholic church?" And Catholic churches have certain common elements, so I can comment on those elements. In the mean time they will have given you other clues and info that you can then feed back to them. That being said, and with that in mind, I have watched his program and couldn't detect a whole lot of that going on. But I don't know much about demographic details of various groups. What I have seen seems pretty convincing, though I wouldn't say I'm completely convinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 I long ago tried it and it worked. Your putting aside you conclusions sounds a little susoect to me. The point is God is a loving Person who will not neglect any sincere soul in their search for truth.And from Him knowledge as well as forgetfullness is granted.So he is Self-revealing. Jagat pointed out that God is the Soul of the soul.No one is closer.No one more willing to aid the jiva. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 You seemed to have missed the point about they psychic. He reveals things that only the relative or loved one of the deceased could possibly know. That is what has made him famous. No conman could do that with trickery. Believe me, they most certainly can and they do it all the time. I have heard amazing stories about such people who were later on exposed. The magician's magic on the stage is magical only to those who do not understand his tricks. To me that is exciting, as he brings to us objective proof of life after death. This is the excitement that they rely on. This is what lures people to listen to them thereby giving them an opportunity to thrive. I am not saying conclusively that this guy is a fake, but I would be simply amazed if he is not. btw, one does not have to be religious to be ethical. There are religious folks, believers, who are corrupt and immoral while there are atheists who are fine, decent people. Being ethical and religious have nothing to do with one another. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rati Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 You are saying that the conmen do reveal facts that they could not possibly have know about? That does not make much sense. If you are talking about situations where everyone is in cohuts (hidden earphones with an accomplice offstage feeding the phony psychic clues), then it does make sense, otherwise, not. So the question remains about this particular psychic: If he can do those things, how is that possible, if there is in fact no God and no soul? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 If he is not a con man,then he is being supplied information by Paramatma. The ability to communicate with the dead is impossible,they no longer exist in a plane of consciousness that is accessible to anyone,and even if you could,they would have no memory of their previous incarnation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rati Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 So you do not accept the existence of ghosts then, or is it just that you think there is some other explanation for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 Rati, So you do not accept the existence of ghosts then, or is it just that you think there is some other explanation for them? The concept of ghosts may go well with x'tians, but certainly not with any religion which believes in reincarnation. Assuming for a moment that psychic x can talk to any dead person, what happens if this dead person has already taken birth again? If questioned, this psychic (if a x'tian) will say there is no such thing as reincarnation. What would you say to that? Will that be sufficent to dismiss him as bogus or on the other hand, is that sufficient to dismiss Hindu concepts as bogus? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 Who ya gonna call? The vedic conception is that there are a myriad of ghostly beings. The truth of their reality,is not important,the consciousness of the Vedic believer is created by the vedic scriptures. This consciousness is superiour to mundane consciousness,and is the reality that is percieved by the true believer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxvvii Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Mmaranr is too desirous to be enlightened. The next step is not to get truth at once but learn a certain amount of spiritual knowledge. ------ I feel more satisfied to believe that the existence of everything is due to some mysterious forces of nature. I don't attribute these forces to God. But, these are blind forces of nature that has no purpose, foresight or mercy. ------ No. If you (God) create a machine (world) for making sth. (eg., evolution), you become its indirect maker. At the same time you keep the abilities to interfere this machine's running. ****** Bhg. O Arjuna, My Prakriti (or the material nature) is the womb wherein I place the seed (of spirit or Purusha) from which all beings are born. (See also 9.10) (14.03) Whatever forms are produced in all different wombs, O Arjuna, the great Prakriti is their (body-giving) mother, and the Purusha is the (seed or life-giving) father. (14.04) ****** Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. ****** ------ Theist: One who believes in the people who proclaimed there is a God. Atheist: One who does not believe in the people who proclaimed there is a God. ------ Yes. You can "believe" only. ****** luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: ****** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rati Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Has anyone here that has been to Hawaii seen the ghostly processions that so many natives and toursists have witnessed? The big hotel chains will not even build near or on the paths they walk at night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 I lived in Hawaii for 20 years,been all over the place,never saw nuttin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jijaji Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Jijaji's Ghostbuster technique... Just offer a little incence (nice sandlewood) to a picture of Ma Kali in the area associated with the spooks... They go running, no kidding. For some reason Ma Kali scares the hell out of them! This is a fool-proof technique...just try it and you will sense the slimmers high-tailing it out of the area! [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 04-24-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Originally posted by shvu: Rati, The concept of ghosts may go well with x'tians, but certainly not with any religion which believes in reincarnation. Not really. A soul need not reincarnate right away. they can be an interregnum. Whether or not there is an interregnum depends on our karmic actions. So, if somebody remains a ghost for a while, a medium can still contact that. After all, a ghost has sukshuma sarira. But, if it reincarnates, then it can't be contacted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmaranr Posted April 25, 2002 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 Dear Jagat, >In other words, you want to know why God is not as you would have created Him! All I am saying, given the reality of the world, the nature and diversity of life forms, it is high improbable that a divine designer is behind all this and have created everthing with a purpose in mind. It is the blind forces of nature that governs everything - mindless, merciless forces that does not have a purpose or foresight. > Who gave you the intelligence to judge? Where did the ability to ask these questions come from? The intelligence in everyone did not crop up in a single instant. It is the result of gradual cumulative knowledge built-up over centuries made possible by the advancement of science - just like the way evolution has occurred. >The teleological argument: does this universe have a purpose? Does my life have a >purpose? If it does, why does it have a purpose? I don't think the universe has a purpose. Neither do I believe that our life has a purpose. Just before conception each one of us were one of the more that 500 million sperms that have equal chances of fertilizing the egg. If another sperm has been faster, perphaps we will never have been born. We are extremely lucky to exist, given the immense odds against that. Now that we exist, we have to create our own purpose in life. I don't know about others, but my purpose of life is to understand the world and nature as they are, the diverse and fascinating life forms and the history of everything. We are equally lucky to be born at a time when science has advanced so much and made many discoveries that can explain many things considered mysteries about 2000 years ago. >The argument from moral imperative: Where does morality come from? Why do we demand justice? What pushes us toward goodness and abhor evil, and yet why are we weak and succumb to evil? Why is being ethical such a challenge? Morality, ethics and respect for other humans were uncommon during prehistoric times or even ancient times. When humans became more civilized and there was law and order, moral values were inculcated into all children who grew up to become responsible adults. Of course, religion and the fear of God played a major role in teaching moral values and to bring society to order. This is precisely the reason why I think the major religious scriptures were written and how the belief in God came about. During the times Bible and Qu-aran were written, the Middle East was undergoing tremendous war between Romans, Hebrews and Persians. The only way someone could get the people together to fight is to create a common religion, in accordance with their own interpretations. Given the enormous size of the earth it is unlikely that the prophets of the major religions were born in the middle-east. >So you conclude everything came from a big bang. How much more curious that is. That all creation should have been present inside a seed waiting to unfold with all its myriad laws of physics, that we unpeel layer by layer, onion like, and never seem to find the core? I never concluded that everything came from a big bang. In fact, I don't believe in the big bang theory because being an event there must be a cause. I believe that that the universe always existed but is volatile in nature, i.e. a star can be born and can die. It this the birth of the star (just another sun) the gave rise to planets, including earth. Why the universe is volatile in nature, I don't have the answer. But, it is highly improbable that a divine designer exist because of the many of the reasons I gave in my earlier post. It is the blind force that prevails throughout the universe. >Kant said, "the star-studded sky above and the moral law within" were the two arguments he found most convincing for the existence of God. I don't think Kant would have said this if he was a dinosaur witnessing the imminent strike of a massive meteorite approaching the earth about 65 million years ago. >If you want detailed reasons for everything, well science is where you should go. Unfortunately, science provides evidences that point to the fact the a conscious, purposeful divine designer is highly improbable, bearing in mind that the designer we mean here refers to God. > But when it comes to the ultimate meaning of your existence, you may have to come face to face with the totality of all things that is God, and the subatom of consciousness that is hiding within your own tiny fragment of consciousness, which is also God. This is the most difficult part for me to defend, frankly. I agree that one day we will come face to face with the totality of all things, that is at our death, but why should it be God? I prefer to call it the ultimate reality. The ultimate reality that comes at out death is extremely abstract and outside our own understanding. It is in a different dimension, different from the four dimensions of the physical world (x, y, z and time, t). It is pointless to imagine what happens in the other world and start preparing for it now. One should spend more time trying to understand the world he/she lives in now and face the present reality. >Philosophy is about learning to ask the right questions. In science, one can ask anything!:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmaranr Posted April 25, 2002 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 Dear Jagat, >In other words, you want to know why God is not as you would have created Him! All I am saying, given the reality of the world, the nature and diversity of life forms, it is high improbable that a divine designer is behind all this and have created everthing with a purpose in mind. It is the blind forces of nature that governs everything - mindless, merciless forces that does not have a purpose or foresight. > Who gave you the intelligence to judge? Where did the ability to ask these questions come from? The intelligence in everyone did not crop up in a single instant. It is the result of gradual cumulative knowledge built-up over centuries made possible by the advancement of science - just like the way evolution has occurred. >The teleological argument: does this universe have a purpose? Does my life have a >purpose? If it does, why does it have a purpose? I don't think the universe has a purpose. Neither do I believe that our life has a purpose. Just before conception each one of us were one of the more that 500 million sperms that have equal chances of fertilizing the egg. If another sperm has been faster, perphaps we will never have been born. We are extremely lucky to exist, given the immense odds against that. Now that we exist, we have to create our own purpose in life. I don't know about others, but my purpose of life is to understand the world and nature as they are, the diverse and fascinating life forms and the history of everything. We are equally lucky to be born at a time when science has advanced so much and made many discoveries that can explain many things considered mysteries about 2000 years ago. >The argument from moral imperative: Where does morality come from? Why do we demand justice? What pushes us toward goodness and abhor evil, and yet why are we weak and succumb to evil? Why is being ethical such a challenge? Morality, ethics and respect for other humans were uncommon during prehistoric times or even ancient times. When humans became more civilized and there was law and order, moral values were inculcated into all children who grew up to become responsible adults. Of course, religion and the fear of God played a major role in teaching moral values and to bring society to order. This is precisely the reason why I think the major religious scriptures were written and how the belief in God came about. During the times Bible and Qu-aran were written, the Middle East was undergoing tremendous war between Romans, Hebrews and Persians. The only way someone could get the people together to fight is to create a common religion, in accordance with their own interpretations. Given the enormous size of the earth it is unlikely that the prophets of the major religions were born in the middle-east. >So you conclude everything came from a big bang. How much more curious that is. That all creation should have been present inside a seed waiting to unfold with all its myriad laws of physics, that we unpeel layer by layer, onion like, and never seem to find the core? I never concluded that everything came from a big bang. In fact, I don't believe in the big bang theory because being an event there must be a cause. I believe that that the universe always existed but is volatile in nature, i.e. a star can be born and can die. It this the birth of the star (just another sun) the gave rise to planets, including earth. Why the universe is volatile in nature, I don't have the answer. But, it is highly improbable that a divine designer exist because of the many of the reasons I gave in my earlier post. It is the blind force that prevails throughout the universe. >Kant said, "the star-studded sky above and the moral law within" were the two arguments he found most convincing for the existence of God. I don't think Kant would have said this if he was a dinosaur witnessing the imminent strike of a massive meteorite approaching the earth about 65 million years ago. >If you want detailed reasons for everything, well science is where you should go. Unfortunately, science provides evidences that point to the fact the a conscious, purposeful divine designer is highly improbable, bearing in mind that the designer we mean here refers to God. > But when it comes to the ultimate meaning of your existence, you may have to come face to face with the totality of all things that is God, and the subatom of consciousness that is hiding within your own tiny fragment of consciousness, which is also God. This is the most difficult part for me to defend, frankly. I agree that one day we will come face to face with the totality of all things, that is at our death, but why should it be God? I prefer to call it the ultimate reality. The ultimate reality that comes at out death is extremely abstract and outside our own understanding. It is in a different dimension, different from the four dimensions of the physical world (x, y, z and time, t). It is pointless to imagine what happens in the other world and start preparing for it now. One should spend more time trying to understand the world he/she lives in now and face the present reality. >Philosophy is about learning to ask the right questions. In science, one can ask anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 The truth is that God does not want to associate with anyone so arrogant as to believe that they can fit Him into that bucket of synapses they call their mind. Things are so complex because things are so complex. It is our mind who wants to demand that things be simple enough for it to grasp. It just ain't going to happen; no matter how arrogant we become. The arrogant mind thinks things are illogical, because the reasons are indeed quite beyond its capability to understand in some simple syllogistic quadratic equation quantum metaphor, and therefore it rejects the possibility that reality is actually a Primal Person or it postulates that likelihood precludes any rational acceptance of such theories. There are many crocodiles in the mind, and this illusion of omniscience is perhaps the most fierce. We be just too clever for our own good; but not quite clever enough. There are rational answers to all the questions listed in the head of this thread. I almost wrote them out, but then didn't. There is quite a bit to learn. Perhaps the poser of the questions will one day write them out for himself, for certainly this preaching of irreligion cannot be fully satisfying in the long term. The heart can be dulled and lulled only so long by the mind. Eventually they will have to go to the source and take the knowledge from an authority, and prove it all to themself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 I don't think the universe has a purpose. Neither do I believe that our life has a purpose. If you really believed this statement then why do you continue to try to understand what is around you?That effort shows purpose.The purpose behind questioning is to understand.Ask yourself why you want to understand.Wherefrom that inner urge to know? Even on a grosser level you continue to eat, showing a drive to continue to survive.That is also purpose.A primal innate need to be. So purpose is obvious.Now the question we must ask is, "What is our highest purpose". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 Not really. A soul need not reincarnate right away. they can be an interregnum. Whether or not there is an interregnum depends on our karmic actions. So, if somebody remains a ghost for a while, a medium can still contact that. After all, a ghost has sukshuma sarira. But, if it reincarnates, then it can't be contacted. That is my point too. This Psychic who has been performing on TV...did he ever say "Sorry, this soul I am trying to reach has already reincarnated. Here is your money back." Or does he have some way of knowing beforehand if the soul he is trying to talk to is still available for chatting? If he claims he can talk to any dead person, anytime, then he is definitely kidding...according to those who believe in reincarnation at least. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jijaji Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 Originally posted by jijaji: Jijaji's Ghostbuster technique... Just offer a little incence (nice sandlewood) to a picture of Ma Kali in the area associated with the spooks... They go running, no kidding. For some reason Ma Kali scares the hell out of them! This is a fool-proof technique...just try it and you will sense the slimmers high-tailing it out of the area! [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 04-24-2002).] Hey Guys..this really works..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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