Business Outings

[Guest guest]

One of the key things for success in corporate business is connecting to people and building relationships. This is done to swerve the subjective decisions in our favour. Mostly people do this by eating out and drinking together. Even though your freedom to follow your principles is respected, you will not get connected otherwise. In my own project, relationship problems are coming because of not doing this. And if you go out you end up buying them non-vegetarian food and drinks. This is obviously against our most basic principles. How do we solve this ?

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by ram:

One of the key things for success in corporate business is connecting to people and building relationships. This is done to swerve the subjective decisions in our favour. Mostly people do this by eating out and drinking together. Even though your freedom to follow your principles is respected, you will not get connected otherwise. In my own project, relationship problems are coming because of not doing this. And if you go out you end up buying them non-vegetarian food and drinks. This is obviously against our most basic principles. How do we solve this ?

Don't solve it. Most people seriously believe that every problem should be solved. That is terrible thinking. Most problems cannot and need not be solved. They are like viral cold. They come uninvited. They go on their own. While they are your guests, you suffer.

 

Krishna is kind of a maverick. He tends to reward those who don't take things seriously. Were the cowherd boys of Vrindavana serious about anything? Not at all. Even our own Krishna was a pretty cool dude. Have you ever heard of any cowherd boy in His company who was an analytical problem solver? Never.

 

For a change try to be irreverential in your corporate life. If someone invites you for a booze party, don't decline politely. Try sarcasm and then add that you are transcendental and you don't like the company of drunken fools. Tell them you don't dine with inferior carnivores that feed on carrion. Then laugh loudly. Most corporate folks aren't used to this. So, they won't know how to react. Even if they react who cares?

 

If you do that, Krishna will protect you. Hari Bol!

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by ram:

One of the key things for success in corporate business is connecting to people and building relationships

This too is nonsense. There is nothing like building relationship in the corporate world. It is like building a relationship with a prostitute. It is unncessary. A prostitute receives you, till you pay her. Ditto the same for the corporate world. People display that bogus smile, if they gain something from you. Be merciless in the corporate world.

 

The successful corporate person is one who is ruthless. You decide if you want to be one. Behind every successful patent, there are a million starving third world children. Behind every prostitute [you may call her a model to be politically correct] that smiles in your TV commercial, there are a million starving mothers whose tears have dried up.

 

 

[karthik_v]

I am not responsible if you lose your job after implementing my advice. I have given up the burden of responsibilities for a long time.

[Rati]

I suggest you let your employer foot the bill (expense those as entertainment and get reimbursed). Then it is not you that bears any responsibility for what is being consumed by the customers you are entertaining. In the alternative, you could trick them into going to a vegetarian restaurnat, or better yet to a temple feast. Thas is probably not as easy, however. The best thing you could do is entertain them at home on your own turf and serve them prasada rather than going out on the town.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-13-2002).]

[gHari]

In the seventies I was a computer salesman and had to entertain clients almost daily. In the midst of it all I read the Gita. I tried not drinking and eating veggie but eventually I couldn't handle the meat around me. I went back to being a techie.

 

You may want to consider changing jobs. I am still expected to go to the team dinners and all, but I just have Perrie water. I don't bother with the bars after work. Yes, that puts me on the outside, but I work contracts now so there is no long-term disadvantage. Let's face it - it is oil and water; we will never belong. They are soooooooo boring.

[Guest guest]

Hari Hari Bol -

 

I agree with Karthik Prabhu. Leave it to Krishna to swerve the subjective opinions in your favour.

 

When I came to the project, I came as a lone architect amidst a hostile atmosphere. But I decided not to wine and dine partly because of principles and partly because of the fact that I am not a party goer. Today I am heading a team of 34. Success and Failure come due to karma. Let me take the plunge and not wine and dine. If I scrape through the current crisis, I will let you all know. If you dont hear from me for long, perhaps I can no longer afford the internet - Oh! Krishna! Please take it easy on me.

 

I think the idea of vegetarian restaurant may tick. And taking home is fine if the other person is qualified but may not work in the US. And inviting for temple feast - sounds too far fetched for any corporate culture.

 

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 04-13-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 04-13-2002).]

[Gauracandra]

This is a tricky situation for devotees. I know that I've lost atleast one prestigious job because I stayed "true". A number of years ago I interviewed at a rather prestigious French investment banking firm. I did quite well, and received a second interview. After the second interview they took me to a bar and they all ordered beer. I just took a grapefruit juice. They kept insisting I buy a beer even exclaiming (as I refused) that "We're more American than you." because they ordered a Budweiser. The mood changed quite quickly when I refused the alcohol. I can never know for sure, but that likely cost me the job.

 

My best advice regarding meat eating is just to go socially, but not eat anything. I do that on occasion. I just order a glass of water and try to hold my breath as long as possible Being vegetarian can be mildly controversial to others. My opinion is they know they are doing something wrong, deep down, and simply by being vegetarian they get deeply offended. Its kind of humorous at times. Just tolerate and do your best.

[Avinash]

The problem is that sometimes we think too much about what others feel even if others just don't care how you feel. Once, this problem was with me too. I am project manager in a software firm. From time to time, we have to go out on picnics, parties etc. By nature, I am not party goer. This is not to say that I do not like those who are pary goers. It is just one's choice. Earlier I used to go with others even when I was not in the mood, just because I did not want to hurt others. But I found that it was wrong option. A few times it happened that it was really not possible for me to go. The reason was not that I was not feeling like going. The reason was that for some problems in my family, I had to be at home. When I mentioned this, then many started telling me how I could solve the problem even after coming with them. Though I am sure that even they knew that they were wrong. Anyway, I did not go. First few times I got criticisms. But now, people respect my choice. In the parties, when others used to drink I did not. There were a few others also who did not drink. Here also, initially some people made fun of me. The problem is that when others start making fun of a person because he is not drinking, then he really starts thinking that he is doing something stupid. Don't think like that. Don't do something just because others are doing it. I have never taken any alcoholic drink even once in my life though I have been with people who take these many times. Once I was asked why I do not drink. I asked that person back, "Why do you think I should drink?". He replied, "I do not find anything wrong in drinking.". My response was, "I do not find anything wrong in not drinking." There was no further question.

[Avinash]

One more think. You will hear many times that the people in a firm are like the members of a family. Let me tell you very frankly that it is a big lie.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Originally posted by gHari:

...Let's face it - it is oil and water; we will never belong. They are soooooooo boring.

Yes -- you are soooooooo correct!

 

YS,

 

Bhakta don

[Rati]

You could always just be creative and have a little fun in the process. Here are a couple of ideas:

 

1) Arrange ahead of time for the bartender or waiter/waitress to fill up an empty bottle of dark beer with root beer and pour it out into a glass in front of your colleagues. It looks the same and has a head of foam on it, so they will be none the wiser.

 

2) Order a glass of some expensive vintage wine and swirl it around and sniff it. Then politely call over the waiter and have him return it to the kitchen because the bouquet is not right. When the waiter asks if you would like to try a different vintage, tell him/her to just bring you a bottle of designer water or soft drink. Then comment on how nothing seems to measure up to what your family's vineyards in the old country produce. Your colleagues will be duly impressed with your elitism and you may even outsnob them. If you really want to have some fun with this one, read up on gourmet wines ahead of time so that you can impress them with your knowledge of fine wines.

 

3) When they poke fun at you for ordering your Sprite instead of a beer, explain that you are the head of the local chapter of alcoholics anonymous and hint that they might be some new recruits for you by proceeding to question them at length about the frequency of their drinking.

 

4) Explain that your surgeon would get really angry if you had to get a third liver transplant.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-15-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-15-2002).]

[Avinash]

Those who are vegetarians can be classified into three groups.

 

1: Those who do not eat non-veg because they believe that it will affect their health.

 

2: Those who like the taste of veg more.

 

3: Those who are vegetarians for religious reasons.

 

If a person does not like to eat non-veg, then we should not force them. But, I especially hate those who force the people belonging to group 3. If, for some reason, they eat non-veg, then they will always hate themselves. They will think that they have committed some sin. Let me cite one incident related to this.

 

A few months back, there was a celebration in the firm where I work. After party was over, we were given packets because too much of food had been ordered. Each packet had the name of the employee to whom it belonged. Special care was taken to make sure that no non-veg is put in the packet of anybody who is a vegetarian. There is one girl who does not take non-veg. As she told me once, nobody in her family ever took non-veg. She left her packet on her table and went somewhere. One person came there and put some non-veg in her packet. He did it just for fun. When I asked himwhy he did that, he asked me what was wrong in eating non-veg. I replied, "It is not important whether you consider it good or bad. It is important what she considers. If it were your packet, then your choice would get importance not hers." I felt that if by mistake she ate any non-veg and after eating came to know that it was non-veg, then it would affect her very badly and she would always think that she committed a sin. (There are some non-veg foods which are dry foods and do not look from outside that they are non-veg. At least not at all to a person who is vegetarian. The non-veg that he had put in her packet was something like this.) But at the same time I did not want to cause any fight between her and him. Then I got one solution. I removed the label (that contained my name) from my packet. Put the label of her packet on my packet. I put my packet on her table. Since I am a vegetarian I could not take her packet. I gave her packet to one office boy who eats non-veg. I told those who saw me doing all this not to tell anything to her. That solved the problem.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by Avinash:

One more think. You will hear many times that the people in a firm are like the members of a family. Let me tell you very frankly that it is a big lie.

Absolutely correct. All corporate relationships are exploitative by nature. If the company needes you badly, they will tolerate you no matter what. If not, the flimsiest excuse is enough to fire you.

 

Five years ago, I used to still attend parties. Of course, then I was drinking and eating meat as well, though I was born into a Brahmin family. Ever since I got into KC, I have started believing that Krishna will take care of my career, no matter how irresponsible I am. And actually He has taken care of that. So, I never miss an oppurtunity to act crazy.

 

One and a half years ago, there was a business luncheon. I was the only Indian and vegetarian. One person was quite surprised that I could get all the protein despite being a vegetarian. I gave a scientific answer. Then he stupidly claimed that to get muscles one should eat meat. I responded that I was the fittest person on the table, with no flab and decent muscles and that every meat eater on that table had such a big belly that they can't tie their own shoe lace. I also laughed loudly. There were many red faces, but I wasn't fired. The company desperately needed me then.

 

Just trust Krishna and act as crazy as you can. You will be safe.

 

[Audarya lila]

I'll give you a different spin on this at the risk of offending the others who have spoken out here.

 

I am a manager in a diagnostics firm and I have worked in the biotech business for the last 13 years. I firmly believe in being a good and honest person in all that one does and also in seeing the good in others. Because I have a nature which is to see the good in others I have been a successful manager and have been able to establish lasting and meaningful relationships with others. I always seek to apply the principles that Krsna teaches in Bhagavad-gita and I try to show others how to apply these principles as well.

 

One thing to remember is that you are a devotee and you are called to help others, not simply see them as undesirable association. It is true that you will not want intimate association with gross materialists, but I have always found that I can bring a conversation into focus by judging a persons nature and readiness and then giving them some lessons in transcendence. This will take unlimted forms. For some you can speak very directly about Krsna, for others you will have to speak indirectly. No matter.

 

If you can see everyone as related to Krsna you will find that corporate relationships will be very rewarding. I have pictures of Krsna in my office and I speak very frankly with some of my associates and with others I don't. Still, you are in the corporate world and you are a devotee - in that you are called to set the example.

 

Did you know that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati was prepared to serve westerners meat in order to bring them to Krsna consciousness? You have to think outside the box of rules and regulations and learn to see every person as related to Krsna. If you do this you will not be harmed by associating with 'karmis' but they will be helped immensely.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Gauracandra]

I like Rati's suggestions, esp. #2. I'll have to remember that "bouquet" comment for the next time I need it

[gHari]

I pigged out at lunch. If I stretch my stomach with anything more than water, I won't be able to get into my suit next week for sure.

 

The old veggie talk is indeed most unpleasant. Some are ready. Most are just too puffed-up,

 

Rati's suggestion was so funny. As brave as I am, I know I couldn't pull that one off. How about: I'm fine, I just snorted some primo coke in the can. You would no longer appear like a wus, but then still likely lose your job.

 

In Mexico they actually chose an Indian restaurant for my going away dinner. Pretty classy bunch there. We are fortunate that our real Indian co-workers are getting them used to a different culture; although of course a man from the other side of the planet is accepted much quicker despite his bizarre eating and boozing habits.

 

But what Audarya said is indeed true. In every town and village, subculture and corporate entity our very presence, silently spreading the holy name, purifying the very atmosphere, so eventually Krsna can work His magic when the folks get real for even a moment.

[abhi_the_great]

say what, I am going out for a corporate team dinner tonites. Our boss has flown in from USA.

 

Luckily, dunno why, the dinner is arranged in an Indian Restaurant. But they have both veg and non-veg and drinks too. The good thing is that it won't be as bad as last time when they took us to a sea-food restaurant. They brought in junping shrimpls to show that the food is real fresh. Yuck!!! I couldn't bear the smell and atmosphere. For myself I ordered plain vegetables. Kept munching for a few minutes... but the smell started becoming more and more unbearable. When I felt I might vomit sitting there, I excused myself as if I remembered some urgent work and ran home.

 

The smell was worse than shit... I cd not imagine till then that people can eat all this rotten stuff.

 

Wish me good luck tonite!

[Guest guest]

Where there is Krishna, there is victory and dharma. So I kind of tend towards Karthik's advice - depend on Krishna. This, at my level, does not mean accepting whatever that comes to me. But instead of pleasing the mortal humans for our needs, it is better to please Krishna. Simply this resolution brought a great success today. I defeated 5 others in a presentation and won every one to my side. Krishna gave the strength and sharpness to handle the toughest situations.

Interestingly, yesterday when I went to the hotel (Indian), every one ordered vegetarian. Next time onwards, I am simply going to refuse going to hotels to please people or doing anything that is not principled.

 

And hope I continue to be able to afford the net -

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 04-17-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by ram:

Where there is Krishna, there is victory and dharma. So I kind of tend towards Karthik's advice - depend on Krishna. This, at my level, does not mean accepting whatever that comes to me. But instead of pleasing the mortal humans for our needs, it is better to please Krishna. Simply this resolution brought a great success today. I defeated 5 others in a presentation and won every one to my side. Krishna gave the strength and sharpness to handle the toughest situations.

Interestingly, yesterday when I went to the hotel (Indian), every one ordered vegetarian. Next time onwards, I am simply going to refuse going to hotels to please people or doing anything that is not principled.

 

And hope I continue to be able to afford the net -

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 04-17-2002).]

And perhaps one day go to work with a big tilak and a nice tuft. As my hair is becoming dry in Californian weather, tuft may be a big help -

[atma]

Sometimes I have to go to work on Sunday at 6AM. One of those Sundays my boss asked me to go out to Starbucks and the donut place to get coffee and donuts for everybody because of course we are all still half-sleep at such early hour. I couldn't said "why don't you ask somebody else because I don't drink coffe and I don't eat donuts because they may have eggs", to be in the boss good books. There I went and to my amusement I had no idea how to buy coffee because I don't go to coffee shops. I ordered 6 black coffees and when the clerk put something like a tray in front of me I put the money on it. She gave me a dirty look and asked me if I was OK, yeah more or less still no taking the tray that was meant to carry the cups of coffee. Somehow I left with the 6 black coffees, went to the donuts's place got something that looks eatable and tried to remember what else the boss asked for,fat chance, 6AM in a Sunday morning memory is not working. Going back to work and little later they called me in the intercom to the break room. My boss and 5 co-workers are looking at me with killing eyes. "What's wrong"? "You didn't put cream and sugar in the coffeesWhere is the strawberry cream cheese for the donuts"?, etc, etc. In my defense comes out ""how I supposed to know, I don't drink coffee and I don't go to donut's place, I think that this is my first time inside a coffee shop." The looks that I got were worth a picture, they couldn't believe it. They already know that I'm vegetarian and don't bother me about it but for them is a little bit too much about the coffee and donuts. At least the boss is not sending me anymore to get anything.

 

One day I brought samosas for them, they loved it. For Thanksgiving party I took a huge cake for everybody that was a huge hit.

Sometimes during lunch is somebody is eating meat next to me they apologized even thought I tried not to put bad faces or making them feel bad. When I told them that eggs are the menstruation of the hen, I got grossed out looks but they saw sense to it.

 

Sometimes I get invited to go to a bar after work but I always get the excuse of going back to my kids.

I believe that I can learn from everybody and if I have to be around people that don't share my beliefs I can give association and try trough prasada and good manners make them favorable. If they don't want to hear, fine with me I don't impose with people who don't want to be disturbed. If some are favorable they get invited to Govinda's. Already 3 of them came. One of my supervisors love the neighborhood with the devotional atmosphere in Watseka and Prabhupada's singing in the loudspeakers.

 

Now I remember something that happened years ago with a guru of Iskcon. He came to visit and the TP arranged a program in the house of one of the diplomat of the city. A small group of us went with the guru to try to preach there; sannyasy, one brahmacari, the TP, his wife and I arrived in this very fancy house. It was a reception for an envoy from Jordan and we had absolutely no business there. 15 minutes later I saw that the TP and his wife leave the place and the brahmacari followed them, I approached the person who was our contact there and he told me that our TP told the Jordan diplomat that he was from a jewish family!! The guy went to the host and told him that he was going to the restroom and he didn't want to see the TP and his wife in the house after that he comes out of the bathroom. The host told them to leave and the brahmacari followed them for no reason. I approached Maharaja and told him the situation, he told me to try to preach a little around the ladies and lets see how this is going to finish. At that moment a waiter came and Maharaj asked him some water and he mentioned the brand 'Guitik'- the waiter didn't understand Maharaj's accent and came with a glass of whisky! Maharaja's was furious and I couldn't contain my laugh. They invited us for dinner and Maharaja told me not to even drink water in that house and try to get a car to get out of there.

Finally I sat down with some diplomats ladies and talked alot with them about vegetarianism and yoga. Maharaja preached too and he was apreciated by the gentlemen. Finally we got a ride to find out the TP and cia. waiting for us outside the house. The TP got the sauce of his life for being an idiot and dragging Maharaja to social affairs that were just a show off and not a preaching engagement!

We arrived quite late at the temple and some devotees were waiting for us, he continued blasting the TP but he did say that I preached and that not everything was lost.

 

Sorry if I went off the thread, memories that come at midnight are the funnies ones. I'm still laughing at the TP thinking that he is so smart telling the muslims guys that he is Jew!!

 

[Avinash]

I have found that if you do not want to do something, then it is better to say it calmly but firmly rather than finding excuses. If you make excuses by telling some problems, then others will always try to give you some solution. Then you will have to make one excuse after another.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by ram:

And hope I continue to be able to afford the net -

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 04-17-2002).]

In Microsoft, Seattle, there is a brilliant devotee by the name Jayendran Srinivasan. He sports a Tilak and goes to work. He also has the pictures of the deities on his desk. He also organizes lectures by devotees at Microsoft campus. I attended one by Michael Cremo Prabhu. JS starts the meetings by addressing the gathering Hare Krishna. He has also organized lectures of H H Bhanu Swami Maharaj at Microsoft campus.

 

You trust Krishna and treat unprincipled fools as dirt and Krishna gives you the strength.

 

There is another devotee called Dhanasekhar, who came to Houston on a business trip 2 years ago. He wanted to read Bhagavatam at work. Krishna gave him so much strength that DS used to complete 1 week's workload in 1 hour. He completed over 600 reports in 3 months. Most times, within an hour of the client giving him the specifications, he used to complete it and go back to SB. He attended work in dhoti and tilak. I don't know if the client liked it, but they kept quiet. After all, DS was single handedly doing the work of a 100 Anderson consultants and the client saved millions.

[Rati]

Certainly there have been some awkward moments, but I never had any of the problems some of you have described. My strategy basically is to not call attention to my being non-alcoholic and shakahari (veggie diet), and for the most part it went unnoticed. In cases where meals have to be ordered ahead of time (catered affairs), I just let the person in charge of the food and drink know my preferences and they have always been accommodating.

 

Luckily I now have my own business and work primarily from home, so the situations rarely arise anymore. If you are experiencing so much distress, then arrange your livelihood in a manner that minimizes those interactions. Kali yuga is rife with dark times and circumstances, and sometimes we just have to be tolerant. Things could be much worse. Islamic invaders several centuries ago used to force Hindus to eat beef under threat of death.

 

[Gauracandra]

I like that idea of the devotee going in with tilak. It likely is easier for indians to do though. Certainly if we have the courage we could do it. If they fired you for wearing tilak you could easily sue and win money for religious discrimination. Jewish people can wear their yarmulkas and tassles for instance. So why can't Vaisnavas wear tilak? Of course you'll probably never get promoted, and it is difficult to sue over a non-event.