The Amish and Genetic Diseases

[Gauracandra]

I was just reading today that Amish communities are developing a number of genetic diseases. I had not considered this before, but due to a limited genetic pool, there is a lot of inbreeding. This results in a redoubling of what ever genetic traits one has (good and bad I believe). Thus if a bad genetic trait occurs, its effect becomes much greater with the inbreeding. This is quite unfortunate but I guess a natural occurence from their isolation from the rest of the world. I feel kind of bad, because I suspect this means there will be a natural extinction of their faith. They've been around for a few hundred years, but what will become of them in 500 years?

[Rati]

You can help them by getting them to come out of the stone age and their self-imposed lack of technology. Also, educate them in the proces and they will realize why their inbreeding is not such a good thing.

[Sarasvati]

I sort of like the Amish. They try to do "simple living and high thinking" in their own way. They are not particularly sinful people, I would say, except that they eat meat, of course. It's a pity if they are dying out. Perhaps they should also start preaching like we do. No problems with in-breeding then.

[Gauracandra]

I like the Amish as well. I only know from what I've read, so some stereotypes might be involved. But I think they are actually one of the few groups that actually does "simple living". Meat eating would be their only vice, as I'm sure they follow the other 3 regulative principles quite strictly (though a few years ago there was a big meth bust at one rogue Amish person's house). I admire them especially because they are sticking with their principles and because I know I couldn't live their life.

 

One main reason why they avoid technology is because it will bring about vanity and a distancing of the family. So they don't like cars, because it will spread their community out too much. And they don't like phones (though they will use them, just not own them) because then rather than walking to a neighbors house and actually talking with them in person, we just get on the phone.

 

They follow an unwritten code called the Ordnung, (meaning I think "The Old Order") which defines what can and cannot be used. But it isn't written in stone and can be changed. The Amish do change, just very slowly. They analyze everything to make sure it fits with their principles against vanity and for simplicity. It is something admirable I think.

[Rati]

No one is crticizing their religion, just their lack of pragmatism, which is now threatening their very existence in the form of genetic in-born traits that are undesireable. If certain aspects of their religious beliefs are causing them to take this self-destructive path, then it would behoove them to make the necessary adjustments without losing the essence of their faith (the positive aspects).

 

For one who understands the nature of this world, there is no question of what is part of the realm of maya, and thus no threat from any quarter such as technology or societal status. We should not disrespect someone's religion, but at the same time should attempt to impart that understanding to them, and they will only be the better for it. The Amish lifestyle in their rural communities is not unlike that of ascetics in India, but as someone pointed out above, it is not easy (nor is it practical) for everyone to be so austere. This proves to be their undoing, as the result is that those who leave their communities give up their ways and their faith. On the other hand, Vaishnavas that leave India do not give up their ways or their faith. Does this mean that Vaishnavas are automatically superior just because of that? No, just that there is a principle of practicality at work that has proven itself over many centuries. Vaisnavism spread early on throughout Southeast Asia and more recently to all parts of the globe. Had the Amish had something like that in their favor, they could have thrived and expanded, but instead have shrunk and are now on the verge of disappearing altogether - tragic but true.

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-16-2002).]

[Gauracandra]

Unfortunately I see no real alternative for them. If they do enter the world to gain access to a broader genetic pool, very few will be willing to follow their simple path. Perhaps they can connect with Quakers, Mennonites etc... who I believe are connected to them historically. The Quakers I believe use technology, but still try to live a rather simple life (though I believe Richard Nixon was a Quaker, so to what degree this holds true I'm not sure).

[Neophyte64]

Perhaps, ISKCON should build a temple there?

[Gauracandra]

I think Iskcon could learn alot about how to institute a sustainable farming system from the Amish. I have always thought that developing our farming communities would be a good idea for atleast the following reason. Right now Iskcon has been able to bridge the gap between East and West. Devotees can go back and forth between India and U.S. and enjoy the benefits of both worlds. If we established nice rural communities, we would then create the ability to move between country and city life. I think such mobility would be very useful for devotees.

[Gauracandra]

I was just thinking this can be another example to cast doubt on evolution. There are a few ways to do something right but a million ways to do something wrong. Thus most genetic mutations will not be advantageous. In the past there would have been far fewer individuals, and the ability to mingle with others from various geographic locations would have been much more limited. As such I think there would have been lots of inbreeding, and this would have caused the accumulation of genetic disfunction. Its just something that I started thinking about.

[shvu]

 

In the past there would have been far fewer individuals, and the ability to mingle with others from various geographic locations would have been much more limited. As such I think there would have been lots of inbreeding, and this would have caused the accumulation of genetic disfunction. Its just something that I started thinking about.

 

Religion also says man started off from one couple. Won't the above reasoning hold good in this case too?

 

Cheers

 

[Sarasvati]

Which religion? Christianity with its story of Adam and Eve. Vedas talk of the progenitors (in plural) of mankind. It is a much more complex story than that of the Bible.

[Gauracandra]

This is an interesting point with regard to the Judeo-Christian religion. I've spoken with an orthodox Jewish friend of mine about this at work. He says that in the beginning there was intermarriage between family members. After all, it all starts off with Adam and Eve. Now, from Adam and Eve they have 3 children mentioned in the Bible - Cain, Able, and Seth. Cain kills Able and is thus cursed by God. Now here is an interesting part. God gives him the mark of Cain and tells him to leave. But Cain protests and says "If I go out then others will see this mark and seek to kill me". Something along those lines.

 

For Christians the problem has always been how to explain these "others". After all the only people mentioned are Adam's immediate relations. So some theorize that there were other people on the planet at that time, else why would Cain fear being killed by these 'others'. My Jewish friend had a different take on it. He says that when you read the old testament in Hebrew there is a different meaning. According to Jewish commentary on the Torah, Cain is sent out to the wilds and he fears being killed by animals (not other men). So God makes a promise that they will not attack him - and this was God putting the fear of man into all animals. Just an interesting aside.

 

But I can see a way to argue the Adam-Eve situation. God made Adam and Eve perfect genetically. They after all were the progenitors of mankind. The problem with inbreeding is that it doubles up and concentrates genetic disfunction. So if somewhere in one's code there is a cancer gene, then by interbreeding you bring that cancer gene to the fore. If Adam and Eve were genetically perfect then interbreeding would have no effect on them. It is also interesting to note that we see traced in the Bible the decline of the perfection of man, as the life expectancy goes from like 1000 years to 100 years through the generations. While this hypothesis can work for the Adam-Eve scenario, it does not work for the Noah's Ark scenario.

[Avinash]

For Christians the problem has always been how to explain these "others". After all the only people mentioned are Adam's immediate relations. So some theorize that there were other people on the planet at that time, else why would Cain fear being killed by these 'others'.

 

If we believe this, then we can not say that according to Bible, Adam and Eve were the ancestors of everyone.

[Avinash]

According to Genesis 4.17, Enoch was Cain's son. Who was Enoch's mother?

[Rati]

In essence the Amish are devotees of the Mother Goddess. They just do not know it yet.

 

Kali Ma Ki Jai!

[Gauracandra]

I'm not positive about this but I believe I asked a similar question to my Jewish friend. As I recall his answer was more or less that the others simply weren't mentioned because they were not as important. This was particularly true of women who were not given the same place in the Jewish history. Thus we hear of Eve, but after that if they had daughters it wasn't mentioned. But they must have in order for the society to continue.

[atma]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

I'm not positive about this but I believe I asked a similar question to my Jewish friend. As I recall his answer was more or less that the others simply weren't mentioned because they were not as important. This was particularly true of women who were not given the same place in the Jewish history. Thus we hear of Eve, but after that if they had daughters it wasn't mentioned. But they must have in order for the society to continue.

That means if Eve had daughters, brothers and sisters got together for procreation or the sons did it with Eve

 

I don't buy the story of only Adam and Eve.

I wish I have a Bible with me because if I remember right it mentions that Cain married or whatever with the daughter of the "others"? Maybe other tribes somewhere? I always took it like Adam and Eve were the ancestors of the Jews, otherwise they have a big contradiction in the literature. How Able and Seth multiplied?

 

 

[Avinash]

I have Bible. It is mentioned in Genesis that Cain had children from his wife. I could not find anywhere in Bible who his wife was. I will read again and check.

[dasa]

Originally posted by Avinash:

According to Genesis 4.17, Enoch was Cain's son. Who was Enoch's mother?

 

 

Here is an answer taken from the website listed at the bottom of the article. I am not very familiar with the Bible, but this seems to say that both Cain and Abel each had twin sisters, and Cain's wife was one of those two women. By the timeline followed in the Bible, it says one hundred and thirteen years had already passed, so there would have been time for there to be other decendants from whom to marry as well. That could also be used to explain the existence of the "others" that would see him (Cain)with the mark on him if he were sent away, as raised in another post. Maybe someone more familar with the Bible, like ghari, could confirm if what is stated in this article is accepted as true.

 

 

GEN 4:17 (NASB)

 

" And Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son."

 

Who this woman was is not certain, nor whether it was his first wife or another.

 

We might assume that this was his sister, or a descendant from Adam by another of his sons or daughters, since this was about the one hundred and thirtieth year of the creation, there was plenty of time for Adam's descendants to be numerous and widely dispersed.

 

At first indeed Cain could marry no other than his sister; but whether he married Abel's twin sister, or his own twin sister, is disputed.

 

The Jews say that Cain's twin sister was not a beautiful woman, and therefore he said, I will kill my brother and take his wife.

 

On the other hand, the Arabic writers say that Adam would have had Cain married Abel's twin sister, whom they call Awin; and Abel have married Cain's twin sister, whom they call Azron; but Cain would not, because his own sister was the handsomest; and this they take to be the occasion of the quarrel, which issued in the murder of Abel.

 

What the Scriptures clearly teach is that all human beings are descendants of Adam and Eve, therefore there had to be inter-marriage between brothers and sisters in the beginning.

 

This really presents no problems genetically because the first few generations would have inherited perfect or near-perfect genes because it takes time for mutations to occur and accumulate in the human population.

 

In addition to which God would have watched over the gene pool in order to accomplish his purpose in filling the earth with humans.

 

"What Do the Scriptures Say" is a website provided by the

Mt Vernon Church of Christ and Mike Scott, minister.

Portions are Copyrighted 1998-2002 Mike Scott. Webmaster is Keith Rowland.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Does Christianity prohibit marriage between siblings ?

[Gauracandra]

I am not aware of any specific prohibition within Christianity. It is likely something which is simply understood to be undesirable. But if we are talking at the beginning of creation, then it might be understandable for it to occur (in fact a necessity).

[SoulsRain]

Hello everyone

im new to posting, but i love this site!

i thought i would post in this thread because i have lived near amishes, i was a christian for 18yrs. I have a strong love now for hinduism and kali ma. but thats another post.

the reason i think that there is so much inbreeding in the amish communities isnt because the numbers of amishes are small. there are thousands of amishes all over the midwest and easteren part of the us. the problem comes from the fact that many amishes are isolated from each other. they live in small communities of 20 to 30 families. they go to one church and marry usually within that small community. if they would just travel to other states meeting a wider variety of amishes i dont think inbreeding would be as large a problem for them. transporation becomes an issue for this to be done, because many only travel by horses. where i used to live the only neighbors we had were amishes. like all people they have problems within their communities between people and families, but as a whole they are a wonderful and genorus people.

as i said i have also been a christian. christianity does not advocate incest or inbreeding. most christians believe that adam and eve are the parents of us all. i was taught growing up that in the beginning, as someone else in the thread pointed out, they were perfect therefore inbreeding wasnt an issue. but there is are verses in genesis that many christians ignore. these verses appear just before the noah story in the bible.

 

genesis 6:2

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose

genesis 6:4

there were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became might men wihich were of old, men of renown.

 

to me this could also explain how the genetics became varied if you take the bible as truth. the differant people of the earth the bible explains by the tower of bable story. according to the bible everyone spoke the same language at this time. the story takes place after noah. the people became wicked and decided to build a tower to reach heaven. once again trying to become as great as god, or so i was taught. when god saw what they had done he had decided there was no way to restrain man because of the one lanuage. so he destroyed the tower and as it was destroyed he changed their lanuage. each getting a differant lanuage.

if anyone would like to read this or anything in the bible there are many complete versions of the bible online.

 

there is so much of the bible christians ignore. there is many contradictions and things that make no sense. because of this and many other reasons i left the church when i was 18. since then i have studied many spiritual beliefs. i found that im the most intune with hinduism. i meditate , study, and have an alter now of hindu dieties.

 

thanks for the wonderful forum.

[Gauracandra]

Very good points SoulsRain. I have read somewhere, and I believe it was the Amish not another group, that whenever the population of a given area grew to more than like 200 people, it would split into two groups. 100 would stay in the area, and then another 100 would go out and purchase land further away. They probably could solve this problem by attracting Amish from other states and to intermarry with them.

 

That verse you quoted about the sons of God taking the daughters of men is interesting. I have heard some suggest that verse refers to angels having relations with humans. Perhaps to propagate the planet. Who knows?

[Guest guest]

Actually- the Amish derive from only about 200 folks from Switzerland in the 17th century. Only about 10% of their population in the US (180,000) come as converts from the outside community. Since the gene pool is relitively the same...over the last 12 generations many negitive traits...dwarfism, mental retardation & immune disorders have popped up. Their beleifs make it hard for them to worry about this. THey just simply believe it is gods will,

[Guest guest]

I dont have the book on hand right now but the famous book of Traditions in India written by a Missionary there (french from memory)during the end of last century documents the inbreeding of Royal households in India - and explains how they avoided genetic defect by way of which sides of the family someone could marry from.

 

from memory (though I may be wrong - I';ll check tomorrow) a girl could marry a man from her fathers family but not from her mothers family. Somehow or other this is suppose to stop defects.

Would be interesting to read more about this actually - I'll have to search more on it.