Purdah - Seclusion and Veiling of Women

[jijaji]

Yea...

 

I don't know about all that either..

 

maybe I pulled the trigger a little too quickly on that one..

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 04-28-2002).]

[Sarasvati]

I don't know about all that. But I remember when my daughter asked me first time why all her Muslim girlfriends wear a scarf on the head. I answered that they wear it for the same reason that we put the end of the sari on our heads in the temple. She said immediately,"But we put it on because it's pretty. Why do they wear an ugly scarf?" I think it was funny. We often hear the truth from a small child's mouth. To me, it seems that Indian women wear (and used to wear in ancient times) a veil because it is extremely attractive, whereas Muslim women cover their heads (as my daughter later concluded) because "their men like to stare at them otherwise. Why do their men like to stare at them, Mommy?"

[Gauracandra]

From a purely fashion perspective, I really like chaddars/shawls. It has no basis in spiritual reality, but anytime a person wears one, especially covering their head, immediately they appear more saintly. Its an odd thing. The covering of the head makes one seem more humble, introspective, and aloof from the material world.

[abhi_the_great]

once i read something like this at fateha.com:

 

According to The Reliance of the

Traveller, a guide and reference in

the Shafii school of Jurisprudence,

the main school of thought for

Singaporean Muslims:

"The nakedness of a man (man

meaning the counterpart of the

female, including young boys, even if

not yet of the age of discrimination)

consists of the area between the

navel and knees. The nakedness of a

woman (even if a young girl) consists

of the whole body except the face and

hands." ( page 121)

 

 

Pls take a look at that site. I feel the girls/ladies look pretty chaste in that kind of dress.

[theist]

I've noticed that when women show too much of their body they look cheap.A woman who is covered in a simple manner shows a certain respect for herself that draws respect from me.It's automatic.

 

I'm not talking burqa's here.Those things freak me out.

[Sarasvati]

Well, of course showing too much of the body looks cheap. That's exactly why the veil is so attractive. Anyhow, I wouldn't say that the only part of the body we can show is the face and the hands. When dressed up properly in a sari, a girl shows at least her arms and neck (I mean throat). The British (during the Victorian era) considered the sari a very indecent dress. Yet Prabhupada introduced sari to us.

[Gauracandra]

Its weird how a chaddar, and simply covering one's head makes one "appear" more spiritual. I think it works best with the grey-green ones. Try it out. Actually it doesn't require a shawl. Just take your bath towel, and cover your head and look in the mirror ok, its just an approximation. But its the way the shadows fall on the face, and a certain secretive ascetic look You kind of get a Jedi-vibe, like you can walk up to your boss at work and use an ancient Jedi mind trick. A few hand gestures and say "Jabba... umm.... I mean bossman, release Han Solo.... er... I mean give me a raise..." But don't try it with a towel on your head, maybe spend the few extra bucks on a grey-green chaddar and then try it. Oh yeah, I do not take any responsibility if you lose your job over this

[atma]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

Its weird how a chaddar, and simply covering one's head makes one "appear" more spiritual. I think it works best with the grey-green ones. Try it out. Actually it doesn't require a shawl. Just take your bath towel, and cover your head and look in the mirror ok, its just an approximation. But its the way the shadows fall on the face, and a certain secretive ascetic look You kind of get a Jedi-vibe, like you can walk up to your boss at work and use an ancient Jedi mind trick. A few hand gestures and say "Jabba... umm.... I mean bossman, release Han Solo.... er... I mean give me a raise..." But don't try it with a towel on your head, maybe spend the few extra bucks on a grey-green chaddar and then try it. Oh yeah, I do not take any responsibility if you lose your job over this

Why I think of Afghanis and Arabs men with this covering the head business. Watch out Gauracandra, your boss may mistake you with Osama and Al Queda people.

 

I have to say that I know some women that cover up a lot with the sarees, dupattas and chadars but they are not that chaste in the real sense, cheating the husband or having affairs before marriage, I agree that it doesn't have base in spiritual reality.

 

Completely cover, half cover or uncover, men will always stare at women, that is the material reality.

 

 

[theist]

Completely cover, half cover or uncover, men will always stare at women, that is the material reality.

True I suppose.

But when covered at least it cuts down on the howling.

 

[Yashoda_dd]

I had some problems in Iskcon Bombay (Mumbai) temple, because authorities wanted me to dress opulent saris and wear ornaments (to attract rich and western guests).

 

I always liked simple saris with almost full white colour (I never married and never will), which they did not like.

 

Also, married women that lived in the temple were always criticizing me wearing full turtle neck or some other shirt, because I consider those open Indian-style blouses almost unmoral.

 

It is always nice to see a lady or a girl with covered head and heart covered with love for Lord Krishna. I have seen many of them and, hopely, I will be like that one day in some future lifetime. We will all be, eventually.

 

Remember story of naked Sukadeva Gosvami: noone was troubled by him beeing naked. But, in India so many men have no culture and no sense control and no respect for ladies (sometimes it is very dangerous to walk in the strees of Indian cities), so we have to cover even our nouses and eyes.

 

[theist]

I had some problems in Iskcon Bombay (Mumbai) temple, because authorities wanted me to dress opulent saris and wear ornaments (to attract rich and western guests).

This is such low class mentality.Pimp like thinking.The Catholics show a better example.Some women in temple life may choose to marry, some may remain as Nuns.That is their choice,but in no case are they to be used to entice $ from guests.

 

I read in a Times of India article of a fashion show at iskcon Delhi.I saw the photo also.A woman in a provacative pose,in seductive clothing,laying back surrounded by a pool of water with another model(male) pouring water out of a lota in imitation of an offering.It was on the second page of the paper so those familiar with the paper will understand the mood.

 

Not Prabhupada's mood for sure.

[Shashi]

Jijaji even many of the non Mohammedan women like to wear purdah sometimes to proteckt them from the glans of the beadie eyed fellows.

[Avinash]

Do women stare at men? Can any of the men in this forum say if any woman has anytime stared at him?

 

I wish I could use some icon to indicate staring.

[Avinash]

Or, does any of the women on this forum enjoys staring at men?

 

[This message has been edited by Avinash (edited 04-30-2002).]

[Rati]

Is the issue chastity or sexism? Those extremist Islamic rules that force their women to suffer under those ridiculous outfits has no basis in religion, but are merely a tool to keep females in submission, and indicate the attitude that they are merely property. It is a return to the dark ages, plain and simple: another symptom of kali-yuga.

 

[Aaaj]

Hi ! Jijagi,

Read http://www.kuran.gen.tr/html/english/004.php3

after clicking cancel.

You will find all the articles in Kuran regarding Woman.

 

Now, when you get a chance just look arround topic or forum ramayana and share your ideas,suggestion and more historical factors.

 

Thank you,

 

Aaaj

[Sarasvati]

Rati, I agree with you. Those Afghanistani dresses are ridiculous. Sari is such a perfect dress: it covers the body sufficiently, yet is elegant, beautiful and comfortable (unless you go jogging or something). I personally like even the small blouses (cholis). I have understood that the Vedic culture was known for its sense of beauty. Like, even the warriors going to the battlefield were dressed up well. In Kali-yuga, everything is ugly. Soldiers are ugly, buildings look like some monstrous blocks dropped from outer space, furniture is sleek, boring and cold. Et cetera.

[karthik_v]

Yashoda DD:

 

I had some problems in Iskcon Bombay (Mumbai) temple, because authorities wanted me to dress opulent saris and wear ornaments (to attract rich and western guests).

 

Sickening. Why do you still stay in the temple?

 

I consider those open Indian-style blouses almost unmoral.

 

Nothing immoral about open-style blouses. If you go to rural Kerala or many parts of remote India, women just wrap a saree around them - no blouses. Sometimes, you will see a young mother breast feed her child in public glare, non-chalantly. Perhaps, sex is not the only thing on their minds. But generally I vote for modest dressing, provided it doesn't assume prudish proportions.

 

But, in India so many men have no culture and no sense control and no respect for ladies (sometimes it is very dangerous to walk in the strees of Indian cities), so we have to cover even our nouses and eyes.

 

True that many Indian men stare, thanks to Victorian rule that has made the society prudish. But you are lumping all the Indian men here. I have seen many American colleagues, even old married ones, that drool at a pretty colleague at work. Just that it is done a bit sophisticatedly.

 

Theist:

 

I read in a Times of India article of a fashion show at iskcon Delhi.I saw the photo also.A woman in a provacative pose,in seductive clothing,laying back surrounded by a pool of water with another model(male) pouring water out of a lota in imitation of an offering.It was on the second page of the paper so those familiar with the paper will understand the mood.

 

Are you kidding or serious? I don't know why a temple should sponsor a fashion show. Perhaps, fund raising has taken all spiritualism away. Sickening.

 

Avinash:

 

Do women stare at men? Can any of the men in this forum say if any woman has anytime stared at him?

 

Very much yes. If you look at old Indian literature, there are many descriptions of women staring at men. They do so from the corner of their eyes, instead of staring directly. That was even considered feminine. If you read Kamba Ramayanam (Tamil), there is a lovely description of how Lord Rama looked at Sita directly and how she averted direct glance, but as Rama moved on, cast a side glance on him, only to find him turn around and catch her glance. And they fell in love right away. Of course, such demure glances are only to be found in a society that isn't licentious. If you are in the USA, then such things can be found in literature alone.

[theist]

karthik,

 

Serious, sorry to say.I had to read the caption several times.Page two of the Times is where they always plant a picture of Britney Speers or some other pop star wearing practically nothing.

[Avinash]

Are you kidding or serious? I don't know why a temple should sponsor a fashion show. Perhaps, fund raising has taken all spiritualism away. Sickening.

 

Theist ji is right. I have also read the news.

 

 

[abhi_the_great]

ISKCON featuring models!! yoooooohoooooo, I just cannot imagine!!

 

What wd SP say, if he were to see this? I think all excuses are just that - EXCUSE, nothing more.

 

Is it that this hall is a open hall open to the public, which they can rent out? I n Mumbai temple also, people are free to use the special hall for conducting various public programs. This attracts a lot hi-fi crowd into the temple. Hemamalini's dance shows and marriages usually take place there. I have not heard of any fashion shows yet. I feel that even the stage programs, like dance etc., are not good to be viewed by brahmacaris. But in Juhu, I have seen men in saffron watching these shows.

 

These stuff do not easily sink into my typical Indian mindset.

 

Such hi-fi temples are anyway not the best place for brahmacaris who want to maintain their celibacy - to say the least.

 

Abt staring ladies:

 

Why not? A lot of them stare. Nobody is Satyavan - Savithri in this kali yuga. All are lusty, many are hypocrites, rare are true ones.

[abhi_the_great]

Most ladies like to wear a lot of ornaments and own a lot of precious things. Its just normal, its not at all surprising. They like to gossip and rumour, its also normal. Men are not a great exception, too. Aren't we all fallen, first and foremost?

 

But these are no disqualifications to become a devotee of Mahaprabhu.

 

I feel flaunting brahmacarya is more dangerous than really leading a married KC life, with great difficulty. What can hypocrisy acheive?

[karthik_v]

Sri Aurobindo:

 

February 28, 1924:

 

"... That is the history of every religion, sect or religious institution: it begins with religion and ends in commerce. Everywhere you find the same thing."

 

[theist]

Do you have link or the date? Of course, I know that the online edition is not the same as regular, so we may not have one.

 

It was shown to me not long ago.I believe it was from late Feb. or early March this year.There was no story attached.I can't say if it was in a hall or not.But the scene pictured was in water,fairly shallow like thigh deep as the male model was standing.

 

I have never been there so I can't say where it was shot.

 

Anybody know?Do they have a large fountain or something like this at the Dehli temple?

 

[Yashoda_dd]

Dear Karttik,

 

I am not staying in Iskcon any more.

 

Devakinandana dasa, one of the presidents over there, had a secretary for a while, some young, sensitive girl who was happy to make her own living. At first he asked me to be his secretary, but I just did not want to be too close to any man, specially not to married ones. I asked him "WHy do you me to be your secretary when your wife is free", and Devakinandana said "Because I can scream at you every time I want, and I am afraid of my wife". I even turned my guru at that time, to be his secretary. Srila Prabhupada never wanted sannyasis to have female too close to them. Devakinandan was charming her so much, that the poor girl bought him silk dhoti from her first payment, and asked me not to say anything to his wife. Shameless Devakinandana, rich like anything out of rich donators, did not turn the gift down from poor girl.

 

And when he started to psichologically abuse her in front of other devotees and in privite, she was crying every day. The man gave her a hint in the beginning that they have a special relationship. Everything behind the man's wife.

 

When poor Bharati could not work any more, she lost her compassion, the man just told her to leave the job. He told me personally, that the girl was "stupid and too emotional".

 

Protected woman means respected woman. You do not have to give her gold and shower her with sweet words. Protected woman means she is appreciated and understood as a person. If not, she will try to do any crazy thing to turn attention.