The Purpose for Mahaprabhu's Movement?

[Gauracandra]

This might sound like a simplistic question, but "Why?" I say this in an open ended manner. We have so many religions, what is the need that Mahaprabhu's movement fulfills in the world? For instance, on one level in India it could have been as a reform movement. But we don't have the same social problems like casteism etc... in the U.S. or other parts of the world.

 

If we understand the need in a clearly defined manner, I think that would greatly improve preaching to those who need what this movement has to offer.

[atma]

Harer Nama Harer Nama Harer Nama

Eva Kevalam

Kalau Nasti eva Nasti Eva Nasti Eva

Gatir Anyata

[atma]

Translation from CC Adi 1 text 4

 

May the Supreme Lord who is known as the son of Srimati Saci devi be trascendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold He has appeared in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant mellow of devotional service, the mellow of conjugal love.

[atma]

CC adi 1 texts 89, 90 and 91.

Translations

 

As the sun and the moon drive away darkness by their appearance and reveal the nature of everything, these two brothers dissipate the darkness of ignorance covering the living beings and enlighten them with knowledge of the Absolute Truth

 

The darkness of ignorance is called kaitava, the way of cheating which begins with religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and liberation

 

"The great scripture Srimad Bhagavatam, compiled by Mahamuni Vyasadeva from four original verses, describes the most elevated and kindhearted devotees and completely rejects the cheating ways of materially motivated religiosity. It propounds the highest principle of eternal religion, which can factually mitigate the threefold miseries of a living being and award the highest benediction of full prosperity and knowledge. Those willing to hear the message of this scripture in a submissive attitude of service can at once capture the Supreme Lord in their hearts. therefore there is no need for any other scripture other than Srimad- Bhagavatam."

[atma]

CC Adi 1 texts 94 to 103

 

All kinds of activities, both auspicious and inauspicious, that are detrimental to the discharge of trascendental loving service to Lord Sri Krsna are actions of the darkness of ignorance.

 

By the grace of Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda, this darkness of ignorance is removed and the truth is brought to light.

 

The Absolute Truth is Sri Krsna, and loving devotion to Sri Krsna exhibited in pure love is achieved through congregational chanting of the holy name, which is the essence of all bliss.

 

The sun and the moon dissipate the darkness of the external world and thus reveal external material objects like pots and plates.

 

But these two brothers [Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda} dissipate the darkness of the inner core of the heart, and thus They help one meet two kind of Bhagavatas[persons or things in relationship with the Personality of Godhead]

 

One of the bhagavatas is the great scripture Srimad Bhagavatam, and the other is the pure devotee absorved in the mellows of loving devotion.

 

Through the actions of these two bhagavatas the Lord instills the mellows of trascendental loving service into the heart of a living being, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee's love

 

The first wonder is that both brothers appear simultaneously, and the other is that They illuminate the innermost depths of the heart.

 

These two, the sun and the moon, are very kind to the people of the world. Thus for the good fortune of all, They have appeared on the horizon of Bengal.

 

Part of the purport from srila Prabhupada:

 

They appeared on the horizon of Gaudadesa to spread the science of krsna consciousness, and it is predicted that as the sun and the moon gradually move west, the movement They began five hundred years ago will come to the Western civilization by Their mercy.

caitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu drive away the five kinds of ignorance of the conditioned souls. In the Mahabharata, Udyoga-parva, Forty-third Chapter, these five kind of ignorance are described. They are (1)accepting the body to be the self, (2) making material sense gratification one's standard of enjoyment, (3)being anxious due to material identification,(4)lamenting and (5)thinking that there is anything beyond the Absolute Truth. The teachings of Lord Caitanya eradicate these five kinds of ignorance.......

[atma]

Forgot this one:

 

Let us therefore worship the holy feet of these two Lords. Thus one can be rid of all difficulties on the path of self-realization.

 

 

Going to sleep now, I think I'll dream about Sri Sri Gour Nitai in Mayapur

[atma]

Couldn't put down Caitanya Caritamrita...

 

Adi 3 text 19

 

yuga-dharma pravartaimu nama-sankirtana

cari-bhava-bhakti diya nacamu bhuvana

 

I shall personally inaugurate the religion of the age-nama sankirtana, the congregational chanting of the holy name. I shall make the worls dance in ecstasy, realizing the four mellows of loving devotional service.

 

Text 40

 

kali-yuge yuga-dharma-namera pracara

tathi lagi pita-varna caitanyavatara

 

The religious practice for the Age of Kali is to broadcast the glories of the holy name. Only for this purpose has the lord, in a yellow color, descended as Lord Caitanya.

[Shashi]

I am thinking that Mr AtmaJi's presentation is being most agreeabul because the it is boiling down to this - the Lord's movement is likewise the Lord - that is to say SELF EFFULGENT.

So there is being no need to wonder why or purpose of same. It is self explanation. What explanation for the ripe mango needed Mr GaurachandraJI. Simply taste.

[Rati]

I think everyone has missed the point of your statement, Gauracandra Ji.

 

Yes, we know what Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings say about Mahaprabhu's appearance and its purpose, but what about the movement that began with Him? Does it need any special packaging to be presented to a Western audience, or can it be sold as is? Does it require unification of currently splintered factions to make it stronger? Does it need to be interpreted in the context of the Judeo-Christian faiths?

 

If we take a look at the past century since Sri Bhativinode Thakur's writings had been published in English in the 19th century and Sri Premananda Bharati first took the message of harinama to the Western world, we see the following inroads (among others):

1) Numerous temples established

2) Various books published

3) Many festivals celebrated

4) George Harrison recorded 'My Sweet Lord'

5) Thousands of non-Indians made pilgrimages to the Holy Dham.

6) Hundreds of Vaishnava websites have sprung up on the net.

 

So, that lists some of the tangible and visible accomplishments, but what about the invisible ones, such as the blossoming of bhakti in the hearts of sAdhakas?

 

The zrI sampradAya has also been active, and has built even larger and more impressive temples, although they seem to be more interested in preaching to the Indian audience.

 

Does anyone really know the answer to the above questions? Does anyone really know what innovations might be effective? I personally believe that, as long as the purity of the message is preserved, any methods are worth trying out. There has been some success with the 'if you build it they will come' approach. There have also been some backlashes with the 'get them to do some seva or buy a book by hook or by crook' approach.

 

Leadership requires some qualities of good leaders. One of the most important of those traits is being the perfect follower.

We can look to the examples personally set by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the six Goswamis of Brindaban for a paradigm to follow. If we are going to be creative, we still need to adhere to that super-structure, otherwise there is no cornerstone on which to have a strong foundation, and whatever is built will be in danger of toppling.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-30-2002).]

[Rati]

Originally posted by Gauracandra:

This might sound like a simplistic question, but "Why?" I say this in an open ended manner. We have so many religions, what is the need that Mahaprabhu's movement fulfills in the world? For instance, on one level in India it could have been as a reform movement. But we don't have the same social problems like casteism etc... in the U.S. or other parts of the world.

 

If we understand the need in a clearly defined manner, I think that would greatly improve preaching to those who need what this movement has to offer.

Does Mahaprabhu's movement have to be in response to some need, or is it just His Divine Lila? Aspects such as reform are really only subservient to the main function, His distribution of prema to the world. If reform of the caste system was needed at that time to further that end, then that was the means. If imposing such a system, on the other hand, would have been useful, then that would have been the means employed.

 

Yes, understanding what need the movement fills is helpful, but it is even more important to first understand the nature of the movement (see my above post), in order to keep it from drifting from its predetermined course. There can only be a single purpose. If that purpose is switched for another or made multi-purpose, then it becomes another movement and not the original one.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 04-30-2002).]

[gHari]

There is no other way.

[gHari]

Don't know that I read this, but I used to tell people that our consciousness is affected by sound and the sound of the planet has become very degraded, polluted by the noise of quarrel and machines and fornication and all sorts of unmentionable wickedness. The only way to purify our existence now is to create an antiseptic cocoon of auspicious sound around us by chanting the Holy Names of God.<font color="#f7f7f7">

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 04-30-2002).]

[theist]

Keeping the emphasis on the basics is the way to keep it from drifting imo.

 

Kirtan,prasadam distribution, outreach to others.Basic philosophy.Not the body, God is an all-attractive person.Always reaching out.

 

This is the Lord's mercy mission.In some way, grand or small, help someone.

 

[Gauracandra]

Yes, Rati was right in terms of what I was thinking about. Saying chanting the Holy Name is our purpose is just a bit too easy. What I mean by that is that internally for those who are already devotees that may be true. But it’s a bit like a Christian saying “Have you heard the good news? Jesus died for your sins and is coming back.” It may be the Christian philosophy but it isn’t very convincing to an outsider.

 

Think of it this way, you are walking down the street and you start talking with a person. He says he believes in God, but doesn’t attend any church. You ask why? And he says because he hasn’t found any church that appeals to him.

 

The fact is this is not an uncommon scenario. If you look at public opinion surveys in the U.S. 90-95% of Americans believe in God, and yet only like 40% attend church on a somewhat regular basis, and only like 25% attend every week. To me this means there is a huge disconnect in that most of the religions in the U.S. obviously aren’t fulfilling the needs of the mass of people who DO believe in God. Why is this? Does Mahaprabhu’s movement have SOMETHING that will fill that gap.

 

Ask this question another way…. Who are we trying to attract to Mahaprabhu’s movement? If you say “Everyone” I again think this is taking an easy way out. Its just too easy to say “We want everyone to be Vaisnavas.” In my opinion our goal should not be trying to get 100%. Our goal should be to get 1%. We should not be trying to attract those who don’t want to be devotees. Instead we should focus our energies on attracting those who innately are devotees but haven’t realized it yet.

 

It is very difficult to change someone’s mind. You can spend all your time and energy trying to “convert” the unconvertible. An easier approach is to attract those who naturally agree with you. But how can this be done? The first step is to KNOW what it is you offer that certain people naturally agree with. Then let the world know that this is what you have. This means BEING something very specific. If you are all things to all people, you are nothing to anyone.

 

A quick statistic that convinced me of this. Many years ago I was going to my local library when I came upon a book by some professors who were studying the Hare Krsna movement. I don’t recall its title but one of the professors made an interesting statement. He said that 50% of all devotees who were made in the 1960s and 1970s were vegetarian before joining the movement. Think about that for a second. That is one heck of a statistically significant number. What it means to me is that people weren’t “converted” from meat eating to vegetarianism. Half of all devotees simply naturally found that “Here is a religion that agrees with me, I like it, I’m joining.” 50% of devotees were vegetarian before becoming devotees despite that 1-2% of the general population is vegetarian. Obviously the traditional churches with their meat eating weren’t appealing to these individuals, and Mahaprabhu’s movement help to fill this particular need.

 

So what need does Mahaprabhu’s movement fulfill? My own response is that it gives a different mood of worship. But part of me thinks I haven’t thought about this hard enough. My main thinking is that Christianity, Judaism, Islam all come from basically the same “stock”. If we try to be like these other religions we will fail. The mood of these religions are quite similar, though certainly in varying degrees. As such many people who don’t want to worship in that mood don’t find church “appealing”.

 

The 1950s was the Ozzie & Harriett period in America. Then came along the Vietnam war and 50,000 Americans (mostly young) died. The beauty of Radha Krsna was a perfect contrast to the boring, bland sermonizing of the 50s and the death and violence of the 60s. So people chose their religion because it appealed to them I think. They weren’t converted, but rather discovered something that they all along agreed with but never knew existed.

 

If we focused our message on the beauty and personhood of the Divine Couple, and consistently presented this message I think it would still work today. I truly believe that 1% of the U.S. population if they saw the deities of Radha Krsna would say “I think that’s what God looks like”. And what is 1%? That’s 3 million Americans. Once we can attract 1% to Vaisnavism (maybe after 100 years), then we can work on 2%. Everyone else who doesn’t want to be a devotee, that’s fine. To each their own. But if we keep a very focused message, and know what it is we have to offer, and present that consistently, I think this is the key to success.

 

But again, I might be taking the easy way out. Its very difficult to think outside the box. What do we have to offer? What is the appeal of this movement? I don’t know, I’m just brainstorming.

 

One other bit of religious history to mull over. I’ve talked about the Mormons on these forums before. In the 1950s there was actually talk that this was a dying religion. It would never amount to anything. But do you know when they started growing the fastest? In the 1960s up till the present. A clean cut Mormon in the clean cut 1950s couldn’t be distinguished from a clean cut Methodist in the 1950s. When the 1960s came along, and the kids started to get rowdy, growing their hair long etc… That’s when Mormonism took off. I don’t have my statistics handy, but I believe in the 1950s they had a worldwide membership of 1.5 million (after over 100 years in existence). Today say 45 years later they are at 11 million. The only thing they did was create a single message and consistently spread it over and over. What was that message? Family, Family, Family. Go to their website www.lds.org and see how many articles are about the family. How many pictures are of mom and pop with their kids. Every single thing they say is related back to their single, consistently presented message – THE FAMILY. That’s all they talk about. Over and over and over again. They decided that was what they stood for. It didn’t help much when everyone else stood for it. But once the nuclear family started to fall apart, and children became disrespectful, THEN they started to grow, and grow rapidly. So the question can be also asked “Where is this world going, and how can we juxtapose our philosophy with the culture to attract people to Mahaprabhu’s movement?” It’s a big question, and I don’t think I have the answer… yet. Just brainstorming.

[theist]

One way to attract people is to dive in very deep ourselves.When Pacha-tattva decided to plunder the storehouse of love of Godhead They first tasted and then distributed without considering who was a fit candidate.

 

Are we tasting?If not then what will we distribute?

 

Some were escaping though and for them the Lord devised some expert scheme to attract their minds.CC Adi 7.20-22 and the verses also that follow in that section give us good advice along these lines.

 

Mahaprabhu and Associates are distributing love of God.I see that as the basic contribution.More specifically is the emphasis on unmotivated love of God.And more yet the degree of intimacy in that love being given freely to all those that are willing to receive it.

 

What I am seeing is people who began this life eatting meat doing drugs and having sex with people they barely knew in the early part of their lives are now occupied with trying to understand their place in Vraja-lila.Its astounding really.And its due to the fact that Prabhupada first tasted love for Godhead so completely that he became a magnet for others.His conviction was so absolute that others became convinced.

 

 

[atma]

I still think that Harer Nama is the answer. I like the easy way and who doesn't like music and dancing?

With so much fighting going on in the world, everybody afraid of war we can present a united front chanting the holy name of the Lord, the peace formula that Srila Prabhupada gave to us is what the world need.

Because sounds simple it doesn't mean it is less important. Are you chanting prabhuji?

[Shashi]

Originally posted by atma:

I still think that Harer Nama is the answer. I like the easy way and who doesn't like music and dancing?

With so much fighting going on in the world, everybody afraid of war we can present a united front chanting the holy name of the Lord, the peace formula that Srila Prabhupada gave to us is what the world need.

Because sounds simple it doesn't mean it is less important. Are you chanting prabhuji?

You are being bilkul 100% correct Mr AtmaJi.

 

[Avinash]

You are being bilkul 100% correct Mr AtmaJi.

 

You have used the word 'Mr' though Atma ji is a female.

 

 

[gHari]

The question on the table is

So what need does Mahaprabhu’s movement fulfill?

 

The chanting of the Holy Names of God purifies the atmosphere. Even the plants and animals are benedicted. There is an urgent need to purify the atmosphere. Each of us can do our little part, until the whole planet can awaken to its relationship with Sri Krsna, the All in All, the only show in town.

 

Lord Jesus told us to love God. But we needed more help, for our natural affection for Krsna was too covered. Now Lord Caitanya tells us how, wrapping the planet in a garland of the Holy Name. The world would be truly lost without Lord Caitanya. He summarizes it all Himself in His Siksastaka.

 

We saw how Srila Prabhupada would encourage all religions to chant God's names, whether it be using the Mahamantra or simply their own revealed names of God. Glorifying God's names is the essence of the mission of Sri Caitanya. There is a reason it is known as the dharma of this age: there is no other way - there is no other way - there is no other way!

[Tarun]

Last night TKG aka Hot Tamale entered my dream state.

We were in a small school bus, not a RAdhA-DAmodar bus.

We were on our way to give a class at PS 165 in Queens, NYC.

Tamal was reserved. Sabji's phone call woke me up.

So even though he's suspect in SP's demise, MahAprabhu's Mission is so powerful, so open to anyone & everyone, even 90% demons like myself get involved, sometimes totally immersed in zravanam kIrtanam viSNoH smaraNam...

Like a hot shower or bath: even a dog comes out cleaner.

 

[Shashi]

Originally posted by Avinash:

You are being bilkul 100% correct Mr AtmaJi.

 

You have used the word 'Mr' though Atma ji is a female.

 

 

You are being 100% correct AvinashJi. I am the guilty. There is absolutely being no reason for me to be doing that. So why must we be trying to find REASON for the Hare Nama? It is being self effulgent

I am meaning to say if nonsense can be without reason cannot the highest also not be needing the justifications for existence?

 

 

[Gauracandra]

My goal with this post was sort of as a continuation of the "Keys to successful religions" post. I am not speaking against chanting the Mahamantra. However, if we analyze what various religions have and don't have, we can see where a philosophical hole exists.

 

For instance, the Holy Name. Does the Hare Krsna Mahamantra fill a philosophical hole not found in other religions? I don't think it does. This is not speaking against chanting, but simply objectively analyzing what we have, what they have, and where the difference lies. We chant the Mahamantra. The Catholics also have the Holy Name in the rosary. Muslims also chant the Holy Name in the Namaz. Protestant Christian groups have devotional singing (the equivalent of our kirtan).

 

So what will we say? "Oh, but our Holy Names are better" or "Our music is MORE devotional". It would be the equivalent of a clean cut Mormon speaking of family values in the 1950s. If all we have is the same thing everyone else has, then there is no need for someone to be a Vaisnava. We can quote self-referencing scriptures to say we are the best, but for this post I'm really trying to see a side by side comparison to see if we really offer something not found in other religions.

 

The main thing I have been able to think of is the deities. Radha and Krsna fill a philosophical hole in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Radha by herself fills a major hole. All of the other religions only speak of God the father. The natural question is "Where is the feminine equivalent?" There is no real answer for that except in some degree in Catholicism which has Mary. Another philosophical hole is "What does God look like?" Again, in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam God is more of a disembodied voice. I think there are those who are "unchurched" who are asking these same questions.

 

I think Catholicism is the closest to answering these questions. Which is one reason I think we find many former Catholics who are devotees (I suspect greater than the population at large). Catholics do believe in idol worship, and thus when they see the deities they can understand them. The difference then for them is the mood of the worship. Rather than worshipping a tortured Jesus nailed to the cross, with blood and pain, they instead see a smiling face of God.

 

It is interesting to note that those professors I mentioned who wrote that book also made mention that in the beginning of the Hare Krsna movement most of the early devotees were either of Jewish or Catholic background. I suspect the reason is that both of these religions are known for being very heavy, and within Krsna Consciousness they found a more beautiful religion that had similarities to what they were already familiar with. That is the mood was different.

[ethos]

Gauracandra,

You seem to be off on a tangent. Indeed, I detect more foolishness in your solicitations than liberalism.

 

This hints of Mayavadism - everything is the same.

 

What many devotees are pointing out here is that Lord Caitanya is a unique entity. So are many of the other individuals in Vedic history. Are you seriously comparing Lord Caitanya or Krsna to Jesus Christ for instance?

 

You have certain qualities which cause you to think you're doing better than some but not as well as others. The glories and qualities of Vedic personalities have no comparison in the world. There are a few counterparts, but no comparisons. They are the personalities who imbibed and enunciated the highest spiritual and philosophical truths. But they are no better than Western personalities? Is the Bhagavad-gita just another opinion? Is it just another option?

 

The tradition of spiritual knowledge and philosophy in India expound the highest standards anywhere. Indeed, is there anything missing? Can you even image what more there could be? Now vaisnavas looking at Western literature can easily image what is lacking in that discipline.

 

There are more mysteries than answers in Western theology. It requires alot of blind faith to adhere to their dogma. And it is dogma. If I just believe I'm saved. They don't know what the soul is, they deny it in lesser creatures, they simply pray for material gains, and they dogmatically insist that everyone should be as ignorant as they are. Now I'm only scratchng the surface here. Becasue of their lack of information and ignorance of higher principles, they are really quite intolerant of anything else.

 

You have to get beyond Western conditioning to understand Krsna Consciousness. They are still stuck on the body. Many of them think Christ was God and that you can put God on a cross and kill Him.

 

I mean come on. Just get off it. Bhagavad-gita begins where other religions end and that's just the ABC's of Vedic literature.

 

Christ is basically a translation of Krsna. Right? But we don't know Krsna as Christ (no one called Krsna Christ in His time) and Prabhupada didn't teach us to chant Christ. It may be on some level all of God's names are equal. I'm really not so sure I unequivicolly accept that. But I do know we have been given a proceedure and process consistent within a proven discipline and we can't just start chanting Christ. I think Prabhupada said that for the benefit of the Christians and undoubtedly there is some truth to it. But if you think it is unequivocally the same then you'd feel right at home chanting Christ with the Christians.

 

That was a mean thing to say but I couldn't resist.

 

A trick of politicians being interviewed or debating is to keep talking so as to keep the listener attentive to his words and thereby think less of his opponent who gets lesser time. Prabhupada warned us not to read so much other literature.

[gHari]

Yes. Yes.

 

No. No. Please never place any other tunes aside the Mahamantra for any purpose. It is the sound of the soul. It is our heartbeat.

 

Sri Caitanya, Himself, garlanded the planet with this treasure. Nothing can be compared to His mercy.

 

Other names may awaken the soul enough to better appreciate the Mahamantra, but it is these sixteen syllables that flow from our true hearts when love manifests. It is the state of chanting the soul's mahamantra of love that must manifest.

 

When a kettle boils, it whistles. When the soul awakens, it chants Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. This may all sound like poetry, but it is just factual.

 

No, never. The Mahamantra is in its own class.

[Guest guest]

There are two things that are of infinite value - love and truth. The combination true love is the greatest. Caitany Mahaprabhu and His followers notably Srila Prabhupada have spread this true love of God.

 

All the defects due to the influence of time is offset by the effect of true love. The relation that the devotees have among themselves and with people of other faith would change depending on social conditions. But every one of us who has even a little bhakti towards Krishna and chants His name will continue to make a difference in the lives of all the people in the world.