Celibacy

[Guest guest]

dharma avirddho kamo' smi. I am sex life that is not contrary to religious principles. Srila Prabhupada interprets this as sex for the purpose of procreation. Basically, I do not know the position of other schools of Vedanta on this topic and the basis of this interpretation. But from Prabhupada's stand it seems that one can have sex as long as he is practising KC and willing to raise the children in KC.

[jijaji]

Sex for pro-creation only is on the animal level, because that is the ONLY way animals can have sex. Animals do not MAKE LOVE with candle-lite or with sexy jazz.

In the Human species SEX can bring more meaning and warmth to life, more positive feelings for one's mate and also helps ones' self-esteem which comes about by naturally responding to the opposite sex in a natural, healthy way.

Just watch animals having sex sometime, it is NOT fun for them it is labored work and quite unerotic.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I don't care...the lie of celibacy has destroyed way too many lifes.

And the lie of material enjoyment has destroyed billions and billions of lives, actually more than that. This entire material existence is functioning based on the idea that we can become happy by satisfying material desires, such as lust. But the reality is that we as spirit souls cannot find happiness in anything other than our own spiritual nature.

 

This lie that material enjoyment will bring one satisfaction has destroyed way too many lives. We should show people the true path to happiness, one that involves spiritual discipline for attaining a higher experience.

 

It may be a lot easier to just smoke ganja, follow an indisciplined life, and criticize others as being pretenders, but the ultimate result of one's sincerity and dedication to the spiritual path will be revealed in the spiritual experience one attains.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

As a side note, it seems lately your "spiritual discussions" seem to focus mostly around using drugs and sex. I would hope that you have something a little more spiritual to contribute.

 

It may be fun for you to present things simply because you know others will object to them, but thats not the purpose here. Please be a little more sincere in your posts.

 

The server space has nearly reached its limit, and I'm looking for excuses to free up space.

 

[theist]

 

Originally posted by jijaji:

 

jijaji:

I don't care...the lie of celibacy has destroyed way too many lifes.

 

>>Unregulated sexual indulgence has destroyed countless more.No comparison.Not even close.People using each others bodies and emotions as objects,just to follow the sex urge.Real sexual abuse in its many forms.Sexually transmitted diseases.

 

More subtle violence based on the sex urge.Advertisers sell everything by playing on the sex desires of the target audience.This creates more material desires based on sex.People then spend their valuable human lifes chasing the fulfillment of these fantasies until finnaly overtaken by death.And along the way their minds are whiplashed by increased states of hankering and lamenting endlessly.

 

I could go on.<<

 

I say a lie because the celibacy you see practiced by priests and monks in institutions is not natural it is part of a routine, a practice like. Real celibacy is something that happens rarely to those so overwhelmed by the divine, they lose all interest with this side!

 

>>Yeah.It takes an effort.Just like in life you have to work for something you consider worth obtaining.Learning and practice are necessary in any endeavor.Some things must be sacrificed to concentrate on others.

 

It may take lifetimes to develop musical talent like a Bach or the genious of an Einstein.You may be genetically gifted with a body for sports,but if you just sit on the couch all day eatting pizza and ice cream for some immediate gratification, you will never develop your potential.

 

False, premature renounciation doesn't get you to the stage of being"overwhelmed by the divine", but neither does just being a slave to your senses in the name of 'doing the natural thing' or 'if it feels good do it'.

 

That which in the beginning may be just like poison but at the end is just like nectar and which awakens one to self-realization is said to be happiness in the mode of goodness. Bg 18.37

 

theist

 

 

 

[bhaktajoy]

I agree with Theist 100%.Celibacy is no lie.Why?Because Women have their periods only once a month.Sex is also a great obstacle because it bewilders.Lustful desires in the mind is just another form of violence.

[jijaji]

Originally posted by jndas:

As a side note, it seems lately your "spiritual discussions" seem to focus mostly around using drugs and sex. I would hope that you have something a little more spiritual to contribute.

 

It may be fun for you to present things simply because you know others will object to them, but thats not the purpose here. Please be a little more sincere in your posts.

 

The server space has nearly reached its limit, and I'm looking for excuses to free up space.

jndas,

 

I'm not here simply trying to annoy people, I'm just not, I sincerely mean that.

 

My plate is full in life my friend, with work, kids and a spiritual life on some level (I hope).

 

Issues regarding sex, celibacy and the like are a big, I mean BIG issue in spiritual groups today. In fact more than ever.

People are challenging old standards and morals and questioning things, because for do long people have suffered from some of the old out-worn attitudes and abuse has been rampant, some see it otherwise and they are entitled

.

This is the perspective I mean to come from. I do not mean to shock in this regard but have an open conversation regarding celibacy, sex and spirituality.

 

I certainly think grhasta life in Gaudiya Vaishnava society needs to be stripped of the renunciate influences from the sanyass ashram.

 

Celibacy, Sexuality and it's relationship with spirituality is perhaps being focused on today more than ever before. I do not see why we cannot discuss it here.

 

I myself agree pretty much with deepaks postings I posted above...

 

I don't think my postings on this thread have been overtly sexual or anything...

just talking celibacy mainly..

pros and cons

 

maybe it was the last one about animals not using jazz or candles.?? Or perhaps saying celibacy is a lie.

I admit that was a bit different....but understand some of that is for entertainment purposes.

 

As far as the Drug posts...

just that one on pot use in India, which I thought was interesting (others did as well), maybe it got a little out there for some peoples taste (OBVIOUSLY)

I certainly didn't mean to upset or hurt anyone by these taboo subjects...

 

 

jndas, if ya gotta cut me loose, do what ya need to do.

 

I'll miss ya.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-04-2002).]

[theist]

Originally posted by jijaji:

Jagat..

 

remember I said.."If someone is trying to convince you or indoctrinate you to become a celibate priest or nun you are being sexually abused."

 

The stress is on someone 'TRYING' to convience you or indoctrinate you to become celibate! That I feel is abusive...now if celibacy happens to someone naturally like the dropping of a leaf, that is different. But to preach, impose, and basically put down sexuality as being unimportant and nothing but base lust is a crime against every human being on this planet!

 

It is nothing less than ..

 

ANTI-LIFE...!

 

 

jijaji,

 

In your zealous attempt to convince us of the so-called dangers of celibacy a valid point can be found.

 

Some may indeed overly stress entering the monastic style of life and come to see that as the goal in and of its self.

 

But the arguement for sense control in pursuit of true spiritual attainment is also undeniably strong.

 

Waiting for the "leaf to fall" is not such a complete example.While it is true that material desires drop off as spiritual taste is attained, to attain that spiritual taste requires some effort on our part.Some intelligent excercise of discretion and will.

 

I also think your linking someone trying to convince someone of the value of celibacy, even if over emphasised, with the terms "sexual abuse"and "ANTI-LIFE" to be misguided.Way too emotive.It has the effect of watering down the terms.

 

theist

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

One should not force restraint on others. At the same time, we should understand that if we maintain certain material attachements we are on a very low level of bhakti. We should not try to justify our own weaknesses and advertise them as virtues.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by jndas:

One should not force restraint on others. At the same time, we should understand that if we maintain certain material attachements we are on a very low level of bhakti. We should not try to justify our own weaknesses and advertise them as virtues.

 

 

Agree.

 

Even for those who have material attachments, daiva varnashrama system is better suitred than modern day concept of sexual enjoyment. Much of it is only hype.

[karthik_v]

Jijaji:

 

I certainly think grhasta life in Gaudiya Vaishnava society needs to be stripped of the renunciate influences from the sanyass ashram.

 

I agree 100%. That is why I always keep asking for shastric (shruti) basis for restraint from sex in grahastha order. Though you are the resident iconoclaust, I don't hink you are a rabble-rouser. I think you have valid points here. I already mentioned about highly erotic sex in our scriptures and also sculptures in our temples as well as the fact that before GV no acarya ever objected to sex within marriage. In fact, some of the vedic mantras recited during marriage are from Rk veda and those mantras require the husband to say, among many things, that he will satisfy his wife sexually and also the wife repeats the same w.r.t her husband. It is another story that these mantras aren't recited in GV/ISKCON temples during marriages Since restriction on sex within marriage first comes up with GV, one should offer scriptural evidence and also explain why GV line varies from the tradition. I believe that a lot of these restrictions are due to Islamic influence. Allah O Akbar

 

Ram:

 

Well, animals cannot create devotees.

 

How about the animals that helped Rama construct the bridge?

 

In all the traditions of vedanta, there is mantra for sex as there is tantra. We are all focussed, in the modern day, with the tantra of sex alone - candle light dinners, what not. And focussed on the enjoyment of the moment. Even in tantra, some of the great yogis say that by controlling the prana one can have sex for hours and even orgasm for hours. Of course, they always say experience of the divine is superior to these.

 

Perhaps, your use of the word tantra is ambivalent. If you take tantric works like Tirumantiram, there is direct advice on enjoying sex, at a physical level, by controlling prana. I haven't seen in that work anything that says that sexual experience is inferior to spiritual. In fact, it says that sexual experience is one of the many experiences of the Divine. Please read the verses between 2900 and 3000 and also the complete tantra 9.

 

Even we can experience a fraction of this by simple practices. What is more interesting is that the vedic people had a great focus on the mantra. Every vedantic tradition insists that we chant the mantras. These mantras are very powerful in producing auspicious babies if offered with faith and devotion to the Supreme.

 

Yes, mantras were certainly there, but this over emphasis on the rituals is due to Sayanacarya. If you read other interpretations, you get a different picture.

 

Sex like any other activity will make us happy depending on the consciousness in which we do. Higher the consciousness, higher our happiness.

 

Provided we do it Then, GV/ISKCON teachings are often for exercising restraint.

 

In modern day people are forced to plan their families for financial reasons because of the complexity of modern life. But in the vedic life people were never afraid of having sex and considered children as a blessing.

 

I am not sure. Lord Rama and Sita had their children 20 years after marriage. Many rshis enjoyed sex with their wives and yet had just one or two children. Ayurveda talks of many methods of contraception. Also, don't forget that prostitution is the oldest profession in the world. If contraception didn't exist, every prostitute would have gone out of business in a month.

 

One who goes and tells one wife that she can have as many devotee children as she wants will inspire confidence in her that he is a real man.

 

Assuming that such a man is lucky enough to find a wife in the first place, such a marriage will end in strife.

 

It will also make the women of the family follow religious acts with more faith.

 

A seriously disagree. A grahastha who refrains from enjoying passionate sex with his wife will never be intimate with his wife. Period. Please read about Ahalya and Gautama. There is a lesson out there. Also, it is a myth that such refraining will make the wife more religious. Women operate within a bandwidth. They neither become over religious nor over atheistic. They have a high emotional quotient. Instead of wasting his time in making his wife refrain from sex, such a practitioner should not marry in the first place. When was it last that you ordered a hamburger at McDonald's and then took a vow that you won't eat it? I think that there is a serious problem when a grahastha becomes a renunciate or starts going that way. It invariably leads to broken families or less intimate ones. Sex is to be enjoyed to its fullest, with varieties, between a husband and his wife. Atleast, that is what our Kamashastras teach.

 

But one who is afraid of having children and indulges in contraception - the wife will understand because the modern day life is $ centric and people have urges - but it will be not be same as having children.

 

Everyone has n number of children but has sex many more times than that. As Jijaji correctly said, having sex for procreating is animalistic. The prime purpose of sex is enjoyment, within marriage. In fact, a marriage where the couple enjoy passionate sex, often, and have fewer children when they want to have them, will be a happy marriage. Such sexuality is not against religion and is not an obstacle in the path to KC. Also note that abominable acts like abortion are very different from contraception.

 

It is terrible that many youngsters are given lopsided ideas about sex during their impressionable years. Many of them may never be able to relate to their spouses when it comes to normal sexuality.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by jndas:

One should not force restraint on others. At the same time, we should understand that if we maintain certain material attachements we are on a very low level of bhakti. We should not try to justify our own weaknesses and advertise them as virtues.

 

 

Agreed. A valid point. Any material attachment is an obstacle to realization. Be it attachment for sex, money, college degree etc..

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Then, GV/ISKCON teachings are often for exercising restraint.

This is mainly because the path stressed in Gaudiya Vaishnavism is nivritti-marga (the path of liberation), as opposed to pravritti-marga (the path of entangling sense enjoyment). Those who are interested in pravritti-marga are offered many flowery words in the vedas, but devotees of Lord Krishna should not be bewildered by them. That is Krishna's instruction to Arjuna in the second chapter of Gita:

 

trai-gunya-vishaya veda

nistraigunyo bhavarjuna

 

The Vedas primarily deal with mundane knowledge related to the modes of nature (i.e. karma-kanda, or pravritti-marga). Arjuna is warned of this, and advised to rise above those instructions and come to the platform of jnana. Bhakti by definition is situated beyond both karma and jnana, i.e. it is the perfect conclusion of knowledge, not that it is lacking knowledge. To come to the platform of bhakti one must become free from the influence of fruitive inclination, and transcend the platform of speculative inquiry. Arjuna is thus told by Lord Krishna to rise above the instructions pertaining to karma-kanda and to come to the level of Jnana, or the Vedanta of the Upanishads.

 

 

Saints such as Sri Rupa Goswami have offered us very pertinent instructions in their writings, instructions that are in fact nectarean (or in other words "upadeshamrita"). Why they are described as nectarean? Because there are countless other instructions given in the Vedas that are actually poison, and Sri Rupa Goswami has saved us from that poison by presenting us with those essential instructions meant for advancing our devotion to the Lord.

 

In his first nectarean instruction, Sri Rupa Goswami explains to us that to advance in devotion we must learn to conquer the six urges of our conditioned consciousness. He defines these urges (as mentioned in another thread) as follows:

 

vaca vega (urges of speach)

manasa vega (urges of the mind)

krodha vega (urges of anger)

jihva vega (urges of the tongue)

udara vega (urges of the belly)

upastha vega (urges of the genitals)

 

Certainly it may be difficult, or nearly impossible for us to conquer these urges, but it is essential to advance in bhakti, or rather to actually develop true bhakti. This is what the path of nivritti-marga is about - becoming free from the material attachment of trying to replicate God, i.e. engage in "controlling enjoyment". Every aspect of these six urges is our attempt to assume the position of predominator over the divine energy. Being infinitesimal in nature, we will always fail in our attempts. But as pointed out by one other devotee on these forums, the real entanglement comes from the karma-vasana created in our inner-consciousness - a pollution that may take countless lives to become free from.

 

Our aim in life should be to purify ourselves so that we may develop true attachment to Lord Krishna. While following a path of sadhana, a life of vows, we should not try to convince ourselves of the apparent benefits of the pravritti-marga (the path of entanglement, which we are fighting against). It is like taking medicine and poison at the same time. Medicine may cure poison, but why should one continue to take the poison, thinking that the medicine will cure it. Pravritti-marga and Nivritti-marga are incompatible, as much as matter and spirit are incompatible.

 

Devotees should aim to develop true detachment from matter. What ever regulations are favourable for this should be followed. We may not be able to free ourselves from the six urges of conditioned consciousness, but we should at the very least understand that they are faults or anarthas which must be purified for us to advance in spiritual life and devotion.

 

If we are unable to do this, then we should take shelter of hearing the narrations of Lord Krishna's pastimes, for the Bhagavatam recommends this as the greatest method to remove the anarthas from our heart:

 

shrinvatam sva katha krishna

punya shravana kirtanah

hridyanthastho hy abhadrani

vidhunoti suhrit satam

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-05-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

In fact, a marriage where the couple enjoy passionate sex, often, and have fewer children when they want to have them, will be a happy marriage. Such sexuality is not against religion and is not an obstacle in the path to KC.

Both statements are highly speculative and incorrect according to Vedantic views. You seem to hold the opinion that material enjoyment leads one to satisfaction or happiness (in this case within marriage), but this is not a teaching of the Gita.

 

A true happy marriage will be one where in the people are God realized. I really can't get much vaguer than that, as it is really just a fundamental principle of Vedanta, of which the Gita is the essence.

 

Atleast, that is what our Kamashastras teach.

Its really a matter of what is the goal of one's life. The prayojana of Gaudiya Vaishnavas is Krishna Prema, and as such they follow the bhakti-shastras such as Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam (as opposed to the Kama-shastra). These teachings are much more relevant and useful for the modern times, as devotion is our actual need. Unfortunately we sometimes fail to realize what is in our own self interest: na te viduh svartha gatim hi vishnum. We must learn to distinguish between preyas and shreyas, for one will lead us to bondage, and the other to liberation.

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-05-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Hari Bol J N Das Prabhuji,

 

The Vedas primarily deal with mundane knowledge related to the modes of nature

 

I am surprised that you have made this statement. True that Atharva veda deals with many mundane things, but the three primary vedas don't deal with mundane things. In fact, even literal translation of the vedas is incorrect. They are metaphorical and Rk veda itself says that:

 

catvAri vAk parimitA padAni tAni vidurbrAhmaNA ye manISiNaH

guhA trINi nihitA neN^gayanti turIyaM vAco manuSyA vadanti

 

Translation: Speech or word was divided into four parts. Three parts, which are hidden, mortals do not activate; the fourth part they speak.

 

So, I don't know why you say that the vedas deal with mundane things. Atleast that is not what I ahve read in the writings of great saints who wrote in Tamil in Sanskrit. In fact, all are categorical that the vedas don't deal with this world at all and their real meaning is imparted through its mystical hymns to the realized seers.

 

Because there are countless other instructions given in the Vedas that are actually poison, and Sri Rupa Goswami has saved us from that poison by presenting us with those essential instructions meant for advancing our devotion to the Lord.

 

I don't know which vedic injuction can be poisonous. In fact SP himself wanted to recreate vedic lifestyle. Every acarya has wanted to do that.

 

Thanks for quoting Rupa Goswami on upastha vega. But, I am interested in knowing if that applies to grahasthas. If so, did previous acaryas like Sri Ramanujacarya and Sri Madhvacarya speak about restrictions in grahastha sex life? I agree with you that one has to transcend sex to realize Krishna, but my primary contention is that a person who gets into grahastha order is light years away from being there. So, how can he give up sex? Also, is it possible for someone attached to even gross things like money and job to give up sex?

 

Both statements are highly speculative and incorrect according to Vedantic views. You seem to hold the opinion that material enjoyment leads one to satisfaction or happiness (in this case within marriage), but this is not a teaching of the Gita.

 

True I am speculating, but that has atleast some basis in shastras. But I don't believe that material enjoyment leads to spiritual happiness. Sorry for not communicating that. I am only for accepting our nature as it is. I am against artificial repression through severe indoctrination. Not that I believe that my position is to be justified as ideal. It is not, but it is devoid of hypocrisy.

 

A true happy marriage will be one where in the people are God realized. I really can't get much vaguer than that, as it is really just a fundamental principle of Vedanta, of which the Gita is the essence.

 

Perfect agreement.

 

Its really a matter of what is the goal of one's life. The prayojana of Gaudiya Vaishnavas is Krishna Prema, and as such they follow the bhakti-shastras such as Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam (as opposed to the Kama-shastra). These teachings are much more relevant and useful for the modern times, as devotion is our actual need. Unfortunately we sometimes fail to realize what is in our own self interest: na te viduh svartha gatim hi vishnum. We must learn to distinguish between preyas and shreyas, for one will lead us to bondage, and the other to liberation.

 

I am not saying that we should replace SB or BG with Kamashastras. My point is that those shastras have never been objected to by previous acaryas (pre-GV). They are depicted in all temples. Does it not suggest that our acaryas never found anything wrong with sex in mariage? True, one will lead to bondage, whereas the other will liberate. But artificial repression doesn't help either. Also, repression due to heavy indoctrination against is dangerous. I don't believe that we can overcome bondage to sex by hating it. Saints transcend sexual urges. They are so much beyond that, that it doesn't bother them. A grahastha, by definition, is bonded to sex. So, in my opinion, he should enjoy sex with his wife and try to serve Krishna.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by jijaji:

Sex for pro-creation only is on the animal level, because that is the ONLY way animals can have sex. Animals do not MAKE LOVE with candle-lite or with sexy jazz.

In the Human species SEX can bring more meaning and warmth to life, more positive feelings for one's mate and also helps ones' self-esteem which comes about by naturally responding to the opposite sex in a natural, healthy way.

Just watch animals having sex sometime, it is NOT fun for them it is labored work and quite unerotic.

 

Well, animals cannot create devotees. In all the traditions of vedanta, there is mantra for sex as there is tantra. We are all focussed, in the modern day, with the tantra of sex alone - candle light dinners, what not. And focussed on the enjoyment of the moment. Even in tantra, some of the great yogis say that by controlling the prana one can have sex for hours and even orgasm for hours. Of course, they always say experience of the divine is superior to these. Even we can experience a fraction of this by simple practices. What is more interesting is that the vedic people had a great focus on the mantra. Every vedantic tradition insists that we chant the mantras. These mantras are very powerful in producing auspicious babies if offered with faith and devotion to the Supreme.

 

Sex like any other activity will make us happy depending on the consciousness in which we do. Higher the consciousness, higher our happiness.

 

In modern day people are forced to plan their families for financial reasons because of the complexity of modern life. But in the vedic life people were never afraid of having sex and considered children as a blessing. One who goes and tells one wife that she can have as many devotee children as she wants will inspire confidence in her that he is a real man. It will also make the women of the family follow religious acts with more faith. But one who is afraid of having children and indulges in contraception - the wife will understand because the modern day life is $ centric and people have urges - but it will be not be same as having children.

 

Not that you dont know all these but it is always a help to have an external reminder.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-05-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Having said that I am also not for artificial restraint. It comes back in gross forms and disturbs the society. But one should cultivate knowledge and be sincere to oneself so that he can be happy.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-05-2002).]

[jijaji]

EROTIC ART

An important meaning of Kama (kaa-ma, from Sanskrit) is sensuous love, or an emotional feeling of attachment. In ancient Indian thought, it is recognized as the stimulus of action and personified as the god of erotic love (Kamadeva). In the Gita, as in Buddhism, it is the source of attachment to the world and the great impediment to spiritual freedom. For lack of a better word in English, it is better to use term "erotica" to represent Kama, although erotica may essentially connote arousal.

 

Two thousand years ago, sage Vatsayana wrote his landmark manuscript, the Kamasutra (erotic codes). One thousand years later, the Chandella kings (950-1050 A.D.) built one of the finest groups of temples in India, depicting erotic positions, at their capital Khajuraho. About five centuries later, king Kallarasa of Karnataka wrote an important treatise on the subject, "Janavashya" (1450 A.D.) in Kannada language. In today's fast changing world, the values and sanctity attached to erotica and eroticism have also changed. Therefore, it has become necessary to re-evaluate the Erotic Arts of India in their true perspective.

 

Numerous writers, both Indian and foreign, have published their works on eroticism, mostly to feed the curiosity of westerners.

 

To appreciate the erotic arts of India, one must understand the role of sex in the scheme of things according to Hinduism. Hinduism is a way of life according to prescribed codes. Every Hindu has to undergo sixteen dignitary rituals (samskara) and four stages of life (ashramas). The final aim of life is salvation, which is the merging of the individual soul (atma) with the supreme soul (param-atma). One can attain salvation (Moksha) through Dharma, Artha and Kama (Religion, wealth and sex). The ancient Indians took a healthy, integrated view of all aspects of life and gave sex its due importance in the overall picture. The pursuit of pleasure (kama) is one of the important aims of life, on the path to deliverance.

 

Figures of loving couples (mithuna) in various art forms can be found in the very early periods of Indian civilization. This theme has been depicted consistently for thousands of years throughout India. Such sculpture can be found on the shrines of Buddhist, Jain, Vaishnava, Shaiva, Shakti, and also other cults, which proves its trans-religious nature. Mithuna is like any other life process and hence no taboo or inhibitions are attached to it. The worship of genitalia has been prevalent for centuries and it is considered a part and parcel of Hindu worship

 

Due to their delicate nature, only a few paintings survived the onslaught of time and climatic hazards. The Narasimha Swamy temple of Sibi has such rare wall paintings. In the last century, the kings of Mysore brought out some books of great importance, which are profusely illustrated with erotic art. Ancient books such as "Sougandhikaparinaya" and "Shritatwanidhi" contain illustrations, which are indirect and suggestive, and yet very modest. Indian miniatures such as Basholi, Kangra and Rajasthani styles have produced innumerable erotic paintings to cater to their rich clientele.

 

The sculptural wealth has remained intact for centuries in spite of vandalism and mutilation by religious fanatics. The erotic sculptures of Kahjuraho (in Madhya Pradesh) and Bhubaneshwar (Orissa) have been widely publicized, while others are almost unknown. In Karnataka State alone, there are a large number of such temples and sculptures, which will be studied individually.

 

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by jijaji:

EROTIC ART

An important meaning of Kama (kaa-ma, from Sanskrit) is sensuous love, or an emotional feeling of attachment. In ancient Indian thought, it is recognized as the stimulus of action and personified as the god of erotic love (Kamadeva). In the Gita, as in Buddhism, it is the source of attachment to the world and the great impediment to spiritual freedom. For lack of a better word in English, it is better to use term "erotica" to represent Kama, although erotica may essentially connote arousal.

 

Two thousand years ago, sage Vatsayana wrote his landmark manuscript, the Kamasutra (erotic codes). One thousand years later, the Chandella kings (950-1050 A.D.) built one of the finest groups of temples in India, depicting erotic positions, at their capital Khajuraho. About five centuries later, king Kallarasa of Karnataka wrote an important treatise on the subject, "Janavashya" (1450 A.D.) in Kannada language. In today's fast changing world, the values and sanctity attached to erotica and eroticism have also changed. Therefore, it has become necessary to re-evaluate the Erotic Arts of India in their true perspective.

 

Numerous writers, both Indian and foreign, have published their works on eroticism, mostly to feed the curiosity of westerners.

 

To appreciate the erotic arts of India, one must understand the role of sex in the scheme of things according to Hinduism. Hinduism is a way of life according to prescribed codes. Every Hindu has to undergo sixteen dignitary rituals (samskara) and four stages of life (ashramas). The final aim of life is salvation, which is the merging of the individual soul (atma) with the supreme soul (param-atma). One can attain salvation (Moksha) through Dharma, Artha and Kama (Religion, wealth and sex). The ancient Indians took a healthy, integrated view of all aspects of life and gave sex its due importance in the overall picture. The pursuit of pleasure (kama) is one of the important aims of life, on the path to deliverance.

 

Figures of loving couples (mithuna) in various art forms can be found in the very early periods of Indian civilization. This theme has been depicted consistently for thousands of years throughout India. Such sculpture can be found on the shrines of Buddhist, Jain, Vaishnava, Shaiva, Shakti, and also other cults, which proves its trans-religious nature. Mithuna is like any other life process and hence no taboo or inhibitions are attached to it. The worship of genitalia has been prevalent for centuries and it is considered a part and parcel of Hindu worship

 

Due to their delicate nature, only a few paintings survived the onslaught of time and climatic hazards. The Narasimha Swamy temple of Sibi has such rare wall paintings. In the last century, the kings of Mysore brought out some books of great importance, which are profusely illustrated with erotic art. Ancient books such as "Sougandhikaparinaya" and "Shritatwanidhi" contain illustrations, which are indirect and suggestive, and yet very modest. Indian miniatures such as Basholi, Kangra and Rajasthani styles have produced innumerable erotic paintings to cater to their rich clientele.

 

The sculptural wealth has remained intact for centuries in spite of vandalism and mutilation by religious fanatics. The erotic sculptures of Kahjuraho (in Madhya Pradesh) and Bhubaneshwar (Orissa) have been widely publicized, while others are almost unknown. In Karnataka State alone, there are a large number of such temples and sculptures, which will be studied individually.

There is no competing the fact that one freed from sex desire, is almost liberated.

 

The only question is of being sincere to oneself. I cannot preach what I do not practice. My mind is dwelling on sense objects on one hand, and on the other I am quoting from shastra left-right, top-bottom, that one shd be a complete celibate OR calling grihastas as fallen souls. Preaching fanatically abt how somebody spits on the thought of sex and so on. But inside I am like the guru who was planning to run away with his pretty disciple.

 

I feel that the approach shd be down to earth. Its conveyed in the single message "preach what you truly practice, and what you think the person who you are talking to can practice". ISKCON has lost a lot of face bcos of forcefully making brahmacaris and sannyasis of people who were never qualified for this job.

 

Its a great ideal, but not for the masses. This is my understanding.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I agree with you that one has to transcend sex to realize Krishna, but my primary contention is that a person who gets into grahastha order is light years away from being there. So, how can he give up sex? Also, is it possible for someone attached to even gross things like money and job to give up sex?

If we agree that sex must eventually be transcended, and that it is an impediment for liberation (which is the goal of life), then we should agree that it must be gradually regulated or disciplined for the purpose of eventual renunciation. We must do this for everything, not just sex. We must give up our attachment to money through the same process, specifically charity. We must give up our attachments to food through regulated offerings to God. What is the difference between karma-yoga and bhakti-yoga? Externally they both look the same, and Krishna is the center of both. In karma-yoga you are serving Krishna with your own interests in mind, whereas in bhakti-yoga you are serving Krishna with His interest in mind.

 

Everything revolves on what is the purpose of our life. Are we serious for liberation, or are we just interested in performing dharma (which will elevate us to higher forms of life). Those who take to the Gaudiya Vaishnava path are specifically those who have surrender to Krishna as the ultimate goal of their life. Sharanagati is not just a catch phrase that we talk about, but it must actually involve physical surrender to Lord Krishna. If we truly want to realize Lord Krishna in this very life, then we must be serious about our spiritual sadhana and practices. We must accept everything which is favourable for remembering Krishna, and reject everything that is unfavourable for remembering Krishna. This is why rules and regulations are introduced in the scriptures and by the acharya's. The grihastha ashram is meant for regulating sex life, not for increasing our attachment to it. As the Gita teaches, lust is an all-devouring enemy that is unsatiable. Thus it must be regulated. It is not that by satisfying lust one will become free from it, rather it is like pouring fuel on a fire. It will increase the desire in our heart, and ultimately lead us to frustration (since we factually cannot be satisfied through the external body). Thus regulation of all material activities is essential, to limit further contamination to our already polluted consciousness; and simultaneously spiritual sadhana is necessary to purify the anarthas already present in the heart.

 

We will know if our sadhana is genuine by how much we become free from sex desire.

 

It is not a case of artificial repression, but rather a case of spiritual advancement and realization. By becoming factually attached to a real Krishna, the Supreme Person in reality, we automatically become detached to maya and all forms of illusion such as sense enjoyment. But to come to this point, there must be a designated system of purification. This is what the acharya's in the Gaudiya line have given us, rules and regulations combined with potent sadhana to bring about a transformation in our hearts.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

This verse came up in another thread, but I thought it was relevant to post here in case others don't read that thread:

 

bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam

tayapahrta-cetasam

vyavasayatmika buddhih

samadhau na vidhiyate

 

"In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place."

 

This is why we must regulate our material activities and live a life of discipline. If our ultimate aim is resolute devotion to the Supreme Lord then it will be impossible to achieve this while maintaining attachment to material enjoyment (bhoga) and material wealth (aishvarya).

 

[Rati]

You neglected to mention the source of your quote, Jijaji. (I assume it was taken from somewhere and not written by you personally.)

 

Can you tell us? Is it your own?

[abhi_the_great]

jndasji,

 

Of those coming to ISKCON, most are "bhogaisvarya prasaktanam, mayapahrta cetasam" etal.

 

One practical question here, how many of those coming into ISKCON are really worth to be preached abt brahmacarya and sannyasa heavily? How many were brainwashed abt sannyasa and finally fell down. The percentage is quite large, especially in ISKCON. They all read this philosophies and advices, which you have stated. Still why?? Why does ISKCON's name make people to look down at you? Bcos of the fanatic preaching of Sannyasa. That is the only answer. Trying to make celibates of people who have a different nature, not fit for celibacy.

 

It is not nice to make general rules. Some people shd be given the time to grow and gradually come to realise what this means, one cannot push celibacy on to the heads of innocent interested people. It might take a few births even.

 

I understood all the theory and philosophy you gave me. But really, what is the percentage who are on that level? Complete celibacy is a nice ideal, but not for the masses.

 

A person who falls after such persistent brainwashing, when his guru leaves, then he finds himself very worthless and useless and a pain to oneself and society. The mental trauma is intense. He can neither lead a happy spiritual or a material life after this.

 

This is the reason that Bhakti Vinod has stressed on spreading the teachings thru the congregation outside the temple. The families will grow and Srila Prabhupad said, in future we will have more devotees outside the temple than inside the temple. The most practical approach is to develope the congregation.

 

This also works in increasing the number of devotees. Instead of forcing one person join the temple and turning his well wishers and parents against ISKCON, we can encourage him to stay at home and conduct a bhakti-vrksha type of program in his hse, which includes his parents and friends.

 

In Singapore, we witnessed that the number of devotees multiplied faster when all the bachelors got married. Most of the Indian brides did not find it much difficult to accept the process of KC.

 

 

Originally posted by jndas:

bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam

tayapahrta-cetasam

vyavasayatmika buddhih

samadhau na vidhiyate

 

"In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place."

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I just deleted 10 or so posts (all at the end of the thread) that had nothing to do with this discussion, mostly just back and forth insults, something about ozzy ousbourne, and cow dung. Please keep discussions relevant and on track.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

One practical question here, how many of those coming into ISKCON are really worth to be preached about brahmacarya and sannyasa heavily?

Perhaps you are confusing the concept of regulating material life with sannyasa or brahmacarya. No where did I suggest one become a sannyasi, nor did I advocate everyony becoming a brahmacari. The idea is we should regulate our material activities with the intention of gradually becoming free from these anarthas (through sadhana). No one is forced to artificially renounce the world, but at the same time, they should not be complacent and accept their anarthas as virtues. We must all be honest with our selves and understand our fallen positions. Only then are we elligable for Gaura Nitai's special mercy, which can give us the strength to rise up from material attachment.

 

Let us look at the other angle of vision. Someone will promote an idea that we should engage in unrestricted sex within marriage, thinking that one will become satiated and eventually give it up. This is just not true. As mentioned above, the Gita states lust to be unsatiable. The more we engage in material activities, the more entagled we become. The karma-vasanas are imprinted in our consciousness for lives to come, and we slowly descend to lower and lower grades of consciousness (with increased attachement). Srila Prabhupada did not make a rule that was impossible to follow. He did not insist that one renounce the world and live as a sannyasi. He simply said to dovetail you material desires with Krishna's service, engage in sex only for the purpose of procreation. Is that really such a huge sacrifice? Has our sadhana done nothing at all to purify our hearts? After chanting Krishna's divine name for years, are we still the "human-animals" described in the Bhagavatam? We need to have honest introspection, analize how we have improved, and make a sincere committment to advance spiritually day to day.