niyamas of bhakti yoga

[raga]

Now we are talking.

Statement : Which shastra is this proposition based on?

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 2. Actully all upanishads and SB say the same thing, right ?

ajam, vipascin, acalah, avyayam, sthanuh, aham asmi brahmAhamasmi and so on.

The "eternally blissful", where is it from? Do you have any verse using the word "Ananda" for describing the jIvAtma?

 

[raga]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

ram(a) raga(va) ram(a) raga(va) ram(a) raga(va) rakshamam!!

"O ram, O raga, O ram, O raga, O ram, O raga, spare me, spare me!"

 

[abhi_the_great]

Originally posted by karthik_v:

Abhi, that is why I always prefer a simple religion like Islam - no questions, no answers, no disagreements, no confusion. Only injunctions anf fatwas for not complying with them. Ain't it great?

Karthik mullah, ooops prabhu,

Asalam Valaikkum!!!

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by raga:

The "eternally blissful", where is it from? Do you have any verse using the word "Ananda" for describing the jIvAtma?

This is indeed the best question that has been asked so far. Let me try my best to answer to your satisfaction. English is definitely inadequate in expressing it. I am expressing it on the hope that it will not lead to semantic arguments here. Please read patiently.

 

A transendentalist delights in the self - atma rati because there is no bliss except in the self. This shows that the self is filled with bliss due to the Lord and His expansions. But for the Supreme Lord, what is the source of bliss ? raso vai sah. His own self is the cause of His bliss.

 

It has been already established that the liberation and bondage of the self is but an illusion. The only true state of the self is the transcendental state. The state of bondage and liberation are illusory.

[theist]

ram,

 

So the atma has its bliss and the Lord His.But how is it experienced? Is it expandable or stagnant(as in steady state)?Is it shareable?That is if ananda is part of what constitutes the atma can that be given to the Lord, as in the giving of oneself to another?

[gHari]

Originally posted by ram:

[...] It has been already established that the liberation and bondage of the self is but an illusion.

Who knows of this illusion of the bondage and liberation of the self, and to what does the 'self' refer.

 

Who is experiencing the 'bliss' while I'm here?

 

Where was the word 'ananda'?

[gHari]

Originally posted by ram:

[...] Who returns and does not return ? You may say, an atma who goes to the Supreme Abode of the Lord does not return. Then it appears that bondage has no beginning but an end. Liberation has a beginning but no end. But has it not been said that that which has a beginning is sure to end. This makes bondage and liberation successive, making liberation temporary - just like the case of Jaya Vijaya, who fell down temporarily albeit by the will of God. But liberation is said to be permanent!!!

Ram, is this sastra "But has it not been said that that which has a beginning is sure to end"? That would certainly be nice, since I've never felt too intuitive about the logic of infinities, even in mathematics.

 

I assume that your "!!!" was noting the apparent paradox.

[gHari]

Of course, asat is often translated as 'illusion'. I am always hesitant, and eager that it is also read as 'temporary', based on the third of Madhvacarya's nine precepts:

From A garland of Vaisnava Truths

 

Question: What are the names of these nine instructions given by Sri Madhvacarya?

 

Answer: Their names are thus:

 

<UL>1) Bhagavan alone is the Supreme truth, one without a second.

2) He is the object of knowledge in all the Vedas.

3) The universe is real [satya].

4) Differences [between Isvara, jiva and matter] are real.

5) Jiva souls are the servants of Lord Hari.

6) All souls are different according to their different situations.

7) Liberation [moksa] is the name of attainment of Bhagavan's feet.

8) Bhagavan's pure worship [amala bhajana] is the only way to attain liberation.

9) Pratyaksa [direct perception], anumana [logic], and sabda [spiritual sound] are the three types of evidence.

After all, it is in this temporary cosmic manifestation that the Lord constantly performs His Nitya-Lila.<font color="#dedfdf">

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 06-13-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by theist:

ram,

So the atma has its bliss and the Lord His. But how is it experienced?

 

Let us discuss this in detail later. Right now, let me just say it is experienced through His pastimes. These actions are in reality inaction.

Originally posted by theist:

Is it expandable or stagnant(as in steady state)?

 

Always full and ever expanding. The root word of brahman means to grow. But this growth is not a defect. purnam adah purnam idam. The "cause" is complete and also the "effect" but there is neither cause nor effect as we think of it in ignorance.

 

Originally posted by theist:

Is it expandable or stagnant(as in steady state)? Is it shareable?That is if ananda is part of what constitutes the atma can that be given to the Lord, as in the giving of oneself to another?

The notion of giver and taker is possible only if there is complete bheda.There is nothing to give or take in our limited sense where giver has more and the receiver has less. But bliss is ever expanding.

 

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-13-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by gHari:

Ram, is this sastra "But has it not been said that that which has a beginning is sure to end"? That would certainly be nice, since I've never felt too intuitive about the logic of infinities, even in mathematics.

 

I assume that your "!!!" was noting the apparent paradox.

Yes it is based on sastra. I hope all that I said so far has been in line with the sastras only.

 

nasato vidyate bhavo

na bhavo vidyate satah

ubhayor api dristo 'ntas

tv anayos tattva-darsibhih

 

Yes it is to show the apparent paradox. Even SP has written about it (liberation and bondage) as coming and going of the waves on the shore in the mail that you sent. It is not to say that bondage and liberation are false. They are real in this dream world from our perspective. The sastras clearly say that the Self is unborn and that the states of bondage and liberation pertain only to the dream world. It is also reasonable from a practical stand point. If there is a real problem, then how would the Lord allow it to happen ? He is karunAmUrthy. The problems are illusory and so the solution.

 

None of us can understand infinity from a finite stand point. So you are not alone -

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by gHari:

Who knows of this illusion of the bondage and liberation of the self, and to what does the 'self' refer.

 

jnaninas tattva darshinah. ubau tau vijanIto. Even in this world, both can be seen by jnani (a pure devotee is endowed with jnana). They will tell us as much as we can understand. The wise would not disturb us.

 

There are two meanings of self. The Self is the Atma in our body. It is brahman by nature. The second meaning is the illusory personality born in this world. And he can, blessed with knowledge by Him, sees the Self and the illusory self. This is the state of samAdhi. Even though he retains the material body due to prArabhda karma, with his purified mind intellect and conquest over ahankArA, he is able to relish the self in this dream world itself - atma rati. This is called jIvan mukti.

 

Originally posted by gHari:

Who is experiencing the 'bliss' while I'm here?

 

The Self experiences the bliss. You,the illusory self, is here.

Originally posted by gHari:

Where was the word 'ananda'?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by gHari:

Of course, asat is often translated as 'illusion'. I am always hesitant, and eager that it is also read as 'temporary', based on the third of Madhvacarya's nine precepts:

After all, it is in this temporary cosmic manifestation that the Lord constantly performs His Nitya-Lila.

 

[This message has been edited by gHari (edited 06-13-2002).]

asat is translated as an illusion based on the nasato verse. But there is also the direct reference in the fisrt sloka of Bhagavatham - tejo vAri mRtam yatA. There are many others which Raga threw in even in this discussion. Also, it is the only solution to the problem of evil. If the world real and full of problems, then how would our Lord allow evil to prevail ? Or bondage ? Or ignorance, which is the cause of bondage ?

 

This world is not illusory in the sense it is completely unreal. If that were so, there is no need for sAstrAs even. Or any thing. Or the words janmAdasyatah would be meaningless. In this state of ignorance, it is real. If we, the illusory personalities produced by ahankArA, follow the path of ignorance, we will experience the dualities (happiness and distress) of this illusory world. On the other hand, if we go down the path of knowledge and fix our mind on the Supreme Lord, we will experience the Self - atma rati and find satisfaction in the self alone. Obviously the self has to be blissful if it has to be a source of bliss, right ?

 

janma karma ca me divyam. The Lord's appearance is divine. He is beyond the material realm and appears in this world. But He is not in this world. So He is not part of the dream. If He were so, there is no special merit to His words compared to the words of Britney Spears. Or meditating on Britney would bring the same result as meditating on the Lord.

 

Madhva arrives at the world is real based on the fact that this is the inferior nature of the Lord Himself and nothing about the Lord can be unreal. But then he cannot explain why He says the virata rUpA or the universal form is material and temporary. On the other hand, the Lord Himself says that this is His illusory energy. If we have to accept the statement of the acharyas without reference to the sastras, then whom do you choose -Sankara, Ramanuja, Nimbarka, Caitanya, Jesus, Prabhupada and why not Mohammed ? The greatness of the sanatana dharma is that it is based on the sastras, which are eternal. Other religions are religions based on the realization of their preceptors alone.

 

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-14-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-14-2002).]

[gHari]

Ram, if you edit that last invisible post and remove the bit about font color="#dedfdf" then the words will appear. Otherwise people can hold their mouses down over the writing to see the magic message. Should that have been 'mice'?

[Guest guest]

I tried that. It does not work. May the mouse thing will work for every one or the admin could step in.