raga Posted June 5, 2002 Report Share Posted June 5, 2002 Please proceed to explain why one jIvAtma is conscious of matter, and another jIvAtma is not. Please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2002 Report Share Posted June 5, 2002 Originally posted by raga: We have now arrived at the root of all questions, which is likely to resolve everything. Let us return to any subsidiary concerns later. Why some jIvAtmas are nitya-mukta, while others are in a state of bondage, focused on matter? My previous post was an extension to my previous post. Your previous post came after my previous post which makes it look like an answer to your point while it is not.( this I agree is not clear - - not my points ). One has the right to answer in the order in which questions are asked. If the previous answers are not clear and well established, this cannot be answered. Please remove the ambiguities in previous posts before expecting me to answer or concede that I have answered them, if you really believe so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 5, 2002 Report Share Posted June 5, 2002 "One has the right to answer in the order in which questions are asked. If the previous answers are not clear and well established, this cannot be answered." According to this logic, we would have to answer the original question presented before proceeding to discuss matters which help us clarify the answer for the original question. The question I am presenting is integral in discussing any of the earlier posts in this thread. Therefore, please proceed to briefly explain why one jIvAtma is conscious of matter, and another jIvAtma is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 5, 2002 Report Share Posted June 5, 2002 I'm out for today. Tomorrow I hope I will open the thread and read a brief explanation of why one jIvAtma is conscious of matter, and another jIvAtma is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2002 Report Share Posted June 5, 2002 Originally posted by raga: I'm out for today. Tomorrow I hope I will open the thread and read a brief explanation of why one jIvAtma is conscious of matter, and another jIvAtma is not. ajam brief, eh ? - [This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-06-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Originally posted by raga: All well, mind and ahankara are confused, thinking they are the doer. But they are the doer, is it not? After all, that's what it says in the verse, the elements of material nature are declared to be the doer. Why should the mind then be called foolish for thinking it is the doer? I answered that already. The fault that the Lord is pointing out here is that the part thinks it is doer where as the whole is the doer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Originally posted by raga: If the atma has absolutely no relationship with matter, then why is it aware of matter, and not of its eternally liberated position? And if the atma does have a relationship with matter, then what is that relationship, and what is its cause? I have answered all these questions in the earlier posts. Let me restate that differently : The connection is like the connection of a desert (atma) with a mirage (matter). A mirage does not muddy make a desert. One who knows one svarUpA is aware of matter (ignorance) but is actually in knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 To clarify the intent of the question: WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE between one soul who is in bondage and another one who is liberated? Thus WHY. Not since WHEN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Originally posted by raga: To clarify the intent of the question: WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE between one soul who is in bondage and another one who is liberated? Thus WHY. Not since WHEN. May be I am not able to understand your question. "Those souls which are born in the material world are in bondage and those souls which are in the spiritual world are liberated, right ?" The question is why this is so, if the souls are perfect ? Please confirm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Originally posted by ram: From your silence, I reckon you got the answer. Let us chant and be happy. What? For my silence of total seven hours? I am not watching the board 24/7 my friend. The question is: 1. There are souls who are liberated. 2. There are souls who are in bondage. 3. There is a difference between the two. 4. What is the difference? 5. In other words, what is the factor on account of which others experience bondage and others experience liberation? (Is it perhaps the citta-vRtti of the soul, which is focused on either matter or spirit?) I hope you followed this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Did you understand my answer - ajam ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Originally posted by ram: Did you understand my answer - ajam ? It did not answer the question. I asked what is the difference between the two. If soul & its conscious faculty is eternally pure, then how come some are in bondage? Think about one soul who is in bondage, and another one who as attained liberation. What is the difference between the two? WHY is another one in bondage, and what is the factor holding it in bondage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Bondage applies only to those who are born. But the soul by definition is unborn - ajam. There is no question of bondage. [This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-06-2002).] [This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-06-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Could you answer the question on WHY some souls only experience this mundane realm instead of their eternal blissful nature? I mean, like you and I, why are we not fully conscious of our blissful spiritual nature? The soul is eternally pure, and there is no question of bondage for the soul. So, are we not souls? <font color=#cccccc> [This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-06-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Question : Are we not souls ? Answer : Hand is not the soul, nor the leg, nor eyes nor the ear. Nor the mind. Not the intelligence either. But due to ahankara, the mind thinks "I" am the composite of all these. This "I", the material personality is not the soul. Question : Why are "we", "you" and "I", not fully conscious of our blissful spiritual nature? Answer : The material personality "You" are not brahman and so you are not blissful in this state. But this state itself is like a mirage on the desert or a dream - illusory. Question : How do "I", the material personality produced by ahankara, "realize" the true I ? Answer : "Just like a lover yearns for the association of her man, yearn for Him." When mind, intelligence and senses are engaged in His service, by truly knowing Him, the ahankara is also dissolved. Everything becomes brahman because of acquiring His nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Originally posted by ram: Question : Are we not souls ? Answer : Hand is not the soul, nor the leg, nor eyes nor the ear. Nor the mind. Not the intelligence either. But due to ahankara, the mind thinks "I" am the composite of all these. This "I", the material personality is not the soul. Question : Why are "we", "you" and "I", not fully conscious of our blissful spiritual nature? Answer : The material personality "You" are not brahman and so you are not blissful in this state. But this state itself is like a mirage on the desert or a dream - illusory. Question : How do "I", the material personality produced by ahankara, "realize" the true I ? Answer : "Just like a lover yearns for the association of her man, yearn for Him." When mind, intelligence and senses are engaged in His service, by truly knowing Him, the ahankara is also dissolved. Everything becomes brahman because of acquiring His nature. But how is the Atma connected with all this? What does it have to do with all this body, mind and ahankara business? How is it connected with the whole show? Just answer the question I asked, no need to answer other questions. What is the difference between the soul not aware of his nature and the soul aware of his nature? <small> [This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-06-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audarya lila Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Well .... Krsna says that for one who is born death is certain and for one who dies birth is certain. He also tells Arjuna that both he and Arjuna have taken many births and that he remembers all of them while Arjuna does not..... Ram, you seem to be presenting a concept that the soul is off in some perfect sphere and is never in bondage while in actuality it is only the mind and false ego that are bound. I don't find this assertion to be convincing or in accordance with the teaching of Krsna in Bhagavad-Gita. Of course there is always the possibility that I simply misunderstand your presentation. My understanding, based on my readings and reflections on Bhagavad-Gita, is that the soul, jiva-shakti, is conscious. The mind and intelligence are material and only animated based on the soul's identification with them. Spirit is conscious, whereas matter is not. So saying that atma is not the leg, head, mind etc. is correct - but you are conscious of these material objects because you are spirit. The mind and intelligence have no ability to function independent of the soul. Ahankara implies that real ego exists. Identification is a function of the soul. When Krsna speaks of bondage through various types of action do you take it that Krsna is adressing matter and not the spirit soul who is Arjuna? This conversation, dialog, debate - whatever you want to call it - you percieve it with your mind and intelligence, but who is the perciever? The mind and intelligence are material - it is consciousness, spirit, which perceives. I hope you do not take offense to my comments. But these are my honest impressions and reflections on what has been presented in this thread. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa [This message has been edited by Audarya lila (edited 06-06-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Yes, there are souls who are conscious of a certain body. Sri Bhagavan says (Gita 2.17): avinAzi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaM tatam vinAzam avyayasyAsya na kazcit kartum arhati "That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul." Such a soul is called an embodied soul. In other words, a soul in bondage. This bondage is caused by attachment. Whose attachments? No, don't blame the elements, matter does not animate matter. Who is focused on matter? No, don't blame the elements -- they are matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makhanmisri Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Srimad-Bhagavatam, 3.9.25: so ’säv adabhra-karuëo bhagavän vivåddha- prema-smitena nayanämburuhaà vijåmbhan utthäya viçva-vijayäya ca no viñädaà mädhvyä giräpanayatät puruñaù puräëaù “The Lord, who is supreme and is the oldest of all, is unlimitedly merciful. I wish that He may smilingly bestow His benediction upon me by opening His lotus eyes. He can uplift the entire cosmic creation and remove our dejection by kindly speaking His directions.” Purport The Lord is ever increasingly merciful upon the fallen souls of this material world. The whole cosmic manifestation is a chance for all to improve themselves in devotional service to the Lord, and everyone is meant for that purpose. The Lord expands Himself into many personalities who are either self-expansions or separated expansions. The personalities of the individual souls are His separated expansions, whereas the self-expansions are the Lord Himself. The self-expansions are predominators, and the separated expansions are predominated for reciprocation of transcendental bliss with the supreme form of bliss and knowledge. The liberated souls can join in this blissful reciprocation of predominator and predominated without materially concocted ideas. The typical example of such a transcendental exchange between the predominator and the predominated is the Lord’s räsa-lélä with the gopés. The gopés are predominated expansions of the internal potency, and therefore the Lord’s participation in the räsa-lélä dance is never to be considered like the mundane relationship of man and woman. It is, rather, the highest perfectional stage of the exchange of feelings between the Lord and the living entities. The Lord gives the fallen souls the chance for this highest perfection of life. Lord Brahmä is entrusted with the management of the complete cosmic show, and therefore he prays that the Lord bestow His blessings upon him so that he may execute its purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Audarya lila, why should you feel that you are offending e just by speaking what you believe in. From your statement, I hope you have understood what I said, atleast partially, though you disagree. The truth is very simple - the soul is full of knowledge (vipascin) and unborn (ajam). How can one that is full of knowledge and never born be in ignorance or bondage ? This has not been answered by any one. As far as the Lord goes, the Lord's janma is transcendental. As He is the para brahman and aja, he can never be born too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2002 Report Share Posted June 6, 2002 Originally posted by raga: Yes, there are souls who are conscious of a certain body. Sri Bhagavan says (Gita 2.17): avinAzi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idaM tatam vinAzam avyayasyAsya na kazcit kartum arhati "That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul." Such a soul is called an embodied soul. In other words, a soul in bondage. This bondage is caused by attachment. Whose attachments? No, don't blame the elements, matter does not animate matter. Who is focused on matter? No, don't blame the elements -- they are matter. Never did I say that matter has independent existence. Please read my posts on page 3 and 4. prakRti acts due to the gunAs. But it is has no basis but the parabrahman like a mirage on a desert. Without the Supreme Lord, even an atom moves not. This whole illusion has Him as the substratum. If we take your translation of this verse, the soul is indeed bound. But then you cannot resolve the conflict of this meaning with vipascin and ajam, if you care to. Ofcourse, I can show why this translation is incorrect but let us take a step at a time. Please tell me how something that is ajam is ever born and bound by gunAs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2002 Report Share Posted June 7, 2002 From your silence, I reckon you got the answer. Let us chant and be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 7, 2002 Report Share Posted June 7, 2002 Ofcourse, I can show why this translation is incorrect but let us take a step at a time. Please tell me how something that is ajam is ever born and bound by gunAs. dehino ’smin yathA dehe kaumAraM yauvanaM jarA tathA dehAntara-prAptir dhIras tatra na muhyati "As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change." Due to having its citta-vRtti focused on matter, the Atma imagines it is bound. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At any rate, will you please answer the root question at hand? What is the difference between the soul not aware of his nature and the soul aware of his nature? If all souls are vipascin, why some are not aware of it? Please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2002 Report Share Posted June 7, 2002 Statement : This is an erroneous logic because the questioner gives the impression that he knows about suns which are dark. Whereas he has not seen the day at all. You may object : I have heard others say that. Counter : But you have not seen either the sun or dark sun. Same applies to the soul. You may object : But I have shown evidence from the sastras that the soul is born, it becomes ignorant and continuosly passes from one body to another. Counter : By definition the soul is unborn, full of knowledge and never moves. So it is an error in your understanding of the verses if you say the soul is born and it is in ignorance. [This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-07-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted June 7, 2002 Report Share Posted June 7, 2002 If all souls are eternally conscious of their nature, then why do we bother doing any spiritual practices at all? Anyway the soul is aware of his glory forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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