niyamas of bhakti yoga

[Guest guest]

Statement : No, I am not his disciple, and I did not receive initiation from him.

 

Not A Counter : Then it is not a concern. - I thought you rejected him and went.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-09-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Without explaining how the soul which is full of knowledge and unborn becomes ignorant and bound, you are in a dead end. What is the point in raking new topics. Even if I answer them, it may not be useful.

 

Anyway, you are a devotee of the Lord and the Lord will take care of His devotees. There is no need to strain the mind with vedanta.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-10-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-10-2002).]

[gHari]

Please pardon me, and skip this if necessary, but I thought this letter from Srila Prabhupada possibly explains some of the apparent paradox we have uncovered here. Ram, your school may have interesting inputs into a prominent raging Gaudiya debate about whether or not the jiva can fall from Vaikuntha. Anyway, for what it may be worth to the readers here:

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

 

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

 

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

 

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

 

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

 

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

 

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

 

[raga]

Without explaining how the soul which is full of knowledge and unborn becomes ignorant and bound, you are in a dead end. What is the point in raking new topics. Even if I answer them, it may not be useful.

Obviously it does not become, but is so since time beginningless. Once it is established in the pure state, there is no return. "yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama".

 

Will you respond to the excerpt from Brihad Aranyaka Upanishad?

<small>

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-10-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by raga:

Obviously it does not become, but is so since time beginningless. Once it is established in the pure state, there is no return. "yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama".

 

Will you respond to the excerpt from Brihad Aranyaka Upanishad?

 

I am constantly disturbed by the thought that you will lose interest and walk away for want of time and energy. Anyway.

 

Statement : Obviously it does not become, but is so since time beginningless. Once it is established in the pure state, there is no return. "yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama".

 

Response : Who returns and does not return ? You may say, an atma who goes to the Supreme Abode of the Lord does not return. Then it appears that bondage has no beginning but an end. Liberation has a beginning but no end. But has it not been said that that which has a begining is sure to end. This makes bondage and liberation successive, making liberation temporary - just like the case of Jaya Vijaya, who fell down temporarily albeit by the will of God. But liberation is said to be permanent!!!

 

[Guest guest]

Statement :

My bucks are already invested. I only have a few spare cents left to go, and I'll be using them sparingly. Let me give it a try anyway. Let me try this one, explaining the concept of jiva's being "tatastha-shakti" (marginal energy). Some shruti for change.

Response :

What Bhagavatha, going to shruthi ? he he. By the way, who ever "taught" the transcendental subject these days to one who does not have wealth. -

 

Statement : He, remaining the same, wanders along the two worlds, as if thinking, as if moving.

Clarification : Note the words as if thinking, as if moving. This shows the Self is eternally the same ann never moving. This is confirmed by its definition sthanuh also.

 

Statement : During sleep (in dream) he transcends this world and all the forms of death (all that falls under the sway of death, all that is perishable).

Response : Case for Tyelenol PM ? - What kind of sleep ? It has been already said that transcendence is permanent. But sleep in the material world is not permanent. So one understands that it is not the conventional sleep. This is the yoga nidra or sleep in union with the Lord. It is also said that this sleep is attained in the dream! As the dream is unreal, so should the sleep in the dream be. But the transcendence is eternally the same because the Self remains the same.

 

Statement: "On being born that person, assuming his body, becomes united with all evils; when he departs and dies, he leaves all evils behind.

Counter : That which is ajam can never be born. So the Self is never born. But birth happens in the dream, which has been confirmed already.

 

Statement : "For this person, there are two states, one in this world and one in the world beyond. He is in a third, marginal state, the state of sleep. Situated in this position of juncture, he sees both states."

Response : It has been already established that the birth etc., is just a dream. So the state of being in this world and sleeping (samadhi) are both unreal.Samadhi is unreal in the sense it happens in the dream.

 

Statement : From this it is evident that there are different states of being for the jIvAtma, and its eternal, spiritual nature is not mixed with matter (though focused on it), thus remaining unchanged.

Response : Of the different states one is real and eternal. The others are imagined and temporary. There is no question of influence for this reason.

 

Statement : Besides, sarvam khalv idam brahma, it is all various manifestations of brahman, so how could there be any adulteration with something else than brahman!

Response : It is all brahman.

 

Statement : And if it is all brahman, how can there be adulteration in its nature of spirit, even if the jIvAtma were in touch with prakRti through its conscious faculty!

Response : If we apply your purport of sarvam khalv idam brahman there is no difference between meditating on Britney Spears ( hope I spelt right ! ) and meditating on Krishna. Krishna is real and exists. He is brahman. Even though we cannot see Him (as He is brahman by nature and beyond matter ), we can see Him through the sastras - sastram yonitvat & vedais ca sarve aham eva vedyah. I cannot capture Him through mere imagination. On the other hand, Britney Spears I can capture through mere imagination. Britney, I and the imagination are all part of the prakRti. They are unreal. The only thing that exists is brahman - vAsudevam sarvam iti. That is the meaning of sarvam khalv idam brahman.

 

Statement : At any rate, we perceive different states of awareness in the jIvAtma,

Response : Is this not merely your inference because you have not yet seen the Self ? How can you ever perceive the states in the Self because you are that ? A perceiver can experience a state and know about other states as an object of knowledge. But how can one experince simultaneously multiple states ? The sastras clearly say that the states are unreal because they are states in the dream. We are in the sream state. This is the inferior state and so we cannot realize the superior state of liberation. When we are in samadhi, we will be able to understand both. We will never be able to describe in words that state which is our true Self but learn only through the eyes of sastras.

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-10-2002).]

[raga]

Statement : During sleep (in dream) he transcends this world and all the forms of death (all that falls under the sway of death, all that is perishable).

Response : Case for Tyelenol PM ? - What kind of sleep ? It has been already said that transcendence is permanent. But sleep in the material world is not permanent. So one understands that it is not the conventional sleep. This is the yoga nidra or sleep in union with the Lord. It is also said that this sleep is attained in the dream! As the dream is unreal, so should the sleep in the dream be. But the transcendence is eternally the same because the Self remains the same.

Of course the dream is non-permanent and illusory. However, it is stated that the spiritual living entity is in a state of svapna. Whether yoga-nidra with the Supreme or anything else, it is a condition different from being in an active status of servitude in Vaikuntha.

 

[raga]

Statement : Obviously it does not become, but is so since time beginningless. Once it is established in the pure state, there is no return. "yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama".

 

Response : Who returns and does not return ? You may say, an atma who goes to the Supreme Abode of the Lord does not return. Then it appears that bondage has no beginning but an end. Liberation has a beginning but no end. But has it not been said that that which has a begining is sure to end. This makes bondage and liberation successive, making liberation temporary - just like the case of Jaya Vijaya, who fell down temporarily albeit by the will of God. But liberation is said to be permanent!!!

 

There is a discussion on this very topic in the 11th skandha of the Bhagavata. Uddhava is puzzled by the same issue. I'll post some relevant sections here.

<blockquote>SB 11.10.31, 32, 35-37, SB 11.11.1-7

<font color=blue>

guNAH sRjanti karmANi

guNo ’nusRjate guNAn

jIvas tu guNa-saMyukto

bhuGkte karma-phalAny asau

 

The material senses create material activities, either pious or sinful, and the modes of nature set the material senses into motion. The living entity, being fully engaged by the material senses and modes of nature, experiences the various results of fruitive work.

 

yAvat syAd guNa-vaiSamyaM

tAvan nAnAtvam AtmanaH

nAnAtvam Atmano yAvat

pAratantryaM tadaiva hi

 

As long as the living entity thinks that the modes of material nature have separate existences, he will be obliged to take birth in many different forms and will experience varieties of material existence. Therefore, the living entity remains completely dependent on fruitive activities under the modes of nature.

 

 

zrI-uddhava uvAca

guNeSu vartamAno ’pi

deha-jeSv anapAvRtaH

guNair na badhyate dehI

badhyate vA kathaM vibho

 

zrI Uddhava said: O my Lord, a living entity situated within the material body is surrounded by the modes of nature and the happiness and distress that are born of activities caused by these modes. How is it possible that he is not bound by this material encirclement? It may also be said that the living entity is ultimately transcendental and has nothing to do with the material world. Then how is he ever bound by material nature?

 

kathaM varteta viharet

kair vA jJAyeta lakSaNaiH

kiM bhuJjItota visRjec

chayItAsIta yAti vA

etad acyuta me brUhi

praznaM prazna-vidAM vara

nitya-baddho nitya-mukta

eka eveti me bhramaH

 

O my Lord, Acyuta, the same living entity is sometimes described as eternally conditioned and at other times as eternally liberated. I am not able to understand, therefore, the actual situation of the living entity. You, my Lord, are the best of those who are expert in answering philosophical questions. Please explain to me the symptoms by which one can tell the difference between a living entity who is eternally liberated and one who is eternally conditioned. In what various ways would they remain situated, enjoy life, eat, evacuate, lie down, sit or move about?

 

 

zrI-bhagavAn uvAca

baddho mukta iti vyAkhyA

guNato me na vastutaH

guNasya mAyA-mUlatvAn

na me mokSo na bandhanam

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Uddhava, due to the influence of the material modes of nature, which are under My control, the living entity is sometimes designated as conditioned and sometimes as liberated. In fact, however, the soul is never really bound up or liberated, and since I am the supreme Lord of mAyA, which is the cause of the modes of nature, I also am never to be considered liberated or in bondage.

 

zoka-mohau sukhaM duHkhaM

dehApattiz ca mAyayA

svapno yathAtmanaH khyAtiH

saMsRtir na tu vAstavI

 

Just as a dream is merely a creation of one’s intelligence but has no actual substance, similarly, material lamentation, illusion, happiness, distress and the acceptance of the material body under the influence of mayA are all creations of My illusory energy. In other words, material existence has no essential reality.

 

vidyAvidye mama tanU

viddhy uddhava zarIriNAm

mokSa-bandha-karI Adye

mAyayA me vinirmite

 

O Uddhava, both knowledge and ignorance, being products of mAyA, are expansions of My potency. Both knowledge and ignorance are beginningless and perpetually award liberation and bondage to embodied living beings.

 

ekasyaiva mamAMzasya

jIvasyaiva mahA-mate

bandho ’syAvidyayAnAdir

vidyayA ca tathetaraH

 

O most intelligent Uddhava, the living entity, called jIva, is part and parcel of Me, but due to ignorance he has been suffering in material bondage since time immemorial. By knowledge, however, he can be liberated.

 

atha baddhasya muktasya

vailakSaNyaM vadAmi te

viruddha-dharmiNos tAta

sthitayor eka-dharmiNi

 

Thus, My dear Uddhava, in the same material body we find opposing characteristics, such as great happiness and misery. That is because both the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is eternally liberated, as well as the conditioned soul are within the body. I shall now speak to you about their different characteristics.

 

suparNAv etau sadRzau sakhAyau

yadRcchayaitau kRta-nIDau ca vRkSe

ekas tayoH khAdati pippalAnnam

anyo niranno ’pi balena bhUyAn

 

By chance, two birds have made a nest together in the same tree. The two birds are friends and are of a similar nature. One of them, however, is eating the fruits of the tree, whereas the other, who does not eat the fruits, is in a superior position due to His potency.

 

AtmAnam anyaM ca sa veda vidvAn

apippalAdo na tu pippalAdaH

yo ’vidyayA yuk sa tu nitya-baddho

vidyA-mayo yaH sa tu nitya-muktaH

 

The bird who does not eat the fruits of the tree is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who by His omniscience perfectly understands His own position and that of the conditioned living entity, represented by the eating bird. That living entity, on the other hand, does not understand himself or the Lord. He is covered by ignorance and is thus called eternally conditioned, whereas the Personality of Godhead, being full of perfect knowledge, is eternally liberated.</font></blockquote>

Please note that the translations (from the BBT edition) are often not very literal. Therefore the original Sanskrit is included.

[raga]

Madhva comments on 11.11.7:

 

<blockquote><font color=brown>“Beginningless ignorance is blindness. If the jIva is qualified, and there is favorable endeavor, blindness surely has an end. Otherwise, blindness is simply perpetual. Humans and other conditioned souls are [generally] unqualified.

 

“As a rule, there is bondage for all jIvas, and it is certainly eternal. To be bound is to be dependent on ViSNu. Blindness is not to see that.

 

“Now, sometimes blindness will not be eternal. But even for the liberated soul there is bondage, for that is the control of the Lord. The term mukta should be [derived] from duHkha- mokSa, ‘liberation from suffering’. The term baddha [indicates] dependence on Hari. And so even nitya-baddha [eternally bound] souls are liberated because of their liberation from suffering. But the nitya-mukta is one alone: Hari, NArAyaNa, the Lord, because of His independence. Independence belongs to Him alone and no other.” (Quoted from the Mukta-viveka)

 

anAdy-avidyAndhatvaM jIvasya yadi yogyatA prayatnaz cAnukUla(H) syAd antavad bhavati dhruvaM nityam evAnyathAndhatvam ayogyA mAnuSAdayaH baddhatvaM sarva-jIvAnAM niyamAt nityam eva tu baddhatvam viSNv-adhInatvam andhatvaM tad-adarzanam ataH kvacid anityatvam andhatAyA bhaviSyati muktasyApi tu baddhatvam asti yat sa harer vazaH muktAkhyA duHkha-mokSAt syAd baddhAkhyA hary-adhInatA nitya-baddhA api tato muktA duHkha-vimokSataH | nitya-muktas tv eka eva harir nArAyaNaH prabhuH sva-tantratvAt sva-tantratvaM tasyaikasya na cAparaH--iti mukta-viveka.</font></blockquote>Madhva proposes there is eternal bondage for all living entities, since they are eternally dependent on Hari. The brand of bondage may change from a bond of matter to a bond of spirit (which are both Hari's energies), but to be in bondage is the nature of the jIva. What an interesting perspective!

 

[Guest guest]

Statement : The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Uddhava, due to the influence of the material modes of nature, which are under My control, the living entity is sometimes designated as conditioned and sometimes as liberated. In fact, however, the soul is never really bound up or liberated, and since I am the supreme Lord of mAyA, which is the cause of the modes of nature, I also am never to be considered liberated or in bondage.

 

Response : The Self is ever transcendental. The Self is never conditioned or liberated. The Lord who is the Self of all is also never conditioned or liberated. Is this not what I said as translation to the BA upanishad ? The state of bondage and samadhi are in this world. The perfect Self does not have the imperfection of turning away and then towards the Lord.

 

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by raga:

What an interesting perspective!

It is full of devotional mellow. It is so poetic that it captures the heart of everyone incl. Hari perhaps. The Self is bound only in the relative sense.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 06-10-2002).]

[raga]

Is the atma, our atma -- I -- right now located in Vaikuntha, eternally rendering service to Sriman Narayana?<small>

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-11-2002).]

[Audarya lila]

Originally posted by raga:

Is the atma, our atma -- I -- right now located in Vaikuntha, eternally rendering service to Sriman Narayana?<small>

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-11-2002).]

No, certainly not. At least I have never seen any sastric evidence to support such a notion. Are you aware of such service?

 

I was reading a little bit this morning from Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja's book, "The Art of Sadhana". In one place he makes a very clear statement that the mind has no independent existence. There is no cognition without the consciousness, which is spiritual. He elaborates on the issue at hand by stating that it is the atman that gives 'apparent' life to matter. Perception is a function of the soul. Without the presence of the soul there is not thinking, feeling, willing.

 

I know that someone could say that the state of deep sleep in which we continue to exist but during which we are not aware in terms of our normal understanding which is linked to the mind and senses (the body) could indicate that the soul is active in another sphere but that, that 'life' goes on independent and undetected by one illusioned by identification with matter. I think that this type of conjecture would certainly be far fetched and not in keeping with the direct message of Bhagavad-Gita.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Audarya lila (edited 06-11-2002).]

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by raga:

Is the atma, our atma -- I -- right now located in Vaikuntha, eternally rendering service to Sriman Narayana?

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 06-11-2002).]

What time is it in Vaikuntha now ?

[Guest guest]

Audarya, I'm afraid you are disagreeing with something that was never said.

 

That spirit is the basis of matter has never been disagreed by any one.

 

 

[raga]

Originally posted by ram:

What time is it in Vaikuntha now ?

Call Narayana and ask Him. I only know the time in Vraja. I've never descended to Vaikuntha, so I don't know the time zone down there.

 

By the way, it's great to be an atma. Give it a try, folks. Be an atma, be in Vaikuntha. All you need is be.

 

[abhi_the_great]

I think this argument and counter argument is between two people who agree on everything.

 

So, does the soul become polluted or only the ego? And is this ego totally dependent on the soul? If so, is the soul the reason for the polluted ego? So, ultimately is the soul polluted?

 

I did not get any final answer from this long thread. I remain your humble confused servant. By this thread, I have become more confused than I previously was. Confusing questions confusing answers! Lets make a new book.

[abhi_the_great]

ram(a) raga(va) ram(a) raga(va) ram(a) raga(va) rakshamam!!

[raga]

I did not get any final answer from this long thread. I remain your humble confused servant. By this thread, I have become more confused than I previously was. Confusing questions confusing answers! Lets make a new book.

It is called "disagreeing for the sake of agreeing".

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

I think this argument and counter argument is between two people who agree on everything.

 

So, does the soul become polluted or only the ego? And is this ego totally dependent on the soul? If so, is the soul the reason for the polluted ego? So, ultimately is the soul polluted?

 

I did not get any final answer from this long thread. I remain your humble confused servant. By this thread, I have become more confused than I previously was. Confusing questions confusing answers! Lets make a new book.

Abhi, that is why I always prefer a simple religion like Islam - no questions, no answers, no disagreements, no confusion. Only injunctions anf fatwas for not complying with them. Ain't it great?

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

ram(a) raga(va) ram(a) raga(va) ram(a) raga(va) rakshamam!!

Too good. I like it. But unless Raga decides, I am not going to do the rakshamam part. He is the boss.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by raga:

Call Narayana and ask Him. I only know the time in Vraja. I've never descended to Vaikuntha, so I don't know the time zone down there.

 

I am basically pointing out a flaw in your question. If you constantly impose all material qualities like time on brahman, then it will be pointless. Brahman (Krishna) has to be understood through the sastras.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Raga, let me present the basic axioms, which are based on the direct meaning of the sastras. These are intended to clear some of the confusion.

 

1. The Self is unborn, full of knowledge and eternally blissful.

2. This world is like a dream - it is temporary & not real like brahman.

3. In fact, the soul is never really bound up or liberated. (SB 11.10.37)

 

I hope we all agree on this as we are discussing based on the sastras. Your point is that the flaw of the material personality is the flaw of the Self.

 

My point is that the so called flaw is unreal because it is a flaw in the dream. So it may not be attributed to the Self. When the living entity turns inward towards the Self (of all the Supreme Lord), he gives up his illusory personality. Thus, while still here, he realizes his svarUpa. This is the state of samadhi. At that time, both inside and out, He is sees only Vasudeva. Such a great person is very rare. Vasudevam sarvam iti sa mahatma su durlabha.

[raga]

Raga, let me present the basic axioms, which are based on the direct meaning of the sastras. These are intended to clear some of the confusion.

OK. Let's go over them:

 

 

1. The Self is unborn, full of knowledge and eternally blissful.

 

Which shastra is this proposition based on?

 

 

2. This world is like a dream - it is temporary & not real like brahman.

 

Certainly.

 

 

3. In fact, the soul is never really bound up or liberated. (SB 11.10.37)

 

This is not stated in SB 11.10.37. 11.10.37 is Uddhava's question, where he asks about the conceptions of eternally bound and eternally liberated. This is stated in 11.11.1.

 

In the following verse, Bhagavan compares the conceptions of bondage and liberation to a dream, which is a temporary creation of one's intelligence, and has no substance in reality.

 

 

My point is that the so called flaw is unreal because it is a flaw in the dream. So it may not be attributed to the Self.

Just as Bhagavan dreams of the myriads of universes, the jIvAtma dreams of a conditioned life in this world. In 11.11.4, Bhagavan explains how this state of dreaming is the outcome of the jIvAtma's beginningless ignorance. As follows:

 

ekasyaiva mamAMzasya jIvasyaiva mahA-mate

bandho ’syAvidyayAnAdir vidyayA ca tathetaraH

 

"O greatly intelligent one, the bondage of the jIva, my part, is certainly caused by ignorance since beginningless time, and similarly, by knowledge, the opposite is brought about."

 

Thus, although the bondage is illusory and has no substance in reality (sat), the jIvAtma is nevertheless dreaming of this bondage. The "influencing" I spoke about is provoking the jIvATma to wake up from the insubstantial dream.

 

[Guest guest]

Now we are talking.

 

Statement : Which shastra is this proposition based on?

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 2. Actully all upanishads and SB say the same thing, right ?

ajam, vipascin, acalah, avyayam, sthanuh, aham asmi brahmAhamasmi and so on.

 

I apologize for using the wrong index no.