Material knowledge in the Vedas

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The Vedas primarily deal with mundane knowledge related to the modes of nature.

 

I am surprised that you have made this statement. True that Atharva veda deals with many mundane things, but the three primary vedas don't deal with mundane things.

In reality, the Vedas are a desire tree which provide knowledge to all varities of man. Whatever one's desire may be, the Vedas provide one the method for attaining it. It is not that the Vedas deal only with spiritual knowledge. Though the Vedas themself are spiritual sound, and though their ultimate goal is to know Krishna (vedaish ca sarvair ahama eva vedyah), still they present all variaties of knowldge to satisfy the conditioned soul (for the ultimate purpose of regulating material life).

 

The Vedas are roughly divided into three sections, the karma-kanda, the jnana-kanda, and the upasana-kanda. The aim of the karma-kanda portions of the Vedas is to enjoy material life eternally (pravritti-marga). The purpose of the jnana-kanda is to attain the state of monistic liberation. And the purpose of the upasana-kanda is to develop devotion to the supreme. Thus the three paths of karma, jnana and bhakti are all presented in the Vedic texts for the purpose of gradual purification of the conditioned souls.

 

Those with spiritual knowledge (i.e. jnana, or vedanta), understand that material enjoyment (through karma-kanda) is ultimately binding within the material world. Thus they reject it as a poisonous path. It was for this reason that Lord Krishna warned Arjuna in the second chapter of Gita to not be attracted to the flowery words of the Vedas, for they are only providing a material goal in life (i.e. elevation to higher planes of material sense enjoyment). For one who understands the existence of the soul, keeping such a goal of life is certainly disastrous or poisonous. Thus Lord Krishna instructed to Arjuna, keeping his ultimate welfare in mind:

 

yam imam puspitam vacam

pravadanty avipascitah

veda-vada-ratah partha

nanyad astiti vadinah

 

kamatmanah svarga-para

janma-karma-phala-pradam

kriya-visesa-bahulam

bhogaisvarya-gatim prati

 

"Men of small knowledge are very much attached to the flowery words of the Vedas, which recommend various fruitive activities for elevation to heavenly planets, resultant good birth, power, and so forth. Being desirous of sense gratification and opulent life, they say that there is nothing more than this."

 

bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam

tayapahrta-cetasam

vyavasayatmika buddhih

samadhau na vidhiyate

 

"In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination of devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place."

 

Now it becomes clear why some intsructions of the Vedas are poisonous. Thos who follow karma-kanda are attached to bhoga and aishvarya (bhogaisvarya-gatim prati), and Lord Krishna clearly states bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam tayapahrta-cetasam, "For those attached to oppulence and material enjoyment, the resolute determination for devotional service can never take place." It is impossible to advance in devotional service while maintaining these attachments. Thus it is certainly poison. It is for this reason that the great saint Narottama Das Thakur has sung, karma-kanda jnana-kanda kevala vishera bhanda, "The karma-kanda and jnana-kanda paths of the Vedas are simply poison." They destroy one's devotional advancement and therefore must be avoided.

 

Lord Krishna then proceeds to give his concluding instruction to Arjuna on what should be his position inrelation to these poisonous instructions:

 

trai-gunya-visaya veda

nistraigunyo bhavarjuna

nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho

niryoga-ksema atmavan

 

"The Vedas mainly deal with the subject of the three modes of material nature. Rise above these modes, O Arjuna. Be transcendental to all of them. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the Self."

 

The sequence of events is quite clear. Krishna establishes the danger of the karma-kanda path, pointing out that it is impossible to develop resolute devotion while maintaning such attachements. He then states that the Vedas primarily deal with this subject matter of material existence and with the three modes. Finally He concludes by instructing Arjuna to rise above those poisonous instructions keeping his ultimate welfare in mind.

 

In fact, even literal translation of the vedas is incorrect. They are metaphorical and Rk veda itself says that:

 

catvAri vAk parimitA padAni tAni vidurbrAhmaNA ye manISiNaH

guhA trINi nihitA neN^gayanti turIyaM vAco manuSyA vadanti

 

Translation: Speech or word was divided into four parts. Three parts, which are hidden, mortals do not activate; the fourth part they speak.

This verse is actually in reference to the four levels of sound manifested in the soul (para-vak), in the karana-sharira (pashyanti-vak), in the mind (madhyama-vak), and in the physical world (vaikhari-vak). It is not in reference to different meanings to the words. [ For reference on this topic you can see the following article: http://www.indiadivine.com/tattva17.htm ]

 

This quote has absolutely nothing to do with dismissing literal meanings of the Vedas or to suggest there are symbolic meanings in the Vedas. [ You are obviously reading too much Aurobindo ]

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-06-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Hare Krishna J N Das Prabhuji,

 

Thank you for the wonderful posting and the link. I read through them and also the references you had given to BG. Still I have a question:

 

J N Das states:

This verse is actually in reference to the four levels of sound manifested in the soul (para-vak), in the karana-sharira (pashyanti-vak), in the mind (madhyama-vak), and in the physical world (vaikhari-vak).

One of the 3 levels you have mentioned is madhyama-vak, which occurs in the mind. If something occurs in the mind is it not perceptible to us? If you see the translation of Sri Aurobindo, it sas that they are not perceptible to us. I checked into the translation of Sayanacarya, which I produce below, and it seems to match Sri Aurobindo.

 

Four are the definite grades of spech; those Brahman.as who are wise know them; three, deposited in secret, indicate no meaning; men speak the fourth grade of speech. [Four are: catva_ri va_kparimita_ pada_ni: the language of the mantras, the kalpa, the bra_hman.a and laukika, or current speech (Taittiri_ya Samhita_ 1.31.2); those bra_hman.as: bra_hman.a_ ye mani_s.in.ah: bra_hman.a_ = those acquainted with the s'abdabrahma, brahma as the word, or, the yogis, mystics; fourth grade of speech: va_k, speech, was created fourfold, three kinds of which are in the three regions, the fourth amongst the pas'us; the form on earth, associated with Agni is in the rathantara; the form in the firmament, associated with Va_yu, is in the Va_madevya mantras; that which is in heaven, with A_ditya, is Br.hati_, or in the thunder (stanayitnau); whatever else was more than this was placed amongst the pas'us, lit., animals; here the bra_hman.as are implied: atha pas'us.u tato ya_ va_g atiricyate ta_m bra_hman.es.u adaduh; thus, the bra_hman.as speak both languages, that of the gods and that of man (tasma_d bra_hman.a_ ubharyo va_cam vadanti ya_ ca deva_na_m ya_ ca manus.ya_n.a(m (Nirukta 13.9)].

 

Of course, at times I don't understand what Sri Aurobindo is saying Having said that I must also add that I have read even in old Tamil literature that the vedas carry no literal meaning and are metaphorical. For example a Sangam Tamil poem, Ettutokai Paripadal 19 says:

 

You are the One who can elucidate the mystical hymns of the vedas that are hidden behind the apparent words [Note: Here the poet is praising Lord Muruga].

 

I have also come across in the poems of Thirumazhisai Azhwar where he refers to the vedas as:

 

Those words that cannot be contained in letters. [Note: An obvious reference to the mystical hymns which convey the real meaning to the seers.]

 

I would very much appreciate your comments.

[jijaji]

"Takin it to the Streets"

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

This is a very vast topic, so I don't think I can cover it at once, but I will just mention a few things. First, each verse in the Vedas have multiple levels of meaning, both direct and indirect. All of the meanings are true, not that the external meaning is false. Aurobindo likes to stress the allegorical mystical interpretation of the Vedas, which are valid, but not exclusively valid (i.e. other interpretations remain true). Aurobindo was a spiritual genious in interpreting the Vedic texts, and to be honest, I don't think anyone has a clue as to what he was saying. When you read through his writings, it is something like reading through the English writings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, but in another style. After reading, you are convinced he said something good, but you don't have a clue what it was he said.

 

As far as the Vedas, generally their most obvious levels of interpretation are corresponding to dharma, artha, kama and moksha. Each verse will have a different meaning based on what vision one approaches it with (all visions remaining valid truths). In addition to this, there will be six angles of interpretation based on the six systems of Vedic philsophy (shad-darshanas). Aurobindo's interpretations are those of the yoga-darshana, which was the path he followed.

 

Four are the definite grades of speech; those Brahman.as who are wise know them; three, deposited in secret, indicate no meaning; men speak the fourth grade of speech.

This refers to the fact that three levels of sound are hidden within oneself, unrevealed, whereas only the fourth level of sound (vaikhari) manifests as external speech.

 

The vedas are described in the Bhagavatam as su-durbodham, or nearly impossible to comprehend due to manifesting through four levels of sound. Even the external vaikhari manifestation of the Vedas (which is what we interact with) is nearly impossible for us to comprehend or understand. What to speak of higher manifestations of the Vedas on the other three levels of sound, which ultimately become the reality (i.e. it is not just sound, it is this existence).

 

The Bhagavatam further describes these higher sound manifestations of the Vedas as ananta-param (limitless), gambhiram (deep), durvighayam (unfathomable), and samudra-vat (like a great ocean). In otherwords, it is impossible to understand the complexities of the Vedic mantras as they move from manifesting as external sound, to manifesting as the reality of existence (i.e para-vak, transcendental sound, wherein the sound is the object).

 

In regards to the manifestations of madhyama-vak, it goes much beyond thinking in our mind. It is a factual realm of existence which we have no practical experience of beyond our dreams.

 

In summary, the Vedas do have literal meanings. In other words, there actually is a personality named Indra, who is the controller of the heavens. At the same time, these personalities and occurences of the Vedas all represent certain principles which can be understood only through mystical experience. This is the system of yoga, where the individual is a complete replica of the cosmic universe. Since Aurobindo followed the teachings of the yoga-darshana of patanjali, he stressed this aspect more than the literal, historical aspect of the Vedas.

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-06-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Four are the definite grades of spech; those Brahman.as who are wise know them; three, deposited in secret, indicate no meaning; men speak the fourth grade of speech.

Just compare the translation of this verse with the following paraphrased commentary to Srimad Bhagavatam by Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarthi Thakur (paraphrased by Hridayananda Goswami in his purports):

 

"According to Vedic knowledge, the Vedic sound is divided into four phases, which can be understood only by the most intelligent brahmanas. This is because three divisions are internally situated within the living entity and only the fourth division is externaly manifested, as speech."

 

It isn't a coincidence, it is the exact same verse being cited to explain Srimad Bhagavatam 11.21.36, wherein the four levels of sound (para, pashyanti, etc.) are discussed.

 

In other words, the original verse in discussion does refer to these four levels of sound, and Aurobindo is saying the same thing in a confusing manner.

 

[karthik_v]

Hari Bol J N Das Prabhuji,

 

Originally posted by JN Das:

Just compare the translation of this verse with the following paraphrased commentary to Srimad Bhagavatam by Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarthi Thakur (paraphrased by Hridayananda Goswami in his purports):

"According to Vedic knowledge, the Vedic sound is divided into four phases, which can be understood only by the most intelligent brahmanas. This is because three divisions are internally situated within the living entity and only the fourth division is externaly manifested, as speech."

Thank you for the reference. In the part I have highlighted in bold, is Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarthi Thakur referring to the paramatma?

 

Originally posted by JN Das:In other words, the original verse in discussion does refer to these four levels of sound, and Aurobindo is saying the same thing in a confusing manner.

Just a small correction. That translation was from Sayanacarya. One more question. Which commentary on vedas is normally accepted by GV acaryas and also other Sri Vaishnavas? I guess that they may not vibe well with Sayanacarya because he emphasised more on karma kanda. Is my guess correct?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

In the Gaudiya line there are few commentaries on the Vedas left (which would primarily be particularly on Upanishads). Their focus is more on the Vedanta-sutra, which is the essential explanation of the vedas, and thus more relevant.

 

The bold quote above is in reference to the three levels of sound manifesting in the primal consciousness, karana-sharira, and subtle mind of the individual living entity.

 

Translation: Speech or word was divided into four parts. Three parts, which are hidden, mortals do not activate; the fourth part they speak.

Who is this translation by? I assumed it was by Aurobindo, since you brought up the symbolic meanings of the Vedas right after quoting it, which is a trademark of Aurobindo.

[karthik_v]

: Originally posted by J N Das:

Translation: Speech or word was divided into four parts. Three parts, which are hidden, mortals do not activate; the fourth part they speak.

 

Who is this translation by? I assumed it was by Aurobindo, since you brought up the symbolic meanings of the Vedas right after quoting it, which is a trademark of Aurobindo.

This is by T V Kapali Shastry. Sri Aurobindo varies by only one word. He uses cavernous. The following was by Sayanacarya:

 

"Four are the definite grades of speech; those Brahman.as who are wise know them; three, deposited in secret, indicate no meaning; men speak the fourth grade of speech."