Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

May 7, 2002

Recently,someone asked me "Who is your Guru?

I replied,why do you want to know?

One of his replies was "If you are initiated, you are one of us,your in,if not you'would be out",Implying that Diksa initiation magically transforms the recipient into a realized,educated soul.

This thinking is not a realistic appraisal of the situation.

I have seen people take initiation with zero previous knowledge of Gaudiya siddhanta,

Are they more realized and knowledgable, then someone who has been exposed to Gaudiya Siddhanta for many,many years,without taking Diksa?

Diksa initiation is not a magic wand,It is not like Swami Muktananda's Shakti -pat.

It is a formal bond that gives the initiate, an emotional and fraternal bond to the society of Vaisnavas.

Siksa Posted Image r the message of the Guru,combined with knowledge, and realization are the important factors in

deciding who is "in or out".

The Diksa initiation is helpfull but not critical,to development.

Jagat · May 7, 2002

So why the reluctance to answer the question? The message I get from all your arguments is this: "I am not initiated and yet, everyone should still accept that I am qualified to speak authoritatively about spiritual realization and the devotional path." Is that a correct assessment of what you are telling us?I am glad you brought up the issue of magic. I think that this has some validity and I have discussed it with many people, as the diksha issue is one that has preoccupied me for more than 20 years. I don't know if you have read my articles on the subject, but you may find them interesting. The following article called "Charismatic Renewal in Gaudiya Vaishnavism", which you may or may not find useful.In that article, I have not directly addressed the question of magical transmission of spiritual power in initiation, what Bhaktivinoda called "shakti sanchar," though I think the idea of transmission of charisma is pretty much the same thing. Initiation has a twofold function: transmission of charisma and transmission of legitimacy.Prabhupada himself played down the idea of transmission of charisma, and there are many quotes to this effect. He even made fun of Ramakrishna touching Vivekananda and transmitting an electric current of spiritual realization into his disciple. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, who invented the bhagavati diksha, did so as a rationalization of the initiation process. He ridiculed both the charisma (genuine spiritual realization) and therefore the legitimacy of the existing Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradayas. For him, charisma was the only legitimacy.Nevertheless, in what consists the bhagavati diksha of Siddhanta Saraswati? If we look at the very controversial "initiation" he took from Gaur Kishor Das Babaji, it seems to have consisted in nothing other than shakti sanchar, some kind of blessing to engage in bhajan. Bhaktivinoda Thakur believed in the need for close bodily contact with a spiritual master and direct transmission, which indeed has always been the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, and indeed the tradition in all Hindu sects. The Thakur valued his initiation both from the point of view of charisma and legitimacy. Prior to initiation, he still ate meat and fish, even though he sometimes sat on the Vyasasan and spoke on the Bhagavata. You perhaps know the following story: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>On the morning of April 1, the topic of Raghunath Das Babaji of Hati Akhra, a renounced Vaishnava who lived at the time of Bhaktivinoda Thakur, came up. At the time that Bhaktivinoda Thakur started preaching in Puri, this Raghunath Das opposed his publicly giving discourse on the Bhagavatam since he had not yet been initiated. Not long afterward, Raghunath Das was attacked by fever and then subsequently blessed in a dream by Lord Jagannath Himself. Lord Jagannath appeared and told him that he would be cured of his illness if he took medicine given him by Bhaktivinoda Thakur. Raghunath Das sent a message to the Thakur, who, in the true Vaishnava spirit, came humbly and respectfully to visit him. On his arrival, Raghunath Das said, "You have come. I know that most magistrates (häkim) would normally never come to see a person like me because they think, hä kim? ('Who on earth is he?'). In other words, they are too proud and think, 'I am really something great and this other person is a nobody.'" Raghunath Das then spoke with Bhaktivinoda Thakur for some time and his previous opinion of him completely changed. Raghunath Das’ fever dissipated soon thereafter and from then on he held Bhaktivinoda Thakur in the greatest esteem for the rest of his days. Of course, the sight of a great devotee can cure us of our material disease and give us pure love for Krishna, so this is only a small indication of Bhaktivinoda Thakur's glory. It is said that this Raghunath Das was formerly a Naga sannyasi who later came into contact with Bhagavan Das Babaji of Kalna, by whose grace he was converted to Gaudiya Vaishnavism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Though this story, which took place five or six years before Bhaktivinoda was initiated, is generally taken as an example of his empowerment prior to initiation, it is likely that the Thakur still felt the need for legitimation, as he set out on a long search to find a guru to initiate him. Here is what he himself had to say on the matter: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I had been searching for a suitable guru for a long time, but had not found one, so I was feeling disturbed. Whenever I met someone in whom I could have a little faith, when I studied his teachings and character, I would lose whatever little faith I had. I was quite worried, but Prabhu eradicated these worries in a dream. In that dream, I was given a hint of what would happen, so when I woke up, I felt joyful. A day or two later, Gurudeva wrote me a letter saying, "I will come soon and give you initiation." When he came and performed the initiation rituals, I became cheerful. From that day on the sin of meat eating vanished from my heart and I began to feel a little compassion toward all beings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It is clear from this, not only that Bhaktivinoda felt that he was given legitimacy by the process of initiation, but that he felt empowered by it, as he stopped eating meat at that time only.Siddhanta Saraswati argues that the Bhagavata path is different from the Pancharatra path and that therefore the inspiration to engage in devotional service, what I call "conversion," is the real initiation; i.e., "second birth" means conversion rather than the mere formal reception of a mantra.This opinion appeals to the Ritvikvadis who feel that if initiation is a mere formality, then there is no real need for a living guru. Since Prabhupada is "living in his teachings," anyone can take the real initiation--change of heart, bhakti lata bija, etc.--and that is sufficient. The Pancharatra mantra is simply an afterthought that is meant to facilitate deity worship and such things.To Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, Pancharatra is vidhi marga (thus he turns the tables on the raganuga bhaktas, whose ekadasa bhava, etc., are all very closely connected to initiation and deity worship), while the Bhagavata path of hearing and chanting is the spontaneous process. However, it seems to me that at each step of the process, there is a conversion and a legitimization through some formality. According to Bhaktivinoda Thakur, the so-called "bhajan-diksha" of the raganuga bhaktas comes after lobha has awakened in the heart through hearing and chanting (i.e., after the "Bhagavati" part of the process) and one receives ekadasa bhava from the bhajan siksha guru in order to take up the sadhana, all of which can be seen in the light of a modified Pancharatrika culture of meditation). I don't know if you have been following these discussions, but you may read through the translation of <a href=http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000061.html>chapter 15 of Harinama-chintamani</a> for more details.Though I find there is some rationalistic value to Siddhanta Saraswati's Bhagavati diksha doctrine, it is clear that he himself customarily gave Pancharatrika initiation and that this custom has continued in the Gaudiya Math. No one in the Gaudiya Math accepts the Ritvik philosophy.I myself am of the old school. I think that initiation matters. Like Ekalavya, it is not just you who count. The spiritual relationship is two-way. You have to accept, but you must also be accepted. Sometimes we criticize that this person is initiating the unworthy, and this is admittedly not a good thing. But this does not mean that the worthy should not seek the recognition and blessings of a legitimate spiritual master (as was the case with Bhaktivinoda Thakur) and start chanting the bija mantras, whose glories have been described in the Gopala Tapani Upanishad, Hari-bhakti-vilasa, Brahma-samhita, Narada-pancharatra, Sadhana-dipika, Gaura-govindarchana-paddhati, etc. So why not just come clean instead of beating around the bush? Your servant,Jagadananda Das.

Jagat · May 7, 2002

Originally posted by shiva:

The Diksa initiation is helpful, but not critical, to development.

No. Though there may be a few exceptions to the rule that one must be initiated, they are the exceptions that prove the rule. Are you that exception?

theist · May 7, 2002

Jagat,

Is he the exception?Is that a fair question?Why not just deal with what he says in terms of siddhanta.If he is right then the Lord must be giving it to him.

And its up to you but if you think it is important for shiva may I ask who your guru is?If you don't wish to say I'll respect that.

Myself I'm a reborn Christian who is finding much in GV to learn from.

theist

Jagat · May 7, 2002

Is he the exception? Is that a fair question? Why not just deal with what he says in terms of siddhanta. If he is right then the Lord must be giving it to him.

It is his siddhanta that I am objecting to. Everyone has bad things to say about kanistha adhikaris, because they do mess up quite a bit. But so many seem to think they can just go straight to the uttama adhikari level without taking any intermediate steps.

And it's up to you, but if you think it is important for Shiva, may I ask who your guru is? If you don't wish to say I'll respect that.

I have no objection to answering that. My initiating spiritual master is Sri Lalita Prasad Thakur.

Myself I'm a reborn Christian who is finding much in GV to learn from.

I am glad to hear that you have an open mind about religion. I too learn a lot from Christianity and I wish that more Vaishnavas were aware of not just the Bible, but the whole history of the Christian faith, including the whole field of modern theology. We can all learn from each other.

The whole idea of being born again is significant in nearly all religions. Religious experience is about rebirth. Certain symbols (God, the unconscious, speaks to us in symbols) have a significant effect on the psyche (epiphanies) and we undergo significant change.

Initiation would be analogous to Baptism in evangelical faiths, to First Communion in Catholicism. One makes certain commitments that can be quite wide-ranging in their severity.

The main difference between Christianity and Vaishnavism is that Christians don't place ultimate significance on those who are their living guides on the spiritual path, whereas Vaishnavas do. In practical terms, this may not be as great a difference as all that: a good Christian should see God's work in the actions of the preacher who inspires him to take up the faith. On the other hand, Vaishnavas often have a distant relation with a guru who is a perfect transcendental being in their minds more than in reality.

The spirit of venerating the other devotees to whom one is close has yet to be assimilated by Western devotees. There is a lot of mean-spiritedness and argumentativeness and little reverence for Godbrothers, Godsisters or senior Vaishnavas, whether they are in Western or Indian bodies. Little wonder the movement is not making the kind of progress it should be.

Christians often ask other Christians whether they have been born again. This is a meaningful question among Christians. This question is meaningful because most Christians were born and brought up in a Christian culture (even secularized).

For a Vaishnava, being initiated is proof of seriousness and commitment.

Haribol!

Jagat

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 05-07-2002).]

raga · May 7, 2002

Siksa r the message of the Guru,combined with knowledge, and realization are the important factors in

deciding who is "in or out".

The Diksa initiation is helpfull but not critical,to development.

Shiva, I would like to draw your attention to the following words of Swami AC Bhaktivedanta, since you told us that you accept him as guru. Please do study them these words very carefully, and let us know what you think about them.

And please do understand that the very reason why we are asking is that we have studied your postings carefully and found that on their own merit they can't be given much authority, since many things you have stated are contrary to proper scriptural conclusions handed down through the guru-parampara.

<blockquote>sarva-desa-kala-dasaya janera kartavya

guru-pase sei bhakti prastavya, srotavya

"It is therefore the duty of every man--in every country, in every circumstance and at all times--to approach the bona fide spiritual master, question him about devotional service and listen to him explain the process."

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 25.122

One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential.

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila 1.35, purport

This relationship [with Krsna] is established by connecting oneself with the bona fide spiritual master who is the direct representative of Krsna in disciplic succession. The connection with the spiritual master is called initiation. From the date of initiation by the spiritual master, the connection between Krsna and a person cultivating Krsna consciousness is established. Without initiation by a bona fide spiritual master, the actual connection with Krsna consciousness is never performed.

The Nectar of Devotion

The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the Visnu-yamala:

adiksitasya vamoru krtam sarvam nirarthakam

pasu-yonim avapnoti diksa-virahito janah

"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species."

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 15.108, purport

If one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system.

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Antya-lila 7.53

Unless one inquires about his own self beyond the body and the mind, all his activities in human life are total failures. Therefore out of thousands and thousands of men, one may inquire about his spirit self and thus consult the revealed scriptures like Vedanta-sutras, Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. But in spite of reading and hearing such scriptures, unless one is in touch with a realized spiritual master, he cannot actually realize the real nature of self, etc.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.3.1, purport

In his previous life, when Naradaji was impregnated with spiritual knowledge by the grace of the great sages, there was a tangible change in his life, although he was only a boy of five years. That is an important symptom visible after initiation by the bona fide spiritual master. Actual association of devotees brings about a quick change in life for spiritual realization.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.6.5

Even for a king like Maharaja Pariksit there was need of a spiritual master for guidance. Without such guidance one cannot make progress in spiritual life. The spiritual master must be bona fide, and one who wants to have self-realization must approach and take shelter of a bona fide spiritual master to achieve real success.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.3, purport

The principle of accepting a spiritual master ... is essential. Even for one who takes to devotional service, it is most important. Transcendental life begins when one accepts a bona fide spiritual master. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, clearly states here that this process of knowledge is the actual path. Anything speculated beyond this is nonsense. ... without the instruction of a bona fide spiritual master, one cannot progress in the spiritual science.

Bhagavad-gita As It Is 13.8

A student is to be considered perfected when he understands the identity of the holy name and the Supreme Lord. Unless one is under the shelter of a realized spiritual master, his understanding of the Supreme is simply foolishness.

Teachings of Lord Caitanya

One who is not taught by a bona fide spiritual master cannot understand the Vedic literature. To emphasize this point, Lord Krsna, while instructing Arjuna, clearly said that it was because Arjuna was His devotee and confidential friend that he could understand the mystery of Bhagavad-gita. It is to be concluded, therefore, that one who wants to understand the mystery of revealed scriptures must approach a bona fide spiritual master, hear from him very submissively and render service to him. Then the import of the scriptures will be revealed.

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila 7.48, purport

[One should] approach a bona fide guru who is the representative of the Lord following the parampara system. No one should try to squeeze out his own meaning by imperfect mundane knowledge. The guru, or the bona fide spiritual master, is competent to teach the disciple in the right path with reference to the context of all authentic Vedic literature. He does not attempt to juggle words to bewilder the student. The bona fide spiritual master, by his personal activities, teaches the disciple the principles of devotional service. Without personal service, one would go on speculating like the impersonalists and dry speculators life after life and would be unable to reach the final conclusion.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.37, purport

No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhagavatam says: dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [sB 6.3.19]--the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge.

Bhagavad-gita As It Is 4.34, purport

Sometimes less intelligent men ask whether one has to approach a guru to be instructed in devotional service for spiritual advancement. The answer is given here--indeed, not only here, but also in Bhagavad-gita, where Arjuna accepted Krsna as his guru (sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam). The Vedas also instruct, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] one must accept a guru for proper direction if one is seriously inclined toward advancement in spiritual life. The Lord says that one must worship the acarya, who is the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (acaryam mam vijaniyat). One should definitely understand this. In Caitanya-caritamrta it is said that the guru is the manifestation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, according to all the evidence given by the sastra and by the practical behavior of devotees, one must accept a guru. Aditi accepted her husband as her guru, so that he would direct her how to advance in spiritual consciousness, devotional service, by worshiping the Supreme Lord.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 8.16.23, purport

The Lord reveals His identity gradually to one who has unflinching faith, both in the spiritual master and in the Lord. After this, the devotee is endowed with mystic opulences, which are eight in number. And above all, the devotee is accepted in the confidential entourage of the Lord and is entrusted with specific service of the Lord through the agency of the spiritual master.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.39, purport

We can speculate for many births, for many years, and yet not be able to understand the ultimate goal of life. Therefore the sastras all advise that we search out a guru. The word guru means "heavy" or "weighty." One who has much knowledge is heavy with knowledge. One should consider the bona fide guru in this way, and one should not think, "I know everything. Who can teach me?" No one can say such a thing, for everyone needs instruction.

Teachings of Lord Kapila, the Son of Devahuti

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.10) further quotes:

ato gurum pranamyaivam sarva-svam vinivedya ca

grhniyad vaisnavam mantram diksa-purvam vidhanatah

"'It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything--body, mind and intelligence--one must take Vaisnava initiation from him.'"

Madhya 15.108, purport

Mr. O'Grady: Is it possible to arrive at this understanding of God alone?

Srila Prabhupada: No. Therefore we have cited this verse: tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. The word abhigacchet means "must." It is not possible alone. In Sanskrit grammar this is called the vidhi-lin form of a verb, and this form is used when there is no choice. The word abhigacchet means that one must approach a guru. That is the Vedic version. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita you will find that Arjuna was talking to Krsna, but when he saw that things were not being resolved, he surrendered himself to Krsna and accepted Him as his guru.

The Science of Self-Realization

"One should taste the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam in the association of pure devotees."

PURPORT: The Srimad-Bhagavatam can only be recited by one who has unflinching faith in the lotus feet of Krsna and His devotee, the spiritual master. One should try to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam from the spiritual master. The Vedic injunction states: bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam na buddhya na ca tikaya. One has to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam through the process of devotional service and by hearing the recitation of a pure devotee. These are the injunctions of Vedic literature--sruti and smrti. Those who are not in the disciplic succession and who are not pure devotees cannot understand the real mysterious objective of Srimad-Bhagavatam and Srimad Bhagavad-gita.

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 22.131, purport

"How could one have knowledge of devotional service and detachment without the help of such [spotless] devotees"

PURPORT: There are many inexperienced persons who advocate self-realization without the help of a spiritual master. They decry the necessity of the spiritual master and try themselves to take his place by propagating the theory that a spiritual master is not necessary. Srimad-Bhagavatam, however, does not approve this viewpoint. Even the great transcendental scholar Vyasadeva had need of a spiritual master, and under the instruction of his spiritual master, Narada, he prepared this sublime literature, Srimad-Bhagavatam. Even Lord Caitanya, although He is Krsna Himself, accepted a spiritual master; even Lord Krsna accepted a spiritual master, Sandipani Muni, in order to be enlightened; and all the acaryas and saints of the world had spiritual masters. In Bhagavad-gita Arjuna accepted Krsna as his spiritual master, although there was no question about the necessity of accepting a spiritual master. The only stipulation is that the spiritual master should be bona fide; i.e., the spiritual master must be in the proper chain of disciplic succession, called the parampara system.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.7.39, purport

In the Adi-lila Purana there is the following statement by Lord Krsna Himself, addressed to Arjuna: "My dear Partha, one who claims to be My devotee is not so. Only a person who claims to be the devotee of My devotee is actually My devotee." No one can approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead directly. One must approach Him through His pure devotees. Therefore, in the system of Vaisnava activities, the first duty is to accept a devotee as spiritual master and then to render service unto him.

The Nectar of Devotion

The best way to establish our relation in transcendental sweetness is to approach [Lord Krsna] through His recognized devotees. One should not try to establish the relation directly; there must be a via medium which is transparent and competent to lead us to the right path.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.9.22, purport

[For devotional life] one must first become a servant of the servant of the servant of the Lord (dasanudasa). Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu advised, and He also showed by His own example, that a living entity should always desire to be a servant of the servant of the servant of Krsna, the maintainer of the gopis (gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasadasanudasah). This means that one must accept a spiritual master who comes in the disciplic succession and is a servant of the servant of the Lord.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.11.24, purport

In the spiritual world there are five kinds of relationships with the Supreme Lord--santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. ... These five relationships in the material world are distorted reflections of the original pure sentiments, which should be understood and perfected in relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master ... a conditioned soul must ultimately approach a bona fide spiritual master and try to understand perfectly the material and spiritual worlds and his own existential position.

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi. 1.56, purport

The human form of body is actually meant for jivasya tattva jijnasa, enlightenment in knowledge of spiritual values. Therefore, one must seek shelter of a bona fide spiritual master. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta: [sB 11.3.21] one must approach a guru. Who is a guru? Sabde pare ca nisnatam (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.3.27): a guru is one who has full transcendental knowledge. Unless one approaches a spiritual master, one remains in ignorance.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.10.10, purport

The serious candidate must accept a bona fide spiritual master in order to be trained scientifically. Because the senses are material, it is not at all possible to realize the Transcendence by them. Therefore the senses have to be spiritualized by the prescribed method under the direction of the spiritual master.

Easy Journey to Other Planets

The stage of pure devotion is attained by sincerely serving a pure devotee of the Lord. The first condition of devotional service to the Lord is therefore to be a servant of a pure devotee, and this condition is fulfilled by the statement "reception of the dust of the lotus feet of a pure devotee who has also served another pure devotee." That is the way of pure disciplic succession, or devotional parampara. ... Lord Sri Krsna is the property of His pure unconditional devotees, and as such only the devotees can deliver Krsna to another devotee; Krsna is never obtainable directly. ... The conclusion is, therefore, that one should be more serious about seeking the mercy of the devotee than that of the Lord directly, and by one's doing so (by the good will of the devotee) the natural attraction for the service of the Lord will be revived.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.3.23, purport

</blockquote>

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-07-2002).]

raga · May 7, 2002

Jagat, can you send me the whole article by email? If you have other articles as well, send them in please. I find it tedious to surf around and copy and paste them from here and there into my archives. Thanks!

raga · May 7, 2002

Originally posted by theist:

Why not just deal with what he says in terms of siddhanta.If he is right then the Lord must be giving it to him.

Theist, this is exactly the point. At times the siddhanta he presents is outrageous in the light of scriptures.

At any rate, the Lord must be giving it to him, as He gives to everyone -- since everyone wanders His path in all respects. But siddhanta is another thing.

theist · May 7, 2002

Originally posted by Jagat:

The whole idea of being born again is significant in nearly all religions. Religious experience is about rebirth.

Hare Krishna Jagat,

You make so many points in your post but I will focus on just a couple.

Here is a record of Christ explaining rebirth to Nicodemus, who was a Pharisee, a Jewish religious teacher and scholar.

Jesus chides him a bit at being a teacher of the Jews and not understanding the spiritual rebirth.Although as a Pharisee surely he was conversant with all the religious formalities.

I love vs. 8.It shows that the experience of rebirth is a transcendental experience beyond our understanding or ability to explain it.I know many have been water baptised but without the inner cleansing of the Spirit.I wonder if the same can happen at a vaisnava initiation rite?

On the other hand, Vaishnavas often have a distant relation with a guru who is a perfect transcendental being in their minds more than in reality.

Christian Vaisnavas have a so-called distant relationship with Jesus Christ and the Supreme Lord in His name.Sometimes in fantasy and sometimes in reality.

For a Vaishnava, being initiated is proof of seriousness and commitment.

I would say seriousness and commitment is the proof of initiation.

Haribol

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-07-2002).]

theist · May 7, 2002

Oct. 9 1969 letter

My Dear Dinesh,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated October 21, 1969 along with a contribution of $25. I have already acknowledged receipt of your new record. Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion. Arjuna was a disciple of Krishna and Brahma was also a disciple of Krishna. Thus there is no disagreement between the conclusions of Brahma and Arjuna. Vyasadeva is in the disciplic succession of Brahma. The teachings to Arjuna was recorded by Vyasadeva verbatim. So according to the axiomatic truth, things equal to one another are equal to each other. We are not exactly directly from Vyasadeva, but our Gurudeva is a representative of Vyasadeva. Because Vyasadeva and Arjuna are of equal status, being students of Krishna, therefore we are in the disciplic succession of Arjuna. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another.....

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

paul108 · May 7, 2002

This is a pretty heavy topic. Posted Image Maybe someone can give me a little advice (go easy on me -- I'm bewildered by maha-maya) or at least something to think about. Obviously I'm not initiated. I seem to have a rather unusual history in Krishna consciousness. Since anyone who's reading down this far can't possibly be afraid of long posts, I'll start a ways back.

I remember being 8 years old, after church thinking, "I don't really know if there's a God. It doesn't really seem like people at church know for sure either. One thing makes sense, though, if some day I happen to find out that there actually is a God, that would be the most important thing to know."

Jump ahead to college. During my first two years of college I majored in intoxication. The first year was study (really), when I read _The Journal of Psychoactive Drugs_, almost every article from around 1967 to 1990. Second year I was stoned beginning to end with hardly a break at all. I spent most of my time alone in the woods at the edge of campus. Eventually I got lonely, experimented with magic, and got pretty far out. The magic worked, and got me a hot girlfriend. About 1.5 years into that relationship I started reading about yoga, since I was taking a yoga gym class. I got a little purified and the magic began to wear off. (I later learned that the magic bound me not her.) She dumped me.

Depression hit bigtime. Somehow I got some mescaline, took it, and was given a lesson about karma and its results. I never could understand that before. I went to the library, and started studying the yoga books. There were several hundred, maybe a couple thousand books on yoga in the university library. I read over a hundred of the ones that seemed the most authentic (usually the older ones). I put it to practice. I started with hatha (like in gym class), then studied karma, raja, jnana, and eventually met a kundalini yoga teacher who also trained me to teach (and I did teach for about a year). By this time I thought I knew yoga pretty well for a Westerner. In all the books I think I read something about Krishna not more than five times, but I didn't know that was important then.

Finally I graduated. Although my official major was Environmental Studies, I spent more time and was more interested in yoga than that or anything else. I decided that I couldn't progress much more as long as I maintained a social life. So I moved from New York to Washington state.

When I got there, the first day I went to Olympia to see what the place was like. I did three notable things that day: 1) I bought a used Bhagavad-gita As It Is. (I'd read three other translations and didn't think it was a very impressive book, but I wanted to learn Sanskrit, and I was very impressed with the scholarly presentation Srila Prabhupada made. 2) Across the street was an imports store, where I bought a painting of Krishna. 3) Around the corner was a metaphysical book store, where I learned of a upcoming healers' gathering two days away.

I went home and started reading Bhagavad-gita, but found it very difficult. I had been studying _Vasistha's Yoga_ for two years, and I couldn't get these to both fit in my understanding. Sunday came and I went to this healers' gathering called "Energy Circle." One thing I was told was that there was a concensus among many psychics that there was going to be a big earthquake soon and we were going under the ocean. Talk about heavy.

So the week went on, and I was getting a bad headache trying to understand Vasistha's Yoga and Bhagavad-gita together. On Wednesday night I wrote in my journal that "If Krishna is a real person, and is who Srila Prabhupada says He is, then I need to see Him." I didn't think this would be any trouble for God, and I was thinking I might die very soon anyway. By Friday I felt I was getting nowhere, so I went out to Olympia, where there was a film festival taking place. The movie playing at 9:00 was "Kids." I didn't know about it, and since most people don't know about it, I'll just inform that it's written by kids about kids, and the theme is hardcore drugs, sex, and violence. Very kali-yuga. Someone in the line for the movie gave me two hits of acid. Halfway through the movie, I took them.

I got home at 11:00, went to my room, and opened up Bhagavad-gita. I read with rapt attention until around 4:00, when I noticed the acid was wearing off. The next thing I noticed was that the book was acting strange. It was quite normal until then, but somehow, just when I should've been calling it a night, I turned another page, and my eyes fell on "Krsna." Again, again, again. Then I kept seeing "Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare" no matter which page I turned to. Next (sequence begins to get a little fuzzy soon) I became mystified looking at "Krsna," particularly the three dots below the "rsn." I remember wondering how oneness could be the absolute truth when I'm seeing these three dots here. Suddenly my perception began to spiral into the center dot, and in a flash I was back. In a flash I was back; I looked to my right, and saw Krishna. He didn't look like a painting anymore, but was fully animate and very real.

[since it's now past my bedtime, I'll copy/paste something I wrote a few years ago about this.]

I looked at Krishna, my heart stopped, and I remember

Him laughing, "You think you're a yogi?" I was plunged

in an ocean of ecstasy. Nothing was there, but nothing was missing either, except "where is Krishna, I can't find Him. I just saw Him. Where is He?" Immediately I was back with Him in my bedroom. I can hardly remember much more

about what He did. I remember passing through dreaming

and deap sleep while fully conscious and awake.

I remember time moving backwards, foreward, backward,

repeatedly. I remember seeing Vedic mantras emmenating

from His face in the shape of a lotus. I remember seeing

His face take the shape of many loved ones.

He also showed me how I had passed through what seemed like

high millions to billions of lifetimes, forgetful of Him,

and that in some of them I did some service to Him.

I remember asking Him why he was showing this to me, and

then looking down to see the word "mercy" written.

I remember turning a the page and finding a large "108"

printed on the paper, looking up and seeing a "door"

about the same size as the painting, also with "108"

glowing in front of it. As I continued chanting "Hare

Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama

Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare," I felt myself being drawn

to the door. I realized suddenly that going through

that door would change everything, and I was not prepared.

Still I could not bear to leave Krishna. As I kept chanting

I saw that the painting of Krishna caught on fire,

beginning with the top corner. I remembered how yogis

catch fire from tapas as their soul leaves out the top of

their heads, and I felt afraid of leaving. I remembered

my family, and Krishna assured me that if I go with Him

now, that I would never have been born. He could do that.

While I was deliberating for a moment, the flames subsided

and the painting was restored. As my mind went to Krishna

again, the painting started burning again. After this repeated

a few times, I got totally freaked out. I tore the painting

in a frenzy of terror, pulled my Buddha tapestry off the wall,

and hid in my bed until I fell asleep. The last thing He

said to me was, "Always chant My names. Get some association

of My devotees. At the end of this life you will see Me

again, and you will come with Me... And this painting

will be in one piece." Today the painting is matted and

hanging on my wall in 8 pieces. One piece, the cow's nose

is missing.

[End of copy/paste.]

Srila Prabhupada brought Krishna to me, and because of this I knew I could not fathom his greatness. This was a person who I could accept as a guru, not anyone else. Then I learned he'd passed from this world when I was just 5 years old. I did not think there could be anyone else who could compare with Srila Prabhupada, and he was the only person whom I considered a bona fide guru. I was stumped, except I remembered Krishna's parting words. He did not tell me to find a guru and get initiated. He said "always chant My names and get some association of My devotees."

Over the years I've been sometimes very gung-ho about practicing devotional service, and at other times not. I've had several dreams about Srila Prabhupada, and in my most memorable one, I discussed my predicament concerning diksa with him. He said, "I will take care of you," and then I woke up.

So any comments or advice? There's some more relevant info I'd like to add, but that's the gist and I've got to go to bed.

I've since found one person who's inspired me enough to discuss initiation with. He's a GBC (although wasn't at that time), and a guru of a relatively small number of disciples. I expressed my concern that as much as I may try, unless I am liberated (which obviously I am not) I do not know how I could take the vows of initiation. I simply cannot predice if I would fall down. At that time I was chanting 16 rounds and following the 4 regs. He told me to wait until I am near retirement or retired before seeking a guru. I thought that was a good answer, although it has also given me a lot of worry, like "what if I am killed before then, what will become of me? Will I miss my golden opportunity?

Ok, again, any comments or advice? I don't usually share this with anyone, but since I didn't get flamed for talking about _S. divinorum_ on the current events board, I'm feeling a little brave, or is it foolish? It seems that the gist of my post is that I don't know how I can find anyone who can earn my respect as a spiritual teacher to the extent that Srila Prabhupada has. Leaving my own unworthiness aside for a moment, how can I accept a guru while thinking he is inferior to Srila Prabhupada?

Rati · May 8, 2002

paul108: If you seriously seek out a senior Vaishnava that might be a suitable initiation (diksa) guru, you could very well be pleasantly surprised as far as their measuring up to your expectations. Then again, even if they do not seem to be as mighty as you expect, as long as they are not ill-behaved and come in an established lineage, they have the qualifications necessary to initiate you. Sometimes we simply have to be realistic. We can wish for Narada Muni to fly down from heaven and give us mantras, but that does not mean it is likely to happen. Getting accepted to Harvard or Oxford is certainly the best, but if we are unable to get into those institutions and yet are accepted to UCLA or even the local community college, that does not mean we will not get a valuable education.

Hope this helps.

theist · May 8, 2002

paul108,

I'm not fit to advise anyone but I found this interesting.

letter excerpt Aug. 19,1968 to Tamala

The chanting Hare Krishna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there. Now the next initiation will be performed as a ceremony officially, of course that ceremony has value because the name, Holy Name, will be delivered to the student from the disciplic succession, it has got value, but in spite of that, as you are going on chanting, please go on with this business sincerely and Krishna willing, I may be coming to you very soon. I have already written to Jayananda about this, so don't be impatient.

raga · May 8, 2002

If you really want to know what is the meaning of diksa, I suggest going to the Gosvami Granthas instead of plucking out references from the letters of a recent teacher, with all due respect, since it may not even represent the view of the person whom you quote. The meaning of diksa has to be learned through an authorized disciplic succession to have a proper understanding.

Jagat · May 8, 2002

I agree with Raga. Prabhupad was probably writing to encourage someone.

Theistji, there are several levels of Vaishnava. The first chants the Holy Name. The second is initiated. The third sees Krishna everywhere.

Jahnava Nitai Das · May 8, 2002

The meaning of diksa has to be learned through an authorized disciplic succession to have a proper understanding.

I assume you actually mean through your authorized disciplic succession, as there are countless successions which will have varying definitions. And of course one such authorized disciplic succession which was quoted was the one of Srila Prabhupada's, but that didn't seem to satisfy you. Thus it seems to reaffirm my conclusion above (i.e. your authorized disciplic succession...).

gimmegames · May 8, 2002

Originally posted by theist:

I would say seriousness and commitment is the proof of initiation.

Haribol

That sums it up right there.

Without seriousness and commitment it is just a ritual

syam

[This message has been edited by gimmegames (edited 05-08-2002).]

raga · May 8, 2002

Originally posted by jndas:

I assume you actually mean through your authorized disciplic succession, as there are countless successions which will have varying definitions. And of course one such authorized disciplic succession which was quoted was the one of Srila Prabhupada's, but that didn't seem to satisfy you. Thus it seems to reaffirm my conclusion above (i.e. your authorized disciplic succession...).

No, I would not say my disciplic succession. I do not say my guru is the only way. My, it would be foolish to say so.

Within the realm of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, the six Gosvamis are held to be the highest authority. Anyone who claims to be Gaudiya is bound to follow their precepts. Thus we have a common ground of authority, inasmuch as the question is within the framework of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Is it?

If you read the entire thread, you'll see my lengthy posting with numerous quotes from the writings of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Should we take it that these writings echo his actual stand on the matter, or instead something picked out of a letter from 1968 to someone who was in a particular situation?

Moreover, we may observe how the tradition of establishing disciplic succession is carried on among the majority of his direct followers. It is carried out by the means of diksa-initiation. The need of diksa-initiation is evident to be recognized within a particular lineage of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-08-2002).]

theist · May 8, 2002

Jagat prabhu,

I meant to ask you this earlier but the discussion went too fast for me.

Would you explain this statement further as I am having trouble understanding what you mean.

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, who invented the bhagavati diksha, did so as a rationalization of the initiation process. He ridiculed both the charisma (genuine spiritual realization) and therefore the legitimacy of the existing Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradayas. For him, charisma was the only legitimacy.

I know that Bhaktisiddhanta was the guru of Srila A.C. Prabhupada.

thanks

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-08-2002).]

sha · May 8, 2002

quote by shiva:

--

<big>

I was asked who my guru is and I refused. Why? Because I am qualified to speak on Gaudiya Vaishnavism without undergoing any formal ritual, which is external. The true initiation is accepting the teachings of the Parampara. </big>

--

Posted Image I was asked who my guru is and I refused. Why? Because I am qualified to speak on Gaudiya Vaishnavism without undergoing any formal ritual, which is external.

The true initiation is accepting the teachings of the Parampara. Posted Image

Jagat · May 8, 2002

Of course, any statement should be accepted on its own merits. I personally could not give a hoot about who Shiva's guru is. I did not bring the question up, but since it came up and Shiva answered in what I think is a manner that goes against siddhanta, I responded.

My objection is to the principle in question. I am afraid that I stand by my argument which I have outlined above, but no one seems to want to address. So please read my first post carefully along with the links.

As far as questions about the history of the parampara, Theist, you can see the link I gave above, which talks about these things in a historical fashion.

As far as Ed Dimock is concerned, he is a scholar whom I personally never met. I have read his books and he did a good job of introducing certain aspects of Gaudiya Vaishnavism to western scholarship before Iskcon was created. Quite a few other modern scholars of Gaudiya Vaishnavism--Tony Stewart, David Haberman, June McDaniel, as well as Nitai (Neal), and Garuda all studied with Dimock, so he has made a great contribution, but he is a scholar, not a devotee.

I personally value the academic study of religion. I think it helps one get a perspective on the essentials of even his own religious faith. The scholar without faith (or with a different faith) will come to quite different conclusions from the faithful person. Nevertheless, the scrutiny of the scholar can render service to the life of faith. The atheistic scholar thus often serves the faithful person, both directly and indirectly.

Scholars can often look at facts objectively and come up with quite different conclusions about what they mean, compared to a devotee who often accepts things on face value. The same fact may be a source of inspiration to the devotee, but a proof of the futility of religion to the atheist. On the other hand, scholars who expose the futility of many shallow beliefs do a service to the devotee by forcing him to deepen his understanding of his own faith.

Final comment: "The true initiation is accepting the teachings of the Parampara."

Bhakti is open to everyone--nRmAtrasyAtrAdhikAritA. The Holy Name is open to everyone. Nevertheless, if you accept the "the teachings of the Parampara," i.e., the siddhanta of the Six Goswamis, then you should seek initiation. It is not "optional."

Of the 64 angas of devotional service it is number #2. guru-padAzrayas tasmAd kRSNa-dIkSAdi-zikSaNam. To minimize this instruction is to go against the teaching of Rupa Goswami.

Of course, everyone is entitled to say anything they like; they may be right or wrong. We will naturally accept what they say on its own merit. I bow down to everyone, but I shall personally continue to make a distinction between initiated devotees and those who are not initiated.

Ys, Jagat

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 05-08-2002).]

Jagat · May 8, 2002

One who is initiated is connected. Fortunate is the disciple whose guru's mercy follows him wherever he goes, even if he forgets his guru.

May 8, 2002

Quoting Raga's verse from Sril Prabhupada-

"...the connection with the spiritual master is called initiation..."

This is the real initiation,if you undergo the Diksa ceremony,but disregared the connection,or service,of the Guru's message,then your diksa is just an external ritual,of little value.

The real connection is serving the Guru,that is real initiation.

What does initiation mean?

It means to initiate,or begin.

When you begin or initiate the acceptance of the instructions of the Guru,then you are initiated.

I noticed no one commented on the social- fraternal aspect of the Diksa ceremony.

The ceremony itself gives the initiate a social bond,a place in a fraternal order,and it helps him/her feel part of something important and special.This is the main reason for the diksa ceremony.

As far as who is credible, being dependent

on the ceremony,I think that is irrelevant.

Credibility is based on the criterion of the listener,not the speaker.The speaker always thinks he is credible,the listener actually decides if the message is acceptable to him/herself.

As for why I will not say who,or if I was given Diksa from,It is to make the point that it does not matter.

Mahaprabhu himself took initiation from a non Gaudiya Vaisnava,do you think he was trying to make a point?

Jahnava Nitai Das · May 8, 2002

guru-padAzrayas tasmAd kRSNa-dIkSAdi-zikSaNam.

I think the only disagreement that could exist is what constitutes surrender to the spiritual master and "initiation". Is it a mere ritual, or is it the implanting of divya-jnanam in the heart of the shishya? Arjuna is a disciple of Lord Krishna because he surrendered to the Lord and he received divya-jnanam. It was not a ritual. The same was the case with Ramanuja.

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-08-2002).]

paul108 · May 8, 2002

an excerpt... Originally posted by Jagat:

Of course, everyone is entitled to say anything they like; they may be right or wrong. We will naturally accept what they say on its own merit. I bow down to everyone, but I shall personally continue to make a distinction between initiated devotees and those who are not initiated.

Ys, Jagat

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 05-08-2002).]

In general I would agree, and I like the rest of your post(s). However, what about initiated devotees who have broken their vows, or who no longer even attempt to keep their vows? I know of many initiated devotees who probably haven't chanted Hare Krishna in a long time. Are they to be considered to have a higher realization, to be more advanced, than a person who is waiting for initiation until they know they can keep their vows?

The only vows I've taken so far are marriage vows (7/20/96 Toronto Rathayatra, by the way). I would not have taken them unless I knew I could keep them 100%. If not I would not have gotten married. A few years back, when I was living at New Vrindavana, and my wife was becoming dissatisfied with some things there, more than a few devotees recommended that I abandon my wife and join the bhakta program. I was pleased when most of them apoligised for their suggestion, because I had lost a lot of respect for these people who thought I could advance my spiritual life by breaking my only vow.

I'd like to know how many initiated disciples have failed to chant 16 rounds in a day, or have in any way broken the regulative principles. Isn't that lying to their spiritual master? Actually I think it's worse.

Recently I watched a video of Srila Prabhupada saying that a person who falsely presents himself as an authority in a subject is a cheater. In order to take initiation vows, I would have to know for certain that I am liberated. Otherwise, how could I make such strong promises.

I've understood that the vow against meat-eating includes fasting on scheduled days and several other dietary restrictions. Intoxication is very vague (like could I take valerian root, catnip, or lemon balm if I'm having trouble sleeping?). does illicit sex include mental sex? It would not be far-fetched to say that sex is at least 90% mental. What 18 year old boy can say for certain he'll never think about sex again? Gambling seems like an easy one, but I've heard it includes wasting time. Good luck keeping that vow forever.

Anyway, my time's up. Gotta go...

Hare Krishna

Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

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