Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

[Jagat]

The original point of departure for this discussion was, to paraphrase:

I was asked who my guru is and I refused. Why? Because I am qualified to speak on Gaudiya Vaishnavism without undergoing any formal ritual, which is external. The true initiation is accepting the teachings of the Parampara.

I believe that accurately represents Shiva's argument. JNDas, are you approving this position?

 

Different sampradayas certainly have differing definitions, but they nearly all follow the system of initiating disciples, who are then considered legitimate "heirs" so to speak. One of the arguments against Narayan Maharaj's leadership role among disciples of Srila Prabhupad is that he is not an initiated disciple. He claims to be a siksha disciple, but that claim is treated with some scorn by friends like Bhakta George. So diksha is definitely a public marker of legitimacy.

 

As far as transmission of charisma is concerned, in Gaudiya Vaishnavism magic transmission of spiritual power is considered secondary, as it is felt that Harinam is sufficient totthat purpose. Nevertheless, I have shown above how this "shakti sanchar" is indeed a part of even the Gaudiya Math tradition. Indeed, if this did NOT play a role, the whole legitimacy aspect of initiation would be meaningless.

 

So, to return to shastra:

 

<center>kRSNeti yasya giri taM manasAdriyeta

dIkSAsti cet praNatibhis taM bhajantam Izam

zuzrUSayA bhajana-vijJam ananyam anya-

nindAdi-zUnya-hRdam Ipsita-saGga-labdhyA </center>

 

<blockquote>Give respect in your mind to anyone who chants Hare Krishna.

 

If a person is initiated and engaged in bhajan (i.e., kirtan, archan and smaran), then give respect by bowing down to him or her.

 

And if you get the most desirable association of an exclusive devotee of the Divine Couple who is expert in bhajan, and whose heart is absolutely void of any tendency to criticize others, then show respect by serving him or her in body, mind and soul. (Upadeshamrita 5)</blockquote>

My God is this a lovely verse, people!! Memorize it!! Wear it around your neck! Repeat it again and again! This is Rupa Goswamipada!

 

Since bhajan is connected in the second line to diksha, it would be foolish to assume that the Mahatma who is bhajana-vijJa would be uninitiated.<font color=#f7f7f7><small>

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 05-08-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Everyone is free to have their own opinion. I may not agree with it, but that's not so relevant.

 

What I found amusing was the statement about learning from the "authorized disciplic succession". Except of course if it is a direct statement from Srila Prabhupada, who is just a recent teacher (refer "instead of plucking out references from the letters of a recent teacher...")

 

I agree with Raga. Prabhupad was probably writing to encourage someone.

I would disagree. Especially when seen in connection with this statement:

 

Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion.

As far as Raga's multitude of quotes from Srila Prabhupada, yes, they tell us to approach a spiritual master, but do not say anything about undergoing an external ritual. Initiation is much more than the ritual.

 

I have nothing against rituals and initiations, but just for discussion I am making these points.

 

Now whether Mr. XYZ is "initiated" or not, and whether he was initiated in 1976 or 1975 really is meaningless. We should be able to address his statements directly and, if he is completely crazy, show the fallacies of his statements. The, "who is your guru" argument is really a childish answer, one that certainly won't carry any value outside of ritualist circles.

 

What is an initiation ritual and what is its weight? Just by having been initiated ritually, does that make us disciples of Swami ABC? Hypothetically, what if we change our minds later? Does the ritual override our state of mind? Or is it our conscious surrender to the guru that makes us disciples?

 

[theist]

Jagat prabhu,

 

I am curious as to your position on Edward Dimock who you and others have dedicated a web site to.

 

He is a scholar who wrote books on Gaudiya Vaisnavism and even translated Caitanya Chartamrta before his passing.

 

Was he formally initiated?If not do you still read his works and/or others in a similar position?

 

If so,why?

[Audarya lila]

Dear Paul,

 

It is incorrect to think that one must be in the liberated state to take initiation. That line of thinking is similar to one who feels that someone must be healthy to visit a doctor. The strength to follow the regimine given by the Guru comes from Guru. You are certainly right to think that you must be qualified yourself, but you are incorrect to think that you can achieve liberation without taking shelter of Sri Guru.

 

My nephew once told me that he feels disdain for so many Christians because they are hypocrits. I asked him why he felt that way. He said that they are speaking about surrender and perfection and the ideal life but their lives are not a perfect model of such a life. I told him that while I agree to a certain extent that he would be hard pressed to find a serious and sincere Christian who felt he/she was perfect and sinless. They acknowledge their sinfulness and their need for divine mercy and therefore they go to church and strive for a divine life. They aknowledge their need and they are trying to do something about it by their adherence and sumission - full of faults though it may be. In that sense they are much better than the idle fault finder.

 

Sridhara Maharaja has said, following the lead of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, that a person should be judged not on the basis of who they are at present, but rather on the basis of their ideal - for it is that which they will eventually become. (Oh supreme comma Guru - please forgive my offenses to your sage advice in this paragraph)

 

The four regulative principles that Srila Prabhupada asked his disciples to adhere to are the basis of basic human life. He recognized that he was accepting disciples that were accustomed to living very sinful lives on the level of polished animals.

 

If you can find a sadhu that inspires you and that can help you then you may begin to think about how you can serve him/her and you will naturally inquire about all the intricacies of spiritual life. The natural progression is that the Guru captures the disciples heart with siksha and then the disciple submits and asks for diksha. Until you find someone who you feel this way about you should simply chant and pray to Krsna that someday he will be present before you in the form of Sri Guru.

 

Regarding Jagat's comment - I think you can understand that you will naturally disappoint those you love from time to time. Take your wife for instance. I would guess that she, at times, has been less than pleased with you. Does that make you an unworthy husband? I think not. It means that you are fualty and imperfect like most people and that you have to keep trying and hoping against all hope that you will be able some day to live up the standards that you perceive to be ideal. I am sure that if you tallied up all the qualities that would make for the ideal husband you would find yourself lacking in many areas - I know I do. Still by force of your love you are married. When a sadhu captures your heart you will want to be connected to him/her in a substantial and formal way. That connection does not mean you will not stumble or fall along the way, but your genuine love will keep you going and his/her mercy will elevate you in time.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Sri Chaitanya, whom most of us claim to follow, Himself did not give mantra diksha to any disciples. Yet He did have disciples. But most here will probably prefer to ignore this point as it strengthens the concept of a siksha parampara as opposed to a ritual parampara. As to whether divya-jnanam (transcendental knoweldge) actually means a ritual initiation with a mantra, thats left for people with common sense to decide. From the practical history, we see Arjuna did not receive a ritual mantra initiation, yet he became the shishya of Krishna simply by complete surrender (shishyas te 'ham shadhi mama tvam prapannam.

 

If we do prapatti to the guru, we become his disciple, it is that simple. When the guru accepts our surrender that is initiation, and his mere blessings plant the seed of transcendental knowledge (divya jnanam) in our heart.

 

Others may give more value to the metric distance between the guru and the disciple when he whispers in the ear of the shishya, but it is not the case in the scriptures or traditions.

 

Ramanuja received spontaneous initiation from Yamunacharya without having even spoken to him, after his guru had left his body. There was no chance for an external ritual, nor was there any need. Mantra diksha is distinct from this, as Ramanuja later received mantra diksha from Periya Nambi. Divya-jnanam is absolutely distinct from mantra diksha, though the mantra is sometimes given to the shishya to awaken the covered divya-jnanam (through sadhana).

 

The histories are full of stories of disciples who simply received the karuna of the guru, with out any formal mantra diksha.

 

Personalities such as Parikshit received divya-jnanam simply by hearing Srimad Bhagavatam. there was no need for an external ritual or for mantra diksha.

 

One may argue that in Chaitanya's line, Chaitanya has given stress to the ritual, but it is not true, for He Himself never gave mantra diksha.

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Initiation day for me was like being 'officially' married in my soul to Krishna. My diksha guru was the one who joined us together for better or worse never do we part. Of course common law marriages are considered just as valid these days.

[Shashi]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

Initiation day for me was like being 'officially' married in my soul to Krishna. My diksha guru was the one who joined us together for better or worse never do we part. Of course common law marriages are considered just as valid these days.

There are being many deep meanings therewith.

BhaktavasyaJi you are banging the nail rite on the head.

 

 

[Shashi]

Originally posted by jndas:

Sri Chaitanya, whom most of us claim to follow, Himself did not give mantra diksha to any disciples. Yet He did have disciples. But most here will probably prefer to ignore this point as it strengthens the concept of a siksha parampara as opposed to a ritual parampara. As to whether divya-jnanam (transcendental knoweldge) actually means a ritual initiation with a mantra, thats left for people with common sense to decide. From the practical history, we see Arjuna did not receive a ritual mantra initiation, yet he became the shishya of Krishna simply by complete surrender (shishyas te 'ham shadhi mama tvam prapannam.

 

If we do prapatti to the guru, we become his disciple, it is that simple. When the guru accepts our surrender that is initiation, and his mere blessings plant the seed of transcendental knowledge (divya jnanam) in our heart.

 

Others may give more value to the metric distance between the guru and the disciple when he whispers in the ear of the shishya, but it is not the case in the scriptures or traditions.

 

Ramanuja received spontaneous initiation from Yamunacharya without having even spoken to him, after his guru had left his body. There was no chance for an external ritual, nor was there any need. Mantra diksha is distinct from this, as Ramanuja later received mantra diksha from Periya Nambi. Divya-jnanam is absolutely distinct from mantra diksha, though the mantra is sometimes given to the shishya to awaken the covered divya-jnanam (through sadhana).

 

The histories are full of stories of disciples who simply received the karuna of the guru, with out any formal mantra diksha.

 

Personalities such as Parikshit received divya-jnanam simply by hearing Srimad Bhagavatam. there was no need for an external ritual or for mantra diksha.

 

One may argue that in Chaitanya's line, Chaitanya has given stress to the ritual, but it is not true, for He Himself never gave mantra diksha.

My panditJi who is being helping me to be finetuning my sayings for this forums as per translatery of philosophical meanings but not for day to day chatters is saying I may be expressing my reply to J N DasJi as such:-

 

<u>FAULTLESS ELUCIDATION !</U>

 

 

[Jagat]

How terribly modern of everyone.

 

All those who are not initiated who don't think initiation is important, raise your hands!

 

All those who think that if they defend formal initiation they will be opening the back door to those nasty diksha-sampradaya wallahs, raise your hand!

 

Chaitanya did not give initiation, that has been mentioned by Sanatan Goswami as a special case. It is not a statement about the necessity of initiation. Rather, Mahaprabhu took formal initiation from Ishwar Puri. That is a better example to follow.

 

Chaitanya's sannyas is easily misunderstood. There was a rather large group of Vaishnava sannyasis in the Shankara sampradaya based at Govardhan Math in Puri. This included the Puris (Madhavendra, Ishwar, Paramananda, etc.) and Bharatis (Keshava, Brahmananda, etc.). What could be more natural for Mahaprabhu than to join this group. However, what happened before and what happened after are two different things. We belong, I may remind you, to the "after" group.

 

Similarly, Ramanuja is a sampradaya founder. There are often anomalies in the diksha of sampradaya founders, like Siddhanta Saraswati. Those who profess to follow them, however, generally follow the formalities. If you have an earth-shattering realization that transforms the very nature of the teachings you have received, you are welcome to repudiate or trivialize your diksha relationships and establish your own parampara, otherwise not!

 

The example of Arjuna is also not applicable in this case. Krishna was his siksha guru. Where is the sampradaya coming from Arjuna? The siksha sampradaya wallahs confuse siksha with diksha whenever it suits their convenience. But really what you're doing is "opening the back door" to the Ritvik wallahs.

 

Audarya Lila uses the marriage example, which is a very good one. Of course, like Bhaktivasya says, common law marriage is "recognized" nowadays. The arguments traditionally for common-law marriage resemble those given here for so-called "real" initiation. Love is more important than recognition in the eyes of the law or society. And there's divorce, too. There are so many reasons that formal marriage is irrelevant and unimportant. Yeah, well.

 

Chant Hare Krishna. Accept the teachings of the sampradaya. Associate with devotees. It's all better than nothing, but if you mean it, then put your money where your mouth is. Commit.

 

Anyway, I think I've said just about everything I want to say here. Jai Radhe!

 

Your servant,

 

Jagat

 

P.S. If I were Rebecca, Peter, Gary, George or Don, I would put aside my false ego and all my excuses and take shelter of Bhakti Marg Swami, Tripurari Maharaj, Narayan Maharaj, Ananta Das Pandit, or some other real person, rather than remaining on the mental plane, beating round the bush, or playing the field. Pick a path and follow it. All roads may lead to Rome, but you've got to take one. Otherwise, you end up walking in circles. Commit.<small><font color=#f7f7f7>

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 05-09-2002).]

[sha]

Originally posted by jndas:

Sri Chaitanya, whom most of us claim to follow, Himself did not give mantra diksha to any disciples. Yet He did have disciples. But most here will probably prefer to ignore this point as it strengthens the concept of a siksha parampara as opposed to a ritual parampara. As to whether divya-jnanam (transcendental knoweldge) actually means a ritual initiation with a mantra, thats left for people with common sense to decide. From the practical history, we see Arjuna did not receive a ritual mantra initiation, yet he became the shishya of Krishna simply by complete surrender (shishyas te 'ham shadhi mama tvam prapannam.

 

If we do prapatti to the guru, we become his disciple, it is that simple. When the guru accepts our surrender that is initiation, and his mere blessings plant the seed of transcendental knowledge (divya jnanam) in our heart.

 

Others may give more value to the metric distance between the guru and the disciple when he whispers in the ear of the shishya, but it is not the case in the scriptures or traditions.

 

Ramanuja received spontaneous initiation from Yamunacharya without having even spoken to him, after his guru had left his body. There was no chance for an external ritual, nor was there any need. Mantra diksha is distinct from this, as Ramanuja later received mantra diksha from Periya Nambi. Divya-jnanam is absolutely distinct from mantra diksha, though the mantra is sometimes given to the shishya to awaken the covered divya-jnanam (through sadhana).

 

The histories are full of stories of disciples who simply received the karuna of the guru, with out any formal mantra diksha.

 

Personalities such as Parikshit received divya-jnanam simply by hearing Srimad Bhagavatam. there was no need for an external ritual or for mantra diksha.

 

One may argue that in Chaitanya's line, Chaitanya has given stress to the ritual, but it is not true, for He Himself never gave mantra diksha.

I do appreciate what you have said. Thanks.

 

[Shashi]

Originally posted by Jagat:

If I were Rebecca, Peter, Gary, George or Don, I would ---------

 

First try being yourself.It will be hurting little bit at first but will be hurting everyones less at the end.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Shashi (edited 05-09-2002).]

[Jagat]

For woman following sati-vrata,you understanding importance of marriage, I am thinking.Like bumblebee going woman flowertoflower not good thinking me. Like that.

[paul108]

Maybe I'm being a little too outspoken here, but I do think diksa is important, enough so that I've been in a good deal of anxiety since Bhakti Marga Swami recommended that I wait another 15 to 20 years. I had to accept his recommendation, as difficult (while, somewhat paradoxically, also a relief) as it has been to accept at times. I just cannot understand how a conditioned person can take the strict vows of initiation when the three gunas are always competing for dominance. This is why I can't help but think the vows can only be made with real confidence by a liberated person. It would be easy to think that it is simply my own weakness that I am unable to fully live up to the vows I hope to someday take, but I know of so many devotees who have already broken their vows. I'm well aware that I'm not a perfect husband, but I have not broken my vows, and, God willing, I hope I never will. Come to think of it, devotees have an extrordinarily high divorce rate, which also stands as evidence that vows are often taken too lightly.

 

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

The four regulative principles that Srila Prabhupada asked his disciples to adhere to are the basis of basic human life. He recognized that he was accepting disciples that were accustomed to living very sinful lives on the level of polished animals.

 

Did Srila Prabhupada ask his disciples to chant 16 rounds and follow the four regulative principles, or was it required? I think there is a huge difference between asking something of someone and requiring a vow. If it was just a matter of promising to make a good effort, I would've done that years ago. However, because I can neither predict the future nor control material nature, I have to wait.

 

It's just a shame that some devotees would not accept me as one of them because of my reluctance to take vows that so many devotees fail to keep. Almost a year ago I hosted several devotees and their guru at my house for a home program. The guru insulted both my wife and I by commenting that a person who is not initiated should not cook for the Lord (we worship Gaura-Nitai and Jagannatha, Baladev, and Subhadra Deities in our home) and told his disciples that he would also chant mantras to offer the bhoga to Their Lordships along with me, implying that They would not accept the offering if it was just me doing the offering. It was a very strange contrast to be so insulted in our own home, compared to our last visit to New Vrindavana Dhama, when I was asked to give Bhagavad-gita class for nearly two hundred pilgrims on Sunday, and my wife was asked to cook their Lordships dinner. Of course neither situation was probably appropriate, but the one at New Vrindavan encouraged us, while the one in our own home was a source of discouragement.

 

Hari bol

[sha]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

Initiation day for me was like being 'officially' married in my soul to Krishna. My diksha guru was the one who joined us together for better or worse never do we part. Of course common law marriages are considered just as valid these days.

Dear Bhaktavasyadd,

 

Have all 'initiated' desciples truly felt that way 30 yrs ago? Or is it a recent discovery from the teachings of saints?

 

Which 'gopi' is 'officially' married to Krishna in a "public ceremony"?

Marriage is an institution designed for the mundane society.

In my humble opinion, no such 'ritual formality' is necessary for the seeking spirit soul. Our bond with Him is eternal and do not require formalities.<font color=#cccccc>

 

[This message has been edited by sha (edited 05-10-2002).]

[Shashi]

Originally posted by Jagat:

For woman following sati-vrata,you understanding importance of marriage, I am thinking.Like bumblebee going woman flowertoflower not good thinking me. Like that.

Same thing like going one guru to another all the times all while Guru is at home starving or at the doors needing cloth or care. Lord is also waiting for scholars in the deepside of their humble ignorances.

Be the humble bee not the bumble bee JagatJi!

 

 

[Shashi]

Originally posted by paul108:

Almost a year ago I hosted several devotees and their guru at my house for a home program. The guru insulted both my wife and I by commenting that a person who is not initiated should not cook for the Lord (we worship Gaura-Nitai and Jagannatha, Baladev, and Subhadra Deities in our home) and told his disciples that he would also chant mantras to offer the bhoga to Their Lordships along with me, implying that They would not accept the offering if it was just me doing the offering.

Do not be sad PaulJi. Just think Lordships got DOUBLE offerings that day. All in your own home!

Haribol!

 

 

[raga]

Originally posted by jndas:

Sri Chaitanya, whom most of us claim to follow, Himself did not give mantra diksha to any disciples. Yet He did have disciples. But most here will probably prefer to ignore this point as it strengthens the concept of a siksha parampara as opposed to a ritual parampara.

Of course it is common knowledge that Sri Caitanya did not have initiated disciples. He accepted mantra-diksa, though. And anyone who has read the story of Mahaprabhu's going to Gaya can't be but astonished of the power of receiving genuine mantra-diksa.

 

Nor did Caitanya Mahaprabhu write many books for that matter. Does this mean He discouraged people from writing bhakti-shastras, or said that it was not so important? No -- He left the work to His associates, such as the six Gosvamis of Vrindavan, whom He directly empowered for this work.

 

And in the same way, He empowered His near associates, particularly Nityananda and Advaita, to establish Gaudiya diksa-paramparas, which they did in a grand style, the former through His consort Srimati Jahnava Ma Thakurani. Among others, Gadadhara Pandit, Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, Narottama, Srinivasa and Syamananda started their own parivaras.

 

 

As to whether divya-jnanam (transcendental knoweldge) actually means a ritual initiation with a mantra, thats left for people with common sense to decide.

Since when did common sense become the final pramana on scriptural considerations? I suggest we leave it up to Jiva Gosvami to decide.

 

Why do you insist it is "ritual"? It is much more than a ritual. It is a ceremony of initiating and establishing an eternal bondage of love between the initiate, his guru, and the mantra-devatas. It includes the confirmation of a pursuit for the darshan of Bhagavat-svarupa and for the realization of a specific relationship with Bhagavan, as in the commentary of Jiva on this verse.

 

 

From the practical history, we see Arjuna did not receive a ritual mantra initiation, yet he became the shishya of Krishna simply by complete surrender (shishyas te 'ham shadhi mama tvam prapannam.

Yes, Arjuna was a siksa-disciple of Bhagavan. There was no diksa there, according to the definition of diksa in the Bhakti-sandarbha and Hari Bhakti Vilasa. Of course there is disciplehood there.

 

However, when we try to practically understand the meaning of "diksa" in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, we should see the examples set by those who established the tradition, and who had the same mode of upasana as the one for which we aspire. Arjuna was not a Gaudiya Vaishnava. He was an eternal associate of Bhagavan.

 

 

Others may give more value to the metric distance between the guru and the disciple when he whispers in the ear of the shishya, but it is not the case in the scriptures or traditions.

The scripture we have already demonstrated before. It is understood (Sad-gosvamy-astakam #2, Srinivasa Acarya) that the Gosvamis did a scrutinizing study of the revealed scriptures, and extracted the essence of sad-dharma into their books. We have presented ample evidence from the Gosvamis.

 

From the practical history, we see that the following personalities in the Gaudiya Sampradaya accepted mantra-diksa and declared their disciplehood to the mantra-guru, even if they chose to not give diksa themselves to anyone. I will first present an excerpt illucidating the thoughts of Rupa and Sanatana in this regard, and then proceed to present a list of prominent mantra-diksa-lines established by the associates of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

<blockquote>

"The Gaudiya Gosvamis were all the very embodiments of humility. They did not want to accept disciples, because they thought they did not deserve to be guru. Rupa, Sanatana and Raghunatha did not take any disciples. Lokanatha had also vowed not to give diksa to anyone, though he had to break his vow in the case of Narottama Thakura.

 

Rupa and Sanatana were concerned about the sisya-parampara (the line of disciplic succession) of the sampradaya, which had to be maintained. Mahaprabhu had solved the problem to some extent by authorizing and ordering Gopala Bhatta to give diksa; Rupa Gosvami tried to prepare at least one more person for the task. Jiva Gosvami was still young. Therefore he entrusted the responsibility to Raghunatha Bhatta. He asked Gopala Bhatta to initiate the people from the western region and Raghunatha Bhatta to initiate those coming from Gauda."

 

(OBL Kapoor, The Gosvamis of Vrindavana, chapter six)

 

Then we shall present the authorized mantra-diksa connections among several prominent personalities in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya. May this serve as an example illustrating the path of the Gaudiya Mahajanas.

 

<div align="center"><font color="#0000CC"><font color="#0000CC">Mantra-diksa-guru</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Initiated disciple</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Madhavendra Puri </font>--- <font color="#FF0000">Isvara Puri</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Madhavendra Puri </font>--- <font color="#FF0000">Advaita Acarya</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Madhavendra Puri</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Nityananda Prabhu</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Isvara Puri</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Caitanya Mahaprabhu</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Pundarika Vidyanidhi</font> -- <font color="#FF0000">Gadadhara Pandit</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Vidya Vacaspati </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Sanatana Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Sanatana Gosvami </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Rupa Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Rupa Gosvami</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Jiva Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Advaita Acarya</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Yadunandana Acarya</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Yadunandana Acarya</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Advaita Acarya</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Srinatha Pandit</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Srinatha Pandit</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Kavi Karnapura</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Prabodhananda Sarasvati</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Gopala Bhatta Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Gopala Bhatta Gosvami </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Damodara Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Gopala Bhatta Gosvami </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Gopinatha Pujari</font>

 

<font color="#0000CC">Gopala Bhatta Gosvami </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Srinivasacarya</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Srinivasacarya </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Ramacandra Kaviraja</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Ramacandra Kaviraja</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Hari Ramacarya</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Gadadhara Pandit</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Paramananda Pujari</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Gadadhara Pandit </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Ananta Acarya</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Ananta Acarya </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Haridasa Pandit</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Haridasa Pandit</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Radhakrishna Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Gadadhara Pandit</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Sri Krishna Dasa</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Sri Krishna Dasa </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Narayana Bhatta Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Narayana Bhatta Gosvami</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Sri Vrajavallabha</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Gadadhara Bhatta Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Advaita Acarya </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Lokanatha Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Lokanatha Gosvami</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Narottama Dasa</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Narottama Dasa </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Ganga Narayana Cakravarti</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Ganga Narayana Cakravarti </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Krishna Carana Cakravarti</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Krishna Carana Cakravarti </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Radha Ramana Cakravarti</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Radha Ramana Cakravarti </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Visvanatha Cakravarti</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Visvanatha Cakravarti </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Krishnadeva Sarvabhauma</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Sri Jahnava Thakurani </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Virabhadra Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Sri Jahnava Thakurani </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Ramacandra Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Sri Jahnava Thakurani </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Dhananjaya Pandit</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Dhananjaya Pandit </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Yaducaitanya Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Virabhadra Gosvami </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Gopijana Vallabha</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Virabhadra Gosvami </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Rama Krishna</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Virabhadra Gosvami </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Ramacandra</font>

<font color="#0000CC"><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#0000CC">Gauridasa Pandit</font></font></font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Hridaya Caitanya</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Hridaya Caitanya </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Syamananda Pandit</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Syamananda Pandit </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Rasikananda</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Rasikananda </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Nayanananda</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Sri Nayanananda </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Radha Damodara Dasa</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Radha Damodara Dasa </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Baladeva Vidyabhusana</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Vakresvara Pandit</font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Gopala Guru Gosvami</font>

<font color="#0000CC">Gopala Guru Gosvami </font> --- <font color="#FF0000">Dhyanacandra Gosvami</font>

</font></div>

 

These initiations have been performed by the recital of a sacred mantra from the mouth of the guru into the ear of the disciple.

 

Allegiance to the path of the Gaudiya Mahajanas commands us to follow the same tradition.

[sha]

Where is the sampradaya coming from Arjuna?

Originally posted by theist:

Oct. 9 1969 letter

 

My Dear Dinesh,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated October 21, 1969 along with a contribution of $25. I have already acknowledged receipt of your new record. Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion. Arjuna was a disciple of Krishna and Brahma was also a disciple of Krishna. Thus there is no disagreement between the conclusions of Brahma and Arjuna. Vyasadeva is in the disciplic succession of Brahma. The teachings to Arjuna was recorded by Vyasadeva verbatim. So according to the axiomatic truth, things equal to one another are equal to each other. We are not exactly directly from Vyasadeva, but our Gurudeva is a representative of Vyasadeva. Because Vyasadeva and Arjuna are of equal status, being students of Krishna, therefore we are in the disciplic succession of Arjuna. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another.....

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

[Jagat]

To Paul:

 

There are so many different philosophies about initiation. Saraswati Thakur deliberately set the bar very high because he was upset about the way that diksha was being conducted in the Vaishnava world at the time.

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakur says that the minimum commitment for chanting the Holy Name is four rounds. One should stop eating meat. But making excessive demands of householders in the busy Western world is a way of deliberately alienating people. I don't agree with it.

 

Iskcon has now started instituting an entire program of progressive initiation in India, with various levels of commitment. This is really unnecessary. Giving the japa mala is actually Harinam initiation. So if someone gives you mala (after chanting on it and blessing it) that is giving Harinam. This is not diksha as such. Mantra initiation for householders requires a greater degree of commitment to sad-achar, and the introduction of deity worship into the home. Since you are already doing this, I would say that you are qualified for initiation.

 

If you are committed to Bhakti Marga Maharaj and want to take initiation from him, then of course, you must be ready to accept the discipline he establishes. If he says wait 15-20 years, that is his way of testing you. That is his prerogative. You could say that by accepting his test you are proving yourself worthy and that, as our friends are all saying on this thread, that you have been initiated "internally." But that internal acceptance will only be "consummated" by seeing it through to the end and building up your commitment to the level that he demands.

 

As far as inviting sannyasis to your home is concerned: it is proper etiquette to ask the sannyasi to make the offering. To avoid being insulted, take the proactive stance of inviting the sannyasi to do it. (In fact, there are many sannyasis who would not eat the cooking of even an initiated householder. Even an initiated householder should invite a sannyasi, senior Brahmin, or respected Vaishnava guest to make the offering.

 

Your servant,

 

Jagat

[Jagat]

Well Shaji, this shows how the Kripalu philosophy differs from the Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

 

If our relationship with Krishna is eternal and needs no formalities, then what exactly are we doing in Maya? What is the necessity for sadhu sanga? I thought Krishna sent his devotees in the world to make prema available to the conditioned souls.

 

There is a difference between zraddhA, which is the beginning of the spiritual path, and sadhu sanga which is hearing, and bhajana-kriya which begins with initiation.

 

For Gaudiya Vaishnavas, raganuga bhakti is conducted on two levels. On the external level, they accept the rules of vidhi bhakti.

 

sevA sAdhaka-rUpeNa

siddha-rUpeNa cAtra hi

tad-bhAva-lipsunA kAryA

vraja-lokAnusArataH

 

zravaNotkIrtanAdIni

vaidha-bhakty-uditAni tu |

yAny aGgAni ca tAny atra

vijJeyAni manISibhiH

 

Aargh! I've got work to do!!!

 

[Jagat]

Shashi:

Same thing like going one guru to another all the times all while Guru is at home starving or at the doors needing cloth or care. Lord is also waiting for scholars in the deepside of their humble ignorances. Be the humble bee not the bumble bee JagatJi!

Once again, Shashiji, you are being opaque in your wisdom.

 

The guru is the point of commitment. After taking diksha guru one may go to siksha gurus, that is not a problem. But one's path is established by the formal connection to the diksha guru. That establishes the focal point, the spoke of the wheel.

 

The divine world is separated from us by a thin veil. It seems that we could go through at any point, but the fact is we must go through at one particular point. That is the guru.

 

Of course, if you are attached to Krishna and Radha without any formal connection, I will not despise you. Indeed, I will venerate you. But as long as I am somewhere on the lower rungs of spiritual advancement, it will be hard for me to think of you as family. (And I will understand if the feeling is mutual.)<small><font color=#f7f7f7>

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 05-09-2002).]

[theist]

Jagat said:

Of course, if you are attached to Krishna and Radha without any formal connection, I will not despise you. Indeed, I will venerate you. But as long as I am somewhere on the lower rungs of spiritual advancement, it will be hard for me to think of you as family. (And I will understand if the feeling is mutual.)

One of the things that attracts me to this Krishna consciousness understanding is the all inclusive nature nature of it.

 

I find it glorious that I have an eternal connection to Krishna and every other living being no matter what their present station.One big family brothers and sisters.

 

Of course we will group together in relation to our particular taste in devotional mellows.

 

But I must question the factual realization of life in those mellows by those who haven't even come to platform of equal vision and kinship with all living beings yet.

 

I accept you as family Jagat, for all eternity,rather you accept me or not.

 

Love to you brother soul.

 

theist

 

 

[sha]

For Gaudiya Vaishnavas, raganuga bhakti is conducted on two levels. On the external level, they accept the rules of vidhi bhakti

I do not follow 'your' interpretation of Raganuga bhakti sadhana.

Raganuga bhakti which is on superior platform doesnot 'require' the 'crutches' of the' external formalities' of the inferior Vaidhi bhakti sadhana.

 

I do remember also reading on these forums that the 'ritual of the formality of initiation' constitutes of Vaidhi bhakti sadhana and not a part of Raganuga bhakti sadhana, as the latter is completely internal, (Divine Grace) spiritual connection to Guru and Krishna alone, not an advertisement of joining into any fraternal club.

 

Here are the cherished verses copied from another board:

 

ragatmikaikanistha ye

vraja-vasi-janadayah

tesam bhavaptaye lubdho

bhaved atradhikaravan

 

tat-tal-liladi-madhurye

srute dhir yad apeksate

natra sastram na yuktim ca

tal lobhotpatti-laksanam

 

(Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 1.2.291-2)

 

'kRSNa tad bhakta kAruNya mAtra lAbhaika hetukA

pushti mArgatayA kaizcidiyaM rAgAnugocyate'

 

(Bhakti Rasmrita Sindhu)

 

'brahmAnDa bhramita kona bhAgyavana jIva

guru kRSNa prasAda pAya bhakti latA bIja'

(C.C.)

 

Sri Roopa Goswami has said -

"yena tena prakAreNa

manaH kRSNe nivezayat

sarve vidhi niSedhAsyur

ye tayoreva kimkaraH "

 

Whatever way helps the devotee to absorb his mind and heart in spontaneous Divne Love of Lord Krishna, the devotee should follow.

 

All the Vedic rules and subtle knowledge are otherwise, only SERVANTS of Raganuga Bhakti.

 

The servants of 'rules , regulations as well as formalities' just provide trivial assistance to the loving devotees if at all the need should arise.

 

This is also evident from Padma-purana, Brhad-sahasra-nama-stotram:

 

smartavyaH satataM viSNur vismartavyo na jAtucit

sarve vidhi-niSedhAH syur etayor eva kiGkarAH

 

"To always remember Vishnu, and to never forget Him -- all the injunctions and prohibitions are "servants" of this principle."

 

"yadA yamanu gRhNAti

bhagavAnAtma bhAvitaH

sa jahAti matiM

loke vede ca pariniSThitAM."

 

(Bhagavatam 4.29.46)

 

"When, contemplated upon with in the Loving Heart,

the LORD SHOWERS HIS GRACE ON SOME PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL,

 

THE DEVOTEE SO BLESSED GIVES UP HIS FAITH, HOWEVER DEEPROOTED,

 

in ALL the society rules, formalities and subtle Vedic knowledge."

 

Narada Bhakti Sutra says-

 

"nirodhastu loka veda vyApAranyAsaH" (8)

 

"vedAnamapi sannysya ti

kevalam avicchinnAnurAgaM labhate"(49)

 

"niveditAtma loka veda zIla tvAt" (61)

 

Caitanya Caritamritam Madhyalila- 8.8.220

 

Sri Ramananda Raya also says -

 

"ONE WHO IS ATTRACTED BY THAT ECSTATIC RAGANUGA BHAKTI OF GOPIS

DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THE REGULATIVE PRINCIPLES OF VEDIC KNOWLEDGE

OR RITUALISTIC WORSHIP according to the prescribed rules (? ceremonial formality of initiation) OR POPULAR OPINION.

 

RATHER, HE OR SHE COMPLETELY SURRENDERS UNTO BELOVED KRISHNA AND LOVES HIM THROUGH SPONTANEOUS ATTACHMENT."

 

(Readers may excuse the liberal use of the capitals as the messages are copied from another board.)

 

Of course, if you are attached to Krishna and Radha without any formal connection, I will not despise you. Indeed, I will venerate you. But as long as I am somewhere on the lower rungs of spiritual advancement, it will be hard for me to think of you as family.

[theist]

Especially for Paul, but also for us all.

 

This was copied from leyh's thread, HE LIVES FOREVER BY HIS DIVINE INSTRUCTIONS.

 

“Suppose you are trying to do something. Due to your inexperience if you sometimes fail, that is not a fault. You are trying." (His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers, Chapter 7)

[paul108]

Originally posted by Jagat:

To Paul:

As far as inviting sannyasis to your home is concerned: it is proper etiquette to ask the sannyasi to make the offering. To avoid being insulted, take the proactive stance of inviting the sannyasi to do it. (In fact, there are many sannyasis who would not eat the cooking of even an initiated householder. Even an initiated householder should invite a sannyasi, senior Brahmin, or respected Vaishnava guest to make the offering.

 

Thank you for your nice reply. However, although at risk of identifying the guru I was speaking of, I should add that he is a grihastha. Your advice would have been helpful, though. It's too bad I learned this piece of etiquette almost a year late.

 

My observations of my own tendencies supports your opinion that the demands required for initiation may be too stringent for many if not most householders. I could easily keep a vow of 4 rounds and no meat eating. Obviously 16 rounds and 4 regulative principles would be better, but it keeps me uninitiated because I can't maintain that every day. Most days I chant 16 rounds and keep 4 regs. However, when I fail to meet those requirements, there is no lower platform established so the difference between chanting 4, 8, or 1 round is fuzzy. Nothing less than 16 meets the requirement, so it's easy to quit for the day when I could've done a few more. Likewise there is no distinction between someone who has one glass of wine (I don't) and another person who smokes crack. Ironically, the system appears somewhat impersonal because although Srila Prabhupada sometimes bent the rules to accommodate sincere individuals into his society, that seems to have stopped with his departure. I know very little about the requirements held by other branches of Lord Caitanya's movement.

 

Hare Krishna