Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

[Jagat]

One of the things that attracts me to this Krishna consciousness understanding is the all inclusive nature nature of it.

How complex it all becomes!! Of course it is all-inclusive. But it is all-inclusive through the worship of Krishna. The whole world is my family, but I have a special family of bhaktas with whom I share the inner vision of the Divine. As human beings, as living entities, as creatures of the Supreme Divinity, we are all brothers and sisters, of course.

 

That is the vision we aspire to, and which we cultivate. In the stage of sadhana, we have to set limits and the first limit is on sanga. It's again like marriage. We keep our family life at home. We choose to keep the company of one wife (or four) and other close relatives, etc. That is the inner world. When you transcend this state of sadhana and become siddha, you can wander through the streets like a madman, in rain or snow, heat or cold, suffer the lashes of the envious and the insults of the blind, and respond with limitless love, inspired by the vision of divine mercy working endlessly in every atom of creation and the divine lila that is reflected in them.

 

=====

 

Raganuga bhakti differs from vaidhi bhakti principally in motivation and vision of the goal. In vaidhi bhakti these are unclear.

 

If one had lobha all the time, then one would be perfect and there would be no need for sadhana. So wherever there is sadhana, there is some kind of rule. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Thakur talks about vaidha-krama and raganuga-krama (see HNC) when discussing the process of smarana in his discussion of raganuga bhajan.

 

They are like two different phases of spiritual practice. When lobha arises, that is like pressing on the gas; your sadhana receives a spontaneous spurt of energy. But when lobh subsides, are you then to stop engaging in your spiritual practices because you don't feel like it?

 

Even so, the vaidha-krama, or devotional activity pushed by yukti or shastra, when it is engaged in order to achieve the goals that were set by lobha are not vaidhi bhakti, but raganuga bhakti. It's the anuga part that we have to remember.

 

Though raganuga breaks the rules and conventions, there is still a "sambandha" with the Divine Couple that needs to be established. Narottam says "When will Rupa say to the Divine Couple, 'Hey, check out this new sakhi Manjulali brought along.'"

 

Your relationship with Krishna is direct. Of course it is. So why do we need to clean the mirror of the mind? Why the "ceto-darpana-marjanam"?

 

Ys, Jagat

 

[raga]

Theist: Does mantra diksa refer to gaytri/ brahmana initiation?

Mantra diksa certainly refers to gayatri-mantra initiation. There are currently two aspects to the concept "mantra initiation".

 

1. Pancaratrika mantras -- Gopala Mantra, Kama Gayatri and possibly other mantras depending on one's lineage, which are given by a Vaishnava guru when the disciple desires to begin the worship of Bhagavan.

 

2. Vaidhika mantras -- Brahma Gayatri, which is given at the time of upanayana samskara (the sacred thread ceremony) to a brahmin boy.Both of them may be called "mantra initiation".

 

The first is the "mantra initiation" traditionally given by Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas. It was the innovation of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati to join the two into one initiation, in which the initiate was also given the status of a "brahmana" in varnasrama dharma. Hence this occasion is sometimes called "brahmin initiation", though traditionally it is not related with brahminhood in varnasrama-dharma at all.

 

[theist]

Originally posted by raga:

 

Indeed, it is related by Haridas Thakur in the Caitanya Caritamrta how even the reflection of the Holy Name (namAbhAsa) delivers a person. The difference between the chanting of namabhasa and suddha-nama is a feeling of special relationship, visesa sambandha, with Bhagavan.

 

This is where the relevance of receiving diksa and the diksa-mantras comes in. To eventually come to the platform of suddha-nama, the diksa-mantras are given to facilitate the development of a specific relationship with the mantra-devata.

raga,

If I understand you correctly you are saying that the name alone is not sufficent to bring one to the platform of pure chanting but only to the level of liberation that is produced by nama-abhasa.

 

But what about verse 109

"By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entaglement in material activities.After this, one becomes very attracted to Krsna, and thus dormant love for Krsna is awakened."

It appears that you are adding a step,gayatri diksa,suggesting the Name alone is not sufficent.

 

Many items are helpful in chanting the name, but isn't the Name alone really sufficent?

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-09-2002).]

[raga]

Theist: If I understand you correctly you are saying that the name alone is not sufficent to bring one to the platform of pure chanting but only to the level of liberation that is produced by nama-abhasa.

It is sufficient. No need for diksa. Even there no need to study shastra, to associate with devotees, to visit the holy dhama, to accept a guru at all, to follow any regulative principles and so on. The Holy Name will take care.

 

But it may take you a while.

 

Therefore we do all these things. They help us to very quickly come to the platform of chanting suddha-nama.

[theist]

raga,

Thanks for the clarification of mantra diksa.

 

I take it we agree the Name stands independent of such procedures.

 

Is it true that Bhaktisiddhanta was acting in terms of time place and circumstance when he added the giving of the sacred thread?

[theist]

Originally posted by raga:

It is sufficient. No need for diksa. Even there no need to study shastra, to associate with devotees, to visit the holy dhama, to accept a guru at all, to follow any regulative principles and so on. The Holy Name will take care.

 

But it may take you a while.

 

Therefore we do all these things. They help us to very quickly come to the platform of chanting suddha-nama.

Understood.

 

 

[Rati]

Looks like theist mistakenly thought he was quoting me, but really was quoting someone else, as I never made those statements. Raga, please fix the above quote so that it is clear the theist is asking those questions and not me. Thanks.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 05-09-2002).]

[raga]

Theist: I take it we agree the Name stands independent of such procedures.

nAma cintAmaNiH kRSNaz caitanya-rasa-vigrahaH

pUrNaH zuddho nitya-mukto 'bhinnatvAn nAma-nAminoH

 

 

Is it true that Bhaktisiddhanta was acting in terms of time place and circumstance when he added the giving of the sacred thread?

Everyone in this world acts in terms of time, place and circumstances. Whether one does the right thing is another issue.

 

Most of the people never accepted the innovations of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. But this would be the subject matter of another discussion. To maintain peace in the forums I suggest to not start one.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Most of the people never accepted the innovations of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. But this would be the subject matter of another discussion. To maintain peace in the forums I suggest to not start one.

To be honest, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's branch of the Gaudiya vaishnava sampradaya has certainly accomplished the most amazing feats of all Indian religious groups in the last few hundred years. But for the sake of maintaining peace I won't point out the futility of other dried up branches of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-09-2002).]

[theist]

Originally posted by Rati:

To say the mantra initiation is not essential is totally ludicrous, for without the mahA-mantra, where is the movement?

 

 

Rati, these were your words, which inspired the questions, and the questions were mine.

 

The quote when carried over the second time in ragas post does give a wrong impression.

 

theist

 

theist

 

[Rati]

Originally posted by jndas:

To be honest, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's branch of the Gaudiya vaishnava sampradaya has certainly accomplished the most amazing feats of all Indian religious groups in the last few hundred years. But for the sake of maintaining peace I won't point out the futility of other dried up branches of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

 

I think many thriving branches on the Caitanya tree might take extreme umbrage at that remark, sir. It smacks of elitism and brutal sectarianism in the extreme. Perhaps you might want to rethink that one, if indeed you are interested in keeping the peace.

 

Since you did not actually name any one group, it is not really possible for anyone to be directly offended, however the implication of your statement (at least the way many would interpret it) is that all other branches have become useless. Also, the use of the superlative ("most amazing feats") indicates making light of the accomplishments and realizations of many Gaudiya saints that also did quite amazing things.

 

 

 

[theist]

raga,

For future reference I don't understand a word of samskrt.Sorry.

 

Since we have agreed that the Name is sufficent for all success, and that name has been spread throughout the world by the line of Bhaktisiddhanta...well,I won't ask you the question as the answer is obvious.

 

I sense that this has been the lurking backdrop of this discussion in some respects anyway.

 

I don't know your position but some contend Bhaktisiddhanta was never initiated formally therefore his mantras have no effect,therefore those initiated in his line aren't really, and so need to be properly initiated by someone in some other Gaudiya group.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I think many thriving branches on the Caitanya tree might take extreme umbrage at that remark, sir. It smacks of elitism and brutal sectarianism in the extreme.

It was supposed to, mainly because it was a joke in response to Raga's obvious personal dislike for Bhaktisiddhanta.

 

Most of the people never accepted the innovations of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.

[Rati]

I basically am watching from the sidelines, but it really is apparent that those 'other dried up branches', as JNDas has called them, have taken the high road, whereas JNDas's group clearly has not. From what I know (not that I have complete knowledge in the matter, by any stretch), both Gaudiya Math and ISKCON received both moral and financial support from those factions JNDas is alluding to over the years. Looks like a clear case of 'biting the hand that feeds you'. So, what kind of reciprocation is turning around and denigrating one's benefactors? Would anyone one call that gratitude?

 

And that support was in spite of the various departures from tradition. So, based on the track record, who is the one holding a grudge and in need of burying the hatchet?

 

[Rati]

I understand your reaction to Raga's remarks, JNDas, but I think you may have misjudged his attitude towards Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada. He really does not strike me as a person that would have enmity towards other Vaishnavas, even those he may disagree with.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Since we have agreed that the Name is sufficent for all success, and that name has been spread throughout the world by the line of Bhaktisiddhanta...well,I won't ask you the question as the answer is obvious.

I think that would sum up my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Rati]

When Raga pointed out that most did not accept BSS Prahupada's innovations it was clear that he was referring to the Caitanyaite community in West Bengal and Braj. Thus, it was really just a statement of fact, because clearly they were not accepted, and certainly they were not adopted.

[raga]

JNdas:But for the sake of maintaining peace I won't point out the futility of other dried up branches of the Gaudiya sampradaya.

Right. I guess we all have our standards for "dried up". Some consider "not active in expanding" to be "dried up", while some consider "often lacking in depth of practice" to be "dried up".

 

 

It was supposed to, mainly because it was a joke in response to Raga's obvious personal dislike for Bhaktisiddhanta.

JNdas, I am initiated into a different lineage from his, and therefore I do not personally endorse all of his innovations. Nevertheless, I have no particular like or dislike for him. I appreciate many of the contributions of his and his followers' to the spreading of the culture of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

Why do you think that everyone should be preoccupied with an "attachment/aversion" trip? Not everyone is limited to a conception where they see their own particular group as supremely excellent and others as inferior and worthy of dislike.

[Jagat]

Please don't start on this subject, Raga, Rati and JN. We all bow down to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and his disciples and take the dust of their lotus feet.

 

We bow down to the feet of Gaur Kishor Das Babaji and take the dust of his lotus feet.

 

We bow down to the feet of Bhaktivinoda Thakur and take the dust of his lotus feet.

 

We bow down to the feet of Jagannath Das Babaji and take the dust of his lotus feet.

 

We bow down to the feet of Baladeva Vidyabhushan and take the dust of his lotus feet.

 

We bow down to the feet of Vishwanath Chakravarti Thakur and take the dust of his lotus feet.

 

We bow down to the feet of Narottam Das Thakur and take the dust of his lotus feet.

 

We bow down to the feet of Krishna Das Kaviraj Goswami and take the dust of his lotus feet.

 

We bow down to the feet of Sanatan, Rupa, Gopal Bhatta, Raghunath Das, Raghunath Bhatta and Sri Jiva Goswami and take the dust of their lotus feet.

 

Our happiness comes from seeing Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's name being glorified throughout the world through their mercy.

 

If we have differences, it is details. Let us not insult one another.

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 05-09-2002).]

[raga]

--- jokes aside ---

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-09-2002).]

[Rati]

Since the subject of ISKCON and its parent organization has been broached here, I think many will admit that Srila Prabhupada's followers had a tendency to improvise on their own. For example many of them started chanting Shree Vishnu three times before drinking water, thinking that was a legitimate means of offering the water directly to Vishnu (perhaps some of them still do this). As far as I know that was never a practice introduced by either his Divine Grace or the GBC. Of course, I won't even mention one of the more extreme examples, the infamous Gopi-bhava Club (oh, there I go again, I just did!), but I think eveyone gets the point. That is perhaps generally symptomatic of large institutions, wherein the logistics of quality control of standards and practices gets overly unwieldy in certain respects.

 

I digress.

 

Getting back to the topic at hand, dIkSA - we have to keep in mind the difference between a guru-ziSya relationship that is quite intimate and involves much personal contact and that which is more of a long distance relationship with little or no contact. Again, the institutional logistics come into play, for how would it be feasible for any one spiritual master to have a close relationship with hundreds or thousands of disciples far flung around the globe?

 

Despite all of the accomplishments achievable by large institutions, there is always the tradeoff and essential components lost in the shuffle.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jagat,you made a great point.

You criticized me for not accepting your words as Guru,as I have stated that everything is seen as guru by the advanced devotee.

This is why neophytes are not advised to do this.

What if someone said to me "eating meat is a good thing", should I accept his word as Guru?

No,that is not what I would do.

Why?

It is necessary to discern instructions from non-instructions.

For the neophyte this is to difficult,and can be confusing.

when i said that the Guru ,can be percieved everywhere,in everything,that does not mean that instructions are coming from everywhere in everything.

It means that you can understand that everything is controlled by Guru,God,the ultimate Guru.

If this is possible for you,to be able to discern what is Guru,then Guru can appear everywhere in everything,anytime,all the time,not for instructions,but for communication.

The Guru as instructor is manifested in the message from the sastra,sadhu,or Gurudeva.

God manifesting as Guru everywhere,is different,and meant only for the devotee who is expert in siddhanta,and will not be swayed or confused by what he/she will experience.

[raga]

Shiva: This is why neophytes are not advised to do this.

What if someone said to me "eating meat is a good thing", should I accept his word as Guru?

No,that is not what I would do.

Still the advice about commas was a good one worthy of being adopted. In all lineages.

[Jagat]

Like singing yAni kAni ca pApAni after tulasi kRSNa preyasi namo namaH, which is the only raganuga song in Iskcon.

 

It's like Venu Gopal Goswami singing Shiva Shiva after Radhe Radhe. Not even Gopishwar Mahadeva!

<hr>

The key passage to understand in the relation between mantra diksha and the Holy Name is found in Jiva Goswami's Bhakti Sandarbha.

 

Jiva discusses the act of initiation itself in several places. Having already discussed the sovereign importance of the holy names of Krsna, for which initiation is not necessary, in the spiritual life of a devotee, he considers the possibility that initiation in the mantra is not necessary either:

Now consider the following: the mantra itself consists of names of the Lord. Added to that are words indicating submission such as namah or svaha, etc., through which the Lord and the seers have endowed the mantra with some special potency. Furthermore, they are capable of awakening a specific personal relationship with the Lord. [Of all these ingredients] in the mantra, the names of the Lord alone are independently capable of giving its reciter the supreme goal of life [i.e., prema]. Thus we find that in the mantras there is an even greater power than can be found in the name alone. In view of all these considerations, why then is there any necessity for initiation?

 

The answer is as follows: there is no fundamental necessity for initiation. Nevertheless, because people are generally by nature caught up in bad habits and are unable to concentrate due to bodily associations, etc., the great seers and others have on occasion established some fundamental regulations here and there calling for the performance of worship of the deity (arcana-marga) in order to reduce such bad habits and lack of concentration. For this reason, the scriptures call for the performance of penances as an atonement for the non-performance of such deity worship.

 

Where neither of these faults (bodily and mental aberrations) are prominent, there is no need for initiation. The regulations spoken of are refered to in the following verse from Brahma-yamala, which states that exclusive devotion to Hari that is independent of the injunctions of the scriptures only causes a disturbance.(64)

Once again, initiation from the guru is not given primary status by Jiva: it is not a magical act like the sakti-pat of the Kasmiri Saivas. It is functional in that it opens the door to the performance of deity worship, through which one can become purified and strengthen one's sense of identity in relationship to the Lord. Jiva elaborates on this later on, maintaining the same tension between the absolute powers of any devotional act and the necessity of initiation and worship of the deity.

Even though in the opinion of the Bhagavata there is no absolute imperative for the performance of deity worship, as it is in the Pañcaratra and other systems, and one can attain the supreme perfection of life through the performance of any aspect of devotion beginning from self-surrender (saranapatti), nevertheless those who follow in the path of Sri Narada, etc., and wish to establish a particular relationship with the Lord bestowed by the guru through the process of initiation, should certainly engage in deity worship once they have thus been initiated.(65)

 

"Because it bestows divine knowledge and destroys sin, it is called diksha by the learned scholars. Therefore one should humble himself before the guru, offer him all his wealth and take the Vaishnava mantra from him through the authorized process of initiation."(66)

 

The term "divine knowledge" here refers to the knowledge of the specific form of the Lord contained in the holy syllables of the mantra and knowledge of a specific relationship with that Lord.(67)

Taken from <a href=http://www.harekrsna.com/vada/nugas/param.htm>"The Parampara Institution in Gaudiya Vaishnavism"</a>. You can find the Sanskrit text and references there. (I think.)

 

Jagat<small><font color=#dedfdf>

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 05-09-2002).]

[Jagat]

What an astute reading of my post, Shivaji. Here is my latest instruction: "Don't go jumping off any cliffs, now."<small><font color=#f7f7f7>

 

[This message has been edited by Jagat (edited 05-09-2002).]