Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

[Rati]

And I am just now wondering why the Shashi is taking every opportunity to be obnoxious just to show off his/her clever (?) wit. Frustrated actor maybe?

 

[Shashi]

Originally posted by theist:

I like the focus on hearing guru everywhere.Although I am troubled at what I perceive as a dissolution of the relationship with the individual person that brought one to the dance.

I also.

 

 

[theist]

Does it matter if shiva considers himself to be advanced or neophyte?

 

Let's just address his points.

 

If he really is perceiving guru everywhere he will also be hearing guru through someone who corrects him right here and now.If he doesn't hear then we can understand he is a neophyte.If he does hear then we can know he has some level of real advancement.That is if our objections to what he says are sound.

 

Jaya Jesus,Hare Krsna

[Rati]

I find a charming poetic quality to Shiva's posts. Also, he is doing much better with commas and paragraphs.

 

Now he just needs to raise the bar for himself philosophically. As Jagat has opined: He shows much potential.

[theist]

I like the focus on hearing guru everywhere.Although I am troubled at what I perceive as a dissolution of the relationship with the individual person that brought one to the dance.

[raga]

Originally posted by theist:

Does it matter if shiva considers himself to be advanced or neophyte?

 

Let's just address his points.

 

If he really is perceiving guru everywhere he will also be hearing guru through someone who corrects him right here and now.If he doesn't hear then we can understand he is a neophyte.If he does hear then we can know he has some level of real advancement.That is if our objections to what he says are sound.

 

Jaya Jesus,Hare Krsna

Naturally one hears and sees the guru everywhere, viz. Bhagavata 11th canto and the story of the avadhuta. Nevertheless there is diksa-guru and siksa-guru who are persons with whom you have a clear personal relationship of submission and learning. You are *dedicated* to learning from them, from them you do not learn according to your fancy, as you may do with the guru "out there".

 

I wonder if it is possible to hear the guru in others, if one is not even able to hear the guru in the Gosvami Granthas, considering their external meaning to be for the less advanced, and the real meaning to be something opposed to or different from what is given therein.

 

Let us hear the advice of Mahaprabhu (CC. M. 134, 135, 137):<blockquote>mukhyArtha chADiyA kara gauNArtha kalpanA

abhidhA-vRtti chADi kara zabdera lakSaNA

 

"Rejecting the direct meaning, by imagination you give secondary meanings. By giving up the literal understanding, you interpret the words."

 

pramANera madhye zruti pramANa pradhAna

zruti ye mukhyArtha kahe, sei se pramANa

 

"In the midst of various evidences, the sruti is the prime evidence. Whatever is the direct meaning, that is evidence indeed."

 

svataH-pramANa veda satya yei kaya

lakSaNA karile svataH-prAmANya-hAni haya

 

"The Vedas are the self-evident truth. Whenever we start interpreting, their self-evident nature vanishes."</blockquote>

 

 

 

[abhi_the_great]

I read the song Sri Rupa Manjari Pada, addressed to Rupa Goswami in his eternal form. The author prays to become his/her servant, to serve him/her to serve the divine couple. If there is no personal relatioship, which continues beyond material time, then how is it possible? The author is no neophyte - sakshad Narottam Das Thakur.

 

Sri-rupa-manjari-pada, sei mora sampada,

sei mor bhajana-pujana

sei mora prana-dhana, sei mora abharana,

sei mor jivanera jivana

 

........

ciro-dina tapita jivana

ha ha rupa koro doya, deho more pada-chaya,

narottama loilo sarana

 

Also, we know that the spiritual master of Srila Narottam was Loknath Goswami. Then how did Narottam develope a taste to serve Sri Rupa directly?

 

[abhi_the_great]

Another interesting read on Guru Topic!!

 

Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya Lila, Chapter 8, TEXT 128

 

TEXT

kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya

yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' hay

SYNONYMS

kiba--whether; vipra--a brahmana; kiba--whether; nyasi--a sannyasi; sudra--a sudra; kene--why; naya--not;

yei--anyone who; krsna-tattva-vetta--a knower of the science of Krsna; sei--that person; guru--the spiritual master;

haya--is.

TRANSLATION

"Whether one is a brahmana, a sannyasi or a sudra--regardless of what he is--he can become a spiritual master if he

knows the science of Krsna."

PURPORT

This verse is very important to the Krishna consciousness movement. In his Amrta-pravaha-bhasya, Srila Bhaktivinoda

Thakura explains that one should not think that because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was born a brahmana and was situated in

the topmost spiritual order as a sannyasi, it was improper for Him to receive instructions from Srila Ramananda Raya, who

belonged to the sudra caste. To clarify this matter, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu informed Ramananda Raya that knowledge of

Krishna consciousness is more important than caste. In the system of varnasrama-dharma there are various duties for the

brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras. Actually the brahmana is supposed to be the spiritual master of all other varnas,

or sects, but as far as Krishna consciousness is concerned, everyone is capable of becoming a spiritual master because

knowledge in Krishna consciousness is on the platform of the spirit soul. To spread Krishna consciousness, one need only be

cognizant of the science of the spirit soul. It does not matter whether one is a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, sannyasi,

grhastha or whatever. If one simply understands this science, he can become a spiritual master.

It is stated in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa that one should not accept initiation from a person who is not in the brahminical order

if there is a fit person in the brahminical order present. This instruction is meant for those who are overly dependent on the

mundane social order and is suitable for those who want to remain in mundane life. If one understands the truth of Krishna

consciousness and seriously desires to attain transcendental knowledge for the perfection of life, he can accept a spiritual

master from any social status, provided the spiritual master is fully conversant with the science of Krishna. Srila

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura also states that although one is situated as a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra,

brahmacari, vanaprastha, grhastha or sannyasi, if he is conversant in the science of Krsna he can become a spiritual master

as vartma-pradarsaka-guru, diksa-guru or siksa-guru. The spiritual master who first gives information about spiritual life is

called the vartma-pradarsaka-guru, the spiritual master who initiates according to the regulations of the sastras is called the

diksa-guru, and the spiritual master who gives instructions for elevation is called the siksa-guru. Factually the qualifications

of a spiritual master depend on his knowledge of the science of Krsna. It does not matter whether he is a brahmana,

ksatriya, sannyasi or sudra. This injunction given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is not at all against the injunctions of the

sastras. In the Padma Purana it is said:

na sudrah bhagavad-bhaktas

te 'pi bhagavatottamah

sarva-varnesu te sudra

ye na bhakta janardane

One who is actually advanced in spiritual knowledge of Krsna is never a sudra, even though he may have been born in a

sudra family. However, even if a vipra, or brahmana, is very expert in the six brahminical activities (pathana, pathana,

yajana, yajana, dana, pratigraha) and is also well versed in the Vedic hymns, he cannot become a spiritual master unless he

is a Vaisnava. But if one is born in the family of candalas yet is well versed in Krsna consciousness, he can become a guru.

These are the sastric injunctions, and strictly following these injunctions, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, as a grhastha named Sri

Visvambhara, was initiated by a sannyasi-guru named Isvara Puri. Similarly, Sri Nityananda Prabhu was initiated by

Madhavendra Puri, a sannyasi. According to others, however, He was initiated by Laksmipati Tirtha. Advaita Acarya,

although a grhastha, was initiated by Madhavendra Puri, and Sri Rasikananda, although born in a brahmana family, was

initiated by Sri Syamananda Prabhu, who was not born in a caste brahmana family. There are many instances in which a

born brahmana took initiation from a person who was not born in a brahmana family. The brahminical symptoms are explained

in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.11.35), wherein it is stated:

yasya yal-laksanam proktam

pumso varnabhivyanjakam

yad anyatrapi drsyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiset

If a person is born in a sudra family but has all the qualities of a spiritual master, he should be accepted not only as a

brahmana but as a qualified spiritual master also. This is also the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Srila

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura therefore introduced the sacred thread ceremony for all Vaisnavas according to the rules

and regulations.

Sometimes a Vaisnava who is a bhajananandi does not take the savitra-samskara (sacred thread initiation), but this does

not mean that this system should be used for preaching work. There are two kinds of Vaisnavas--bhajananandi and

gosthy-anandi. A bhajananandi is not interested in preaching work, but a gosthy-anandi is interested in spreading Krsna

consciousness to benefit the people and increase the number of Vaisnavas. A Vaisnava is understood to be above the position

of a brahmana. As a preacher, he should be recognized as a brahmana; otherwise there may be a misunderstanding of his

position as a Vaisnava. However, a Vaisnava brahmana is not selected on the basis of his birth but according to his qualities.

Unfortunately, those who are unintelligent do not know the difference between a brahmana and a Vaisnava. They are under

the impression that unless one is a brahmana he cannot be a spiritual master. For this reason only, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

makes the statement in this verse:

kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya

yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya

If one becomes a guru, he is automatically a brahmana. Sometimes a caste guru says that ye krsna-tattva-vetta, sei guru

haya means that one who is not a brahmana may become a siksa-guru or a vartma-pradarsaka-guru but not an initiator

guru. According to such caste gurus, birth and family ties are considered foremost. However, the hereditary consideration is

not acceptable to Vaisnavas. The word guru is equally applicable to the vartma-pradarsaka-guru, siksa-guru and diksa-guru.

Unless we accept the principle enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this Krsna consciousness movement cannot spread

all over the world. According to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's intentions: prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama sarvatra pracara

haibe mora nama. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult must be preached all over the world. This does not mean that people should

take to His teachings and remain sudras or candalas. As soon as one is trained as a pure Vaisnava, he must be accepted as a

bona fide brahmana. This is the essence of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's instructions in this verse.

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

[raga]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

I read the song Sri Rupa Manjari Pada, addressed to Rupa Goswami in his eternal form. The author prays to become his/her servant, to serve him/her to serve the divine couple. If there is no personal relatioship, which continues beyond material time, then how is it possible? The author is no neophyte - sakshad Narottam Das Thakur.

 

Sri-rupa-manjari-pada, sei mora sampada,

sei mor bhajana-pujana

sei mora prana-dhana, sei mora abharana,

sei mor jivanera jivana

 

........

ciro-dina tapita jivana

ha ha rupa koro doya, deho more pada-chaya,

narottama loilo sarana

 

Also, we know that the spiritual master of Srila Narottam was Loknath Goswami. Then how did Narottam develope a taste to serve Sri Rupa directly?

Narottama explains this in his Prarthana. First, in song 17, he is praying for it:<blockquote><font face="Georgia" color=blue>4. prabhu lokanatha kabe sange lana jabe

sri-rupera pada-padme more samarpibe

 

When will my master, Lokanatha Gosvami, place me at the lotus feet of Srila Rupa Gosvami?</font></blockquote>Then, in song 19, he attains the same:<blockquote><font face="Georgia" color=blue>

 

1. sri-rupa pascate ami rahiba bhita hana

donhe punah kahibena ama pane cana

 

I timidly follow behind Sri Rupa-manjari. When will she say to me: "Fetch some water for the Divine Couple?

 

2. sadaya hrdaya donhe kahibena hasi

kothaya paile rupa ei naba dasi

 

When will the Divine Couple, compassionately smiling, say: "Where has Rupa-manjari gotten this young maidservant?"

 

3. sri-rupa-manjari tabe donha bakya suni

manjulali dila more ei dasi ani

 

Hearing these words, Sri Rupa-manjari will say: "Manjulali gave this maidservant to me."

 

4. ati namra-citta ami haibe janila

seba-karya niya tabe hethaya rakhila

 

At that time I will feel very humble at heart, and I will diligently engage in the service of the Divine Couple.

 

5. hena tattwa konhakare saksate kahiya

narottame sebaya mijukta kariya

 

When will the Divine Couple directly speak in this way to Narottama dasa, engaging him in Their service?</font></blockquote>

 

Lokanatha is Manjulali Manjari in Vraja-lila.

 

This is exactly the reason why I object to the idea of emphasizing the aspect of samasti-guru while devaluating the relationship with the vyasti-guru. Our relationship with the particular vyasti-guru is clearly and specifically eternal, with this very individual.

<font color=#fefefe>

 

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-20-2002).]

[abhi_the_great]

Wonderful explanation raga. Thankyou!! I am completely satisfied.

[Bhaktavasya]

 

me too. Thankyou

[Guest guest]

Raga, you can't seem to make up your mind,

either what I am saying is to advanced to speak to the public at large, or not advanced enough to be called gaudiya siddhanta , which is it?

 

Hey, you either get it , or you don't.

 

You're either ready, and the truth will be understood by you, or you still need to understand the literal words and ideas expressed in sastra.

 

whatever.

 

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 05-21-2002).]

[raga]

Originally posted by shiva:

Raga, you can't seem to make up your mind,

either what I am saying is to advanced to speak to the public at large, or not advanced enough to be called gaudiya siddhanta , which is it?

 

Hey, you either get it , or you don't.

 

You're either ready, and the truth will be understood by you, or you still need to understand the literal words and ideas expressed in sastra.

 

whatever.

 

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 05-21-2002).]

I suggest it is simultaneously either or both, depending on our eligibility.

 

As stated in the Shiva-samhita (3.122):

 

Hey, you either get it , or you don't.

 

[Audarya lila]

Just a quick note on this subject.

 

We sing the guruv astakam prayers every morning. The seventh stanza starts our with the idea that the Guru is directly of the quality of Hari - saksad-daritvena. In order to represent God one must be of the same quality as God, above the three modes of nature - nirguna. Thus the Guru must be spiritually situated.

 

When Srila Prabhupada first explained the significance of being initiated he said that the disciple must consider the Guru to be as good as God, saksad-daritvena. But if we look a little further down in the verse we see that Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur says - kintu prabhor ya priya eva tasya. "However, Sri Guru is also very dear to Hari." Thus he is directly Krsna, yet dear to him at the same time.

 

So we can ascertain from the above that the intial understanding is that Guru is as good as God, or that he is directly Krsna. But in time, with realization, the disciple will see his Guru as more than God. What could be more than God? As Krsna, God bows down to his devotees. He is conquered by their love. Thus to see Sri Guru as the dearmost devotee of Krsna implies higher realization on the part of the disciple than to see him as saksad-daritvena.

 

I think this is in keeping with what Raga prabhu has written above and consistent with the Gaudiya theology on subject.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

 

[raga]

It is very consistent. Thank you.

 

I hear the voice of Tripurari Maharaja there, is it not?

[abhi_the_great]

tomara hridoye sada govinda vishram

govinda kohena mora vaishnava pran

[Audarya lila]

Dear Raga,

 

Yes, you certainly hear the voice of Sripad B.V. Tripurari Swami in what I wrote. I am his disciple, as you know, and I try to represent him to the best of my abiility and understanding. What I wrote above is from one of his writings - although edited to make it suitable for the topic under discussion.

 

Your posts both on this thread and on various threads in different forums have been very nice. I really appreciate your balanced approach.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

[raga]

Dear Audarya Lila Ji,

 

I noticed from the style it was certainly coming from him, even if not verbatim.

 

I appreciate much his broad-minded vision, which extends to honor the entire Gaudiya tradition. I was, I must admit, surprised when he spoke with great regard of Radha Raman Caran Das Babaji (nitai-gaura radhe shyam). If people would recognize and honor the religious variety within the Gaudiya tradition, understanding the plural needs in a world of individuals, I think a good number of problems resulting from aparadha would be uprooted from the society of vaishnavas.

 

Yours,

 

Madhavanandadas

 

[Guest guest]

 

raga, what are you saying?

you say, that what I say is both legitimate,and bogus.

how can this be?

 

Also to Audharya-lila, the Guru is not more then God, the Guru is God.

The devotee who is being used as a medium for God, is dear to God, but hardly more.

 

The diksa or siksa Guru is accessible to you,while the Personality of Godhead may not be so.

Therefore the devotee as Guru is of more importance for the purpose of connecting to God. The Guru is never more then God, The Guru is God, and the advanced devotee does not see the Devotee Guru as being better then,or more then God, He sees the mercy of God flowing through ,making God accessible to him/her.

 

 

[raga]

raga, what are you saying?

you say, that what I say is both legitimate,and bogus.

how can this be?

Very easily it can be. I already quoted from the Shiva-samhita (3.122):

 

"Hey, you either get it , or you don't."

 

What you're saying is a fully legitimate view for you, and you are entitled to view everything as you desire and best understand.

 

However, it is not the Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta. It is not what I've heard from any guru in ISKCON, it is not what I've heard from any guru in Gaudiya Math, it is not what I've heard from any guru among the traditional Gaudiyas, and I have never read it in the scriptures.

 

If you wish to learn the Gaudiya siddhanta on guru-tattva, you must go and submit yourself to the lotus feet of a genuine guru and hear the teachings from his lotus mouth.

 

Therefore I have concluded:

 

"I suggest it is simultaneously either or both, depending on our eligibility."

 

Is that all right with you?

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Sounds pretty.

means nothing.

 

the truth is revealed in the sastra.

Srila prabhupada said whenever Krsna speaks,there are 7 different meanings in his words.

the sastra does indees confirm what i say,it is hidden from those who are not ready.

like i said earlier, does aquiring a 4 armed form really mean you will have 2 arms growing from each shoulder? Or is the hidden meaning meant to convey an embrace by 2 people?

If the reality of the sastra is hidden from your vision now,do not fret, everything in good time.

[Audarya lila]

Dear Shiva,

 

Apparently you did not read my post very thoroughly. I was quoting Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakur and his Guruv astakam prayers. Yes, it is correct to understand that Krsna comes to the honest soul in the form of Sri Guru. But our vision of who Sri Guru is will evolve as we evolve in our devotional service. Ultimately we will see Sri Guru in his/her relationship with Krsna. We will see Sri Guru as the dearmost servant either as a gopa or gopi assisting the divine couple in their dance of love.

 

We are not impersonalists. Sri Guru is a person - a devotee. Sri Guru has his/her eternal place in the service of the divine couple and makes arrangements for the same for us in due course.

 

Sri Guru is more than God not just because it is through Sri Guru that we come into contact with God, but more importantly, because Sri Guru is the dearmost servant of God and when he recommends us we will have sure and certain entrance into the divine realm. Our philosophy is achintya beda abeda tattva - inconceivable and simultaneous oneness and difference. You are acknowledging the oneness side but forgeting the difference. It is the difference that allows us entrance into divine service - lila seva.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Guest guest]

 

A.lila- what you just said is true.

although you do not really understand what the implications of those words are.

 

The guru indeed does introduce you to your eternal rasa.

That rasa is servant of the servant.

If you think that your diksa guru is sporting with Krsna in vraja and can bring you into that lila,.. first you need to understand what that means.

It's not that your guru is living in a dreamlike state in Vrndavan acting as a gopi, or manjari or whatever,..while here on earth.

That is a misconception,due to a lack of realization of sastra.

If any guru tells you he knows your position as such and such manjari, he is lying.

Srila Prabhupada never ,ever, did such,and criticized those who did,.. as sahajiyas.

 

The bonafide guru knows that Mahaprabhu's pastimes, are non different from Krsna lila.

He is engaged in the service of Mahaprabhu(who is Radha Krsna),through the service of His gurudeva.

This is the proper understanding.

Your entrance to divine lila is done like this,through you helping your guru serve his guru, all engaged in the transcendental divine lila of Sri Gauranga,..then you are factually engaged in your eternal rasa.

Those who think that fantasizing about some future as a manjari is the real goal of service to the Guru,are living in a fantasy.

 

The bona fide Guru is living in the divine lila, here and now.

By serving him, so are you.

 

The desire for some future reward for your devotional activity, thinking you can be a manjari, is completely wrong headed.

 

Divine lila is here and now, the pure devotional attitude is that of using what you have in the service of your guru, not that you spend you energy schemeing for some future fantasy of sense enjoyment and position.

 

Try to understand,.. Goloka is both Krsna lila and Gaura lila, going on simultaneously.

They are intertwined, for those who are able to appreciate this highest reality,..then they are most fortunate..and engage in divine lila here and now.

 

[raga]

Originally posted by shiva:

If you think that your diksa guru is sporting with Krsna in vraja and can bring you into that lila,.. first you need to understand what that means.

It's not that your guru is living in a dreamlike state in Vrndavan acting as a gopi, or manjari or whatever,..while here on earth.

That is a misconception,due to a lack of realization of sastra.

If any guru tells you he knows your position as such and such manjari, he is lying.

Srila Prabhupada never ,ever, did such,and criticized those who did,.. as sahajiyas.

 

Shiva, have you ever heard of Bhaktivinoda Thakur? Have you read his works?

 

Bhaktivinoda gave siddha-pranali to many of his followers, revealing their manjari-identity. He also contemplates on himself in his manjari-identity during his presence in this world, as follows (Gitamala, Siddhi-lalasa, Song 8):

<blockquote><font face="Georgia" color=blue>

(1)

barane tarit, basa tarabali,

kamala manjari nama

sare bara barsa, bayasa satata,

swananda-sukhada-dhama

 

"This maidservant has a complexion just like lightning, and she is wearing a sari which has star like decorations all over it. My name is Kamala Manjari. Eternally appearing to be only twelve-and-a-half years of age, I always live within the abode of Svananda-sukhada-kunja."

 

(2)

karpura seba, lalitar gana,

radha juthesvari hana

mamesvari-natha, sri nanda-nandana,

amar parana dhana

 

I render the service of preparing the camphor within the assembly of Lalita Sakhi, of whom Sri Radha is the leader and the center of all their activities. And the Lord of my mistress Radha is the delightful Son of Nanda Maharaja, Who is also the treasure of my life.

 

(3)

sri rupa manjari, prabhrtir sama,

jugala sebaya asa

abasya se-rupa, seba pabo ami,

parakasta su-biswasa

 

I always desire to execute conjugal service similar to that which is rendered by Sri Rupa Manjari and her associates. Thus I will certainly get utmost conviction and faith.

 

(4)

kabe ba e dasi, samsiddhi labhibe,

radha-kunde basa kori'

radha-kunda-seba, satata koribe,

purba smrti parihari'

 

When will this maidservant thus attain such complete spiritual perfection, living by the banks of Sri Radha-kunda? I will eternally serve Radha and Krsna, and all of my previous memories will be automatically forgotten.</blockquote></font>

 

Do you accept the authority of Bhaktivinoda Thakur in this regard, or is he also living in a dream world of hallucinations? I can present more of his teachings in this regard if you wish.

 

Visvanatha Cakravarti tells very clearly in his Gurvastakam, prayers to Sri Guru, how Sri Guru is here, and also in the Divine realm serving Radha-Krishna Yugala:<blockquote><font face="Georgia" color=red>zrI-rAdhikA-mAdhavayor apAra-

mAdhurya-lIlA guNa-rUpa-nAmnAm

prati-kSaNAsvAdana-lolupasya

vande guroH zrI-caraNAravindam

 

"The spiritual master is always eager to hear and chant about the unlimited conjugal pastimes of RAdhikA and MAdhava, and Their qualities, names, and forms. The spiritual master aspires to relish these at every moment. I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of such a spiritual master."

 

nikuJja-yUno rati-keli-siddhyai

yA yAlibhir yuktir apekSaNIyA

tatrAti-dAkSyAd ati-vallabhasya

vande guroH zrI-caraNAravindam

 

"The spiritual master is very dear, because he is expert in assisting the gopIs, who at different times make different tasteful arrangements for the perfection of RAdhA and KRSNa?s conjugal loving affairs within the groves of VRndAvana. I offer my most humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of such a spiritual master."</font></blockquote>

 

Do you accept the authority of Visvanatha Cakravarti?

 

Don't say it sounds good but we do not understand what it means. All of this is learned through the disciplic succession from the lotus mouth of a guru. If you do not accept such a process of learning in your personal life, how do you expect to understand such things, what to speak of being qualified to teach their real meaning to others who have accepted the sampradayika method of learning?

 

[Audarya lila]

Well Shiva, we will have to agree to disagree on your last post. You appear to be misinformed with regard Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

I never mentioned sense gratification or some type of 'reward' or future 'position'. These are strictly your concoctions.

 

You say that the idea that our goal is to enter into the divine lila is a sahajiya conception that wasn't supported by Srila Prabhupada - but you are quite misinformed if that is your conclusion.

 

Please read the poem that Srila Prabhupada composed aboard the Jaladuta on his voyage to America. He does not talk to an imaginary Krsna or call his spiritual master the dearmost of Krsna because he is engaged in fantasy. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta revealed his eternal spiritual identity to his sisyas and Srila Prabhupada is one of his dearmost servants. Do you think he was unaware of his Guru's spiritual identity or of that of Srila Bhaktivinoda's? Do you think that he was unaware of his own spiritual identity? Do you think that this was just some fantasy or mental concoction?

 

Yes, his identity is dasa dasanudasa - but it is also specific in relation to Krsna - not simply general. We are meant to develop an inner life as sadhakas - not fantasy, but actual feeling and reality in relation to our ista devata.

 

Here is a nice section from an article written by my Guru Maharaja that covers some of these points:

 

"Although Krsna says that the dearest to me is he who preaches the message of Bhagavad-gita to the devotees, it should be understood that a genuine preacher is also a practitioner and thus his preaching is effective because it is backed by realization. In the immortal words of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, “He who preaches has life.” Effective preaching is under the jurisdiction of Krsna’s svarupa sakti. Sri Kaviraja Goswami says krsna-sakti vina nahe tara pravartana, without krsna sakti one cannot effect the hearts of others. Real preaching requires this background. He who is dear to Krsna is one whom he has embraced with is svarupa sakti. This is the investment of Krsna in the jiva by which he becomes a mature devotee. Krsna manifests his svarupa sakti in his devotee’s heart and makes him dear to him by giving him a place in his lila seva.

 

Rupa Goswami explains suddha-sattva-visesatma prema-suryamsu-samya-bhak rucibhis citta-masrnya-krd asau bhava ucyate. This verse describes the dawning of bhava bhakti, the fruit of sadhana. Sri Rupa explains that at that time the devotee experiences the samvit and hladhini sakti of Krsna, suddha-sattva-visesatma. His heart is softened and a particular taste manifests in his heart, rucibhis citta-masrnya-kad asau bhava. Then he can do bhava seva, lila seva.

 

There is no seva more dear to Krsna than lila seva because it represents mature realization and actual love of God. While one who preaches is the dearest to the Lord in this world, the result of having endeared oneself to Krsna in this way is that the Lord takes him to the spiritual world. He activates his svarupa and such a devotee serves him then in both his sadhaka deha as a preacher and in his sidha deha in Krsna’s lila."

 

You seem to doubt these concepts but they are foundational to Gaudiya siddhanta and are fully supported by the writings of our acharyas.

 

Guara-lila and Krsna lila are both eternal, no doubt and they are eternally intertwined. As Gaudiyas, our understanding is that we worhip Gauranga who grants us entrance into Krsna lila. What gift do you think it is that Gauranga is giving out freely to even the most unqualified?

 

If you think that it is all a fantasy then why are you involved?

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa