Diksa initiation ,is it a magic wand?

[raga]

I would like to quote from the Harinama Cintamani of Thakur Bhaktivinoda in this regard.

<blockquote><font face="Georgia" color=brown>Verses 59-60

 

bhAva sAdhane paJca-dazA

 

Five stages of attaining bhava

 

ei ekAdaza bhAva sampUrNa sAdhane

paJca dazA lakSya haya sAdhaka jIvane

zravaNa varaNa Ara smaraNa Apana

sampatti e paJca-vidha dazAya gaNana

 

The complete realization of these eleven aspects of identity

develops through five stages experienced in the life of the practitioner.

These five stages are the following: (1) hearing, (2) acceptance,

(3) remembering, (4) attainment and (5) full possession. (31)

 

[Footnote by Bhaktivinoda Thakura:] (31) As one progresses in the cultivation of one's spiritual identity, five stages are progressively crossed. These are shravana-dasha "the state of hearing", varaNa-dasha "the state of accepting", smaraNa-dasha "the state of remembering", Apana-dasha "the state of adoption", sampatti-dasha "the state of full possession".

 

sei gopI-bhAvAmRte jAnra lobha haya |

veda-dharma-loka tyaji se kRSNe bhajaya ||

vraja-lokera kona bhAva layA yei bhaje |

bhAva-yogya deha pAiA kRSNa pAya vraje ||

 

"One who has a strong desire to taste the nectar of the gopis' loving mood abandons all consideration of the religious principles of the Vedas. He cares not for public opinion, but simply worships Krishna... Whoever worships Krishna in any one of the moods of the residents of Vraja will attain a suitable spiritual body to serve Him there." (CC 2.8.219, 221)

 

With these words, Ramananda Raya taught that any practitioner who wishes to cultivate the ujjvala-rasa absolutely must take a gopi body. When one hears these pastimes of Lord Krishna and becomes attracted to this particular mood, one must approach a genuine spiritual master to learn these eleven aspects of his spiritual identity. Hearing the spiritual master delineate this identity in theory is called shravana-dasha (the stage of hearing). When the disciple eagerly accepts this identification, that is called varana-dasha (the stage of accepting). When she cultivates this mood and identity by meditating on rasa, in all its aspects, then she is situated on the stage of remembering (smarana-dasha). When she has fully assimilated that identity, which has now been made fully clear, she has reached the state called apana-dasha or prapti-dasha (the stage of attainment). Finally, when she becomes entirely separated from this earthly existence and becomes eternally fixed in her longed-for spiritual form, she has attained the sampatti-dasha (the stage of full possession).

 

........

 

Verses 64-68:

 

rAdhA-kRSNa aSTa-kAla yei lIlA kare

tAhAra zravaNe lobha haya ataHpare

lobha ha-ile guru-pade jijJAsA udaya

kemane pAiba lIlA kaha mahAzaya

gurudeva kRpA kari karibe varNana

lIlA-tattve ekAdaza bhAva-saGghaTana

prasanna ha-iyA prabhu karibe Adeza

ei bhAve lIlA-madhye karaha praveza

zuddha rUpe siddha bhAva kariyA zravaNa

sei bhAva svIya citte karibe varaNa

 

As the aspiring devotee hears about Radha and Krishna's aSTa-kAliya-lIlA,

he starts to feel an intense desire one to join Them in Their activities.

Possessed by this desire, he asks the spiritual master,

"O great soul, what must I do to attain these pastimes?"

The spiritual master then mercifully describes to his disciple

the eleven aspects and how they relate to the Lord's lila.

Pleased with his disciple, the spiritual master then orders him,

"Now go and enter the Lord's pastimes in this identity."

On hearing of his eternal spiritual identity with a pure attitude,

the aspirant accepts it and takes it into his heart.</blockquote></font>

 

In fact, attraction to and aspiration for the emotions of Sri Krishna's eternal associates and related pastimes is a fundamental principle for raganuga bhakti, as is evident from the verse sevA sAdhaka-rUpena etc. You know this verse, Shiva?

 

I recommend reading the Q/A section I recently compiled on Raganuga Bhakti at www.raganuga.com/qa to get a clear grasp of the basics of the Gosvamis' conceptions.

<font color=#fefefe><small>

 

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-22-2002).]

[Jagat]

Shiva has been adamant from the beginning that he does not accept any sampradayika authority. He is following his own path, for he sees the guru everywhere.

 

We shape the present by our futures, Shiva. There is no such thing as being without becoming. Nietzsche said, "Become what you are."

 

So what are you? I mean, really.

 

 

[raga]

like i said earlier, does aquiring a 4 armed form really mean you will have 2 arms growing from each shoulder? Or is the hidden meaning meant to convey an embrace by 2 people?

This is a fanciful idea, but lacks support from anywhere. When Vishnu is described as holding conch, lotus, club and chakra, one in each of His four hands, does he actually hold lotus and club in one hand, and chakra and conch in the other hand? Please consider the following:

_<LI>In the Gita, when Sri Krishna showed His universal form, Arjuna begged Him to show His four-armed form on the battlefield of Kuruksetra, and then finally resumed his two-armed form, which is called mAnuSaM rUpam, "humanlike form". Evidently the four-armed form was not a human-like form with two arms, since the embrace of two persons would have been very human-like.

_<LI>When Krishna appeared as the son of Devaki and Vasudeva in a four-armed Vishnu-form, Vasudeva and Devaki requested Him to kindly assume a human-like two-armed form. They did not tell Him to stop embracing.

_<LI>When the Vishnudutas (residents of Vaikuntha) came to deliver Ajamila (SB 6.1.35), they all had a four-armed form, carrying conch, lotus, club and chakra in their hands, according to the description of the Yamadutas. Certainly the Yamadutas would have mentioned if the Vishnudutas had come in pairs of two, embracing each other, and each having lots of stuff in their hands.

_

Now, of course in Vaikuntha they also put down the club, lotus, conch and chakra on their leisure time, but on duty they keep them along in their four arms.

_<LI> When Dhruva Maharaja was brought to Vaikuntha by the Vishnudutas, the Vishnudutas who came with the divine airplane had four arms (SB 4.12.20). If Dhruva saw them all embracing each other in pairs of two, this makes us reason that the vimana was perhaps on auto-pilot. Well, everything is possible.

_<LI>And Mahaprabhu in his six-armed feature, is it that there were two persons embracing him at the same time when he revealed this form of His? Wow.

_<LI>In the tenth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam (10.89.55), Maha-Vishnu is described as having eight arms. Must be a lot of people embracing him at once.

 

In all fairness, I must say that for your own good, Shiva, for your healthy spiritual progress, I suggest you find a living person-guru under whose guidance you practice your spiritual life, and with whom you check the validity of your realizations before assuming they are the ultimate spiritual insight. Would this be an absurd proposal?

 

<small>

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-22-2002).]

[raga]

Do you know why Lord Brahma has four arms? No, it's not because he's embracing someone. He has a lot of brainwork to do with his four heads, and he needs four hands to be able to scratch them all simultaneously when he's creating the universe again. Would you agree, Shiva?

 

[Shashi]

Originally posted by raga:

Do you know why Lord Brahma has four arms? No, it's not because he's embracing someone. He has a lot of brainwork to do with his four heads, and he needs four hands to be able to scratch them all simultaneously when he's creating the universe again. Would you agree, Shiva?

 

Are you being morning or evening raga?

 

 

[Jagat]

For that matter, are you being atmika or anuga raga? I know the answer...

[raga]

Originally posted by Jagat:

For that matter, are you being atmika or anuga raga? I know the answer...

Who told you? This is super confidential!<font color=#dedfdf><small>

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-22-2002).]

[raga]

Originally posted by Shashi:

Are you being morning or evening raga?

 

 

I am following in the wake of early morning clusters.

[Guest guest]

You can quote anyone all you want.

You can fantasize all you want.

For you maybe it is a good thing.

For those who desire to attain a position

maybe it is a good thing for them.

 

For those who do not desire a position, a reward, the practice of "raganuga sadhana",

is unecessary and a waste of time.

 

That sadhana is meant for those who are unable to appreciate and enter directly into Goloka, here and now.

 

If you feel attracted to following the path of the babajis, and consider yourself a manjari, then go ahead, think about making garlands, think about applying ungents, think about preparing everything very nicely for the conjugal relations of the gopis.

It is no doubt a purifying activity.

I never said it was not a bona fide activity.

 

For those who desire to please Gauranga in the here and now, without expectation of position or reward, they are eligible to enter into the divine lila of Goloka, here and now.

 

For them the reality of Gaura lila and Krsna lila are experienced here and now.

For them there is no need for meditation on some future self indulgence.

For them the sankirtan lila is Goloka Dham,and they will experience the highest realization and ecstacy here and now.

 

The only qualification is to be free of the desire to place the desires and self indulgent activities of trying to gain from devotional service,above spreading the message of Godhead,and pleasing the devotees.

The bhakta who desires to please the Personality of Godhead without expectation of reward, serving out of the desire to please for the sake of Mahaprabhu's, the acaryas, and the devotees pleasure, he/she is eligible to enter into the highest realm and rasa here and now.

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 05-23-2002).]

[Guest guest]

 

Oh one more thing, when you get your four armed form ,how does that work?

Our shoulders can only accomodate one arm on each side.

You would need a very large unwieldy,bulky,

thing.

Would the extra arms come out of your armpits?

The top of your shoulders?

How would that work exactly?

have you thought this out sufficiently?

Do you know anatomy?

Do you think it would be comfortable?

Or practical?

Hot about these things?

Is it true that in Goloka they have only two arms?

Why then if now we have two arms,and in Goloka they have two arms,would having four arms be a good thing?

Seems like if it was a good thing they would have four arms in Goloka.

This is what i mean when i say sastra has hidden meanings.

[Guest guest]

 

I was waiting for you to show evidence that Bhaktivinode told disciples that they were manjari suzy or whoever.

 

Assuming he did,and it's not a concoction from someone with an agenda,here is the reason why.

 

Like a parent who tells his child here is some candy,although it really is medicine..or tells the child that the visit to the dentist will not be painfull...or that he can grow up to be anything he wants...

The acarya might tell someone who needs to believe that he is superior to others, and the highest devotee, and will be rewarded with the highest reward for his sravana and kirtana...that he in fact is superior and even a gopi mary or gopi lisa. And he is so advanced, much more advanced then others.

This has a psychological effect on the devotee, inspiring someone who has lost the taste for hearing ,chanting,sadhu sanga etc.., and fixes him on the path of hearing and chanting once again.

 

The acarya may actually lie to him, like a parent telling a lie to a child for his benefit.

 

 

[Audarya lila]

Dear Shiva,

 

I don't know why you insist on speaking out about that which you are clearly uninformed about. It is clear that you need guidance.

 

The discussion was centered on the identity of Sri Guru. You were provided sastric evidence that is accepted by all branches of Gaudiya vaishnavas regarding the identity of Sri Guru as the dearmost of Krsna and that Sri Guru is indeed not just a concept of Krsna empowering a devotee to represent him and that we ignore that person and only see Krsna there. No, it is not like that, and you have been given some proof from the sastra - not something whimsical or developed through speculation. These are the conclusions of our Acharyas.

 

You are misunderstanding the point because you are thinking that you can gain access to these truths through your mind and senses, which are mundane.

 

The tattva is really fairly simple. You have an eternal identity and you are meant to discover what that is. Not just in a philosophical way - that I am a servant of the servant of the servant - which is certainly true - but you have an eternal spiritual identity complete with a name and form etc. The top most Mahabhagavata devotees of the lord, as was mentioned in a previous post, are directly involved with the Lord in their siddha deha and are doing lila seva. They are also, simultaneously available to us neophytes to help us to advance and gradually disolve our material ego and uncover our actually identity. That is Krsna's mercy. If you doubt the authenticity of this then you doubt Jiva Goswami who has expressed this very truth in his writings.

 

The Guadiya Matha position and that which is followed by it's various off-shoots which include ISKCON, is that this svarurpa will be revealed naturally to the sadhaka when he/she matures in devotion. The conception of our particular lineage (I include myself here because my Guru Maharaja is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and Sridhara Maharaja), is that what is discussed by Bhaktivinoda Thakur in his Jaiva Dharma as well as in Harinama Cintamani is for advanced sadhaka's. This type of information is not meant, according to our lineage, for general consumption - but only for those who have the adhikara for it. In this we differ from other lineages, but we certainly do not deny the tattva or call it imaginary or fanciful.

 

Your material conception is most inappropriate. It is not about fanning the ego. It is about uncovering the real ego. Overall I have to say that what you have presented is ill informed at best. Not only do you need to acquaint yourself with the writings of our Acharyas, but it is quite obvious that you need good guidance.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Guest guest]

 

Sorry ..your grand highness..but your concept is way off..Bhakti is about transforming your consciousness, from egotistical self indulgence, averse from giving love freely, to pure unadultered consciousness,self aware as an unalloyed lover of God.

Your idea that bhakti is meant to reveal your position as such and such person, in another reality,..is the purpose of those particular teachings,that focus on that.

For those who are averse to serving Guru and Gauranga, "without expectation of reward", then your limited, inexperienced conception might apply.

 

Mahaprabhu did not create the sankirtan movement for your self indulgent fantasy life.

He created Goloka.

Your ability to appreciate the divine lila here and now, is due to your ability or inability to give of yourself without expectation of reward,or demand for position in some future hierarchy.

 

This is Goloka consciousness, the residents of Goloka are not concerned with some future life, they do not give it a second thought.

Why?

Because they are factually living in the highest realm,to them devotional service is not a vehicle to a higher level of self importance or sense enjoyment.

Bhakti is performed out of the desire to please God,not out of the desire to gain a future promotion.

 

Just like the mystic yogis who are told, "if you perform such and such activity ,then you will gain such and such power"...then by performing the activity, the yogi is purified of the desire for exploitation of god's energy..and no longer desires to gain mastery over God.

 

The teachings of Gaudiya siddhanta are like that,..if you desire position and fame..then the "raganuga sadhana" will purify you of that desire.

If you are free from the desire to gain from Bhakti,then your eternal position will indeed be revealed as a matter of course.

That position is as servant of the devotee.

 

Who was the devotee who said his "only desire was to take birth, life after life in the material world so he could taste the transcendental nectar of the sankirtan movement".

That is the purpose of Bhakti,to develop that consciousness..

[Audarya lila]

Dear Shiva,

 

I am sorry you took offense to my post. I take it you feel that my pointing out to you that your presentation is against the teachings of our Acharyas in some makes you feel justified in calling me mr. high and mighty.

 

The fact is, I am a lowly worm at best - but that does not mean I will not present the proper siddhanta as I have understood it.

 

I am following Sri Guru and GAuranga. My spritual master is Sripad Tripurari Swami and I follow his instructions to the best of my ability. I am flawed, no doubt, but I am serving Sri Guru and GAuranga according to explicit instructions from my Guru Maharaja.

 

You are right that Bhakti is both the means and the end. You totally misunderstand what I have said and twist it into some sort of pleasure seeking concept. Where have I ever said anything of the type? You misunderstand Gaudiya Siddhanta and I have pointed that out. I don't consider myself high and mighty for having done so. The fact that I have some theorhetical understanding of the proper siddhanta says nothing about my standing as a sadhaka.

 

I know you have been asked by several devotees who it is that you have as a guide and you have chosen not to reveal that, or you do not have a guide. You speak of serving Sri Guru and Gauranga, but that is not an abstract idea. Service to Sri Guru is personal and he/she will give you direct service suitable for your proper advancement and will also help develop your understanding of proper Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

I see nothing in your posts that indicates that you have proper guidance.

 

You seem to doubt the very concept that there are different rasas and that each of us have an eternal svarupa. Where did you get the concept that this idea is based on sense gratification or pratistha? This is not the teaching of any bona fide Acharya.

 

From the very beginning a bona-fide Acharya will inform his/her sisya about the spiritual world and give him/her a proper conceptualization of that world. This is elementary and foundational to Gaudiya siddhanta. Please read Bhakti rasamrita sindhu. There you will find detailed information that will remove your doubts and clear your misconceptions. The basis of all spritual relations is dasya. You will always remain as a servant.

 

Anyway, this is really off the topic somewhat, but not completely. Without proper guidance, which is what this thread was intended to address, no one will be able to progress beyond the mind and false ego. I say it again, and if you choose, you can certainly take offense to it - you need good guidance.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Guest guest]

I don't take offense,..merely pointing out the fact that you speak words..without realization.

Yes, the concept of the eternal realm of Vrndavana and the rasa's there, are a part of gaudiya siddhanta.

The neophyte concieves of these things in one way,the madyhama in another, and the uttama in another.

 

Depending on your need you will concieve of these things in a particular way.

The neophyte gives more thought to learning ,hearing, and chanting, trying to become qualified to enter into the higher realm.

The madyhama realizes that service to the guru, is the quicker process of gaining entrance to the higher realm and rasa.

The uttama adhikari realizes his eternal nature,no longer strives to attain the highest realm or rasa,and wholeheartedly engages in recipricol relations with the devotees here and now.He/she has no concern about some future position or rasa,they are engaged in the eternal now,here.

They know that the spiritual world,goloka, is manifest in the here and now,and take advantage of that reality.

They leave the future in the hands and desire of the Personality of Godhead.

 

[This message has been edited by shiva (edited 05-24-2002).]

[Audarya lila]

Dear Shiva,

 

When I speak I do so based on my own realizations and the authority of scripture. When I speak about that which is beyond my experience I don't speculate, rather I am careful to present those topics which are beyond my level of experience as they have been presented by those whom I accept as proper authorities on the subjects under discussion.

 

You are certainly not an uttama adhikara as is evident from you misconceptions and presentation, which is at odds with our Acharyas. There are many gradations of realization. The topmost devotees see Krsna personally and serve him in his lila in their siddha deha and here in this world in their sadhaka deha. That statement is based on scripture, not my personal experience. But, since I am a sadhaka and I am practicing bhakti yoga under the guidance of a bona-fide spiritual master, I take the scripture as my authority for that which is beyond my present experience.

 

Here is the URL for a very nice article written by Bhaktivinoda Thakur and orignally published in Sajjan Tosani. You will find that it covers many of the points that I mentioned previously as well as in this post.

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/guardians_fs.html

 

You will have to copy the enitre URL if it wraps in order to access the page.

 

Of the sixty four angas of bhakti that Rupa Goswami delineates in the Bhakti rasamrita sindhu, the first four have to to with accepting proper guidance. Without starting at the beginning no one can hope to progress any furhter. That is the proper course to take if anyone genuinely wants to serve Krsna. Otherwise, it is simply talk.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Audarya lila]

click on Nityananda Mahajana to access the article once you go to the URL above.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Guest guest]

 

i think you miss my point..your concept is limited by your ability..the sastra can say one thing ..and have multiple meanings.

 

What one person sees as the purport of a sastric thought,another might see a different purport...all is based on your ability...and God's desire.

 

You may believe one way now,another way 10 years from now.. this has been your experience..has it not?

When you first read sastra,is your conception the same today?

 

As you gain realization, not simply philosophical learning, or the ability to repeat what you have read,but actual realization of eternal truths and reality,

then your purport to a sastric verse will be different then when you first came in contact with it.

 

For example a neophyte might think he is very advanced ,the society in general is ignorant of Mahaprabhu,and his position as a Bhakta might cause him to think that he is very special and an advanced soul,a mahatma among men.

But as he enters into the association of vaisnavas,his self conception will change,no longer will he see himself as advanced ,he will be humbled and percieve his true position, as a beginner,not a master.

 

In this way our conception of reality changes as we change,what we percieve as truth and absolute reality at an early stage ,may be seen as completley foolish at a later stage.

 

When Krsna says to Arjuna "no one is dearer to me then you", the neophyte might see that one way,and later in a different way.

The verse is the same, the viewer has changed.

 

 

[Jagat]

Shiva treats siddhanta like punctuation. Why bother with rules? That's a neat new invention, Shiva..two dots. What does it..mean?

 

By the way, it's not that I have anything particularly against mental speculation, but I detest it when mental speculators think they have just discovered sliced bread. That's what irritates me about Nietzche, too, except that Nietzsche at least was a damned fine writer.

 

Aesthetic beauty masks a myriad of evils. Mata Hari knew this. Beauty combined with reason, now there is a definition of "the good."

[raga]

 

I would like to submit the following notes:

 

1. Despite not having accepted the shelter of the lotus feet of a sad-guru and hearing from his lotus mouth, nevertheless one considers his understanding to be the highest, or perhaps the only realized one, and that of the others as superficial at best, if not entirely incorrect.

 

2. A person who places his realization above the actual writings and practices of the recognized acaryas, all the while without having proper guidance himself, not placing himself in the position of an inquirer but rather that of a teacher, feeling his insight is superior to that of all others, is babbling mere humbug a hundred times over.

 

3. A person who speaks without reference to scriptures, and without allegiance to the mahajanas, all the while demanding that his understanding be accepted as the supreme, is a bogus rascal according to the definition of Swami AC Bhaktivedanta.

 

Sincerely yours,

 

The observer.

[Guest guest]

 

He'ith that smellt'ith it, hath verily

dealt'ith it

 

Why accept anything as other then speculation?

 

Why accept your Guru, sastra, sadhu ?

 

How do you know it isn't all just speculation?

 

How can you tell what you think is the truth ,actually is the truth?

 

Where do you make the distinction?

 

Aren't all your sources considered speculation by some ,authoritative by others?

 

How do you judge ?

 

What is your realization?

 

Have you seen the truth?,..or are you just accepting on faith?

 

 

[raga]

Shiva,

 

You are indeed right in your ontological ponderings in the posting above.

 

Indeed, what is reality for one is a speculation for the other, and vice versa. It is a matter of our faith. Even what we experience as realization is a matter of our faith. Therefore I asked the question whether you follow the precepts of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. I assumed you do, since you commented on discussions which had to do with Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta.

 

However, if you readily admit that you differ in view from many of the Gaudiya acaryas, remaining firm in your own realizations, then I must wish you all success in your innovative endeavor to discover the sweet reality you long for.

 

Discussions on Gaudiya siddhanta must be based on the epistemic foundation of Gaudiya Granthas and Gaudiya Acaryas. If we wish to discuss other matters, then we have to establish another foundation for our discourse.

 

[Guest guest]

 

My point is that faith is not enough.

Yoga means to link,to connect, to yoke your consciousness with the all pervading supreme consciousness.

In fact we are always connected to it, but in our conditioned state we are unaware of the connection.

 

The sastra, in fact any scripture in any religion is for this task, to connect us with our true nature.

 

The reality we believe to be true,is in fact due to the desire and manipulation of the controller of our conscious ability.

 

The reality that is expressed in any scripture may not be the highest absolute truth, or it may actually be.

 

The truth is percieved and understood in the yoga process through direct perception, faith brings you to the table, the meal served is the conscious ability to re-integrate our consciousness with the supreme all pervading consciousness, gaining the ability to commune with it constantly, due to our consciousness being part of it.

 

So faith is the beginning,leading through the various spiritual practices ,enabling our conscious ability of participation in transcendental lila,or play.

 

This abilityto play with God, is attainable here and now,this is the meaning of yoga.

 

The sastra is a guide or textbook for the mind,bringing us to the point of total awareness and knowledge.

 

At that stage of preparedness we are brought into a higher reality, that reality might be different then what we thought it would be, while we were in the educational phase of our existence.

[raga]

My point is that faith is not enough.

It certainly is not everything. As related by Rupa, after faith (the beginning) comes sadhu-sanga, then absorption in acts of bhajana, then cessation of unwanted elements, and so forth.

 

But would you mind addressing this one question of mine, Shiva, just to get a fruitful platform for our dialogue -- do you follow the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, or have you chosen to pick select parts of it to be joint with an outlook of your own design?

 

[Guest guest]

 

I amsk what i am ,olivsk