Guest guest Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 The starting point of the thread is whether Lord Krishna could have sung the Gita to Arjuna ? Or is it an interpolation. The problem that comes with interpreting vedic literature without considering the mystical aspect is pointless. It is reasonable to assume that when the Lord speaks the time stops. It is mysterious but it is not impossible. Even we may be able to do it in the future. It may be possible to teleport ourselves to an alternate universe and return to the same point in this space time continuum. Let us say we only accept the first two chapters of the Gita as real based on A. L. Bhashyam, it is sufficient to establish the complete philosophy of the Gita. The lord says in the 2 nd chapter that we are eternal and His special position is that He remembers past, present and the future where as jivas like Arjuna do not. This shows that the Lord has a pre-eminent position compared to us. If we were to accept only two words of the Gita, it is sufficient to establish that the Lord is Supreme. dharma kshetre - sastric definition of dharma is dharmam tu sAksAt bhagavad prAnitham. This establishes there is a Supreme Lord. If we even accept the first slokam of Bhagavad Gita as real, then we have to accept the truth of mysticism. This is because dhradharashtra is asking to Sanjaya to give a television view of what is happening in kurukshetra. Obviously there were no televisions then. The moment we accept the mysticism of the sastras and the master of all mystics, the jigsaw puzzle of the Vedas will fall in place. Where is the problem is accepting that anything is possible for that eternally young supreme person ? Jijaji, Krishna was actually in a young spiritual body but actually the oldest. So He can definitely be accepted And as for as knowledge goes He was not too bad! I have a question for analysts - how come no body is questioning how a conversation by foolish older generation can be so complex that we cannot even recite it properly ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 I was reading up on late Prof.Basham's writings on Bhandarkar edition's work. This is what they did: They collected all the manuscripts available, in full or in part, from every corner of India, Nepal, Burma, Indonesia and Ceylon. Then they came up with a final edition after excluding every verse they thought had the slightest chance of having been interpolated. The Mahabharat they produced thus had 70,000 verses as compared to the maximum of about 100,000 verses. Basham himself admits that not all the remaining 30,000 verses were necessarily interpolated. This lends credence to the argument of J N Das that interpolations were fewer as compared to the original verses. Let me also point out to some of the verses deleted by Bhandarkar. The verses that talked of Huns were deleted as it was felt that the Huns didn't come to India before 450 CE. I would call it over assuming. While the earliest recorded arrival ofHuns is 450 CE, one cannot rule out their having come before that. After all, Sarasvati-Sindhu civilization's seals were found in Sumeria and ancient Tamil nadu's seals were found in Rome, though there are no other epigraphic records. Dear Jijaji, I have a lot of respect for many of your posts. But your recent personal attacks on J N Das were a climbdown. When I met him 4 years ago, I was very amazed that a young American could sacrifice everything and work for the poorest children in Tamilnadu, without knowing one word in Tamil. That is not very easy to do. You will certainly agree with me that J N Das allows every kind of criticism. I have differed with him many times, but he never took offense. You are knowledgeable and have a great sense of humour. You will also agree that it is not an easy job to run and moderate a web site, cook prasadam for poor children, teach them Bhagavad Gita, help with their studies all single-handedly as J N Das does. A person like him deserves a lot more credit than any of us has ever given. I am sure that your future posts will be based more on philosophy than on personal attacks. That would be befitting your calibre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jijaji Posted May 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 Originally posted by theist: jijaji, green with envy? You duffer. Difference equals envy huh..? Very dysfunctional way to think. A lot of enmeshment going on here! Very common in dogmatic elitist missionary groups! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jijaji Posted May 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 Originally posted by karthik_v: I was reading up on late Prof.Basham's writings on Bhandarkar edition's work. This is what they did: They collected all the manuscripts available, in full or in part, from every corner of India, Nepal, Burma, Indonesia and Ceylon. Then they came up with a final edition after excluding every verse they thought had the slightest chance of having been interpolated. The Mahabharat they produced thus had 70,000 verses as compared to the maximum of about 100,000 verses. Basham himself admits that not all the remaining 30,000 verses were necessarily interpolated. This lends credence to the argument of J N Das that interpolations were fewer as compared to the original verses. Let me also point out to some of the verses deleted by Bhandarkar. The verses that talked of Huns were deleted as it was felt that the Huns didn't come to India before 450 CE. I would call it over assuming. While the earliest recorded arrival ofHuns is 450 CE, one cannot rule out their having come before that. After all, Sarasvati-Sindhu civilization's seals were found in Sumeria and ancient Tamil nadu's seals were found in Rome, though there are no other epigraphic records. Dear Jijaji, I have a lot of respect for many of your posts. But your recent personal attacks on J N Das were a climbdown. When I met him 4 years ago, I was very amazed that a young American could sacrifice everything and work for the poorest children in Tamilnadu, without knowing one word in Tamil. That is not very easy to do. You will certainly agree with me that J N Das allows every kind of criticism. I have differed with him many times, but he never took offense. You are knowledgeable and have a great sense of humour. You will also agree that it is not an easy job to run and moderate a web site, cook prasadam for poor children, teach them Bhagavad Gita, help with their studies all single-handedly as J N Das does. A person like him deserves a lot more credit than any of us has ever given. I am sure that your future posts will be based more on philosophy than on personal attacks. That would be befitting your calibre. I appreciate your posting ji, I don't mean to offend jndas..it just seems lately he has gotten so damm controlling with his deleting and yes maybe responding with some demeaning words that has gotten me saying ..HEY WAIT A SECOND... His age of course means nothing...but many of us here have been around the block on these issues when he was like not even a teenager! I believe those who have do not deserve these classic moron responces like... "That's nonsense"... damm get some new vocabulary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leyh Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 jijaji: Are you not contradicting yourself when you say: His age of course means nothing...but many of us here have been around the block on these issues when he was like not even a teenager! JNdas Prabhu might have not have been a teenager when "many of us here were around the block on these issues",but age is just a material conception.JNdas could have been a pandit or a yogi in his past life and could be carrying on where he left off from his previous existence.Who knows? [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 05-11-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 Jijaji: BTW..Did I mention that Madhavacarya said the majority of Mahabharata was interpolated in his own time..? Madhva has never stated that the majority of the Mahabharata was interpolated. During his time there were over 50 editions of Mahabharata being followed in the devotional community. He identified impurities in these 50 editions (i.e. nondevotional teachings that were not from Vyasa), and therefore rejected all 50 editions. It had nothing to do with the majority of the text, but the subtle nondevotional interpolations hidden in the main body of the text. The changes were so hidden, that other devotional scholars were not able to identify these impurities in the text and insisted that the texts were pure. Karthik: But your recent personal attacks on J N Das were a climbdown. They were a lot more civil than his barage of four letter words from his prior personal attacks. Maybe he is able to tolerate me now, or at least control his profanity. Proof of the power of devotional service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atma Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 Jijaji you should apologize to Jahnava Nitai for your remarks. I admire him because at his age he is doing so much for his own spiritual life and the spiritual and material life of others. He tolerates a lot from people that post in his website and he is doing a great job in general. I know how difficult is organize anything in India and he is maintaining and organizing the food relief program in Orissa and having an ashram in Mysore. Not easy task even for a veteran like you. Nothing personal against you but you should know that age has nothing to do with knowledge and spiritual progress. He is a dedicated soul that is using his youth to spread the sankirtan movement in India and for that I appreciate him even more because it is more difficul to preach to Indians because they think that they know it all. Too many philosophies, gurus, gods, speculations,etc, plus the austerities of the weather, material conditions and 1 billion minds and bodies to deal with . Lets not forget people like you and me that take advantage of his website. Cheers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leyh Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 JNDas Prabhu: Out of curosity,may I know who is your Guru Maharaja? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 I am surrendered to numerous saints in the line of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. For specific spiritual guidance I follow their divine orders, for the words emanating from the lotus mouth of the guru lead one to attainment of all spiritual perfection. For more general spiritual guidance, I follow the instructions of all sadhus whom I associate with, regardless of their lineage. Sadhu-seva is the highest form of dharma. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-11-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 I'm not sure the idea of the turtle managing the website is the best idea. From your description, it sounds like your turtle would be pretty lax with standards. I suspect if he were running this website we'd still be receiving daily doses of drug-katha from senior Gaudiya Vaisnavas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 26 or 62, he is doing a great job. While there are plenty of folks willing to talk and complain, there are very few who how actually do something. manushhyaaNaa.n sahasreshhu kashchidyatati siddhaye | yatataamapi siddhaanaa.n kashchinmaa.n vetti tattvataH || Kudos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leyh Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 JNDas Prabhu: I hope I'm not being intrusive here,but I really am curious as to how did your journey to the spiritual path of Gaudiya Vaishnavism began. It seems to me that it is simply an amazing testimony to the potency of Mahaprabhu's movement that it can lead a 26 year old westerner to take up devotional service in India.I understand that you are very busy and I totally understand if you do not feel inclined to talk about yourself. [This message has been edited by leyh (edited 05-11-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jijaji Posted May 11, 2002 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 Originally posted by jndas: I am surrendered to numerous saints in the line of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. For specific spiritual guidance I follow their divine orders, for the words emanating from the lotus mouth of the guru lead one to attainment of all spiritual perfection. For more general spiritual guidance, I follow the instructions of all sadhus whom I associate with, regardless of their lineage. Sadhu-seva is the highest form of dharma. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-11-2002).] Huh Huh... Very enlightening weekend here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 Originally posted by jijaji: Huh Huh... Very enlightening weekend here.... Ahhh...Now it appears that Wiley Coyote thinks he has finally fiqured out how to get the Roadrunner.Beep beep!! [This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-11-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 On one day, in the midst of battle,Arjuna's horses became fatigued.Realizing this he and Krsna agreed they must be set free from the chariot and rested for awhile.The horses also were thirsty but there was no water close by.So Arjuna took one arrow and invoking Varuna shot it into the ground.Thus he brought forth a beautiful lake filled with sweet water.Water birds saw the lake and collect in the sky above. Krishna tended the horses with loving strokes, pacifying them, and saw that they drank their fill of the lakes sweet water.All this was down in an unhurried and relaxed manner. The Kauravas were entranced by activites of Krishna and Arjuna, and while watching Them lost all interest in fighting. That was right in the throes of battle so why not the same before the war had even started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2002 Report Share Posted May 11, 2002 Originally posted by karthik_v: Also, it will be better if we get back to the original subject of this thread I have presented only one argument so far. I will wait till tomorrow and others have nothing more to contribute to that argument, then I will present my second. I answered that. But then you did not respond to it swami. JNDas and my turtle stole the show thanks to one and only Jijaji. Here my post again for your comments : The starting point of the thread is whether Lord Krishna could have sung the Gita to Arjuna ? Or is it an interpolation. Interpreting vedic literature without considering the mystical aspect is pointless. It is reasonable to assume that when the Lord speaks the time stops. It is mysterious but it is not impossible. Even we may be able to do it in the future. It may be possible to teleport ourselves to an alternate universe and return to the same point in this space time continuum. Let us say we only accept the first two chapters of the Gita as real based on A. L. Bhashyam, it is sufficient to establish the complete philosophy of the Gita. The lord says in the 2 nd chapter that we are eternal and His special position is that He remembers past, present and the future where as jivas like Arjuna do not. This shows that the Lord has a pre-eminent position compared to us. If we were to accept only two words of the Gita, it is sufficient to establish that the Lord is Supreme. dharma kshetre - sastric definition of dharma is dharmam tu sAksAt bhagavad prAnitham. This establishes there is a Supreme Lord. If we even accept the first slokam of Bhagavad Gita as real, then we have to accept the truth of mysticism. This is because dhradharashtra is asking to Sanjaya to give a television view of what is happening in kurukshetra. Obviously there were no televisions then. The moment we accept the mysticism of the sastras and the master of all mystics, the jigsaw puzzle of the Vedas will fall in place. Where is the problem is accepting that anything is possible for that eternally young supreme person ? Jijaji, Krishna was actually in a young spiritual body but actually the oldest. So He can definitely be accepted And as for as knowledge goes He was not too bad! I have a question for analysts - how come no body is questioning how a conversation by foolish older generation can be so complex that we cannot even recite it properly ? [This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-11-2002).] [This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-11-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Originally posted by theist: The horses also were thirsty but there was no water close by.So Arjuna took one arrow and invoking Varuna shot it into the ground.Thus he brought forth a beautiful lake filled with sweet water.Water birds saw the lake and collect in the sky above. An unrelated question, but I would appreciate if anyone can give an explanation. In Rk veda, Indra is the master of rains. From this I presume that he controls Varuna as well. Then why is that all the prayers are made to Varuna if rains are needed and not to Indra? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Also, it will be better if we get back to the original subject of this thread I have presented only one argument so far. I will wait till tomorrow and others have nothing more to contribute to that argument, then I will present my second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Have we not gone completely out of the topic that Karthik ji had in mind when he started this thread? Can we go back to the original topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 I have presented only one argument so far. I will wait till tomorrow and others have nothing more to contribute to that argument, then I will present my second. Nooooooooooooo. You can't present another argument now. You wrote that Dhristdyumna had not blew his conch shell. But, Gita says that he did. So, that argument is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Once we tested how long it would take to recite the entire Gita, so we took experienced people (who knew sanskrit), had them site together and recite the Gita in a natural pace. I forget the exact amount of time it took, but I seem to recal one and a half hours. Now in the case of Krishna and Arjuna, it is their day to day language, thus we can imagine their speaking sanskrit, and us reciting it are not quite the same. It is likely they could have easily recited the entire Gita in 45 minutes (one muhurta), and that is what is stated in some texts. If we see the system of battle, where the two sides arrange their armies in vyuhas, such as sarpa-vyuha (snake formation) and garuda-vyuha (eagle formation), the disciplines they followed become clear. It is described that from the sky, one could see the forms of an eagle and snake fighting. Those soldiers making up the claws would move forward, those soldiers making the mouth of the snake would move to "bite". From the sky it actually looked like an eagle and snake fighting. How much discipline must be involved to be able to accomplish such a feat. In view of the over all system of battle, 45 minutes prior to commencing the fighting is really insignificant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 I took 3 hours and a half to recite the whole of Gita once. 45 minutes is not a small duration when there are people ready to attack you. Why did the war not start even though the conch shells had been blown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Are you saying that others were busy creating the vyuhas when Krsna and Arjuna were talking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 45 minutes is not a small duration when there are people ready to attack you. Why did the war not start even though the conch shells had been blown? The codes of conduct they followed allow for many explanations as to why they did not fight instantaneously at the sound of the conchshells. The fact that they blew their conchshells itself tells us of their disciplines. There are many rituals and procedures they will go through before actually fighting. And who will be the first to fight, and when can one fight (how must the opponent be prepared), how the challenges are made, how the elders are first respected before fighting, etc. For the kshatriya the battlefield is the sacrificial fire, and they treat it as a worship, for it is their path to the heavens. In addition to this we should remember there are (according to the texts) hundreds of thousands, or perhaps millions of soldiers assembling themselves onto the battle field, in complex formations such as the Garuda-vyuha, and sarpa-vyuha. Taking into account all these circumstances, it is not unreasonable that 45 minutes can pass before actual fighting begins. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-13-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2002 Report Share Posted May 12, 2002 Originally posted by Avinash: Have we not gone completely out of the topic that Karthik ji had in mind when he started this thread? Can we go back to the original topic? Avinash, I humbly submit that I am not out of topic.I was probably not understood, which may be due to lack of clear communication from my side. My point has been : It was mystically possible for Krishna to "stop" the time in Kurkshetra while the Gita was spoken which no one has refuted. To establish mysticism, I am establishing that Lord Krishna is the Supreme Lord and hence He is a great mystic. There is no need for mundane explanation including what JNDas gave because the fact that time "stopped" can be well established. I will do it in the next post in a scientific manner. But I am not going to play the indological game of explaining things based on some indologians' understanding of what was possible during the Vedic times. [This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-12-2002).] [This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-12-2002).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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