Liberty the most valuable gift of God. Bhaktivinoda

[dasanudasa]

I would like the learned members of this forum to give a commentary to the following quotation

 

"Liberty then is the principle, which we must consider as the most

valuable gift of God. We must not allow ourselves to be led by those who lived

and thought before us. We must think for ourselves and try to get further truths

which are still undiscovered. In the 23rd text 21st Chapter 11th skandha of the

Bhagavata we have been advised to take the spirit of the sastras and not the words"

 

Kedarnath Dutta Bhaktivinode. The Bhagavata,Its Philosophy, Its Ethics, and Its Theology

 

(taken from http://www.sanskrit.org articles)

 

[Rati]

Purport:

 

The classical (as well as Vedic period) Sanskrit texts, such as the Puranas and the Itihasa (Mahabharata and Ramayana) are meant to be understood as having meaning on multiple levels. In addition to the literal meaning, there are other levels, such as allegorical, symbolic, hidden, etc. We have to look at these texts in light of Sri Bhaktivinode Thakur's statement to read between the lines in places. Certain passages will have an obvious literal message in plain language, whereas others will require some analysis and reflection to ponder their meaning on these other levels. We have various commentaries written to guide us in such a process.

 

Just reading the texts as curiosities without actually living their teachings through practice (sAdhana) will result in missing out on the spirit of them. If we combine the reading of them (and preferably hearing from qualified readers that can also explain them) with practice and take the prescribed step of dIkSA, then we can achieve higher levels of understanding than those available by a mere academic approach to the subject.

 

 

 

[theist]

SB 11.21.23

 

Those statements of scripture promising fruitive rewards do not prescribe the ultimate good for men but are merely enticements for executing benefical religious duties, like promises of candy to induce a child to take benefical medicine.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Just to make things clear, there is another user on these forums with the user name "dasanudas", which is different from this user whose name is "dasanudasa".

 

[Rati]

Genuine scientific advancement has been impeded throughout history by a religious elite clinging to old worn-out dogma, such as a flat earth theory. Bhaktivinode's statement about liberty goes right to the heart of the problem. It can also be applied to theological inquiry and development. After all, without the contribution of Rupa Goswami to an already existent theology, where would we be today?

If we are to take his statement to heart, then we must see the pitfalls of relying too heavily on the instructions of others and ignoring our own intellect in the process. If a hypothetical guru were to tell us that we need to round up all of the first born male infants and slaughter them because Kamsa has been prophesized to reincarnate, that would go against our conscience and, if we are applying our intellect as the Thakur has advised, we would reject those instructions (or at least seriously question the validity of the reason for them).

 

There are religious authorities we rely on: sAdhu and zAstra. There are also other sources of pramANa (evidence), such as pratyakSa or direct perception. By a synthesis of all of these, we can view the world with a deeper understanding. Otherwise, the temporal will seem as permanent and the search for happiness will be confined to this world and the objects of the senses. We as rational beings have been endowed not only with liberty, but the power of reason. To use our free will and our powers of logic to accomplish great things is a noble pursuit.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 05-12-2002).]

[theist]

I keep checking this thread.Such a great topic for discussion.

 

Bhaktivinode Thakur strikes me as a real spiritual adventurer.Not content with just taking in the thoughts of others on God's nature and his own, he wanted to personally explore that territory.

 

He is inviting us to join him on that expedition. For myself I'm intrigued with the possibilities but hold back for some reason.Fear of the unknown perhaps.Feeling too comfortable with my present world view is probably also a factor.

 

Hopefully dasanudasa and others will give comment and build on Rati's post above.

 

dasanudasa it is.I assumed it was the same person so it good to have that clarified.

 

[This message has been edited by theist (edited 05-12-2002).]

[dasanudasa]

First I would like to apologize for the confusion between the names dasanudas y dasanudasa.

I didn’t notice before I register

Thanks to Rati and theist for their reply.

 

“In the common-place books of the Hindu religion in which the rajo and tamo-guna have been described as the ways of religion, we have descriptions of a local heaven and a local hell; the Heaven as beautiful as anything on earth and the Hell as ghastly as any picture of evil. Besides this Heaven we have many more places, where good souls are sent up in the way of promotion! There are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton has described in his “Paradise Lost”. These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy. The religion of the Bhagavata is free from such a poetry. Indeed, in some of the chapters we meet with descriptions of these hells and heavens, and accounts of curious tales, but we have been warned somewhere in the book, not to accept them as real facts, but as inventions to overawe the wicked and to improve the simple and the ignorant. The Bhagavata certainly tells us a state of reward and punishment in future according to deeds in our present situation. All poetic inventions, besides this spiritual fact, have been described as statements borrowed from other works in the way of preservation of old traditions in the book which superseded them and put an end to the necessity of their storage. If the whole stock of Hindu theological works which preceded the Bhagavata were burnt like the Alexandrian library and the sacred Bhagavata preserved as it is, not a part of the philosophy of the Hindus except that of the atheistic sects, would be lost. The Bhagavata therefore, may be styled both as a religious work and a compendium of all Hindu history and philosophy.”

Op. cit.

 

¿Local heavens?

¿Do you believe in the existence of devas like Indra, etc…?¿Why?

 

I regard scriptures or statements made by other persons as a source of inspiration and cannot accept the principle of authority.

 

dasanudasa

 

 

[Audarya lila]

Originally posted by dasanudasa:

I regard scriptures or statements made by other persons as a source of inspiration and cannot accept the principle of authority.

 

dasanudasa

 

 

 

I find that the above statement is not consistent with your name. If you are a servant, that means you accept some authority.

 

In general, it can certainly be said that spiritual knowledge and awareness can only be had through what is called a descending process. Our minds and our limited sensual capabilities are inadequate for the exploration of a substance which is much subtler. That is why all spiritualists regardless of secular affiliation rely on scripture not only as a source of inspiration but also as the ultimate authority.

 

Having said that, I would like to suggest that the words of Bhaktivinoda that were posted at the beginning of this thread need to be thought of in terms of their context and content. The context within which these words were spoken should be given some consideration. The Thakur was given a 'western' education and he has said that he was sceptical and embarassed about the contents of the Bhagavatam. Most of his intellectual contemporaries were also prone to discount the Bhagavata. Because there was an intellectual bias against the Bhagavata and it's philosophy at the time the Thakur had to carefully word his lecture so that he could attract the intellectuals of his time to the possiblity that there was something to be gained by an unbiased study even if previous thinkers may have concluded otherwise.

 

On the content side of things one could certainly conclude that since God is unlimited and that all that can be said about him is certainly not written to date. As I said above, spiritual understanding is revealed knowledge so it only stands to reason that if we ever get beyond the words and formalities presented to us and actually begin to have a divine life things will be revealed to us and we will add to the previously recorded wisdom.

 

These are just some thoughts to add to the mix.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

[bhaktajoy]

It is always better to accept 100% authority and still keep an open mind,of course!This saves one from great dangers.

 

I will quote from near death experiences.

 

Christian:

 

"As I was getting ready to ask him another question, I looked up and saw my nephew floating above the others he was not on the right or left he was just floating around. I asked him, "Richard what are you doing up there?" He said, "IT WAS NOT MY TIME, I HAVE TO STAY HERE UNTIL IT IS MY TIME." My nephew Richard committed suicide in September,1989. I felt the hurt in my heart to know he was not able to be at peace.

 

At that time I felt that I wanted to be in the warmth and comfort of these family members and I decided I was going to cross over when my grandfather put hand up and said NO you can't come yet. I asked, why not? He did not say a word, only looked up and I looked up to see what he was seeing. I can't even describe what it was, but I guess in order to put it into words I would have to say in the Sky above all this multitude of people/spirits was THE FATHER THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST. I have been a Catholic all my life and didn't really understand what the three in one meant but I do now.

 

The most peaceful feeling came over me and I realized it was our Dear Lord. I told him I wanted to stay he said I could not I asked why not. His reply was You need to go back and finish what I need you to do. I started crying because I did not want to leave this beautiful peaceful place that I had found. He said don't cry you will see me again one more time before you see me for the final time."

 

Hindu:

 

"Vasudev Pandey was interviewed in 1975 and again in 1976. He was born in 1921 and had nearly died in his home, of what he described as "paratyphoid disease," when he was about 10 years old. Vasudev had been considered dead and his body had actually been taken to the cremation ground. However, some indications of life aroused attention, and Vasudev was removed to the hospital where doctors tried to revive him, using "injections," with eventual success. He remained unconscious for 3 days and then became able to describe the following experience (as narrated to us in 1975):

 

"Two persons caught me and took me with them. I felt tired after walking some distance; they started to drag me. My feet became useless. There there was a man sitting up. He looked dreadful and was all black. He was not wearing any clothes. He said in a rage [to the attendants who had brought Vasudev] ' I had asked you to bring Vasudev the gardener. Our garden is drying up. You have brought Vasudev the student.' When I regained consciousness, Vasudev the gardener was standing in front of me [apparently in the crowd of family and servants who had gathered around the bed of the ostensibly dead Vasudev]. He was hale and hearty. People started teasing him saying, ' Now it is your turn.' He seemed to sleep well in the night, but the next morning he was dead."

 

In reply to questions about details, Vasudev said that the "black man" had a club and used foul language. Vasudev identified him with Yamraj, the Hindu god of the dead. He said that he was "brought back" by the same two men who had taken him to Yamraj in the first place. Vasudev's mother (who had died before the time of the interview) had been a pious woman who read scriptures that included descriptions of Yamraj. Vasudev, even as a boy before his NDE, was quite familiar with Yamraj."

 

The only thing that has any meaning in the after life is what you think.

 

just my 2 cents worth

God bless.

 

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 05-15-2002).]

[bhaktajoy]

www.near-death.com/experiences/research9.html

 

Afterlife:

 

If you want to know what life after death is like, pay close attention to your dreams. The realm of your dreams is the realm of the NDE; that is, it is the realm of the mind. In the realm of the mind, all things are possible. Life after death means freeing yourself from all physical limitations and fully inhabiting the realm of the mind. In the realms of the afterlife, it is what one thinks that is most important. This is because thoughts are deeds in the afterlife. Here, in the physical world, we are what we do. But in the world of the NDE, we are what we think.

 

The following are insights from many NDEs dealing with the afterlife.

 

Once our transition after death is complete, we can choose to go to other afterlife levels when we are ready.

 

When we die, we are given the choice to remain on this earth until our bodies are buried or to move on to the level to which our spirits had grown while on earth.

 

After death, if our ties to earth are not let go, we could become a "restless spirit" and we would be permitted to return to earth.

 

When we die, we will find many levels of development. We will always go to that level where we are most comfortable.

 

In the afterlife, our thoughts are no longer private, but become known to all around us. People of the same kind of thoughts are drawn to each other because it is too threatening to be with others with whom we disagree when they know it.

 

Communication in the spirit world is by thought - a direct mind-to-mind transfer of thought.

 

In the spirit realm, our thoughts and feelings cannot be hidden from others. This reality can be heaven for some but hell for others, depending on their thoughts and feelings.

 

In the afterlife, people with very negative thoughts go to a plane of lower vibration where their kind of thoughts can live. If they entered the higher realms, the "Master-Vibration" of God would annihilate these thoughts. This "Master-Vibration" is often referred to as "the Holy Spirit". After death, people gravitate into homogenous groups according to the rate of their soul's vibrations. If the percentage of discord in a person is small, it can be eliminated by the Master-Vibration of God; then the remaining good can live there. However, if there is more discord within a soul's vibrations than good, this cannot be done and the person must gravitate to a lower afterlife level and live with people of their kind. In the afterlife, each person lives in the kind of a heaven or hell which they prepared for themselves while on earth. Nobody sends us anywhere. We are sorted by the high or low vibrations of our soul. Everyone goes where they fit in.

 

There are no negative thoughts in the higher spirit realms, only positive affirmations.

 

In the afterlife, no one is made to feel uncomfortable by being forced to do or accept things for which they are not prepared.

 

At death, the dimension of the afterlife we travel to is determined by the level of spiritual development we have attained while on earth.

 

When we die, our ability to accept truth and to live by it, governs our progress in the spirit. It determines the degree of light we possess. Nobody forces light and truth upon us, and nobody takes it away unless we let them. People are self-governed and self-judged in the spirit realm. People have total free will.

 

In the afterlife, everyone is free to experience the various afterlife dimensions and nothing is restricted. The only governor is the state of the conscious mind. Deeply held beliefs come into visible expression there. Not everyone has the same experience because everyone creates his or her own experience. Subtle energies slowly open restrictive, closed minds in order to accept greater understanding.

 

Every soul shines the light of love in various degrees. The light of souls who love very little are dim.

 

On earth we have an inner nature (our subconscious) and an outer nature (our personality). At death, our outer nature dies and our inner nature becomes our new outer nature in the afterlife. Our higher self (our superconscious) remains one with God. However, this level of consciousness must be "reawakened" while on earth.

 

In the afterlife, no one is ever lost or left behind. Everyone is of equal importance and each can never cease to exist. Our earth experience determines our afterlife destiny, but no one is locked there, and each can progress to higher and higher levels of being.

 

Things change little in the afterlife. If a person has the fixed belief that they will sleep until the resurrection of the body, they may sleep for a very long time. If a person keeps an open mind, they will be free to adapt to the new surroundings and fit in where they belong with no unusual difficulty. This is why having fixed beliefs limit an open mind.

 

Time passes over there the same as here, that is, one event follows another. But looking at it another way, time doesn't pass at all because there is not enough change to make the passage of time evident.

 

From another viewpoint, time in the afterlife stands still because it is always now. The past and future are of equal length because there never was a beginning and never can be an end. In the earthly rat race, events follow each other so rapidly that it gives us the illusion that time flies. On the other hand, in prison with absolutely no change, the days would stretch into seeming eternities.

 

How does a person get ahead of others in the afterlife? They don't. There is no place in heaven for discontent or personal ambition. Some people may not be able to change at all after they arrive in the afterlife. On earth, we can change ourselves quite easily and should use this life to make ourselves into the kind of people we want to be in the afterlife.

 

In the afterlife, we do not stop learning or progressing in knowledge.

 

Death is merely the doorway to the next level of soul growth and evolution.

 

In the afterlife, death on earth is considered a graduation.

 

Only those who believe they can leave their bodies and progress further after death actually do.

 

"Libraries" exist in the afterlife. In these libraries, when one reflects on a topic, all the knowledge on that topic enters the mind.

 

In the afterlife, one can create things with the powers of the mind.

 

In the afterlife, as we adjust and understand how to work with our mind, we will automatically know what is needed as the desire arises.

 

In the afterlife, auras are what we use to evaluate a person's spiritual condition. The lighter and more brilliant the color, the more advanced the person is. The aura is also useful to determine how much a person needs to work on spiritual development.

 

In the afterlife, the eyes of the spirit see in more dimensions than the eyes of the body.

 

In the afterlife, we have 360-degree vision. The experience is like having eyes all around your head.

 

In the afterlife, we see things from every angle like a cubist painting by Picasso.

 

In the afterlife, our soul is our consciousness and our spirit is our transparent, glowing body.

 

In the afterlife, we see others as they see themselves. Others can appear the way they do because it is the way they perceive we need them to appear.

 

Much communication in the afterlife is silent, although sound is sometimes used in communication because it is pleasant.

 

To travel from one point to another in the afterlife, all one has to do is think about it.

 

In the afterlife, we can remember and feel different times and events in our lives as if they were happening right now.

 

In the afterlife, we can observe what is happening on earth whenever we choose to do so.

 

The tremendous love experienced in the afterlife is like having the love of every mother in the universe pour into us for all eternity.

 

Deceased loved ones appear in the afterlife as they looked like at their best during their lives.

 

In the afterlife, people wear what they want to wear. They wear what they are most comfortable in.

 

A spiritual "receiving station" exists to receive people after death who arrive in a hypnotic sleep due to a faulty belief they have that they must sleep until Jesus comes. Here, others try to arouse them from their sleep.

 

There is an invisible dimension in the clouds above the earth where animals and human spirits go to become replenished for further evolution on earth.

 

Since there is no need for reproduction in the afterlife, sex plays a different role. Without physical bodies to act as buffers, the sexes can get immeasurably closer to each other, and become more intimate. Without inhibitions to frustrate them, they can receive and express love more freely and completely.

 

 

[Rati]

Bhaktivinoda's statement about the nether regions does bring up an interesting point about the origins of that concept. For example, historians of religion have traced the origin of the Judeo-Christian concept to Zoroastrianism. Prior to that the Hebrew people had no such thing as a Devil.

 

Anyone have any information on the actual origin of hell in India? Perhaps it was also borrowed from Zoroastrianism.

[dasanudasa]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

I find that the above statement is not consistent with your name. If you are a servant, that means you accept some authority.

 

 

My master doesn't belive in authority but in love. Not power, or intelect, but love. Sometimes we need authority to overcome fear. I hope realization of the sweet absolute will end the need for fear or authorization. Be free, freedom is the soul´s own reality, whithout it we are stones. Love needs absolute freedom.

 

your servant,

who may not accept your authority

 

dasanudasa

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Anyone have any information on the actual origin of hell in India? Perhaps it was also borrowed from Zoroastrianism.

Or perhaps it is a fundamental concept found in every single Purana.