Lord Caitanya and Christianity

[Yashoda_dd]

Does anyone knows (from any scriptures or from any vaisnava), if Lord Caitanya met any westerners at his time?

 

Did he discuss Christianity with anyone like he did about Kuran?

 

your servant, Yashoda devi dasi

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

There is a very ancient painting in Puri of Chaitanya meeting with western explorers (the type of traders who came to India to get spices).

[Rati]

Mahaprabhu did appear around the time Columbus discovered the New World. Coincidence?

[jijaji]

Christopher Columbus: Extracts from Journal

 

This document is the from the journal of Columbus in his voyage of 1492. The meaning of this voyage is highly contested.

 

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/columbus1.html

 

Also here is a list of saints who lived in India in and around the time (1492) Columbus headed our for India...

 

1380- 1460 Kabir, a famous mystic poet,

1469- 1538 Guru Nanak, a famous Saint, found Sikhism.

1483-1563 Surdas, a renowned poet, contribtued to the revival of devotionalism

1486 - 1533 Chaitanya, the most revered Vaishnava saint and believed to be an incarnation

Vallabhacarya was born in 1479 not sure when he passed away

1498 - 1546 Mira Bai, a famous female poet saint, strengthened the bhakti tradition

1503 - 1623 Tulsi Das, one of the popular mystic poets, composed the Hindi version of Ramayana

 

I say he went to see Mira Bai and was fortold her coming in a dream..he just got there a little early.

 

Or maybe he came to See Guru Nanak??

 

He was alive then....

 

Or maybe it was the entire vibe of India and that vibe was made up of many many traditions and sampradayas..would that be a bad thing Rati..?

 

But in reality it seems Columbus thought he was on a mission to convert heathens to the 'One & Only Faith' of as he says "Our Lord Jesus Christ".

 

So this...

"Oh Columbus was drawn to India at that time because Chaitanya appeared" are subtle ways of stroking your own ego because that is the sect you identify with...get real!

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-14-2002).]

[jijaji]

IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST

 

Whereas, Most Christian, High, Excellent, and Powerful Princes, King and Queen of Spain and of the Islands of the Sea, our Sovereigns, this present year 1492, after your Highnesses had terminated the war with the Moors reigning in Europe, the same having been brought to an end in the great city of Granada, where on the second day of January, this present year, I saw the royal banners of your Highnesses planted by force of arms upon the towers of the Alhambra, which is the fortress of that city, and saw the Moorish king come out at the gate of the city and kiss the hands of your Highnesses, and of the Prince my Sovereign; and in the present month, in consequence of the information which I had given your Highnesses respecting the countries of India and of a Prince, called Great Can, which in our language signifies King of Kings, how, at many times he, and his predecessors had sent to Rome soliciting instructors who might teach him our holy faith, and the holy Father had never granted his request, whereby great numbers of people were lost, believing in idolatry and doctrines of perdition.

 

Your Highnesses, as Catholic Christians, and princes who love and promote the holy Christian faith, and are enemies of the doctrine of Mahomet, and of all idolatry and heresy, determined to send me, Christopher Columbus, to the above-mentioned countries of India, to see the said princes, people, and territories, and to learn their disposition and the proper method of converting them to our holy faith; and furthermore directed that I should not proceed by land to the East, as is customary, but by a Westerly route, in which direction we have hitherto no certain evidence that any one has gone.

 

So after having expelled the Jews from your dominions, your Highnesses, in the same month of January, ordered me to proceed with a sufficient armament to the said regions of India..

 

From the 1st part of the journal of Columbus

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-14-2002).]

[abhi_the_great]

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/vishwasvarghese/wtpsati.html

 

Saint Francis Xavier, on hinduism. This letter was sent to Rome from Goa (a city in India, which is almost converted to christianity today)

 

"We have in these parts a class of men among the pagans who are called

Brahmins. They keep up the worship of the gods, the superstitious rites of

religion, frequenting the temples and taking care of the idols. They are as

perverse and wicked a set as can anywhere be found, and I always apply to

them the words of holy David, "from an unholy race and a wicked and crafty

man deliver me, O Lord." They are liars and cheats to the very backbone. These

are the ignorant people whose blind superstitions have made the others their

slaves, their imposture and tricks, and this has induced many to leave the

worship of the false gods, and eagerly become Christians. If it were not for the

opposition of the Brahmins, we should have them all embracing the religion of

Jesus Christ.

 

As there is so great a variety of color among men, and the Indians being black

themselves, consider their own color the best, they believe that their gods are

black. On this account the great majority of their idols are as black as black can

be, and moreover are generally so rubbed over with oil as to smell detestably,

and seem to be as dirty as they are ugly and horrible to look at."

 

 

Another letter

 

"May the grace and charity of our Lord Christ always be with

us! Amen.

 

My own and only Father in the Heart of Christ, I think that the many letters from

this place which have lately been sent to Rome will inform you how

prosperously the affairs of religion go on in these parts, through your prayers

and the good bounty of God. But there seem to be certain things which I ought

myself to speak about to you; so I will just touch on a few points relating to

these parts of the world which are so distant from Rome. In the first place, the

whole race of the Indians, as far as I have been able to see, is very barbarous;

and it does not like to listen to anything that is not agreeable to its own

manners and customs, which, as I say, are barbarous. It troubles itself very little

to learn anything about divine things and things which concern salvation. Most

of the Indians are of vicious disposition, and are adverse to virtue. Their

instability, levity, and inconstancy of mind are incredible; they have hardly any

honesty, so inveterate are their habits of sin and cheating. We have hard work

here, both in keeping the Christians up to the mark and in converting the

heathen. And, as we are your children, it is fair that on this account you should

take great care of us and help us continually by your prayers to God.

 

You know very well what a hard business it is to teach people who neither have

any knowledge of God nor follow reason, but think it a strange and intolerable

thing to be told to give up their habits of sin, which have now gained all the

force of nature by long possession. The experience which I have of these

countries makes me think that I can affirm with truth, that there is no prospect

of perpetuating our Society out here by means of the natives themselves, and

that the Christian religion will hardly survive us who are now in the country; so

that it is quite necessary that continual supplies of ours should be sent out from

Europe."

 

[abhi_the_great]

Even today the body of the "Saint" in Goa is said to be in a "marvelous" state of

preservation as proof of his miraculous character.

 

With Saints like Francis Xavier epitomizing the nature of Christian kindness in

India, is it any wonder that the proselytizing nature of the Church is increasingly

condemned and denounced by civilized human beings all over the world? The

souls of the thousands of Indians that suffered genocide at the hands of the

religious fanaticism which was institutionalized by the Catholic Church, would

hardly find succor in any apology by the Pope.

 

But at the very least it would have been a some small form of retribution for the

sins committed by the forces he represents.

[Gauracandra]

I'm sure Caitanya would have known about Jesus Christ for the simple reason that he knew of the Koran. Jesus is mentioned throughout the Koran, and Mary is mentioned more often in the Koran than in the Bible itself. So if Caitanya was able to speak on the philosophy of the Koran with the Kazi then he certainly would have been aware of Jesus Christ. I hadn't thought of it before, but your question just made me realize this.

[karthik_v]

That is right Shvu. Theist, the first mention of Jesus appears atleast 80 years after his supposed crucification. None of the Hebrew chroniclers, who were contemporaries of his supposed period, even make a mention of Jesus, though they write in detail about even trivial things. It is unthinkable that Jews would ignore someone they hated so much. No mention in Pilate's or Roman epigraphs either. The first numismatic portrayal of Jesus happens 150 years after his supposed crucification. To me it looks like that Jesus was created 80 years after his crucification and became a cult figure another 70 years down the line.

 

Even if you take NT, it is so self-contradictory, that it actually negates the existence of Jesus. The narratives of the 4 disciples, who made the cut contradict each other, even on such crucial events as his crucification. Likewise, a very, very bad Rabbi friend of mine, very convincingly argued, by presenting the narratives of Jesus' foremost disciples, that they had never been to Palestine and hence NT is humbug.

 

I have no problem in accepting Jesus on faith, more so because an acarya like SP accepted him. But, I will always use this to taunt missionaries. If the west can reject Mahabharat or vedas as historical, despite the convincing astronomical evidences, I will reject Jesus who has no basis whatsoever. Fair enough?

 

Sirona, the church has had an occasional good man, but he was like an oasis in the desert. Mostly, the Christian saints were rogues of the lowest order. Just take this century for example. Pius XII, was the ultimate rogue but is on his way to sainthood. Mother (my left foot) Teresa, was another rogue of the lowest order, but hyped up by the media and again on her way to sainthood.

[jijaji]

Where's that Rati dude..?

 

 

[This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-15-2002).]

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

 

The fact is the Personality of Kali calculated Columbus' mission of violent conversion -- to intercpet India during the childhood pastimes of Lord Chaitanya -- who was only 7 [not 8] years old in 1492.

 

It is pretty easy to understand who blew them far away off course and WHY...

 

YS,

 

Bhakta don

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Bhakta Don Muntean (edited 05-15-2002).]

[karthik_v]

Saint, my left foot, Xavier! Damn the church. I don't know if many of you have heard anything about the Inquisition of Goa. Goa is a small state in western India. During the Portugese regime, the Vatican ordered that the heathen and foul Hindus be converted to Christianity by force. So, those Hindus who refused were put in a boat and then the boat was surrounded by Portugese ships and then set afire. The Christian missionaries and Portugese army raped the Hindu women in the churches.

 

Nobody knows if Jesus really lived. Everything in Bible is drawn from Old Testament and Buddhism. But, the history of church itself has been the most sordid and racist. It has been worse than Islam in that sense.

[theist]

karthik,

 

you wrote:"Nobody knows if Jesus really lived. "

 

I know that he lived and still lives.

[Yashoda_dd]

Very, very interesting subject. I wish we could find more about it in Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

About painting of Caitanya Mahaprabhu in Puri: jdas, maybe you know in which place we can see that painting? I have been in Puri for one afternoon, but 7 years ago. Hopely, I will go there one day and search for it.

 

Jijaji: so many saintly personalities at that time!!! Such a perfect time to be born in India...

 

abhi_the_great: it reminds me of the same thing that happened in Americas. When Spaniards came, searching for the gold, they took some priests with them. In order to make Indians look animal-like (animal can not have any property of land), they used the same words. Today, we have almost no Indians in North America, and in South America Aymara Indians are simply living in high Andes, avoiding white people.

 

Govamis never mentioned Jesus or Christianity? I remember Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura did, but I can not find it anywhere. In which articles was that?

 

Your servant, Yashoda devi dasi

[shvu]

 

karthik,

you wrote:"Nobody knows if Jesus really lived. "

 

I know that he lived and still lives.

Theist,

 

What Karthik means is there is no proof for a historical Jesus. The only source is the NT and the NT is not a historical work.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Sirona]

That was very informative on St.(?) Francis Xaver. His holy day is December 3rd. I know that because it's my birthday so this man seems to be my personal saint. After reading that I really hope that he is not. All I knew before was a quotation of him that ran somewhat like that: "Everybody rushes to the East to obtain gold but let's go there to obtain souls instead." Very romantic indeed but nothing of this is true. I wonder why the Church always falsifies the life of such persons - maybe that's necessary to make possible their canonization. If I remember correctly he was a Jesuite, and it were the Jesuites that pressed all the gold of Japan (wasn't it like that in the Shogun movie with Richard Chamberlain ?) ... Sad, sad, sad ...

[dasanudasa]

"The great reformers will always assert that they have come out not to destroy the old law, but to fulfill it. Valmiki, Vyasa, Plato, Jesus, Mohammed, Confucius and Caitanya Mahaprabhu assert the fact either expressly or by their conduct."

 

"But when we advanced in age and our religious sentiment received development, we turned out in a manner Unitarian in our belief and prayed as Jesus prayed in the Garden."

 

"The popular religion is fear of God and not the pure spiritual love which Plato, Vyasa, Jesus, and Caitanya taught to their respective peoples!"

 

The Bhagavata,Its Philosophy, Its Ethics, and Its Theology By Kedarnath Dutta Bhaktivinode

http://sanskrit.org/

(articles)

 

You will need Adobe Acrobat 4.xx

http://download.adobe.com/pub/adobe/acrobatreader/win/4.x/arce405eng.exe

 

 

[Tarun]

Now that we haven't been distracted, what about that Trinity?

"brahmeti paramAtmeti bhagavAn iti zabdyate"

Precisely congruent.

Equiangular equilateral triangles could not more closely match.

And this Son of Man or Son of God or Only Begotten Son?

Which Form was Jesus praying to? KRSNa, JagannAth or MahAprabhu?

If J was trikala-jnA, he'd have known of:

1) ZrI GaurAnga's superior mercy.

2) And what to speak of ZrI NityAnanda Prabhu!

DayAl Nitai Caitanya bol nacre amar man...

[Rati]

Looks like some here totally missed the point of my above musing. The gist of it was a global awakening of humanity that involved the Renaissance in Europe, the settling of the New World by those seeking religious freedom and the bhakti movements in India. One could say there were significant turning points in history (both scientific and religious) that occured around the same time. The same could be (and indeed has been) said of the latter part of the nineteenth century.

 

One of the recent Indian gurus (I forget which, but it might have been Muktananda or Aurobindo) has suggested that the yuga cycles described in Sanskrit scriptures have been misinterpreted - that the cycle really is satya, treta, dvapara, kali, dvapara, treta, satya - and that we have recently re-entered the Dvapara yuga, which he put forth to explain scientific and technological advancement. Food for thought.

 

I think we're overdue for a quip from the peanut gallery:

 

[This message has been edited by Rati (edited 05-18-2002).]