sex in the spiritual world?

[Pritesh01]

In Srimad Bhagavatam 5.17.12, Srila Prabhupada explains that people have sex in the spiritual world and there is no possibility of conception there. How is sex possible between different persons in the spiritual world and how can they be Krishna conscious at the same time?

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by Pritesh01:

In Srimad Bhagavatam 5.17.12, Srila Prabhupada explains that people have sex in the spiritual world and there is no possibility of conception there. How is sex possible between different persons in the spiritual world and how can they be Krishna conscious at the same time?

Because there is no injunction against sexual enjoyment in any scripture. Even in this material world, you can enjoy sex to your heart's content and still be Krishna conscious.

 

Puranas and Itihasas were written for the common audience who required no qualifications to listen to them. Most of them contain very vivid description of sex that you will get goose pimples upon hearing them. If the original authors had thought that sex would impede spiritual progress, they wouldn't have had such narratives in the first place. In fact, I would argue that those narratives also served an educational purpose and helped the public perceive sex as not something ugly but sacred. By presenting a vivid description of love-making between Krishna and Radha, deploying the rules of Kamashastra, the authors were educating the common public.

 

There is a major difference between semitic religions, Taoism and Hinduism. Those religions, except, Taoism, considered sex one sided and something to be oppressed. Taoism treated that mechanically, devoid of sensuality. Hindu smritis are the only onles that treat sex very sensually, without shame or guilt and according equality to both the male and the female. Advocacy of oppression of sex within marriage is something untenable.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Please see this article:

 

"Sex in the spiritual world."

http://www.indiadivine.com/tattva11.htm

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Because there is no injunction against sexual enjoyment in any scripture. Even in this material world, you can enjoy sex to your heart's content and still be Krishna conscious.

But that isn't Krishna's opinion. He states one who is attached to enjoyment cannot know Him:

 

bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam

tayapahrta-cetasam

vyavasayatmika buddhih

samadhau na vidhiyate

[bg. 2.44]

 

"In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination for devotional service to the Lord does not take place."

 

Srila Prabhupada's lecture on this verse:

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Here is very important thing. The exact Sanskrit word is,

 

bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam

tayapahrta-cetasam

vyavasayatmika buddhih

samadhau na vidhiyate

 

In the beginning it has been said that you make your determination that "In this life I shall execute Krsna consciousness in such a way that after leaving this body I enter into the spiritual world and go directly to Goloka Vrndavana, Krsnaloka." This is called vyavasayatmika buddhih. Niscayatmika means determination. But He says that persons who are attached, bhoga, material enjoyment, aisvarya, material opulence: bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam [bg. 2.44]. Those who are too much attached to material enjoyment and material sense gratification, material opulence, tayapahrta-cetasam, and those who have become bewildered or mad after it, tayapahrta-cetasam, vyavasayatmika buddhih, they cannot have such determination. They will fail to have such determination. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, there is voluntary renunciation.

 

So this renunciation is recommended. If we simply remain in material opulence and enjoyment, that will be our disqualification for entering into the kingdom of God. Too much attachment, too much increasing of material civilization means that next life is very much dark. Bhogaisvarya. God. Too much attachment, too much increasing of material civilization means that next life is very much dark. Bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam [bg. 2.44]. Just like the other day I was explaining, raja-putra ciram jiva. "Oh, the son of royal order, you live forever. Because you do not know, next life is very dark for you. Because you do not cultivate any Krsna consciousness. You have got money, and you are enjoying sense enjoyment, and as soon as this body will be finished, no more your control. Then you are completely under the control of material nature, and you'll have to accept a body as you have done in this life, because this life is preparation for the next life."

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by jndas:

Please see this article:

 

"Sex in the spiritual world."

http://www.indiadivine.com/tattva11.htm

Hari Bol J N Das prabhuji,

 

Thanks for the link and I read it in full. But, I am afraid that I may not agree with it. There is an attempt to portray that sex in spiritual world is not a physical process as is in this material world. It is being stated that sex in spiritual world occurs through a mere exchange of glance or singing.

 

In Ramayana and other puranas, including Brahma Vaivarta purana, there are very lucid and candid depictions of sex. Those depictions are exactly the same as we experience in this material world. For example, the love-making between Krishna and Radha is described in such detail that one cannot really pretend that it takes place by a mere glance. Similarly, Kamba Ramayana describes the state of arousal of Sita and again that leaves no doubt whatsoever.

 

So, the claim in that link contradict what is actually written in our puranas. Also, soma is depicted as an intoxicant. If you read old Tamil sages like Tirumular, he describes it as the third eye. Interestingly, Rk veda denotes moon also by the same name and I have read in old Tamil works that moon and soma are used figuratively to depict the third eye. Some recent commentators like Sri Aurobindo also interpret the same way.

[theist]

Here is a factoid, an informational tid bit that kind of relates.

 

Those experienced in mere astral travel describe sex there also.But it can be experienced just by purposeful contact.The erotic componet is due to the intention of the two involved.

 

So what to speak of that 12 dimensional reality.Beyond our imagination.I don't think we really have a clue.

 

But for sure if you want to enjoy sex with a physical body a physical body you will get.

 

Krsna is so kind.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by J N Das:

But that isn't Krishna's opinion. He states one who is attached to enjoyment cannot know Him:

 

bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam

tayapahrta-cetasam

vyavasayatmika buddhih

samadhau na vidhiyate

[bg. 2.44]

 

"In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination for devotional service to the Lord does not take place."

 

Srila Prabhupada's lecture on this verse:

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Here is very important thing. The exact Sanskrit word is,

 

bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam

tayapahrta-cetasam

vyavasayatmika buddhih

samadhau na vidhiyate

Thanks prabhuji. I just highlighted in bold, a portion of Srila Prabhupad's translation. Is Krishna suggesting that one can attain Him, even after enjoying material life, provided he is not obsessed with them and bewildered by them?

 

There is atleast one another verse, 7:11, where Krishna talks of sex directly:

 

balam balavatam caham

kama-raga-vivarjitam

dharmaviruddho bhutesu

kamo 'smi bharatarsabha

 

Translation by SP: I am the strength of the strong, devoid of passion and desire. I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles, O lord of the Bharatas [Arjuna].

 

Another person raised a pertinent question - what is dharmic sex? Is sex within marriage considered dharmic? If so, what is the shastric basis for restrictions? I think this question needs to be answered satisfactorily. There are several instances in puranas where many devotees enjoyed sex and wealth, yet became liberated. Arjuna himself enjoyed them, yet became Krishna's friend. If we insist that sex is an impediment to liberation, how do we explain all these?

 

Is sex itself spiritual?

 

I am curious about verse 7:11. Could it be that sex itself is one of the means to attain Krishna or Supreme? Is that why it has been dealt with very favarobly by many great saints of the past and condemned by none [before GV]? Is that why, puranas have very vivid descriptions of love making between Krishna and Radha or Rama and Sita? If we insist that sex is an impediment to liberation then we have to answer another question: Why then, did great acaryas describe sex in such a detail and that too for common people?

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by Theist:

Here is a factoid, an informational tid bit that kind of relates.

Those experienced in mere astral travel describe sex there also.But it can be experienced just by purposeful contact.The erotic componet is due to the intention of the two involved.

 

So what to speak of that 12 dimensional reality.Beyond our imagination.I don't think we really have a clue.

 

But for sure if you want to enjoy sex with a physical body a physical body you will get.

 

Krsna is so kind.

Prabhuji, is there a shastric basis to the claim that sex in spiritual world is not physical but through intent alone? I think references from scriptures will be more relevant here than experiences of NDE travellers. If you see BVP or KR, there are very vivid descriptions of purely physical sex between Radha and Krishna or Rama and Sita respectively. I am unaware of any mention of sex by intent alone. Even old commentators seem to agree that Radha and Krishna made love deploying the various rules of Kamasutra.

 

I am not denying that by Krishna's grace anything is possible, but that is not relevant here, I feel.

[theist]

I was just trying to show that what we think of as sex in this world is not the same as sex in the spiritual world.Trying to impose our conceptions onto the Divine Couple is a useless endeavor.

 

Here sex is driven by urge.Urge is driven by hormones.One caught up in this conception of sex can't possibly have a clue as to what "sex" is between the Divine Couple.

[Rati]

Ah yes, the topic that refuses to die.

 

Just to sidestep the controversy for a moment: Sexual mores follow a cyclical pattern in human society (at least since historians have been writing on the subject). They tend to swing periodically from liberally promiscuous to puritanically repressive. Don't forget that the general population (whether you are talking about Europe or America or India or Japan) is not comprised of yogis.

 

Look at the example of the last half of the twentieth century in America, where the trend went from fairly restrictive to highly promiscuous for post-war baby boomers and now for the new generation of adolescents coming of age there is an increased trend of waiting until marriage.

 

OK, now you can get back to your debate.

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by Theist:

I was just trying to show that what we think of as sex in this world is not the same as sex in the spiritual world.Trying to impose our conceptions onto the Divine Couple is a useless endeavor.

Here sex is driven by urge.Urge is driven by hormones.One caught up in this conception of sex can't possibly have a clue as to what "sex" is between the Divine Couple.

My reading of the puranas, sometimes in original and sometimes translation, tells me that even in the Divine couple, be it Rama and Sita or Krishna and Radha, sex is driven by urge. I am not denying that the urge itself is qualitatively superior - nevertheless it is there. And the sexual process - that is where we disagree - is intensely physical and not mere intent as you suggest. In fact, I haven't come across even one instance of sex by intent alone in any puranas while I have seen many references to intensely physical love making. Please correct me if my understanding is wrong, with references. So, I am not trying to impose our conceptions on the Divine couple, but only presenting what is written in the books by great devotees. On the other hand, I feel that those who claim that love making between the Divine couple is not physical and just an intent are speculating or even skirting the whole issue due to some puritanical mindset or even prudishness, more so because I haven't been shown any references. Even if some references are shown, still one has to address the case of countless references that describe very physical and intense love-making between the Divine couple.

 

So, my case is that the sages who wrote those puranas didn't feel there was anything wrong in portraying sex between the Divine couple. Also I would argue that they didn't find anything wrong in enjoying sex within marriage.

 

Just to strengthen my argument, please allow me to present one quote from a translation of Brahma Vaivarta purana chapter 15 Krishna Janma Kanda. Here Narayana is describing the love making of Krishna and Radha:

 

Krishna pulled Radha with both His arms to His breast and stripped her of her clothes. Then He kissed Her in 4 different ways. In the combat of love making the bells in Radha's girdle were torn off. The colour of Her lips were wiped off by Krishna's kisses, the leaves drawn with sandal paste on her breasts were rubbed off by His warm kisses and caress, her hair came loose and the vermillion marks on her forehead disappeared.

 

Then Radha mounted Krishna and made love to Him in reversed coitus (a position in which the woman takes up the dominating role). The red lac on her feet was rubbed off and she had goose-flesh all over her body. She felt as if She were going to swoon in pleasure and couldn't make out between day and night. Then Krishna made love to Her in 8 different positions and tore Her body to shreds biting and scratching. The bells in Radha's girdle made sweet sounds as Krishna made love to Her and after a while, swooning in pleasure, unable to bear any more, Radha ceased from the combat of love making.

 

I have given the translation of Nirad Chaudhuri. There many more verses that are even more vivid in description. I simply don't understand how someone can state that these verses are not straightforward descriptions of passionate and very physical love-making.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

ye hi samsparsha-ja bhoga

duhkha-yonaya eva te

ady-antavantah kaunteya

na teshu ramate budhah

 

"An intelligent person does not take part in the sources of misery, which are due to contact with the material senses. O son of Kunti, such pleasures have a beginning and an end, and so the wise man does not delight in them."

 

This verse of the Gita is very significant. It explains that all our sufferings are due to "touch". Sense pleasure is the source of suffering in the material world. Those who are wise prefer to focus their consciousness towards Krishna, rather than become entangled in more suffering through sense enjoyment.

 

Again, I make the point that just by marriage sex does not magically become something divine. It is still the same material sense enjoyment that leads one to further suffering.

 

These are really fundamental principles of Vedanta, so I don't understand how they are difficult to accept.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The Bhagavatam instructs us further on this matter:

 

nayam deho deha-bhajam nr-loke

kastan kaman arhate vid-bhujam ye

tapo divyam putraka yena sattvam

suddhyed yasmad brahma-saukhyam tv anantam

 

“My dear sons, there is no reason to labor very hard for sense pleasure while in this human form of life; such pleasures are available to the stool-eaters [hogs]. Rather, you should undergo penances in this life by which your existence will be purified, and as a result you will be able to enjoy unlimited transcendental bliss.”

 

Human life is meant for tapas, not for sense enjoyment.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

So, my case is that the sages who wrote those puranas didn't feel there was anything wrong in portraying sex between the Divine couple. Also I would argue that they didn't find anything wrong in enjoying sex within marriage.

This is perhaps the reason the acharyas have warned against unqualified people reading the intimate pastimes of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna. They end up concluding it is more or less just ordinary sex, apparently quite applicable to you and me. In reality it is another realm of existence which we have no experience of.

 

Those who are liberated are able to relish the spiritual pastimes between Krishna and Radha. The rest of us just think, "Hey, why can't we do that too."

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

In regards to touch being the source of all sufferings, the Bhagavatam establishes a similar view:

 

yan maithunadi-grihamedhi-sukham hi tuccham

kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham

tripyanti neha kripana bahu-duhkha-bhajah

kandutivan manasijam vishaheta dhirah

 

"Sex life is compared to the rubbing of two hands to relieve an itch. Grhamedhis, so-called grhasthas who have no spiritual knowledge, think that this itching is the greatest platform of happiness, although actually it is a source of distress. The kripanas, the fools who are just the opposite of brahmanas, are not satisfied by repeated sensuous enjoyment. Those who are dhira, however, who are sober and who tolerate this itching, are not subjected to the sufferings of fools and rascals."

 

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by jndas:

This is perhaps the reason the acharyas have warned against unqualified people reading the intimate pastimes of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna. They end up concluding it is more or less just ordinary sex, apparently quite applicable to you and me. In reality it is another realm of existence which we have no experience of.

 

Those who are liberated are able to relish the spiritual pastimes between Krishna and Radha. The rest of us just think, "Hey, why can't we do that too."

I have some questions here:

 

Do any of these puranas themselves stipulate any qualification for hearing or reading them?

 

Has any acarya before GV stipulated such qualifications?

 

Is it not true that all puranas were part of the realm where lay public listened to them, through kathas?

 

I am just putting the pieces together and reasoning. On one hand, we have puranas and itihasas depict sex very positively and on the other hand we have temple sculptures that depict Kamashastras. Does it not actually corroborate what I say?

 

I recall a verse from Atharva veda that calls out to everyone, be they men or women, Brahmana or Shudra, to come out and listen to the hymns. Is this not another point that supports the argument that scriptures themselves don't talk of any qualification on the part of the reader? [if needed, I can look up to the verse]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The following verse and commentary by Srila Prabhupada explain the real meaning of dharmaviruddho bhutesu kamo 'smi bharatarsabha. It also establishes that a grihastha should approach his wife at the proper time for procreation.

 

etat sarvam grhasthasya

samamnatam yater api

guru-vrttir vikalpena

grhasthasyartu-gaminah

 

"All the rules and regulations apply equally to the householder and the sannyasi, the member of the renounced order of life. The grhastha, however, is given permission by the spiritual master to indulge in sex during the period favorable for procreation."

 

Prabhupada's Commentary:

 

It is sometimes misunderstood that a grhastha, a householder, is permitted to indulge in sex at any time. This is a wrong conception of grhastha life. In spiritual life, whether one is a grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasi or brahmacari, everyone is under the control of the spiritual master. For brahmacaris and sannyasis there are strong restrictions on sexual indulgence. Similarly, there are strong restrictions for grhasthas. Grhasthas should indulge in sex life only in accordance with the order of the guru. Therefore it is mentioned here that one must follow the orders of the spiritual master (guru-vrttir vikalpena). When the spiritual master orders, the grhastha may accept sex life. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (7.11). Dharmaviruddho bhutesu kamo 'smi: indulgence in sex life without disobedience to the religious rules and regulations constitutes a religious principle. The grhastha is allowed to indulge in sex life during the period favorable for procreation and in accordance with the spiritual master's order. If the spiritual master's orders allow a grhastha to engage in sex life at a particular time, then the grhastha may do so; otherwise, if the spiritual master orders against it, the grhastha should abstain. The grhastha must obtain permission from the spiritual master to observe the ritualistic ceremony of garbhadhana-samskara. Then he may approach his wife to beget children, otherwise not. A brahmana generally remains a brahmacari throughout his entire life, but although some brahmanas become grhasthas and indulge in sex life, they do so under the complete control of the spiritual master. The ksatriya is allowed to marry more than one wife, but this also must be in accordance with the instructions of the spiritual master. It is not that because one is a grhastha he may marry as many times as he likes and indulge in sex life as he likes. This is not spiritual life. In spiritual life, one must conduct one's whole life under the guidance of the guru. Only one who executes his spiritual life under the direction of the spiritual master can achieve the mercy of Krsna. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. If one desires to advance in spiritual life but he acts whimsically, not following the orders of the spiritual master, he has no shelter. Yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto 'pi. Without the spiritual master's order, even the grhastha should not indulge in sex life.

 

[karthik_v]

In principle, I agree that sex can bind one to the material world. But my only contention is that transcending sex happens to very few individuals, who aren't bothered by anything else material too. What I am against is indoctrination of ordinary people against sex. I also don't claim that sex becomes spiritual just because we are married.

 

One impression I get from the puranas is that the seers considered it best for most people to lead a grahastha life and enjoy sex within marriage. Perhaps, they are nowhere near liberation.

 

Also, I don't know if we can categorically state that sex is just a material afliction. This is due to 2 reasons: One, the description of sex life of the Supreme as found in the scriptures is passionate. So, it suggests that our sex life, though lesser in quality, is the same as that found in spiritual world. Two, many ancient works, in Tamil and Sanskrit, have explored sex as a path to liberation.

 

Does it not suggest a spiritual place for sex?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

So, it suggests that our sex life, though lesser in quality, is the same as that found in spiritual world.

It suggests nothing of the sort. The sex life of the material world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual activities of Lord Krishna. It is about as comparable in quality as the soul to matter.

 

How many ancient texts hold freedom from lust, anger and greed as their fundamental themes? The entire Bhagavad Gita revolves around these concepts, lust being the all-devouring enemy of the soul. To take a few elevated passages of the Lord's intimate pastimes with his devotees, which are completely spiritual, and then to justify our own mundane sex life (in a universal manner) just doesn't fit. Its like claiming 2 plus 2 from now on equals minus three. There is no foundation for such a claim.

 

The Bhagavatam on the other hand states a grihastha may approach his wife in season under the order of the guru. This is the same principle of regulation that Srila Prabhupada taught. It is not enough that one is married, but that one must be acting under the guidance of a liberated soul, who can perfectly advise us, keeping our own eternal self interest in mind.

 

[bhaktajoy]

<font color=blue size=4 face=verdana>Sex--The Highest Pleasure in a Rascal Culture</font>

 

They do not even know what knowledge is. To these fools and rascals, knowledge means sex. That is their knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means how to enjoy sex. How to take shelter of abortion--child killing. And how to perfect their contraceptive method. The whole thing is on the basis of sex. That's all. They do not know anything except these things. They know that after sex, there is so much botheration. But they cannot give sex up. Therefore, they make all these arrangements: take contraceptives, or kill the child. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (05-14-02)

 

This exchange between His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and some of his disciples took place on October 18, 1975, during a morning walk in Johannesburg, South Africa.

 

Disciple: Srila Prabhupada, people sometimes criticize, "Your Vedic culture was most solidly established in India. And India is now considered relatively poor and unfortunate. So why should we respect the Vedic culture?"

 

Srila Prabhupada: The thing is, when you Westerners went to India, you curbed the original Vedic culture down. The people in India could not take to your rascal Western culture, and thanks to you, they have lost their own culture. This is India's bad luck. The Britishers did not teach them how to actually take up the Western culture, but they killed the Eastern culture. You understand?

 

Disciple: Yes.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Now India has no position. She cannot take to the Western culture fully, and she has lost her own culture. This is India's bad luck. The Britishers never taught Indians how to become actually Westernized. No. They were not giving them sufficient education. Especially in the beginning, they were very much against giving the Indians higher education. They wanted some clerks to conduct their affairs‑some third-class, fourth-class men for their mercantile and government bureaucracies.

 

"Educated" meant ABCD. That's all. "Let the Indian people know ABCD and take fifty, sixty rupees' salary, and then go home to their little neighborhoods outside the city and return the next day on the train. Let them work hard here in our city and get just enough money to maintain themselves."

 

Nothing more. No money, no education, no real knowledge of industry. The Indian people were not taught properly. In America, for instance, I see the factories, and the arrangement is so nice. But go to those Indian factories‑it is hell. Hell. Simply hell. The Britishers exploited the Indians, and the mercantile class of India‑they have learned simply how to exploit.

 

Disciple: Exploit their own people.

 

Srila Prabhupada: That's all. Formerly, the Manchester people were exploiting the Indians. And now the Ahmedabad people‑‑they have learned how to exploit. That's all. And the government is satisfied, because the exploiters pay taxes: "Never mind. The workers may go on suffering." This is going on. And the Indian people have lost their own culture. They have been taught how to drink alcohol, how to eat flesh.

 

Aside from all this, the Indian people cannot work as hard as the Western people can work. The hot climate does not allow. India's climate is good for living peacefully, not working so hard, and instead, engaging the brain in spiritual advancement. That is India's gift. Her people are not meant for hard work.

 

Actually, hard work is not required for anyone. This is animal civilization‑simply to work very hard. If a man simply works hard like an animal, then what is the difference between the man and an animal? If a man has to work hard like an animal, then what is the difference? Here in the Western countries, their climate is more suitable for heavy industry, and as one would expect, they are being taught to work very hard like animals, and they do that. Therefore, materially they have become so‑called advanced, to the point that spiritually, they are committing suicide. Is it not?

 

Disciple: This is true.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Materially advanced; spiritually suicidal. Am I right or wrong?

 

Disciple: Right, Srila Prabhupada. Another dimension also comes to mind. In your commentary on Srimad‑Bhagavatam, you write that if people want to increase their material advancement, then they should also increase their sex lives.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Without sex one cannot be materially enthusiastic. And if you stop sex, then you become spiritually advanced. This is the secret. If you stop sex, then you will become spiritually advanced, and if you indulge in sex, then you will become materially enthusiastic. That is the difference between Western and Eastern culture. The whole Eastern culture is based on how to stop sex, and here in the Western countries‑‑how to increase sex. They are eating meat, eggs, drinking wine. These things will increase sex desire. And as soon as you get a very satisfactory sex life, you become enthusiastic to work hard. Therefore for karmis, or those seeking material advancement, marriage is necessary, because without sex they cannot work. And for those seeking spiritual advancement, sex is prohibited.

 

Actually, in this Western culture, people do not know the science of life. For them, "life" means this body. Their life is this body. That means they donot know what life is. After all, when the living person has gone, the body that they thought he was‑‑it is lying there. They are very proud of their scientific advancement, but in reality, do they know who the person was? They cannot explain. This is their ignorance. And yet they are very proud of their advancement.

 

But once this person's life span has come to an end, can they bring him back to life? That they cannot do. That means the whole basic principle of their so‑called culture is ignorance. Mudho yam nabhijanati: Krsna says, "Fools and rascals can never understand the soul or the Supreme Soul." And moghasa mogha-karmano mogha-jnana vicetasah: "Their material cleverness‑their so-called knowledge‑leaves them spiritually baffled and bewildered." Why? Raksasim asurim caiva prakrtim mohinim sritah: "Those who take the shelter not of My divine nature but of prakrti, the material nature, become so bewildered that they do not know life's real aim." Moghasa: "They are utterly baffled." And therefore, mogha‑karmano: "Whatever they are doing‑‑that will be useless." Again, mogha‑jnana: in this so‑called advanced culture, there is no spiritual knowledge. So actually there is no knowledge.

 

Disciple: So with their advancement of knowledge...

 

Srila Prabhupada: What advancement of knowledge?

 

Disciple: ... they are increasing their sex lives, but if they were really advanced in knowledge, they would be decreasing their sex lives.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. They do not even know what knowledge is. To these fools and rascals, knowledge means sex. That is their knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means how to enjoy sex. How to take shelter of abortion‑child killing. And how to perfect their contraceptive method. The whole thing is on the basis of sex. That's all. They do not know anything except these things. They know that after sex, there is so much botheration. But they cannot give sex up. Therefore, they make all these arrangements: take contraceptives, or kill the child.

 

That means their whole so‑called civilization, their whole culture, is based on sex. That's all. But yan maithunadi grhamedhi sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha duhkham: "Sex is like the rubbing of two hands to relieve an itch. Those with no spiritual knowledge consider this itching the greatest happiness, although actually, from start to finish, the whole business is distress‑‑and it is most abominable." Is that pleasure? These supposedly advanced rascals think it is pleasure to unite the urine-passing parts. [Laughter.] And we have to believe this is pleasure‑a standard of pleasure utterly third‑class, fourth‑class. Yan maithunadi grhamedhi sukham hi tuccham. Very abominable. Tuccham: the Vedic literature says, "Sex is mostabominable." And yet these fools take it as the highest goal, and they make all sorts of elaborate arrangements for this abominable pleasure.

 

When dogs have sex, everyone knows their whole "enjoyment" is abominable and insignificant. Therefore, dogs are allowed to do it on the street. And people can see it. Is that a very nice scene? Yet when the same abominable and insignificant thing is done by the human beings, they are taking it that"This is the highest." This is the basic principle of their happiness. That's all. Mohini. Mohini. Captivation by the opposite sex.

 

And this is real captivation. For instance, nature has already made women's faces, breasts, and hips beautiful, their singing and talking and walking all very attractive. And now, thanks to this rascal culture, the women are walking around virtually naked. This is going on. The whole thing is based on sex, and that is tuccham, most abominable. Prakrtim mohinim sritah: people areare being taught to take shelter of the material nature's potency for bewilderment. So it will take them three hundred births to understand that this sex pleasure is actually abominable. Therefore, in Bhagavad‑gita Krsna says, bahunam janmanam ante: "A rascal gains the wisdom to surrender to Me only after many, many births." Not that immediately, simply by hearing our Bhagavad-gita lecture, people will give this abominable pleasure up. It will take many, many births to understand.

 

If you stop sex, then you become spiritually advanced. This is the secret. If you stop sex, then you will become spiritually advanced, and if you indulge in sex, then you will become materially enthusiastic. That is the difference between Western and Eastern culture. The whole Eastern culture is based on how to stop sex, and here in the Western countries‑how to increase sex.

 

In the Vedic system, sex is allowed only for begetting children. In other words, restriction. Sex is allowed, but with great restriction--under religious rules and regulations.

 

There are so many things, such as the garbhadana or seed-giving ceremony. The first principle is, even when sex is employed properly, for begetting a child; it is not undertaken secretly, without anyone else's knowledge. Garbhadana-samskara. There should be a ceremonial function. All the brahmanas and relatives come, and everyone knows, "Very soon this man is going to have sex for begetting a child." There is a public heralding--not that the sexual activity is done secretly, like cats and dogs.

 

Actually, even cats and dogs do not have sex secretly. Human beings do it secretly because they do not want the botheration of having a child. Therefore, their "scientific advancement" especially means how to kill the child: how to take and distribute contraceptive pills, how to arrange for abortions, and how to allow the young people, "Yes, you go on having sex, but take these pills so that you may not be bothered."

 

Why not stop all the botheration of sex altogether? That they cannot, because they are animals. Because they have created an animal civilization, they cannot escape all this botheration. Kandutive manivasi visaheta dhirah. Why don't they teach people to become dhirah, sober‑‑"Let me tolerate this itching sensation"‑brahmacari?

 

Their teaching is not good: "You should have sex repeatedly"--and then suffer the consequences. And to avoid suffering the consequences, people become implicated in more and more suffering. Bahu‑duhkha bhajah: after sex--licit or illicit--the consequence is suffering. Even when the sex is licit, then you still have to take care of your wife, and you also have to take care of the children, always in anxiety about their food and clothing, their education, their upliftment, and so on and so forth--always undergoing suffering.

 

And if the sex is illicit, then you have to undergo these sufferings: because you commit the sin of killing the child by contraceptives or abortion, as a result, in your next life you must be killed. And in the mean time, you have to go to the doctor and pay his exorbitant fees, and so on. So where is the relief from suffering? Whether illicit or licit, sex means you have to suffer.

 

But trpyanti neha krpana bahu‑duhkha bhajah. These rascals--once they have had sex, they cannot be done with it: "That's all right. I have already got one child to take care of.No. I must have sex again and again."

 

You would think that once someone had committed sinful activities such as killing the child in the womb, then he would say, "All right. Stop it now.No. Again." Trpyanti neha krpana: such a miserly person is never satisfied. He knows that following his sinful activity, there will be suffering. Still, he'll not stop this sinfulness.

 

Therefore, a man should be educated to become sober: "Let me tolerate this itching. That's all. I'll save so much trouble." This is knowledge. To become a rascal and then more and more of a rascal and then suffer--is that civilization? Does civilization mean simply making people rascals, so that they can suffer and commit spiritual suicide?

 

Just tell people that they have created this civilization of "Become a rascal and then suffer." And all their sufferings are nature's arrangement. She says, "You living entity--you have forgotten Krsna. All right, now you must come under my control. You have become a rascal. Now suffer." Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya. Krsna says, "My material nature is very severe, very punishing." Why she is doing that? She is teaching us, "Surrender to Krsna. Otherwise, you will go on suffering like this." This is nature's way.

 

But the rascal--because he is a rascal--does not know that prakrteh kriya-manani gunaih karmani: "I am under the full control of prakrti, material nature, and her business is to keep me a rascal and make me suffer." And yet these rascals are thinking themselves advanced in education.

 

Disciple: But they will say that this so‑called suffering is actually pleasure.

 

Srila Prabhupada: That's all right. Go on with your "pleasure." Who is stopping you? Enjoy this "pleasure." But if everything is pleasure, then why are you taking up a countermeasure? Why do you want to kill the child? Pleasure? Why do you take up the contraceptive method--if this whole business is pleasure?

 

That is the proof of what rascals they are. Mudha nabhijanati: Krsna says, "Rascals can never understand what is what." Try to understand why Krsna has said so many times, mudha ... mayayapahrta‑jnana: "These people are rascals, whose so-called knowledge is stolen by illusion." Krsna, the Supreme Lord, is speaking like that, so there must be some meaning. Human civilization means giving relief to the human being. Comfortable life--not repeating the business of the animals. That is human civilization.

 

Disciple: Srila Prabhupada, in everyday life we see that only the devotees are somewhat free from anxiety.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. That's a fact. We have little anxieties, simply because we have to deal with this rascal world. Otherwise, we have no anxiety. But we have taken this mission, to go and approach people and tell them the truth. Therefore, we have got a little anxiety. Otherwise, there is no question of anxiety. Because we are mixing with these rascals‑‑and we have to do that, we who have taken up this mission‑‑therefore, we have some little anxiety. That is also not very much. But in any case, you must know, the whole world is full of rascals and fools. That is not an exaggeration. Eh? Or have you got a different opinion?

 

Disciple: No.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Hm? What do you think? Do you agree?

 

Disciple: They are mudhas.

 

Srila Prabhupada (laughing): Our verdict is final: "All rascals and fools." Therefore, when I ask these rascals, "Any question?", they are stopped. (Laughter.) "Come on. Any question?" What they will question? I challenge them, "Any question?" They know that "We have been proved rascals."

 

During my lecture last night, I quoted Krsna's chastising words in Bhagavad-gita. Asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna‑vadams: "While speaking supposedly learned words, you are dwelling upon the temporary material body, which does not deserve so much attention." And I said, "This is the position of everyone. Everyone is a fool, a rascal, ignoring the real problem of life."

 

And nobody challenged--"Why are you calling everyone a rascal?" In Montreal one Bengali gentleman did inquire, "Swamiji, you are using very strong words.`Fools and rascals.' Can it be explained otherwise?" And I replied, "No. This is the only word--that you are all rascals and fools. This is the only word that can be used." (Laughter.)

 

Disciple: Srila Prabhupada, you once said that anyone who has a material body is a rascal.

 

Srila Prabhupada: A rascal--that's all. And yet these rascals are trying to make this body permanent, even though they know they cannot make it permanent. You cannot make this material body permanent. You are not allowed to keep it, nor will you ever be allowed. Still, punah punas carvita‑carvananam: repeatedly, these fools go on trying. What is impossible, what cannot be allowed--they are trying for it. After all, how can this material body be made permanent? But these fools say, "Yes, we are trying. Now disease has been reduced. Now we are living a few more years." These are their foolish words. They will never say, "No, it is impossible." They will go on heralding their rascal endeavors.

 

Disciple: Srila Prabhupada, it appears these people just can't accept that all their endeavors to make the body permanent will be defeated.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Of course, they are seeing, they are experiencing thattheir endeavors are doomed. History never says that any man has become immortal. Even a great demon like Hiranyakasipu could not become immortal. A great demon like Hiranyakasipu--he could not become immortal. And what to speak of these tiny demons? One kick is sufficient to kill them. (To be continued.)

 

 

 

[bhaktajoy]

There is no difference between Krsna's body and soul so everything he experiences is completely spiritual not tainted by material modes and desires.

[Guest guest]

Originally posted by jndas:

The following verse and commentary by Srila Prabhupada explain the real meaning of dharmaviruddho bhutesu kamo 'smi bharatarsabha. It also establishes that a grihastha should approach his wife at the proper time for procreation.

 

etat sarvam grhasthasya

samamnatam yater api

guru-vrttir vikalpena

grhasthasyartu-gaminah

 

"All the rules and regulations apply equally to the householder and the sannyasi, the member of the renounced order of life. The grhastha, however, is given permission by the spiritual master to indulge in sex during the period favorable for procreation."

 

Prabhupada's Commentary:

 

It is sometimes misunderstood that a grhastha, a householder, is permitted to indulge in sex at any time. This is a wrong conception of grhastha life. In spiritual life, whether one is a grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasi or brahmacari, everyone is under the control of the spiritual master. For brahmacaris and sannyasis there are strong restrictions on sexual indulgence. Similarly, there are strong restrictions for grhasthas. Grhasthas should indulge in sex life only in accordance with the order of the guru. Therefore it is mentioned here that one must follow the orders of the spiritual master (guru-vrttir vikalpena). When the spiritual master orders, the grhastha may accept sex life. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (7.11). Dharmaviruddho bhutesu kamo 'smi: indulgence in sex life without disobedience to the religious rules and regulations constitutes a religious principle. The grhastha is allowed to indulge in sex life during the period favorable for procreation and in accordance with the spiritual master's order. If the spiritual master's orders allow a grhastha to engage in sex life at a particular time, then the grhastha may do so; otherwise, if the spiritual master orders against it, the grhastha should abstain. The grhastha must obtain permission from the spiritual master to observe the ritualistic ceremony of garbhadhana-samskara. Then he may approach his wife to beget children, otherwise not. A brahmana generally remains a brahmacari throughout his entire life, but although some brahmanas become grhasthas and indulge in sex life, they do so under the complete control of the spiritual master. The ksatriya is allowed to marry more than one wife, but this also must be in accordance with the instructions of the spiritual master. It is not that because one is a grhastha he may marry as many times as he likes and indulge in sex life as he likes. This is not spiritual life. In spiritual life, one must conduct one's whole life under the guidance of the guru. Only one who executes his spiritual life under the direction of the spiritual master can achieve the mercy of Krsna. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. If one desires to advance in spiritual life but he acts whimsically, not following the orders of the spiritual master, he has no shelter. Yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto 'pi. Without the spiritual master's order, even the grhastha should not indulge in sex life.

Karthik, does this not establish that sex is for the purpose of procreation ? Is this verse from Srimad Bhagavatham ?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The verse is from Srimad Bhagavatam 7.12.11.

 

[mahak]

Sexual desire is an artificial imposition of the mind. This is why the desire may be amplified by outside sources. Spiritual desire is self generated, sparked by the Supreme Paramatma from within. Outside sources may inspire such, but not so much by mechanical manipulation.

 

In the west, the sex act is so over-advertized as pleassurable, and the followers (slaves of the media and society icons) just eat it up. Absent such outside manipulation by those who want your slavery service, sex is performed for procreation.

 

Pleasure is there, but the pleasure is from the movement of spirit, from the male to the female, then from the female to terra firma.

 

The purpose of sadhana bhakti is to gradually focus on the Supreme Lord. Lord Jesus Christ first commands that we Love the Father with entire mind, body and spirit. "Entire" means simultaneous rejection of all that drains focus. Sadhana bhakti process is contrived at first, and sometimes seems artificial, yet under guidance from an expert, the artificiality is replaced by genuine "cent percent" focus.

 

So, I could care less what the veda says about sex acts. If my focus is drained by "manipulated by outside forces desires", the physician Guru who prescribes regulation of such desire takes precedence over stories largely misunderstood by today's society.

 

pretend-Tantravadis may say that any sex is cool and spiritual, but tantric shastra demands "control" over casting seeds whimsically, so, if one cant take the semen back after it is out, then there is only hedonism going on, not to be confused with real yoga practice.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[abhi_the_great]

Sex desire is normal and natural. Its in Krishna and its in us, who are parts of Krishna. But we have a perverted reflection of the pure sex in the spiritual world.

 

I feel we are either becoming sex fanatics or anti-sex fanatics here. Both are not necessary. Can a sex fanatic prove that he can have sex thru-out day and nite without feeling aversion for it OR can the anti-sex fanatics claim that they have never wasted a drop of semen in their life or never had sex even in their minds??

 

The basic idea, the goal, is neither to become a sexy guy nor a celibate. The goal is to become a humble and simple devotee of Krishna. Its Ok to admit our inability to surrender fully and feel humbled, its OK to have tried to become celibate and become humbled. Its all a reason to be devoted to Krishna. No one can justify themselves, if their practices do not make them Krishna Conscious or if they act as hypocrites.

 

The solution: just be genuine to yourself. The priority is always chanting and hearing, the rest will follow. One of my friends told me this idea - follow the basic 4 regulations and concentrate more on the 'do's. Do more chanting, do more reading, do more associating, do more preaching, do more serving. When the 'do's increase the 'dont's will gradually wane. Cultivate a more positive spirit. Don't give more than necessary importance to the 'dont's.

 

The best thing to do is to associate with like minded devotees and the worst thing to do is to argue with devotees having a different perspective. Lets work towards the goal and not get stuck in the details.