sex in the spiritual world?

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by ram:

Karthik, does this not establish that sex is for the purpose of procreation ? Is this verse from Srimad Bhagavatham ?

Yes, if we take Srimad Bhagavatam alone as an authority, then it establishes that sex is for procreation alone. In that case, we should reject all the puranas, itihasas and even Rg veda, because they all describe passionate sex not necessarily for procreation. One cannot claim that he accepts Rg veda, Ramayana, BVP, Andal etc., and still claim that sex is for procreation alone. So, here we have 2 sets of scriptures - a majority saying nothing against sex and SB saying it is for procreation alone. We also have countless treatises on kamashastras written over ages and depicted in all temples. If you read Tiruppavai, it has very vivid descriptions of a Andal's arousal as she is sexually attracted to Vishnu. How do you reconcile with this?

 

Then, you may also want to ponder over as to why no school, not even Sri Vaishnavas, places such importance on SB. In fact Sri Ramanujacarya didn't even quote from that once.

 

It is your choice, though at the end of the day. When dogma takes over, facts and reason go for a six. I also understand that this is often a sensitive matter and many people may be quite upset with my views. that is precisely the reason why I didn't post verses from BVP or KR which are even more vivid and sensuous.

 

I will conclude my views on this thread with one last observation: Our scriptures contain many examples where even rshis enjoyed very carnal sex and still attained liberation. I would suggest that you read Patanjali or Tirumular and both even treat sex as one of the ways for realization. Yet, the same scriptures also talk of dharmic sex - which is not defined anywhere. Even in BG, Krishna doesn't say that He is sex which is used for procreation. He says that He is sex that is not against dharma. In the same BG, there are verses where He almost defines what dharma is. He talks of defending one's family, kingdom etc., yet doesn't even hint that sex for pleasure within marriage is adharmic. So, in my opinion, any interpretation claiming so is a stretch.

 

A truly realized person transcends sex as well as all material pleasures. He doesn't repress any of them. Are you still attracted to paper boats and lullabys? Even SB says that kamini and pratishta asha are the toughest to overcome. So, indoctrination against sex is wrong. We have seen that those sannyasis who were indoctrinated against sex just fell down. Barring one or two, others are very political too. None of that is a sign of transcendence. The general population is light years away from going back to Krishna. They are, as Abhi pointed out, better off being genuine. They should enjoy sex within marriage and paralelly pursue bhakti.

 

The marriage hymns of Rg veda state that a man and a woman bound in marriage should satisy each other sexually. I urge you to read RV. One of the words used there is described at length in 2 books - Kamasutra and BVP. Both say that a man should deploy 16 steps for satisfying his wife and the woman should do 22 things to satisfy the man. In BVP, Krishna did 16 of those things to satisfy Radha and Radha responded by doing 19 of those things.

 

To me all these are clear signs that there is no restriction on sex within marriage. In fact, commentaries on BVP by other Vaishnavas even agree that Radh's love-making correspond to the rules of sound and rhythm as defined in KS. Above all, one needs to answer as to why no school outside of GV ever placed any restriction on sex within marriage. Anyway, I conclude my contribution to this thread and will go to other threads. Hari Bol.

[bhaktajoy]

Srila Prabhupada has cleared all our doubts in his books.

 

[This message has been edited by bhaktajoy (edited 05-16-2002).]

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

He says that He is sex that is not against dharma.

 

Which, if we accept the Srimad Bhagavatam as a revealed scripture, means "under the guidance of the guru for procreation."

 

Then, you may also want to ponder over as to why no school, not even Sri Vaishnavas, places such importance on SB.

 

It seems your are limiting your choice of schools to those of Iyengars and Iyers. This is just an absurb statement. There are plenty of schools that accept Srimad Bhagavatam as a revealed scripture, and many acharya's have written commentaries on it, beginning with Sridhar Swami, who is respected and quoted by both Vaishnava's and advaitis alike.

 

Ramanuja did not quote from Bhagavatam because Vishnu Purana establishes his school's prayojana-jnana better.

 

The logic you follow on this point is faulty. How many commentaries on Vishnu Purana are there by Gaudiya acharyas? How many verses are even cited? Maybe a few, nothing much. Does this indicate that Gaudiya's do not accept Vishnu Purana? Certainly it does not mean this. But Srimad Bhagavatam establishes the prayojana-jnana of the Gaudiya school perfectly, and is thus focused on in that school.

 

We should really decide if we want to accept Kama-sutra as our shastra over that of Srimad Bhagavatam. Certainly no saint has taken this stand, and it really isn't that beneficial for us to do so either.

 

Yes, if we take Srimad Bhagavatam alone as an authority, then it establishes that sex is for procreation alone. In that case, we should reject all the puranas, itihasas and even Rg veda.

 

Or maybe you have just misunderstood the conclusions of the Puranas as well. Srimad Bhagavatam also describes Lord Krishna's intimate rasa-lila, yet it establishes our personal dharma as one of regulation under the guidance of the guru. We need to go beyond casual reading, where we see only what we want to see - ignoring everything else that doesn't fit our preconceived conclusions.

 

...because they all describe passionate sex not necessarily for procreation.

 

It is a great sin to misuse one's semen, for it not only affects us, but affects the lives of living entities waiting for their chance at birth. Thus when the Bhagavatam tells us to receive guidance from the guru, and when the Bhagavatam tells engage in sex for procreation, it is for our own welfare.

 

One cannot claim that he accepts Rg veda...

 

On one hand you will say the Rig Veda is all symbolism, then you will switch and try to use it literally as evidence for supporting carnal sex. See how Sri Aurobindo interprets those passages.

 

One cannot claim that he accepts Rg veda, Ramayana, BVP, Andal etc., and still claim that sex is for procreation alone.

 

Again, the Bhagavatam does describe Krishna's intimate pastimes with the gopis; yet for us conditioned souls, it establishes surrender to the guru and sex for procreation as the regulations to follow. There is no contradiction in the teachings of the Puranas. The confusion comes when we want to imitate the Lord instead of following His instructions, or bhagavata-dharma.

 

So, here we have 2 sets of scriptures - a majority saying nothing against sex and SB saying it is for procreation alone.

 

Yet a few days ago the stance was that absolutey no scripture or acharya has taught such a thing. Now we have shown the Bhagavatam does teach this, and the answer is, "The Bhagavatam must therefore be false." You are too confident of what you think the Puranas teach. Don't be a grasshopper, jumping from one book to another, little here, little there. If tomorrow I show you a verse from Brahma Vaivarta Purana stating the same thing, what will be your next stance? It is also false? Of course I think the immediate answer will be, "There is absolutely no such statement in Brahma Vaivarta Purana." If that would be your next statement, then you should first be pretty confident of what is in the text, so that there are no surprises.

 

We also have countless treatises on kamashastras written over ages and depicted in all temples.

 

Has any acharya quoted from kama-sutra? Or have there at least been instuctions that, "Grihasthas should follow the kama-sutra." Simply because a text is in sanskrit does not make it of value. We can tell obscene words in sanskrit as well, that does not make them mantras.

 

It is your choice, though at the end of the day. When dogma takes over, facts and reason go for a six.

 

It has nothing to do with dogma or lack of reason, but rather it is imposing preconceived conceptions onto the scriptures. The fact that you are willing to reject the Bhagavatam because it doesn't confirm your stance is ample proof.

 

Our scriptures contain many examples where even rshis enjoyed very carnal sex and still attained liberation.

 

First, we all know of the countless troubles and curses experienced by so many rishis of our Puranas. Though many were saintly and elevated, many were still conditioned souls subjected to the influence of their karmas. That some have done carnal things, yet still had been able to be purified through divine sanga is a credit to the path of self realization. To take them as our example to imitate is a great mistake, as we certainly do not possess the divine qualifications that they did.

 

I would suggest that you read Patanjali or Tirumular and both even treat sex as one of the ways for realization.

 

You are confused about the teachings of Patanjali. His yoga system begins with yama and niyama, the fourth step of which is brahmacharya:

 

tatra ahimsa-satyasteya-brahmacharyaparigraha yamah

(Yoga Sutras 2.30)

 

"Yama consists of nonviolence, truthfulness, avoidance of theft, brahmacharya (celibacy), and nonpossessiveness."

 

Swami Prabhavananda, of the Ramakrishna Mission comments on this verse: "...Sex is inseparable from attachment, attachment is an obstacle to spiritual knowledge." I quote this only to show that it is a fundamental teaching of Vedanta that material enjoyment leads one to bondage.

 

Patanjali goes on to explain the evils of not following these five yamas:

 

vitarka himsadayah krita-karitanumodita lobha-krodha-moha-purvaka mridu-madhyadhimatra duhkhajnananantaphala iti pratipaksha-bhavanam

 

"The obstacles of yoga - such as acts of violence, untruth, theft, greed, and lust - may be directly created or indirectly caused or approved, they may be motivated by greed, anger or self-interest, they may be small or moderate or great, but they never cease to result in pain and ignorance. One should overcome distracting thoughts by remembering this."

 

Thus for one's ultimate welfare, one should regulate these activities which bring one suffering and ignorance, for they destroy the path of yoga. Again, this is a fundamental principle.

 

Further, the third niyama of Patanjali is tapas, or austerity, self-control and discipline:

 

shauca-santosha-tapah-svadhyayeshvara-pranidhanani niyamah

 

And of course, the fifth limb of yoga is pratyahara, withdrawing the senses from sense objects.

 

These works need to be studied under the guidance of a guru and not as recreational reading.

 

In the same BG, there are verses where He almost defines what dharma is. He talks of defending one's family, kingdom etc., yet doesn't even hint that sex for pleasure within marriage is adharmic.

 

He establishes kama (lust) as the all-devouring sinful enemy of the soul. He states that lust is insatiable and cannot be extinguished, just as fire cannot be extinguished by pouring fuel on it. He has spoken quite clearly on the dangers of sex and all material enjoyment. He further establishes that one must become free from attachment, fear and anger to attain Him: vita-raga-bhaya-krodha man-maya mam upasritah. He states that those who are attached to bhoga and aishvarya cannot develop spiritual determination (vyavasayatmika-buddhi) which is essential for advancing in spiritual life.

 

Certain teachings are so obviously true, that they don't require being taught. Krishna does not speak to Arjuna about the evils of child molestation, homosexuality, or poking people's eyes out with sharp sticks. Why? Because Arjuna is a civilized human and thus doesn't require such absurd teachings. The divine culture is already engrained in him.

 

So, indoctrination against sex is wrong.

 

Saints such as Srila Prabhupada are just advising people, for their own welfare, to engage in sex for procreation. It really isn't a huge sacrifice or artificial supression. If we want to advance spiritually we should be willing to make at least the most insignificant sacrifices. Any less and there really is little point.

 

We have seen that those sannyasis who were indoctrinated against sex just fell down. Barring one or two, others are very political too.

 

Your arguments are weak and going in a tangent.

 

The general population is light years away from going back to Krishna.

 

And they should be encouraged to moved forward towards Krishna, by gradually offering everything as a sacrifice to Him, ultimatley including themselves.

 

They are, as Abhi pointed out, better off being genuine. They should enjoy sex within marriage and paralelly pursue bhakti.

 

The paths of pravritti marga (the path of eternal bondage) and nivritti marga (the path of liberation) are certainly opposite and noncompatible. It is like trying to drink poison and amrita at the same time. Those who seriously want to attain Krishna in this life should be encouraged to gradually regulate and purify their life through disciplines and sadhana. Not artificial renunciation, but voluntary acceptance of gradual austerity for eventual purification.

 

The marriage hymns of Rg veda state that a man and a woman bound in marriage should satisy each other sexually.

 

Which can be done through procreation.

 

Above all, one needs to answer as to why no school outside of GV ever placed any restriction on sex within marriage.

 

This is another incorrect statement. Even advaiti sadhus such as Swami Shivananda of Hrishikesh have instructed their grihastha disciples to observe various levels of brahmacharya within marriage. It is actually one of his fundamental teachings.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-16-2002).]

[bhaktajoy]

Q: Where do persons go who aspire after liberation or sense enjoyment respectively?

 

A: The first person attains a body that is immovable (such as a stone or mountain), and the other attains a celestial body.

[bhaktajoy]

Accept Sannyasa

 

 

Ramananda suggested that we give up practicing the rules of varnasrama-dharma and take sannyasa. Acceptance of sannyasa means to renounce materialistic life, and in doing so one has to engage fully in the devotional service of Godhead. In support of this idea, Ramananda quoted the above sloka from the Srimad-Bhagavatam. He also supported his suggestion with another sloka from the Bhagavad-gita (18.66):

 

sarva-dharman parityajya

mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo

moksayisyami ma sucah

 

 

Here, the Personality of Godhead desires that everyone give up all other religious considerations and engage wholly and solely in following Him exclusively. "I will protect you from all difficulties arising out of renouncing all other engagements. You have nothing to fear."

 

 

Go Higher

 

 

An improved consciousness for the materialists is a desire to either retire from material activities or stay at a place that is undisturbed by the uproar of the modes of nature. The river Viraja is outside the boundary of the material world where there is no disturbance from the three modes of nature. The material world is the creation of the external energy of Godhead, and Vaikuntha, the spiritual world, is the creation of the internal energy of Godhead. Viraja is situated between the material world and the spiritual world. It is outside the boundary of both the material and the spiritual world. However, renunciation without any positive engagement is imperfect and cannot give the candidate the desired result of love of God.

 

The aim of Lord Caitanya is to bring people to the spiritual world. Therefore, this suggestion of Ramananda, which does not take one within the boundary of Vaikuntha, was also rejected by the Lord. Negating the material activities or becoming disinterested in material activities does not suggest accepting positive spiritual activities. Spiritual activities completely depend on spiritual understanding. People having no realization of the spiritual world cannot sustain themselves by giving up all other activities. One must have a positive transcendental engagement. Otherwise, simply negating the material activities of religiosity will not help one the slightest bit in spiritual realization. By such renunciation, one will simply feed a void in his life and will again be attracted by the material activities for want of actual spiritual engagements. This sort of spiritual realization is another type of impersonal conception and is therefore not ultimately suitable for the prospective devotee.

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/guardians_fs.html

 

[karthik_v]

Can't resist posting once more

 

Originally posted by J N Das:

Which, if we accept the Srimad Bhagavatam as a revealed scripture, means "under the guidance of the guru for procreation."

 

That is where the contention is

 

It seems your are limiting your choice of schools to those of Iyengars and Iyers. This is just an absurb statement. There are plenty of schools that accept Srimad Bhagavatam as a revealed scripture, and many acharya's have written commentaries on it, beginning with Sridhar Swami, who is respected and quoted by both Vaishnava's and advaitis alike.

 

It is very essential that Iyers [smarthas] and Iyengars [sri Vaishnavas] accept a treatise as bonafide. This is because that these are the 2 sects that have the most continuous tradition. They also retain the oldest references in scriptures as well as epigraphic works. The difference is they both reject SB, if it contradicts the shrutis. I presume that you are referring to Sridhara Swami of Puri Sankara mutt. Please correct me if I am wrong. Not only Sridhara Swami, even Kanchi Paramacarya has quoted from SB. Even Sri Vaishnavas and Smarthas accept many parts of SB as valid. Writing comentary is one thing; accepting that book as Supreme is another. For example, Ramayana is revered by all schools. How many accept that as the Supreme book? Also, the pertinent question is: Did the Advaitins establish their principles using SB as the Supreme scripture? I doubt. So far as I have known, they substantiate their argument only using shrutis.

 

Ramanuja did not quote from Bhagavatam because Vishnu Purana establishes his school's prayojana-jnana better.

 

Not that he quoted from VP prolifically either. Such quotes were few. He established his principles using Brahma sutras and not puranas. Puranas were always given secondary importance in Sri Vaishnava tradition.

 

We should really decide if we want to accept Kama-sutra as our shastra over that of Srimad Bhagavatam. Certainly no saint has taken this stand, and it really isn't that beneficial for us to do so either.

 

You are absolutely correct. That is not what I suggest either. My contention is transcending sex happens to very few. The rest are better off by enjoying sex within marriage. Why else do you think no acarya ever objected to portraying Kamasutra in temple engravings?

 

Or maybe you have just misunderstood the conclusions of the Puranas as well. Srimad Bhagavatam also describes Lord Krishna's intimate rasa-lila, yet it establishes our personal dharma as one of regulation under the guidance of the guru. We need to go beyond casual reading, where we see only what we want to see - ignoring everything else that doesn't fit our preconceived conclusions.

 

I am certainly guilty of casual reading. I will accept your advice without contest. Yet I would also like to hear which other scripture commonly accepted by all schools advocates sexual restraint within marriage. Also, why no acarya criticized Kamashastra depictions in the temples.

 

On one hand you will say the Rig Veda is all symbolism, then you will switch and try to use it literally as evidence for supporting carnal sex. See how Sri Aurobindo interprets those passages.

 

Prabhuji, of all my weaknesses, hypocrisy isn't one Some verses in RV carry a literal meaning too. Yesterday, I posted one such with the commentary of a Sri Vaishnava acarya. Tonite, I will check Sri Aurobindo's commentary on them as well. I was giving Sayanacarya's interpretation.

 

Yet a few days ago the stance was that absolutey no scripture or acharya has taught such a thing. Now we have shown the Bhagavatam does teach this, and the answer is, "The Bhagavatam must therefore be false." You are too confident of what you think the Puranas teach. Don't be a grasshopper, jumping from one book to another, little here, little there. If tomorrow I show you a verse from Brahma Vaivarta Purana stating the same thing, what will be your next stance? It is also false? Of course I think the answer will be, "There is absolutely no such statement in Brahma Vaivarta Purana." If that would be your next statement, then you should first be pretty confident of what is in the text, so that there are no surprises.

 

I also added outside of GV. Is it not true that no school outside of GV considers SB as Supreme? I am not saying that I am all knowledgeable. I am not. Every time someone corrects me, I accept my mistake. I am not saying that SB is false either. My contention is that it is interpolated and not the Supreme book. If you show something from BVP and point out my mistake, I will gladly accept that. In fact, BVP denounces any licentious behaviour. It also concludes by saying:

 

Whoever with due control over his passions and after having avowed the purpose of performing a rite on an auspicious occasion listens to this is released from the sins committed either in childhood or later in all the births.

 

One can interpret the highlighted portion to mean that there should be sexual restraint too. I will agree with that. But, my question is: is it applicable across the board to everyone?. Obviously not, as even as per SB, Kamini and Prathista asha are the 2 things hardest to overcome.

 

Has any acharya quoted from kama-sutra? Or have there at least been instuctions that, "Grihasthas should follow the kama-sutra." Simply because a text is in sanskrit does not make it of value. We can tell obscene words in sanskrit as well, that does not make them mantras.

 

Yes. Tirumular gives a set of rules a grahastha should follow while having intercourse with his wife, so that she and he can attain maximum pleasure. These rules are the same as the ones found in Kamasutra. But, I am unaware of any Vaishnava acarya who quoted that, though commentatirs like Kumbha, Samkara Misra, Vanamali Bhatta, Narayana Pandita and Krishna have. This, assuming what is written in the translation by Indologists is true. What we cannot ignore is the fact that no Vaishnava acarya has objected to the depictions of Kamasutra in the temple. Even Kanchi Paramacarya says that sex is a hindrance in attaining realization, but they don't indoctrinate ordinary people in an organized way. So, my understanding is that all acaryas consider sex to be an obstacle. But they also realize that grahasthas ae not in a poition to repress it. That is why they have given silent permission, through depictions in temples. Those repressing may not be indulging in the act of sex, but they definitely keep dreaming of it. Otherwise, they wouldn't get attracted to even lesser material pleasures like politicking. So, repression is even worse.

 

We have seen that those sannyasis who were indoctrinated against sex just fell down. Barring one or two, others are very political too.

 

Why do you consider the above argument of mine as incorrect or tangential? Is it possible for a sannyasi, who has transcended sexual desires, to get attracted to a stay in a 5 star hotel?

 

And they should be encouraged to moved forward towards Krishna, by gradually offering everything as a sacrifice to Him, ultimatley including themselves.

 

True. The key phrase is gradual. If I am taking very strong stance in this matter it is because ISKCON indoctrinates youngsters into forming negative conceptions of sex and that is not gradual.

 

Originally posted by Karthik_k:

The marriage hymns of Rg veda state that a man and a woman bound in marriage should satisy each other sexually.

 

Reply from J N Das: Which can be done through procreation.

 

I will do a detailed write up on this using the commentaries of Sayanacarya, references from Yaskacarya and the conclusions of Kapali Shastry. They have amply demonstrated that these verses clearly talk of enjoying sex as per the rules of Kamashastra. In fact, they even argue that Kamasutra itself has its basis in RV. If we are restricting sex only for procreation, then there is no enjoyment. Ramayana is meant for common grahastha. Rama and Sita enjoyed sex for several years without procreating.

 

This is another incorrect statement. Even advaiti sadhus such as Swami Shivananda of Hrishikesh have instructed their grihastha disciples to observe various levels of brahmacharya within marriage. It is actually one of his fundamental teachings.

 

I don't know about this acarya. Do they initiate grahasthas and in large numbers? If so, I am skeptical of such organizations. Such organizations, tend to place the control of the disciples' lives in the hands of the guru. Invariably, this leads to downplaying the importance of family and increasing the number of hours a disciple spends in the organization. I would always give more credence to something like Kanchi Sankara mutt, as they don't care about expanding.

 

As I told, even Paramacarya talks of overcoming sexual desires, but they never let this teaching assume the proportions of indoctrination. They make it just a passing remark. A devotee who naturally evolves to that level, grabs it and follows it. Indoctrination, on the other hand, is aimed at a neophyte who has little idea about sex.

 

[bhaktajoy]

Well...after the age of 60 one can easily transcend sex life.A lifetime of pure bhakti is enough.That's why God made old age

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

They also retain the oldest references in scriptures as well as epigraphic works.

 

This isn't true at all. There are references to brahmanas from other areas such as Puri, etc., found through the Puranas as well.

 

The difference is they both reject SB, if it contradicts the shrutis.

 

Show me a Vaishnava acharya who has rejected the Srimad Bhagavatam. The fact is the Bhagavatam does not contradict the shruti, thus there is no question of it being rejected.

 

I presume that you are referring to Sridhara Swami of Puri Sankara mutt.

 

The original Sridhara Swami had no connection with Puri Shankara Mutt. This is the usual indologists merging of multiple individuals into one.

 

Not that he quoted from VP prolifically either. Such quotes were few. He established his principles using Brahma sutras and not puranas. Puranas were always given secondary importance in Sri Vaishnava tradition.

 

This is because Ramanuja wanted to establish his system of philosophy with pramanas acceptable to other schools at his time. To Sri Vaishnavas Vishnu Purana is absolute truth and there is no a single word of untruth in it. And the songs of the Alvars are equal, if not superior to the Vedas.

 

Why else do you think no acarya ever objected to portraying Kamasutra in temple engravings?

 

The placement of erotic sculpture in temples has a specific subtle function which we will discuss in another thread, as it will go of the topic here.

 

Tonite, I will check Sri Aurobindo's commentary on them as well. I was giving Sayanacarya's interpretation.

 

Aurobindo interprets such texts as the awakening of the Kundalini, which is in line with the yoga-darshana.

 

I also added outside of GV.

 

So to you the Bhagavata Purana is a Gaudiya text? What more can be said.

 

Is it not true that no school outside of GV considers SB as Supreme?

 

Supremacy of a text is irrelevant in this discussion. The scriptures give advice on dharma. One such scripture, the Bhagavata, has been cited advising one to engage in sex only for procreation. Your response is that it is a Gaudiya book.

 

My contention is that it is interpolated and not the Supreme book.

 

The commentators have all commented on the same text of Bhagavatam, some with one additional verse, some missing one or two verses.

 

If you show something from BVP and point out my mistake, I will gladly accept that.

 

But what is your logic? On what grounds do you accept Brahma Vaivarta Purana, which indologists would consider more interpolated than the Bhagavata? And if something is pointed out from Brahma Vaivarta Purana, then perhaps that will also be an interpolated text for you?

 

One can interpret the highlighted portion to mean that there should be sexual restraint too. I will agree with that. But, my question is: is it applicable across the board to everyone?

 

It is applicable for everyone to try. No one is suggesting we all have to suddenly become detached from matter, but we should clearly know that all sense enjoyment causes suffering and ignorance (as per Yoga shastras statement). Knowing this, shouldn't we have compassion for our own selves and try to protect ourselves from future suffering and ignorance?

 

Why do you consider the above argument of mine [about fallen sannyasis]as incorrect or tangential? Is it possible for a sannyasi, who has transcended sexual desires, to get attracted to a stay in a 5 star hotel?

 

Because you assume to know the inner heart of the sannyasi (i.e. you know they have become attracted to a 5 star hotel). And you make a general statement which really has no verifiable data that can be analysed, and which you have no direct experience of except through rumour. In other words, it is really unrelevant to the topic as to whether the scriptures advise one to engage in sex for procreation or not. Further more, no one is speaking of sannyasa, but only regulated sex for procreation. Thus the topics are not at all connected. And finally, if one wants to analyze the unreliable data you have, then you should take into account all the hundreds of thousands of grihastha devotees who have followed the regulation of "no illicit sex" and see what its impact was on their consciousness and life. If you don't have such relevant data on hand, then your statement about five or six sannyasis, whom you think became attached to a luxory hotel, is just stupid.

 

If I am taking very strong stance in this matter it is because ISKCON indoctrinates youngsters into forming negative conceptions of sex and that is not gradual.

 

Sex is negative, as it is the binding force to the material world. Renouncing it is what is done gradual. (i.e. we don't need to gradually understand the negativity of it, it factually is negative). Like all mundane activities, it can be dovetailed in the service of the Lord, by raising Krishna consciouss children, and thereby the sacrifice involved purifies us of many of the negative impressions on our consciousness (karma-vasanas). Karma-vasanas are the inclination for mundane activity (utayah karma-vasanah), thus without regulation and purification through sacrifice (and samskara) we are creating a very inauspicious future for ourselves.

 

I will do a detailed write up on this using the commentaries of Sayanacarya, references from Yaskacarya and the conclusions of Kapali Shastry.

 

Kapali Shastry is a tantrik, thus his views are quite partial. He has written some very great books, but is personally responsible for single handedly remolding the entire teachings of Aurobindo from Yoga-darshana to tantra. Now their lines teachings really have little to do with yoga-darshana or aurobindo for that matter. Especially the writings of M.P. Pandit and others.

 

I don't know about this acarya. Do they initiate grahasthas and in large numbers? If so, I am skeptical of such organizations.

 

There are no initiations in Shivananda Ashram. He simply instructed his followers to live a "divine life", which included sadhana, tapas, etc. Sadhus act for the benefit of other's. Their instructions are not so that they can get some material gain.

 

As I told, even Paramacarya talks of overcoming sexual desires, but they never let this teaching assume the proportions of indoctrination.

 

This is primarily because he held a ritual seat, and his followers were not made, they were born. It is a caste based religion that does not make disciples or followers, and which has no real mission in delivering the general society from ignorance.

 

Some may be satisfied with a few rituals, once in awhile chanting gayatri (very, very rarely), doing a couple pada-pujas to the guru when he comes to town, etc., but there are other spiritual organizations whose aim is to transform society (and the individual) with the light of spiritual knowledge. Those who are ready to live the divine life will make sacrifices and by such offerings of their self, they will experience higher states of spiritual consciousness. Others may be content with performing punya-karma, attaining heaven, and just doing their "duty", which in reality just means going to the office and paying the bills.

 

If you see someone hurting themself, destroying their future and burrying themselves in ignorance, if you sit and tolerate it silently, you are performing himsa to that soul. Saints such as Prabhupada, due to their compassion for us, told us directly that our so called religious life is just leading us to hell. Some won't be able to understand this. They will think Swamiji must be having some ulterior motives in telling me this. Swamiji must not have understood the scriptures as well as I did. Swamiji was just following the dogma of his religious cult.

 

At some point we will wake up and realize it is all for our own self interest.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Well...after the age of 60 one can easily transcend sex life.A lifetime of pure bhakti is enough.That's why God made old age.

This isn't true. One does not become detached simply because the body is no longer fit to enjoy. Your attachment will be greater. This is why regulation is essential from the young age, and sadhana is essential to purify the heart.

[karthik_v]

Originally posted by J N Das:

This isn't true at all. There are references to brahmanas from other areas such as Puri, etc., found through the Puranas as well.

 

Please let me explain this one. The oldest languages in India are Sanskrit, Pali and Tamil. Of this only Sanskrit and Tamil have had continuous tradition till date. Tamil literature, both spiritual and otherwise, describes the practices of Iyers and Iyengars in detail. These have been dated to the period before the Christian era by both the theists and indologists. So, it looks strange to me that the Azhwars don't even mention SB. Other languages such as Bengali, Hindi, Telugu, Oriya etc., are of much later origin and they cannot give much information about the mores of the ancient days.

 

Show me a Vaishnava acharya who has rejected the Srimad Bhagavatam. The fact is the Bhagavatam does not contradict the shruti, thus there is no question of it being rejected.

 

I didn't say that they reject SB in toto. Only those parts that vary from vedas or agamas. I admit that I don't have exact details on hand. I can get them though. Once I do, I will share with you.

 

This is because Ramanuja wanted to establish his system of philosophy with pramanas acceptable to other schools at his time. To Sri Vaishnavas Vishnu Purana is absolute truth and there is no a single word of untruth in it. And the songs of the Alvars are equal, if not superior to the Vedas.

 

Even in the writings of other SV acaryas, when they have to establish a point, they still go by shrutis. I haven't seen them establish a point using VP or pasurams. Especially if they are debated.

 

The placement of erotic sculpture in temples has a specific subtle function which we will discuss in another thread, as it will go of the topic here.

 

That would be great. I will correct my perception, if you can show that they have a specific purpose other than education.

 

Aurobindo interprets such texts as the awakening of the Kundalini, which is in line with the yoga-darshana.

 

I think you are right. Though I can't recall the exact words, I think this is what he says. I just received a mail from a friend, a scholar in Tirumantiram and he says that Tirumular also uses sex as a very metaphoric term to signify the awakening of the kundalini. He has given a detailed explanation showing that my understanding was wrong. Much of it requires a deep knowledge of classical Tamil, so I will not post them. That means your earlier on Patanjali was correct and my understanding wrong. Since Tirumular was a disciple of Patanjali, their philosophies, though different in words, must have conveyed the same subtle principle. I take back my arguments on those three.

 

Originally posted by Karthik_v:

I also added outside of GV.

 

J N Das responds:

So to you the Bhagavata Purana is a Gaudiya text? What more can be said.

 

May be you misunderstood. I meant if any acarya outside of GV has established SB as supreme. I didn't mean SB is GV.

 

The commentators have all commented on the same text of Bhagavatam, some with one additional verse, some missing one or two verses.

 

Perhaps, we should have a detailed discussion on this. It is worth knowing what the differences are between the texts. It is quite possible that the indologists blow a few differences out of proportion. It is worth investigating.

 

But what is your logic? On what grounds do you accept Brahma Vaivarta Purana, which indologists would consider more interpolated than the Bhagavata? And if something is pointed out from Brahma Vaivarta Purana, then perhaps that will also be an interpolated text for you?

 

I didn't say that I accept something just because it is in BVP. I was just asking you if I misinterpreted anything in BVP.

 

No one is suggesting we all have to suddenly become detached from matter, but we should clearly know that all sense enjoyment causes suffering and ignorance (as per Yoga shastras statement). Knowing this, shouldn't we have compassion for our own selves and try to protect ourselves from future suffering and ignorance?

 

Perfectly valid. If it is done only out of compassion and after evaluating the level of the disciple, it is the most commendable. But, that is not the case always. It is common to find a youngster start going to ISKCON/GV and within months he will form extreme perceptions. Virtually in all cases, this doesn't last. After the initial enthusiasm is gone, they slowly dilute their stance. But, in the intervening period, they go through a lot of stress. Their family members too. Also, to be very honest, the same sannyasis who indoctrinated the young ones against sex, never indoctrinated them against making money. I find this incongruous.

 

Because you assume to know the inner heart of the sannyasi (i.e. you know they have become attracted to a 5 star hotel). And you make a general statement which really has no verifiable data that can be analysed, and which you have no direct experience of except through rumour. In other words, it is really unrelevant to the topic as to whether the scriptures advise one to engage in sex for procreation or not. Further more, no one is speaking of sannyasa, but only regulated sex for procreation. Thus the topics are not at all connected. And finally, if one wants to analyze the unreliable data you have, then you should take into account all the hundreds of thousands of grihastha devotees who have followed the regulation of "no illicit sex" and see what its impact was on their consciousness and life. If you don't have such relevant data on hand, then your statement about five or six sannyasis, whom you think became attached to a luxory hotel, is just stupid.

 

I wouldn't want to discuss this in an open forum. May be I can email you with details I would be really, really surprised to find hundreds of thousands of grihastha devotees who have followed the regulation of "no illicit sex" in ISKCON. ISKCON has faced one of the highest divorce rates, doesn't have a strong family base. Just look at the ISKCON temples in the USA. How many second generation American devotees do you find. Hardly any. If really the experiment of grihastha devotees who have followed the regulation of "no illicit sex" had worked, we should find many second generation American devotees in the congregation, as SP had many American grahastha devotees here. Virtually all of the congregation is made up of Indians. The only americans are the old timers. there is an occasional college kid though.

 

Kapali Shastry is a tantrik, thus his views are quite partial. He has written some very great books, but is personally responsible for single handedly remolding the entire teachings of Aurobindo from Yoga-darshana to tantra. Now their lines teachings really have little to do with yoga-darshana or aurobindo for that matter. Especially the writings of M.P. Pandit and others.

 

Your point is valid. Accepted.

 

This is primarily because he held a ritual seat, and his followers were not made, they were born. It is a caste based religion that does not make disciples or followers, and which has no real mission in delivering the general society from ignorance.

 

That depends on our world view. May be everyone cannot be delivered with the same medicine Normally paramacarya doesn't bother to criticize other organizations, but once he responded to a pointed question about Arya samaj's initiation process. He said that those things are very short-lived. He said that your birth is due to your karma and that anyone cannot be initiated. He said that even if you do enthusiastically, most people will go back to their old ways. I don't agree with him that birth alone decides your varna, but his general criticism seems valid when we see that so many problems have afflicted ISKCON and so many fell down. A follower of Sankara mutt may ask us: "What is the big deal in SP initiating so many unqualified people? It hardly lasted a decade? While it made headlines in the 60s, now the very mention of ISKCON is associated with scandals. Even most of the initiated have fallen down. On the other hand, traditional organizations like Sankara mutt bring about a steady change. If not change, they remain forever for those who are really qualified to attain liberation". We may not have a counter to that.

 

They will think Swamiji must be having some ulterior motives in telling me this. Swamiji must not have understood the scriptures as well as I did. Swamiji was just following the dogma of his religious cult.

 

I don't think that way at all. Whatever little I have gained spiritually due to the mercy of SP. But, I have grave reservations on some points - that is it.

[BVI]

I starting reading this thread and felt I should offer my help. It seems some of you are not sure of the difference between spiritual and material sex. Of course, without knowing the difference practically it is not possible to penetrate this mystery.

 

I have personally experienced and seen much confusion on this topic over the years. It is unfortunate because this is really something people need to understand for their ultimate welfare. I really want everyone to understand this properly and become happy.

 

The only way to really understand this subject is to have the experience. But for those of you who have not yet come to this stage of realization, I can offer some insight, if you will allow me.

 

What are my qualifications to speak on this subject? A little scholarship and a little experience. Not much of either. I am positive there are greater scholars, and those with greater experience than me. To find someone with both scholarship and experience (realization) is rare, and then to find someone willing to share with you is even rarer.

 

Once you have an experience you want to tell everyone. I really want to share the beautiful realizations given to me, but the reality is that I can not speak these things to ordinary people, even if I desire it. To paraphrase Mahaprabhu, who says, "My mind is not my own. Even if I want to look into the face of a renunciant who secretly speaks with women, I cannot do it."

 

So it is like that in the sense that the Supersoul directs who and when to speak these confidential topics to. This knowledge is the topmost wealth and I am just like a banker, the money deposited with me by my Master is not my property to give freely, but only to those They desire.

 

I try and try and only rarely do I come across one who can differentiate pearls from fecal matter. Most people are far too envious to share this with. Krishna explains this dynamic to Arjuna explaining that He is revealing confidential knowledge because he is a non-envious friend. So this forum is a way that maybe I can share someting with you, or maybe not. But let's give it a try anyway. I am game.

 

Of course, some people are more shameless than others, and "kiss and tell" is definitely not always appreciated. But to philosophically understand the real situation or difference between the two (material and spiritual sex) is certainly the bona fide endeavor and mercy of the acaryas beginning with Srila Madhavendra Puri, as well as, Jayadev Gosvami, Bilvamangala Thakura, Lord Caitanya, Rupa Gosvami, Krishna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami, Visvanatha Chakrabarti Thakur and others.

 

Adi rasa is a very confidential and esoteric subject that deserves a thorough explanation for the purpose of enlightening and enlivening the fallen souls to their original constitutional position, for those who are attracted in that way. Some will naturally be averse to this rasa and should even avoid it, depending upon their eternal relationship with the Lord.

 

I will remain anonymous for these discussions because my material situation really has nothing to do this subject and frankly I don't want the attention, though I would like to be of service if possible.

 

I see so many devotees who are misinformed, yet attracted, and struggling with misconceptions, embarrassment, and impropriety as they try to approach this topic. It certainly is a razor's edge. We have to be careful and respectful, but not necessarily silent. It is fire and we need to remain the proper distance so that we get the benefit of it without getting too close for comfort.

 

Actually the way to approach this or any other spiritual topic is through submissive sincere inquiry from a realized soul who has seen the truth of the topic of your concern (tattva darsinah). To paraphrase Srila Prabhupada, who explains that such a person is guru "Who has seen Krishna. Just like Arjuna. Those who have seen Krishna. Make them guru."

 

I know what you are going to say next. "So you are saying that you have seen Krishna, had spiritual sex with Him, and that makes you a guru, right?"

 

I will honestly state the facts as I understand them to be:

 

1) I had darshan of Srimati Radharani and Lord Krishna.

2) The darshan took place in my original spiritual body, not the physical body I reside in at this time.

3) I was engaged in Srimati Radharani's confidential service.

4) This happened on two more occassions since then.

5) On the last occassion I also had darshan of Mahaprabhu after witnessing Radha-Madhava in golden forms embracing and combining, leaving only Gaura-Govinda remaining (without peacock feather).

 

If that makes me a guru, then I am a guru. I don't claim to be a guru. I am claiming to have been given the above experiences, and I can share whatever realizations I have had as a result of those experiences. I am Srimati Radharani's maidservant. That was revealed to me. She called me by my name, which ends with "Manjari".

 

Just consider me a kind of messenger or servant who was given something most valuable to share with you. That doesn't make me great, it only demonstrates the greatness of my most-merciful master, who has given the highest thing to the lowest rascal. She knows I am a blabber-mouth, so I think She is being merciful to you (knowing that I am terrible at keeping secrets).

 

If a dirty poor man is given the greatest diamond worth more than all the wealth of the universe, we call him "rich", even though he may look, act, smell, and think like a dirty and poor man. Bottom line is that he has been given the greatest jewel, and that is not even his greatness, it is the greatness of the person who gave it to him out of their causeless mercy.

 

Externals are external are externals. There is no material impediments to independent bhakti who can bestow the highest upon the lowest. I know I am a dirty rascal, but if you have faith in Srila Prabhupada, who said, "According to material estimation one may be rascal number one, STILL he can be guru." then you may benefit from my experience.

 

Here you can only judge me by what I write on my experiences and the philosophy, not by my social, economic or political appearance, which certainly is deceiving and distracting causing those around me to mostly be unable to benefit from my experience. "A sadhu the world over, but never in your home town."

 

But I must add, I am not up for scientific analysis, and I don't want to argue. The process is based on inquiry with submission. Only by that process can one benefit. If someone has a sincere doubt or question then I will try to answer it for you. That is all I can promise. That is the process and the culture I will adhere to.

 

If you agree not to challenge and to ask relevant spiritual questions, then I will try to clear your doubts. That is all. I can give you siksha if you want and ask for it, but not diksha. That is my rule.

 

The way to serve me is to help Srila Prabhupada save the world by rendering service to his movement in the best way you know how, utilizing everything you have and know to the best of your ability.

 

If you are here in this forum you are probably already doing that, so I will consider you have already paid me for my service, and I am your ready and willing servant. Ask me anything you like.

 

Of course, I am wondering how you will receive this overt offer of guidance. "Don't disturb the ignorant" says Lord Krishna, but His servants think otherwise. I don't want to disturb anyone, but it disturbs me more to see people being misguided, so that has moved me to project myself into your environment.

 

Please just try to understand the truth by approaching with submission, inquiries and service, and you will someday soon have your own diamond-like experiences to share with others less fortunate than you. I can share my jewels with you, but only if you act like a human. Religion is meant for the human beings not for the swine.

 

Your Servant

[bhaktajoy]

Dear BVI,

Interesting!

Could you please tell us more about your experiences with Radhe and Krsna?

 

God bless u.

[bhaktajoy]

About sex life I think it is pretty much clear that without true Sadhana it is not possible to overcome lust and experience spiritual ectasy.Only when we associate with Radhe and Krsna as their humble maidservants,by their grace we overcome all obstacles of conditioned life.

 

BVI Prabhuji thank you very much for coming among us and joining us.It's all your mercy we are grateful and indebted

[Bhaktavasya]

BVI; what ARE your views on sex in the

 

spiritual world?

 

[This message has been edited by Bhaktavasya (edited 05-26-2002).]

[Dharma]

Have you ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead? It is quite interesting and the posts brought it to mind. It deals with helping a soul not to reincarnate or become a spirit and upon the time leading to death and following death the physical body of the deceased is surrounded and his friend coaches him. Anyway an interesting journey is outlined. It has been many years since I read it, but here is the theme of part of it.

 

On one level he perceives that he is being chased by demons from his past thoughts and deeds. In that dimension all of the people in the world who are having sex can be seen by the gods. As he runs through this realm there is great temptataion to escape these demons jump into a "womb door" or other created by one of the couples and take birth again. It is the job of those around him to persuade him not to do this.

 

Also I wanted to ad that for quite a few years fasting & Brahmacharya were part of the practice for some of the American devotees of my teacher. This is not the easiest thing as we are not a particularly sexually repressed society as in other countries.

 

A monk of my teacher taught us to make use of that energy. It can be used for fasting or any other desire as well. If you battle a primal urge through shear will power it only leads to reformation and sometimes some psychological damage or obsession some other area of life is bound to crack. Couple that with many of the sadhanas at the start may bring strong urges and tremendous physical vitality and it is inevitable if not taught to deal desire that you can experience some difficulties that may lead to tremendous guilt or self condemnation or even scandel within a group. But if you transform the desire and make use of it rather than having it make use of you it is possible to go many days without food, sleep, and you are not a slave to sexual urges.

 

He used the example of all day having a craving for ice cream. It is all you thought about all day. Tremendous energy is built around the thinking of it-the craving. When you get off work you go to great lengths to drive across town to the ice cream store. As you enter the store you see the people eating and you salivate in empathy. You are now at a crossroads with this desire.

 

You can enter the store and eat the ice cream and lose energy, or you can stay with the desire-experiencing it fully and gain energy. Any time a desire is fulfilled it you will lose energy until another desire comes to you-think about the let down after buying that new car or after sex or a big meal you were so hungry for. The sadness of a realized dream. There is a let down making it necessary to entertain another desire.

 

If you stand there and experience it fully through the others eating it-let the desire just burn. It will transform to bliss-a powerful spiritual energy. Anything experienced fully without fulfillment tends to do this. After some time of this practice not so much craving will come to you and there will be alot more energy all around.

 

So much of the enrgy goes in to entertaining desire and when it is fulfilled you lose all of it. Kind of like letting the air out of a balloon.

 

I think it is kind of a cruelty to just say to your kids, "Don't have sex." or to overweight people, "You are driving up our health care costs-stop eating so much." without giving them some way of processing craving or desire or some insights into the dynamics of desire. There is alot more to it that I have not posted, and certainly much more that I do not know at all. Yet I was grateful that someone took the time to help out with what seemed an illogical and difficult request at the time. So much was made possible through that practice and study of desire.

 

It is my understanding that at one time in India the young were schooled on this-on dealing with response rather than reaction to the primal urges of sex and food. The males married later in life and there was a philosophy that your natural live would be 4 times the age you were at your first sexual encounter.

 

[This message has been edited by Dharma (edited 05-26-2002).]

[theist]

 

BVI has kindly offered to be our guru.

If you agree not to challenge and to ask relevant spiritual questions, then I will try to clear your doubts. That is all. I can give you siksha if you want and ask for it, but not diksha. That is my rule.

 

The way to serve me is to help Srila Prabhupada save the world by rendering service to his movement in the best way you know how, utilizing everything you have and know to the best of your ability.

 

I am sure that Prabhupada's disciples and followers are pleased that you feel served by their service to their guru.I am also sure they hope Krsna feels served as well.

 

I a not ready to submit yet BVIji, so you may not want to answer my question.I would of course respect your decision on that.

 

My question is:What do you have to add to the given realizations by the previous Acarya's?Have you been sent with new revelations?

 

basic theist

 

[Amara_dasa]

Lust and sex are not only material manifestations. There is also spiritual lust and sex. Actually, the material sex we are familiar with in this material world is simply a reflection of the spiritual sex. It could not have any existence otherwise. The spirit soul alone has no sexual desire, but when he is under the control of Maha-maya he experiences material lust, and when he is under the control of Yoga-maya he experiences spiritual lust. This is best explained by Srila Prabhupada in his comments on the Kama-gayatri mantra:

 

"Actually lust and sex are there in spiritual life, but when the spirit soul is embodied in material elements, that spiritual urge is expressed through the material body and is therefore pervertedly reflected. When one actually becomes conversant in the science of Krsna consciousness, he can understand that his material desire for sex is abominable, whereas spiritual sex is desirable."

 

(Teachings of Lord Caitanya, p. 323)

[BVI]

Originally posted by theist:

My question is:What do you have to add to the given realizations by the previous Acarya's? Have you been sent with new revelations?

basic theist

The answer is "Yes.No." and "Maybe."

 

"Yes" in the sense that what I experienced was not specificially mentioned in the writings of my previous acaryas, though I have not read everything by them, so it may be there somewhere. What I experienced was within the revealed categories of possible experiences, but I have yet to see this particular variety of experience listed or directly revealed.

 

"No", in the sense that I realize that I am certainly not the first or last to have had my particular experience and that the acaryas certainly were not without such experiences. I have only found one other person who had a similar experience exactly on the lines of my own.

 

I am inclined to conclude, until I receive further instructions, that in the better judgement of my previous acaryas such things are not essential and are highly confidential and subject to cause misunderstandings and errors on the part of neophytes. I see how they have given everything one needs to know to come to the platform of having your own experience and highly confidential ones like the one I had. They have given the path and the goal. There is absolultely nothing lacking in their teachings. Everything one requires to achieve perfection is in Srila Prabhupada's teachings. That I can say for sure.

 

"Maybe", in the sense that I am a blabber-mouth and am likely to tell you anyway. I might end up breeching confidence, though factually no one told me not to tell. I may receive some instruction to reveal this experience, and will be happy to do so at that time. So let us see how things go.

 

The bottom line is that whatever happened to me completely confirmed the validity of the teachings of all our acaryas. So I really have nothing new to offer you. All I can hopefully do is guide some of you who are off the track in a few places or to clear doubts about some of the points in understanding the process and the goal.

 

Thank you for your nice question. I appreciate your reluctance to blindly surrender. Blind following is condemned. It is appropriate that you are testing me by this question. I seriously had to grapple with this question after my experience, as to whether or not I should reveal it as something new. Of course, it is not new, but it seemed inappropriate after considering that my previous masters did not reveal such. They have a mission and a strategy and I don't want to tamper with that.

 

That you asked me this question is a sign to me that Radharani has arranged this meeting place with all of you. I am very happy with you all and your kindly welcoming me here and letting me serve you by remembering my wonderful gift. I hope it helps you better understand the situation.

 

Your Servant

 

[BVI]

Originally posted by bhaktajoy:

Dear BVI,

Interesting!

Could you please tell us more about your experiences with Radhe and Krsna?

 

God bless u.

Thank you for your blessings Bhaktajoy.

 

First I can say that Srimati Radharani is the most compassionate and merciful. Her kindness and mercy is beyond comprehension, as is Her love for Krishna. She is prepared to do anything to please Him, and She knows best how to please Him. No one else can satisfy Him. During my brief moments of serving Her, I was fixated or focused on Her. Krishna was there, but my consciousness was amazingly drawn to Her. Even while I was personally serving Krishna on Her order, I was focused on Her. I found a verse after this experience by Srila Prabhodhananda Sarasvati Thakura that best expresses this attachment to Radharani. It was from Radha Rasa Sudha Nidhi, and it was explaining how a manjari was dancing with Krishna in the rasa dance, but her mind was fixed on the footprints previously made on the rasa mandala by her queen Srimati Radharani. In other words the manjaris are more interested in Radharani than Krishna, even when they are dancing with Him or serving Him in intimate situations. It is a very beautiful thing to be attached to Radharani's lotus feet.

 

 

Your Servant

 

[BVI]

Originally posted by bhaktajoy:

About sex life I think it is pretty much clear that without true Sadhana it is not possible to overcome lust and experience spiritual ectasy.Only when we associate with Radhe and Krsna as their humble maidservants,by their grace we overcome all obstacles of conditioned life.

 

BVI Prabhuji thank you very much for coming among us and joining us.It's all your mercy we are grateful and indebted

 

Thank you for the welcome.

 

Nasta prayeshu abhadreshu nityam bhagavata sevaya

 

This is more or less the verse that expresses your statements. This is desribing the stage of self-realization which begins truly at the stage of bhava, when almost all anarthas are practically destroyed, but some remain.

 

This is the meaning of being practically liberated at the stage of bhava, or jivan mukta (situated in the material body yet liberated). One can see maya and generally does not become victimized by maya, though fall down is possible from the bhava platform. Perfectional stage is prema. Bhava is the result of sadhana. Sadhana is meant to take one to bhava-bhakti, and then to prema-bhakti.

 

It is not that you become a manjari and directly serve Radharani and then you are free from condition life. You must become free and then you can become a manjari. Generally, before hitting Goloka you will cross Brahmajyoti and be already liberated by offenseless chanting. Of course, it can all happen simultaneously, and that is real causeless mercy. Like a flash of lightning everything is revealed and all impurities of the subtle body ("all that is troublesome to the heart") are practically destroyed.

 

Those impurities means thoughts, feelings, desires, self-conceptions, material conceptions of life and so on that pollute the ego, mind and intelligence (subtle body). The power of the spiritual impression (samskara) is so great that all lower tastes and conceptions are practically destroyed.

 

One factually realizes he is not the body, and positively realizes his spiritual body. That spiritual experience destroys the false ego, purifies the intelligence, thoughts get focused greedily on relishing that again, feelings of love and attachment for the object of love awaken, and desire is to serve and please the object of love. Thus the entire subtle body is spirtually transformed as one begins to identify with his newly realized spiritual body, even in external consciousness.

 

The siddha pranali advocates try to artificially trick the intelligence into identify with a new spiritual identity through imaginative raganuga sadhana types of seva, prior to the stage of bhava when it really happens. This is not enough of an impression to purify the intellgence and false ego to control the mind. The natural path is to serve and please the Lord and reach the stage of Bhava by the causeless mercy of Guru and Krishna. That is the process advocated by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada, and the one that works. Well, at least it worked for this fallen soul by their blessings.

 

Constant engagement in bhajan and specifically here, bhagavat seva, is required to get to that point. tesam satata yuktanam bhajatam priti purvakam. By constant engagement in bhajan with affection (priti) and full of eagerness and desire (purva kama), then Krishna gives intelligence by which to advance in bhakti (dadami buddhi yogam tam), and come to Him (yena mam upayanti te).

 

More correctly, Krishna comes to you being attracted by the fragrant scent of the flower of your awakened bhava. "Don't try to see Krishna, but act in such a way that Krishna wants to see you." (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur).

 

We cannot actually approach Krishna by our own endeavor, even by offenseless chanting. Yes, that will only bring you to the Brahmajyoti. To go further you require the causless mercy of the Hladini Shakti to decend upon you and reveal your spiritual identity. This is explained by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

Factually Krishna is responding to the appearance of Radharani who has come into your heart to initiate you into your siddha svarupa, or eternal spiritually perfected body. Wherever She goes, He is soon to follow. By associating and serving Radharani, one becomes attractive to Krishna. Like crystal we become like our associates.

 

So the secret here is to associate with Radharani, worship the dust of Her lotus feet, take shelter in Her abode of Vrindavan, and associate with Her associates. Without doing this you will never see Krishna.

 

Of course, prior to this process, one should take shelter of the lotus feet of Krishna, and by His mercy one's attactment to Krishna will be transferred to the lotus feet of Srimati Radharani, but not always, only if one desires.

 

Some are more attached to Krishna, and that is perfectly fine. Some are equally attached to Both, and some more to Radharani. It is a matter of personal preference. There is no right or wrong.

 

I hope this helps someone.

 

Your Servant

 

[BVI]

Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:

BVI; what ARE your views on sex in the

 

spiritual world?

 

[This message has been edited by Bhaktavasya (edited 05-26-2002).]

A very big question Bhaktavasya Prabhu!

 

First let me say that contrary to popular belief there is sex in the spiritual world. This is Lord Caitanya's greatest contribution to the field of religious thought according to Srila Prabhupada. That one can have sex with the Lord. No one has ever revealed such a wonderful concept before.

 

Sex in the spiritual world is the perfection of love. It is the most beautiful thing.

 

Actually no one in this material world has ever even had sex, real sex that is. Everyone here is getting cheated by Maya with fake sex.

 

The sex here and there is the same in form, more or less, only that they really know how to do it there. Here no one really knows how to even imitate the spiritual form of sex. They are all very expert in the spiritual world. Material sex is all amatuer stuff.

 

So material sex is form without substance. Like the reflection of a material body in a mirror, the reflection looks the same, the form is the same. But the reflection does not have a body temperature of 98.6 F for example. It has no substance.

 

Let's get real basic here...a man with a penis inserts it into a woman's vagina. So that form of sex is the same, it is going on materially and spiritually. I want everyone to understand the reality very clearly. Sorry to be graphic, but beating around the bush tends to mullify concepts and create misconceptions.

 

Radha and Krishna and the gopis are all masters of the kama sutras. They enjoy all the possible combinations and permutations of those sexual acts described therein.

 

Now the difference is in the substance. They are using spiritual bodies and materially all you have to work with is the material body. The substance of spiritual sex is sat-cit-ananda, whereas material sex is based on the material body of asat, acit, and nirananda. That is why real spiritual sex causes bliss (ananda) and material sex causes suffering (nirananda).

 

So I say, no one really even knows what real sex is like. The spiritual sex is the original real variety (adi rasa), and Maya is cheating everyone into thinking that they are enjoying the real valuable sex, when they are only really experiencing the reflection which causes suffering.

 

Everyone is proud of their miserly sex life, which would be laughable to anybody who knows what real spiritual sex is like, except for the fact that one is more moved to cry for the pitiable material condition of the fallen soul than laugh. There is nothing here to be proud of, only everything to be embarrassed and ashamed of. This is a very lowly and fallen platform of existence.

 

One who intelligently sees through the illusion of material sex and thus gives up the endeavor for it has a chance to realize the eternal blissful reality of spiritual sex life in the spiritual realm. It is worth it.

 

All we have to give up is our illusion. Once we go beyond illusion we can see everything in its proper perspective. shunyayitam jagat sarvam. Everything in this material world is vacant, void, empty, tasteless, dry, nasty, lifeless, and pitiable.

 

If we are attracted to anything of this world we are under the illusory energy of Maya. Maya is making a fool and an ass out of the conditioned soul. She is playing everyone for a sucker. When you realize how you have been cheated then you will surely spit at the thought of material sex life and what a nasty thing and dirty trick it is. No substance. No ananda.

 

Your Servant

 

 

[This message has been edited by BVI (edited 05-27-2002).]

[Prema108]

BVIji,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

I appreciate your willingness to act as siksa here for those of us interested in the topic and your insights. However, I'm concerned whenvever someone wants to speak with authority, and yet does so "secretly". Why do you feel the need to take such a measure?

Secondly, you apparently consider yourself a Vaisnava. Can you kindly tell us who your guru is? Also, why do you have a "rule" for yourself that you refuse to offer diksa? Are you a sanyassi yourself?

Again, I want you to understand that I have read and can appreciate what you have said thus far. I have had an experience wherein I saw Her Lotus Feet, nothing more. So please keep this in mind when you reply.

 

Prema

[BVI]

Originally posted by Prema108:

BVIji,

Please accept my humble obeisances.

I appreciate your willingness to act as siksa here for those of us interested in the topic and your insights. However, I'm concerned whenvever someone wants to speak with authority, and yet does so "secretly". Why do you feel the need to take such a measure?

Secondly, you apparently consider yourself a Vaisnava. Can you kindly tell us who your guru is? Also, why do you have a "rule" for yourself that you refuse to offer diksa? Are you a sanyassi yourself?

Again, I want you to understand that I have read and can appreciate what you have said thus far. I have had an experience wherein I saw Her Lotus Feet, nothing more. So please keep this in mind when you reply.

 

Prema

Secretly only in the sense that my material identity is being left out of the discussion. This is for your benefit. If you were to know many things about me, especially my life prior to receiving Radharani's mercy, it would probably distract most. My precedent is Jada Bharat or the Avanti Brahmana, I can't recall just now, who left for meditation in an asrama where he was careful not to reveal his past life and identity. This becomes an obstacle for hearing and chanting. One should not refer to a devotees past life and one should not dwell on one's past activities but remain absorbed in glorifying Krishna in the present moment. This is for mutual protection. I am coming in the line of Srila Prabhupada. I am not identifying myself with the varnasrama system. I only identify myself as the eternal maidservant of Srimati Radharani's lotus feet who is under the guidance of the maidservants headed by Sri Rupa Manjari. In Gaura-lila I am an eternal servant of the servants of Srila Prabhupada. Another reason is that I have a completely different, yet connected, mission to execute here, and I don't believe that publicly identifying myself as self-realized and a propounder of rasa-tattva is going to be favorable to achieving success in that service due to the audience I am preaching to. Maybe someday I will be able to come forward, if is will serve any beneficial purpose, and maybe someday I will give diksha. For now, anyway, it will remain like this. You can still get the knowledge from me, and I am not requesting anything of you except to serve Srila Prabhupada's mission. For me right now this is an experiment. I want to see how things go and how yo all actually benefit from this type of presentation. Generally, I have found, in my day-to-day life it is nearly impossible to find someone to share this with. Personal identities and physical association generally are not conducive for such discussions. I am finding a certain freedom of expression here, and by my nature I prefer to express myself in writing anyway. So please bear with me and try to extract the essence. There are many songs from anonymous Vaishnava poets and they can also be sung as long as they are not deviated from the philosophy. I am not a Vaishnava. I am a fallen soul who has received a most valuable gift. I am not an example of achieving perfection through excellent adherance to sadhana, though I made the attempt. I never did anything I am aware of to receive the mercy I was given. It is all the glory of my most merciful Queen, who kindly engaged me in Her most wonderful service.

 

Your Servant

[gopal]

Its Holiness BVI brings to mind a remarkable person I knew years ago, when hitchhiking through a yoga commune. At that time he was only Jesus, and spent the evening wooing my friend and I with his wonders, but he never succeeded in getting to the stage of extending his teachings to us in the bedroom.

Years later I saw him at Rathayatra , and he had advanced to gopihood. I do not know which gopi he was, but there were many like him, long haired, some bearded, dressed in saris and ankle bells. I am sorry I did not take him seriously when he was Jesus. I could have been one of his first disciples and would have been able to say "I knew him when".

[abhi_the_great]

BVJ,

As far as the philosophy you espouse, everything is in line and appealing. Thankyou for sharing your understandings and experiences. Your anonimity is just fine, if you feel so.

 

Cheers

Abhi