sex in the spiritual world?

[BVI]

Originally posted by gopal:

Its Holiness BVI brings to mind a remarkable person I knew years ago, when hitchhiking through a yoga commune. At that time he was only Jesus, and spent the evening wooing my friend and I with his wonders, but he never succeeded in getting to the stage of extending his teachings to us in the bedroom.

Years later I saw him at Rathayatra , and he had advanced to gopihood. I do not know which gopi he was, but there were many like him, long haired, some bearded, dressed in saris and ankle bells. I am sorry I did not take him seriously when he was Jesus. I could have been one of his first disciples and would have been able to say "I knew him when".

For the record, I do not wear saris, anklebells or sport long hair or a beard. I never considered myself Jesus or any other spiritual personality. My spiritual name does not appear in any of our acaryas writings, so I am certainly not an eternally liberated soul or an associate of any note or importance. I just consider that I got lucky. I really am not a deserving person.

 

Your Servant

[BVI]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

BVJ,

As far as the philosophy you espouse, everything is in line and appealing. Thankyou for sharing your understandings and experiences. Your anonimity is just fine, if you feel so.

 

Cheers

Abhi

Thank you Abhi, you are greatly generous. It feels great to be amongst humans.

 

Your Servant

[BVI]

A very important part of Srila Prabhupada's mission...

 

Calcutta

18 January, 1977

77-01-18

To All Iskcon Temple Presidents,

Please accept my blessings. Now you must arrange in each temple there must be sufficient stock of prasadam for distribution. You can keep first class cooks, two or three, and they should be always engaged. Whenever any guest comes, he must get prasada. This arrangement must be made, that the cooks prepare ten-twenty servings at a time, of puris and subji, and you can add halava and pakoras, and the visitors must be supplied immediately. Whenever a gentleman comes, he must be served. As the twenty servings are being distributed, immediately the cooks prepare another twenty servings and store it. At the end of the day, if no one comes, our own men will take, so there is no loss. You cannot say, ``it is finished,'' ``it is not cooked yet,'' ``there is no supply for cooking'' etc. This must be enforced rigidly. The temple is managed by Srimati Radharani, Laksmiji; so why should there be want? Our philosophy is, if anyone comes, let him take prasada, chant Hare Krsna and be happy. Everything is being supplied by Krsna, Krsna is not poor, so why we should deny them? This should be done at any cost. There is no difficulty, it simply requires nice management. At the end of the day you may sell or give away. If we believe that Krsna is providing and maintaining everyone, then why should we be misers? This means losing faith in Krsna, and thinking that we are the doers and suppliers. We are confident Krsna will supply! Let the whole world come , we can feed them. So please do this nicely, begin at once.

Hoping this meets you all in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

ACBS/rds

 

Letter to: All Iskcon Temple Presidents -- Calcutta 18 January, 1977

 

 

[BVI]

Another important part of SP's mission...

 

Prabhupada: The politician’s business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they’ll give up their home and go to the forest. Very [pitiful]… Unless they take to Kåñëa consciousness, they’ll not be saved. The varnasrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varnasrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brahmana; one class, ksatriya; one class, vaisya; and one class, sudra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the sudras

…So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varnasrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely.

…But if you show that you are actually doing something ideal, then they will appreciate. Make a small unit of community and show ideal life, not idle life. Ideal life.

— Morning Walk

Vrndavana 12 March 1974

 

 

[BVI]

Yet another important part of Srila Prabhupada's mission...

 

Prabhupäda: Village... Just like you acquire some land. That you will get. It is not very... Is it difficult?

Guest (2): No, sir.

Prabhupäda: Just we are doing so many places. So you produce your own food grains, not for making money but just for feeding yourself and the animals, cows. Keep cows, as many cows as possible, and produce, till the ground, field, and make water supply arrangement. If the investment is required, we shall do that. You have no worry about investment. We shall bring money from anywhere. But the work must be done very nicely. There must be good arrangement for water supply and for plowing and keeping the cows in order. Then you get sufficient milk, sufficient food grains and produce your own cloth. The girls and ladies, they can spine (spin) thread, and from the thread you make cloth, handlooms. So your first necessities of life, eating, and make little cottage, sleeping... And if you want sex, get yourself married, live peacefully. And when you are there you can defend yourself. So the first necessity is how to eat and how to cover. That you have to provide. That is not difficult. You can do it. And then you become peaceful, no anxiety for your maintenance. And then cultivate this spiritual knowledge the same way. Have a temple there. Have... Go on chanting, offering prasädam. You have got your food grains. Don’t be dependent on anyone else. Become self-independent. And don’t be after money. Simply produce your bare necessities of life. Keep yourself fit, strong. And chant Hare Kåñëa, read book. Then you’ll grow strong. Is there any difficulty?

 

Room Conversation -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius

 

 

 

[BVI]

Caitanya Mahaprabhu, therefore, said, "No, no, it is all right, but it is

very difficult now." He is practical. Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the...Namo

maha-vadanyaya krsna-prema-pradaya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. He is studied by

Rupa Gosvami as the most munificent avatara, incarnation. There are many

incarnation, but He's the most munificent, vadanya, the supreme

charitable. Why? Krsna-prema-pradaya te. He is distributing love of Krsna

like anything. Krsna-prema-pradaya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. One cannot

understand Krsna.

 

manusyanam sahasresu

kascid yatati siddhaye

yatatam api siddhanam

kascin mam vetti tattvatah

[bg. 7.3]

 

To understand Krsna is very, very difficult. Out of many, many millions of

person, one tries for making his life successful. And out of many, many

such successful, yatatam api siddhanam [bg. 7.3], one who has attained

siddhi, such person, may... One may understand Krsna. So Krsna, to

understand... So first of all, we cannot understand Krsna. Then what is

the, where is the question of love of Krsna? If you do not understand

somebody, how you can love him? Love is far, far away. But Caitanya

Mahaprabhu is so kind that He is distributing krsna-prema: "Take, anyone.

Come on." Krsna-prema-pradaya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. So therefore Caitanya

Mahaprabhu is very practical, that "I want to give krsna-prema. One should

be ecstatic, emotional in krsna-prema. One shall cry for Krsna." And He

taught everyone by His practical example how He was mad after Krsna.

Govinda-virahena me. Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. This is

krsna-prema: without Krsna, one should see everything vacant. This is

Radharani's prema.

 

But that is not possible for ordinary human being. It might be possible for

Caitanya Mahaprabhu and few devotees. Just like His immediate disciples,

the Six Gosvamis, they were also following the same principle. In the

Vrndavana the Six Gosvamis used to live. But they were seeking Krsna,

becoming mad.

 

he radhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-suno kutah

sri-govardhana-kalpa-padapa-tale kalindi-vane kutah

ghosantav iti sarvato vraja-pure khedair maha-vihvalau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

So they were mad after Krsna: "Where is Krsna?" They never said, "We have

seen Krsna." And Caitanya Mahaprabhu also, He said, "I was dreaming of

Krsna, and why you wake Me? I have lost the chance." In this way they were

making bhajana. This is called viraha-bhajana, viraha-bhajana, separation.

That is very recommended process. So we should be awakened, awaken our

consciousness, Krsna consciousness, in such a way that being separated

from Krsna, we shall become mad after Him. This is called krsna-prema.

That prema was being distributed by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. And He is still

distributing.

 

So how this prema can be awakened easily, that has been recommended by Sri

Caitanya Mahaprabhu, quoting from Lord Brahma's prayer to Krsna, jnane

prayasam udapasya namanta eva. Don't try to understand Krsna by your tiny

knowledge. We are imperfect. How we can speculate on Krsna? That is not...

Because there are certain persons, jnanis, they want to know. Just like

theosophists. They want to know the Absolute Truth by speculation. But

that is not possible.

 

athapi te deva padambuja-dvaya-

prasada-lesanugrhita eva hi

janati tattvam bhagavan-mahimno

na canya eko 'pi ciram vicinvan

[sB 10.14.29]

 

Ciram, for many, many years, if you speculate, you cannot understand

Krsna. You have to receive the mercy of Krsna through the spiritual

master. Then it is possible. That is recommended by Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhir ye prayaso 'jita. Krsna's

another name is Ajita; you cannot conquer Him. When Krsna was present, He

had to fight with so many demons, but nobody could conquer Him. That is

the history. He conquered everyone, but nobody could conquer Him. He is

conquered by His devotee only. That's all. Therefore His name is Ajita.

Ajita. If you want to conquer over Ajita, then you simply... Caitanya

Mahaprabhu says that "Don't speculate." Sthane sthitah... Jnane prayasam

udapasya namanta eva. Be submissive: "Krsna, I am very poor. Krsna, I have

no means to understand You. So if You kindly be merciful upon me, then I

can understand something about You." Surrender. That is wanted. Krsna is

very merciful as soon as He sees that somebody is surrendered.

 

srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah

punya-sravana-kirtanah

hrdy antah-stho hy abhadrani

vidhunoti suhrt-satam

[sB 1.2.17]

 

If we... This is the process. If we hear about Krsna...Sthane sthitah

sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. You remain in your position. Don't change.

Either you are brahmana or sudra or grhastha or sannyasi, it doesn't

matter. But you hear about Krsna. This is the process. This is the

first-class process.

 

So we are opening hundreds and thousands... Not thousands, we have opened

about 102 centers all over the world. But we want to open thousands. But

we are in need of assistance. But nobody is coming. Anyway, the Europeans,

Americans, some of them have joined. Still, we required many thousands

because Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission is prthivite ache yata nagaradi

grama: He wants to spread this Krsna consciousness movement not in this

city or that city but nagaradi grama. Just like here we have opened a

center in Gandhigram. But in Bombay such hundreds and thousands centers

can be opened. It is so big city. Similarly, there are other cities. It is

required. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission.

 

prthivite ache yata nagaradi grama

sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama

 

And that is the duty of the Indians, bharata-vasi. That is also Caitanya

Mahaprabhu's desire.

 

bharata-bhumite haila manusya-janma yara

janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara

[Cc. Adi 9.41]

 

This Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mercy, krsna-prema distribution, is the best,

topmost para-upakara, welfare activity. Therefore every Indian should

understand the philosophy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu or the philosophy of

Krsna, Krsna consciousness, the same philosophy. Krsna says His philosophy

is sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [bg. 18.66] "Just

surrender to Me. I will give you protection." And Caitanya Mahaprabhu's

philosophy is the same. He is Krsna, but as He has appeared as devotee. He

says, yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna'-upadesa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "Whomever

you meet, you Indian, bharata-vasi, you just try to understand this Krsna

philosophy, Bhagavad-gita, and make your life successful and go door to

door and say this ‘krsna'-upadesa." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam

saranam vraja [bg. 18.66]. Bas. You become guru. That is Caitanya

Mahaprabhu's mission.

 

So we should give chance to people to hear about Krsna. Therefore we are

opening so many centers. Please come and hear about Krsna. Then gradually

you will assimilate. Because Krsna and Krsna's words, they are not

different -- absolute. When we hear about Krsna, that means we are

directly associating with Krsna. And the more you associate with Krsna,

the more you become purified. Hrdy antah-stho hy abhadrani vidhunoti.

Krsna helps in washing your dirty things within the heart.

Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The same thing, Caitanya

Mahaprabhu says. Then, when we are free, tat-paratvena nirmalam, you

become purified, we become purified. Then immediately we revive our Krsna

consciousness and engage ourself in Krsna's service.

 

Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. (end)

 

(SP Srimad Bhagavatam Lecture 3.25.30 Bombay Nov 30, 1974)

[gopal]

Thanks for all the wonderful quotes!

[Guest guest]

BVI, As you have seen Krishna personally I would like to ask you an intimate question. As you know the name form and all other qualities of the Supreme Lord are absolute and there are no differences between them. For one who has experienced one, the others become subtantial. What is the name of Krishna's mala ? What is the speciality of its form ? And what is the smell ?

 

As there are many cheaters who want cheap adulation and advertise falsely that they have experienced the Lord, I am sure you will out of your humility answer these questions.

 

As you know, Srila Prabhupada challenged the bogus Gods to show the universal form. Arjuna was factually convinced of the supremacy of the Lord. But for the benefit of doubting public he asked these questions. Even Syamananda, when suspected by others, showed the mark of goloka. Even mahaprabhu was tested by sarvabhauma who was insignificant compared to him before being accepted as genuine in Puri.

 

[This message has been edited by ram (edited 05-29-2002).]

[abhi_the_great]

I too have a question to ask, dear BVI. I wd like your answer to be completely genuine and straight forward and free from pretense or false humility.

 

My purpose is not to argue and challenge, but to understand the basics of bhakti and how it developes and in whom it developes? Forgive any offences, but as you said, we do not get to the point if we are beating around the bush.

 

From the point in time when you have experienced the Lord directly till today, have you felt any sort of sexual urge. Are you completely free from material lust? Do you think it is a defenite pre-condition to obtain the mercy of the Lord, that one be completely free from sex desire?

 

Pls forgive me for my openness, but this openness is possible more easily when we are anonymous and on the internet. Otherwise, ones ego does not permit asking such questions.

 

servant

Abhi

[Krsnadas]

Just a wee bit of useful information to add to whatever may be conceived or misconceived by any recipients in the above posts.

This is an extract from the writings of Professor Nishikanta Sanyal, an intimate disciple of Srila Prabhupad Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakur.

If anyone cares to relish the whole article they can do so at:

http://sudhirgoswami.com/8%7ebooks.html

 

 

Sex and Amorous Love

 

The principle of love is not supposed by anybody as necessarily implying the reference to sex. Amorous love which involves the sexual reference is, however, regarded as a dangerous subject. It is difficult to understand how amorous love can be made to survive the complete elimination of the sexual reference as appears to be the hypocritical dream of a certain type of empirical poets and religionists. The empiricists take strong objection to the sexual element that enters most prominently and in its most repugnant form of polygamous adultery into the narrative of the pastimes of Sri Krishna. The unconventional amorous love of Vraja with its frank sexual abandon is regarded by moralists and sociologists a too strong dose especially for boys and girls of a tender age, if not also for adults who do not possess a cultured taste and imagination. The idolatry of ribald sexual passion is a most mischievous religion and is a survival of the ideal of promiscuity of the savage state out of which humanity has hardly yet emerged fully, despite the concerted labors of countless generations. No sane man can, therefore, contemplate without a shudder the prospect of being hurled back again into the condition of primitive savagery and sheer animalism. Any doctrine that leads or tends to lead, either directly or indirectly, humanity back into an ideal of promiscuous sexualism, therefore, stands self-condemned.

 

Sexuality Among Sri Chaitanya's Pseudo-Followers

 

In the paragraph just penned, I had been trying candidly to realize the position of the anti-erotist and have not scrupled to use very strong language on his side. I may also mention that he can truly point, and he has not failed to do so, to ugly facts in support of his apprehensions. The almost open debaucheries of the dregs of the so-called followers of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu have been asserted by more than one respectable writer who have not even scrupled to attribute their degradation to the teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. The fact of the wide prevalence of sexual corruption among certain sections of people, who pass themselves off as the followers of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is so painfully true that I consider it as both unnecessary and dishonest to play the role of an apologist for such persons, and shall not stop to discuss the view that the charge is an exaggeration which it possibly is.

 

Sri Chaitanya Condemns Mundane Sexuality

 

The sexual relationship which is now-a-days ordinarily sought to be regulated with the help of the principle of morality is not, so far as I am aware, condemned as wholly impure by any of the writers who object to the pernicious tendency of the teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and the Srimad Bhagavatam. They should, therefore, be surprised if they are informed that sexuality itself is condemned in the most unambiguous terms by the Srimad Bhagavatam, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and His associates and eminent followers. The difficulty that confronts me in this discourse is not due so much to the onus of proving that they do not condemn, but to the much more bewildering fact that they do condemn the very principle of sexuality as the most harmful of all the delusions to which we are subject in the state of sin.

Pseudo-Followers of Sri Chaitanya

 

The spiritual pupilage is indispensable and is the key to the situation. Those who profess to understand the Bhagavatam without having passed through the complete course of such training by the method of sincere submission to the good preceptor are denied all access to the real meaning of the narra-tives of the Bhagavatam. There are many professed followers of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who ignore the necessity of following His teachings. They reap only sin and degradation by their study of the Bhagavatam. Their misrepresentations or depraved conduct need not stand in the way of our honest inquiry into the actual doctrines of Srimad Bhagavatam in the light of the practice and teaching of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and His Associates and sincere followers.

 

Fitness for Service of Sri Krishna

 

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has declared that Sri Krishna is served properly only by the citizens- and specially the milkmaids of Vraja, and that it is not possible for anyone who is not perfectly free from sin to realize the nature of such service. It is necessary to pass through a regular course of spiritual training under a good preceptor to be able to understand what it really is and to be able to practice it. By attaining such service, we realize the eternal function of our souls. This service cannot be performed by means of this body or mind. It is performed by the pure soul who is absolutely free from all worldly hankerings including the sexual. This service is a matter of spiritual realization and not of apish imitation with the help of our present ribald imagination. By sincere, that is to say, convinced submission to the rules of spiritual pupilage as laid down in the scriptures and expounded by competent teachers, one is enabled to attain to such perfect purity of mind. The Absolute Truth manifests Himself of His Own accord, for He has the power of taking the initiative, to the mind that is thus purified in the sincere effort of seeking after Himself. Absolute purity of the mind is attainable. Relative purity is a delusion and a snare, and will not serve the purpose at all. The Bhagavatam should never be read without bearing in mind these warnings of the -scriptures. Otherwise, there will be the absolute certainty of confounding the spiritual with the material, and being punished with the acquisition of a positive repugnance for the medicine which alone can heal the distemper of mortality, or- misapplying the same to one’s utter ruin. It is not the counsel of intolerance or superstitious faith, but the highest conclusion of the unbiased reason in its effort to be absolutely loyal to its own constituent principles. The above position has been reached by the proper exercise of rationality which is the one unerring guide of our real self.

 

The spiritual milkmaids of Vraja serve Sri Krishna with all their spiritual senses and for His satisfaction alone. Sri Krishna is a real Person. He is the sole Proprietor of everything. We are His property. Our eternal senses are also His property. He has got senses like our souls who emanate after His Image. Our present material senses are an unwholesome perversion of the reality. At present, we want to serve ourselves by means of our senses.

 

Our Idea of Enjoyers—A Delusion

 

What we actually do, although we are not fully conscious of this, is that we only serve our senses, because our souls are so constituted that they can offer, but cannot receive any service from the Served. As we cannot serve our-selves, if we also do not want to serve Sri Krishna, we are thereby reduced to the necessity of self--delusion. In this deluded state, we wrongly suppose ourselves to be the proprietors of our senses, that is to be like Sri Krishna. This applies equally to either sex. The males as well as the females of this world equally regard themselves as the owners of their senses, and their senses, as the means of self-gratification. In this sense all of us, irrespective of sex, are males, i. e., masters or enjoyers in the spiritual sense, although this is a delusion; because by constitution we are not masters but servants. Sri Krishna is the only Master of everything including our souls. This fact is reflected in a perverted way in the principle of sex. We belong to the category of property to which our senses also belong. Hence, it is practicable to identify ourselves with our senses in the deluded state of sin, and mistake its supposed pleasure as that of ourselves. But as a matter of fact, in the spirit there is no dividing line separating the soul from its senses as master from property. All this is only very faintly perceptible to our present reason. In the fallen state, we suppose that the senses, conceived as different from ourselves, are pleased if we follow their dictates, again conceived as separate from ourselves in the exercise of our function of self- consciousness.

 

The Milkmaids of Vraja

 

The milkmaids of Vraja are the property of Sri Krishna and are fully conscious of this relationship. This attitude is expressed by saying that they are females. In Vraja the males are those who are equally spiritual, that is to say, who are not under any partial delusion when they are considered citizens including in touch with Sri Krishna. The spiritual milkmaids of Vraja are neither the masters nor the slaves of their senses as we want to be. They are not like our speculative misguided moralists who are engaged in chasing the shadow. They are the only realists. They know, which none of us really knows, that every-thing belongs to Sri Krishna, serves only Sri Krishna and that everything is also privileged to realize that Sri Krishna is his or her Master. This is the purely spiritual state. The milkmaids of Vraja alone possess this perfectly pure vision. Therefore, they alone are truly dependents, that is to say, servants of Sri Krishna reali-zing as they do that nothing, including themselves, belongs to themselves but that everything, themselves as well as their senses, belongs to Sri Krishna.

The empirical moralists overlook the fact that our senses are not really ours. We cannot make our eyes see or our noses smell. They do not obey us. They obey their real Master to Whom alone they belong. Everything is subordinate to Sri Krishna. Everything really ministers only to His pleasure. It is not inconsistent with, but the complete fulfillment of the moral principle.

 

Philosophy of Male and Female Forms

 

The female principle in the form of subordination to the male is a real fact of our spiritual existence. In all amatory phases Sri Krishna is the only Male, all the rest of us are females. This is the exact opposite of the current ideal, viz., that we are the only males and everything else is a dependent, that is to say, intended for our enjoyment. The soul functions freely in the realm of the Absolute where he is conscious of his real relationship with Sri Krishna. His function is crippled, thwarted and distorted the moment he chooses to set up as master on his own account, that is to say, wants to play the role of a male. This perverted activity is stopped on all sides by the resistance of the Absolute Truth. This mind or the ribald soul falls out with everything as soon as he falls out with Sri Krishna.

The servant of the servant

Krsna das

[raga]

Dear BVI,

 

In regards to your statement:

The siddha pranali advocates try to artificially trick the intelligence into identify with a new spiritual identity through imaginative raganuga sadhana types of seva, prior to the stage of bhava when it really happens. This is not enough of an impression to purify the intellgence and false ego to control the mind. The natural path is to serve and please the Lord and reach the stage of Bhava by the causeless mercy of Guru and Krishna. That is the process advocated by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada, and the one that works.

May I inquire about the sources of your understanding the precepts of "the siddha-pranali advocates", their practices and their theology? It appears from your writing that you label the method as insufficient or imperfect in other ways. You may want to note that the "siddha-pranali" method was followed and taught by several revered teachers in your line, for instance Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Jagannath Das Baba. I would rather depend on their discretion in this regard.

 

[Guest guest]

Raga, On the basis of what sastras do Bhakti Vinod Thakur and Jagannath Dasa Babaji teach Siddha Pranali ?

[BVI]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

I too have a question to ask, dear BVI. I wd like your answer to be completely genuine and straight forward and free from pretense or false humility.

 

My purpose is not to argue and challenge, but to understand the basics of bhakti and how it developes and in whom it developes? Forgive any offences, but as you said, we do not get to the point if we are beating around the bush.

 

From the point in time when you have experienced the Lord directly till today, have you felt any sort of sexual urge. Are you completely free from material lust? Do you think it is a defenite pre-condition to obtain the mercy of the Lord, that one be completely free from sex desire?

 

Pls forgive me for my openness, but this openness is possible more easily when we are anonymous and on the internet. Otherwise, ones ego does not permit asking such questions.

 

servant

Abhi

Its okay Abhi Prabhu, it is a good intelligent question. This is a big issue. One certainly has to give up the endeavor for money, women, and followers, take shelter of Vrindavan, develop love for the Brajabasi and serve them, worship Govardhan Hill daily, become humble and feel oneself materially exhausted (akincana) with no ownership of possessions, worship the lotus feet of Radharani, associate with Her dear devotees, and chant the holy names in order to get direct service. This is explained in the teachings of Srila Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami in Manah Siksha. It is a very important chapter of Sri Stavavali.

 

Something amazing happened to me prior to my experience. I realized that Srimati Radharani had forcibly entered my consciousness. I was thinking about Her always and seeing everything in relationship to Her and Her desire, as Her arrangement. I was seeing how the Brajabasis were the recipients of Her mercy, and were Her people, very dear to Her. It was a very special occurance, which I believe was the precursor to getting the service opportunity.

 

There were many tests, and I believe She gave me the intelligence to pass them, as least my guru confirmed that I was rewarded for passing many tests and being loyal. Things were happening around me materially like a whirlwind. Materially everything was aweful (from a materialistic point of view), but nothing at all bothered me, I was able to remain indifferent to all of it and take it as Her arrangement and mercy.

 

After the experience I was not at all interested or inclined whatsoever to engage in any type of sense gratification. There was no pleasure in eating, and I rarely even bothered to do that.

 

I was as if haunted by this experience and would remain alone just to relish the memory of it which would cause me to lay down and cry for hours on end. I would get into writing about it, reading my acaryas writings which were all confirming it, which would make me cry more by appreciating how merciful they are, and She is, and so on and so on. It would never end and I would have just left my body absorbed and obsessed in thoughts about Her and wanting to serve again.

 

I was internally forced to make a decision. a) I live a recluse life wandering here and there so I can be alone to relish this, or I repress it and normalize my mind and emotions so that I can be effective in continuing my preaching work. There was no way I could function amidst any society, even brajabasis, in that condition.

 

It was perceived externally by everyone as madness. People were asking people that knew me what happened to me all of a sudden and how I have become mad? I was unable to execute my daily maintenance routine, nothing else matter than to relish this nectar, write poems, read, cry, chant, and so on, as I was inspired. I don't wan to scare anyone, but I want to make one point I realize now why Srila Prabhupada wrote what he wrote, "work now, samadhi later." You cannot work and be in samadhi like that.

 

Samadhi means nirjan bhajan, alone, because you are not sociable, socially acceptable, or at all interested in associating with others. The more you associate, the more the ecstasy goes away. Just like when Mahaprabhu realized materialists were present, the ecstasy he felt seeing Ramananda Raya faded and He normalized. It is like that, and preaching means to live amongst followers and people who are not so ecstatic to look at.

 

Also, you are very cautious about making offenses, even mental ones. In that state humility is so great that you realize the greatness of even your previously worst enemies and repent over and over for offending them and realize how they share in the credit for you getting the mercy as a part of the Lord's plan to purify you.

 

I was there. I am not there right now. I know how to get there, but I won't be going soon until my mission is accomplished, in this or a future lifetime, unless the Lord desires it. I am trying to resist. There is a lot of work to do. That is my obligation to my Gurus, who tirelessly worked to benefit me and you, at the expense of their own nirjan bhajan, which is nothing but pure bliss.

 

Anyway I thank you for asking these questions because it is bringing back those moments in my life, I have been too busy to preaching to relish. I wish I had more time.

 

Your Servant

[BVI]

Originally posted by raga:

Dear BVI,

 

In regards to your statement:

May I inquire about the sources of your understanding the precepts of "the siddha-pranali advocates", their practices and their theology? It appears from your writing that you label the method as insufficient or imperfect in other ways. You may want to note that the "siddha-pranali" method was followed and taught by several revered teachers in your line, for instance Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Jagannath Das Baba. I would rather depend on their discretion in this regard.

Raga Prabhu, we can say many things about the previous acaryas, but how much do we actually know for a fact? One thing I know for a fact is that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura warns his followers in Sri Bhajan Rahasya that one should not contemplate a siddha deha until he reaches the stage of bhava, otherwise his intelligence becomes bewildered.

 

I know that certain grand disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta are claiming that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's revelation of his spiritual identity through one of his songs (in Saranagati I believe) is proof that he practiced and taught the siddha pranali process.

 

Unfortunately for those attached to this position, every direct disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta that was interviewed over the last 25 years by a close associate of mine (practically every GM sannyasi alive) tells the opposite, that Srila Bhativinoda Thakura attained his siddha deha through nama bhajan and not through the siddha pranali method. Who is the authority in this case?

 

The fact that the story of the Jaiva Dharma novel incorporates the sidha pranali process into its storyline means absolutely nothing in terms of validating it as a method to be propagated by followers of our line. In fact, siddha pranali lends itself to story telling more than nama bhajan. What could you write about nama bhajan? He chanted and chanted and chanted and chanted and his spiritual identity was revealed, end of story. It doesn't make for such an interesting story as "The rasa guru revealed this and that" and so on. Srila Bhaktivinoda does not express his preference or practice of this siddha pranali method anywhere in his writings that I am aware of.

 

He mentions in Jaiva Dharma that there are two methods of entering into rasa taught by Mahaprabhu to two different disciples. One was taught to Swarupa Damodara Gosvami (the internal method) who entrusted his notes to Srila Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami (who we follow--Rupa-Raghunatha), and the other to Vrakreshvara Pandita (the external method), which made it to Dhyanachandra Gosvami (the siddha pranali process we don't follow).

 

Srila Bhaktivinda Thakura had a specific mission, and his writings are meant to appeal to all classes of Vaishnavas as the pioneer and reviver of Vaishnavism after a period of utter decay and ruin of the sampradayas coming from Mahaprabhu. He was a unifying principle and that is still evident today.

 

Even the Radha Kunda Babajis who blaspheme Srila Bhaktisiddhanta quote from, sing and glorify the songs and teachings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. He was sowing the seeds of future unity which we are yet to realize, but hopefully soon to witness when all these issues become clarified and everyone surrenders.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had another mission, which was to prepare the philosophical ground for establishing an international society of Vaishnavas by showing how proving how anyone can become a Vaishnavas and that a Vaishnava is equal to and greater than a brahmana. This was all in preparation for Srila Prabhupada who established KC around the world for the first time and established the lawbooks of human civilization or the next 10,000 years all over the world.

 

Siddha Pranali is not the method that will globally awaken the fallen souls to Krishna consciousness. That is proven. Nama bhajan, chanting Hare Krishna is the universally applicable method and best strategy which has been successfully implemented by our previous acaryas. ISKCON is not a bhajan asrama, it is an international society meant to show world leaders by example how to make entire nations and entire planets Krishna conscious. Therefore we do things like varnasrama, cow protection, agriculture, and so on. What world leader will agree that all the people of his nation will be begging for food on madhukari?

 

I personally cannot follow Srila Bhaktivinoda without first following Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, though unlike you, I fail to see the contradiction. We follow Rupa-Raghunatha. That is our superior method of bhajan. We don't claim to follow two different paths. Superior path means, the path chalked out by our superiors.

 

We are not against others, but judge for yourself by the results. If one has faith in another camp let him be loyal there, but don't try to create scisms in our camp by falsely pitting one of our acaryas against the other as some have tried to scandleously do--they are one in harmonious instruction--catch up the dust of the lotus feet of Rupa-Raghunatha.

 

Even if their method or instruction differs, which it doesn't, I cannot jump so high as to ignore Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to favor Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

By looking through the smaller eyepiece of the telescope one can see the bigger picture. By doing the reverse or seeing Bhaktisiddhanta through the eyes of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, one simply becomes a proud over-intelligent offender, whose realizations will always remain very small.

 

There is alot of false and offensive propaganda being spread to destroy faith in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and I have found the main source, the Babajis at Radha Kunda. They are openly praising Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, but are blaspheming Srila Bhaktisiddhanta saying things like he wasn't even initiated--still unable to tolerate the stinging and purifying words of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (their well-wisher) that continue to echo across the prema-filled waters of Radha-kunda even 70 years later. When they surrender to him and acknowledge his greatness, they will be qualified to taste real nectar. If they do not, the caravan will still pass. (I admit there may be expections to the rule and there may be some who appreciate him--I am not refering to them if any such persons exist).

 

Your Servant

[BVI]

Originally posted by Krsnadas:

This is an extract from the writings of Professor Nishikanta Sanyal, an intimate disciple of Srila Prabhupad Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakur.

 

Sex and Amorous Love

The servant of the servant

Krsna das

Thanks Krishna Prabhu. I read it once and it seemed okay. It appears to be in order philosophically.

 

Your Servant

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna. What is the relevance of your personal realization, even if true, to the external world as they cannot validate it ? In most of the cases where the devotees publicly exhibited realization, it was either the Lord's plan to glorify the devotee or the devotee's desire to "prove" the factual existence and mercy of the Lord for the benefit of the conditioned souls. In your case, it is not the latter because as you said it is not proveable. If it is the former, there is no need for you to stay anonymous.

[Audarya lila]

Originally posted by BVI:

 

Govinda-virahena me. Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. This is

krsna-prema: without Krsna, one should see everything vacant. This is

Radharani's prema.

 

But that is not possible for ordinary human being. It might be possible for

Caitanya Mahaprabhu and few devotees. Just like His immediate disciples,

the Six Gosvamis, they were also following the same principle. In the

Vrndavana the Six Gosvamis used to live. But they were seeking Krsna,

becoming mad.

 

he radhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-suno kutah

sri-govardhana-kalpa-padapa-tale kalindi-vane kutah

ghosantav iti sarvato vraja-pure khedair maha-vihvalau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

So they were mad after Krsna: "Where is Krsna?" They never said, "We have

seen Krsna."

Dear BVI,

 

This appears to be more the standard. When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was asked if he had seen Krsna he answered that the question was wrong. If he says yes, what will the gentleman do with the answer - how will it help him? Same if he says no.

 

In fact, in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta this is the standard. Devotees may or may not have personal experiences as you have written about, but the standard is that they are personal and not for public consumption.

 

Furthermore, it was also the standard of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta that external shows of devotion or claims of revelation were not well thought of. As you said in one post, work now - samadhi later. The standard is very clear - proper conduct and performance of sadhana. We know that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Srila Prabhupada - all were great acharyas - presumably with great spiritual insight and actual experience in lila seva. Yet, their writings are curiously devoid of any hint of such, with the obvious exception of Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

 

I agree with the idea that a devotee's past should not be considered, but certainly their present is very important. That is why one is advised to observe the spiritual master, or aspiring disciple (depending on who is doing the observing) for at least a year prior to committing oneself.

 

So an obvious question for anyone who presents themselves as a Guru or an authority on spiritual life is who are you? Where do you live? Whom do you associate with? What are your daily habits? And so many other things come to mind as well. Krsna has given a very good description of what to expect the life and mental make-up of his pure devotee to be. Without knowing anything about you other than you claim to have had some personal experiences and that you have at least a rudimentary grasp of Gaudiya siddhanta, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

[Prema108]

BVI sounds amazingly like Valaya of the Gopi bhava club, does he not?

[raga]

Originally posted by ram:

Raga, On the basis of what sastras do Bhakti Vinod Thakur and Jagannath Dasa Babaji teach Siddha Pranali ?

Ram, in Gaudiya theology we understand that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu brought an unprecedented gift of divine love to this world, something which had not been seen earlier during the present day of Brahma.

 

The Gosvamis developed and systematized the theology and practices of Mahaprabhu, and though they derived much of their precepts from the old scriptural tradition, given that Mahaprabhu brought something new to this world, it is not reasonable to expect that each and every detail of their religious practices will ever be found in the scriptures predating Sri Caitanya.

 

In addition to this question, you could for instance ask:

 

1. Based on which sruti a pancama-purusartha exists as a goal beyond moksa?

 

2. From which sruti is the term "acintya bhedabheda-tattva" derived?

 

3. In which sruti are gopi-prema and parakiya-rasa declared as the pinnacle of bhakti?

 

4. In which sruti is Goloka declared to be the pinnacle of the spiritual world?

 

Etc.

 

I take this to be the unique and wonderful contribution of Sri Caitanya. If anyone is unwilling to embrace it, he certainly has the freedom to do so.<small><font color=white>

 

[This message has been edited by raga (edited 05-29-2002).]

[Audarya lila]

Dear Prema108,

 

I know that Valaya is interested in this topic because he has copied much of it onto the isthagosthi forum members board. Beyond that I don't personally think that BVI sounds much like Valaya nor would I categorize Valaya as a member of the gopi bhava club.

 

Valaya has shared his personal experiences on this forum and in that sense may have some similarity to BVI, but beyond that I wouldn't draw any comparison.

 

Having said that, I will also say that I have been wrong before and I am quite sure will be again.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[raga]

One thing I know for a fact is that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura warns his followers in Sri Bhajan Rahasya that one should not contemplate a siddha deha until he reaches the stage of bhava, otherwise his intelligence becomes bewildered.

To discover the teachings of Bhaktivinoda on sravana-dasa etc. Do you know his theology of panca-dasa? I invite you to study the fifteenth chapter of his Harinama Cintamani entitled "Bhajan Pranali". You can study a comprehensive translation online at http://discussions.raganuga.com , in the "Translations" - section.

 

Would you like to present the statement of Bhajan Rahasya along with the original text for our evaluation? It appears to contradict Bhaktivinoda's teachings in Caitanya Siksamrtam and Jaiva Dharma in this regard.

 

 

Unfortunately for those attached to this position, every direct disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta that was interviewed over the last 25 years by a close associate of mine (practically every GM sannyasi alive) tells the opposite, that Srila Bhativinoda Thakura attained his siddha deha through nama bhajan and not through the siddha pranali method. Who is the authority in this case?

There is a written diksa-patra, or a certificate of initiation, given to Bhaktivinoda by Vipina Vihari Gosvami of Baghnapada. Bhaktivinoda himself received siddha-pranali from Vipina Vihari Gosvami, and he indeed passed this very same lineage onwards to several of his disciples -- to whom he bestowed the same siddha-pranali as well.

 

It appears that you are not much acquainted with the theology of siddha-pranali. Siddha-pranali does not mean the bestowal of perfection. Perfection is always attained through nama-bhajana, and siddha-pranali is an aid in the realm of nama-bhajana.

 

By the way, do you know what siddha-pranali means? If so, please explain.

 

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda does not express his preference or practice of this siddha pranali method anywhere in his writings that I am aware of.

You may wish to study Harinama Cintamani and Caitanya Siksamrtam in this regard.

 

 

Even the Radha Kunda Babajis who blaspheme Srila Bhaktisiddhanta quote from, sing and glorify the songs and teachings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. He was sowing the seeds of future unity which we are yet to realize, but hopefully soon to witness when all these issues become clarified and everyone surrenders.

1. Please specify who are "Radha Kunda Babajis". Moreover, please specify who blasphemes, and where.

 

2. Please specify who quote his writings and sing his songs.

 

It appears to me that much of your assumptions in regards to traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not based on your personal studies and acquaintance with the same, but rather on information heard from someone who heard it from someone and so on.

 

 

Siddha Pranali is not the method that will globally awaken the fallen souls to Krishna consciousness. That is proven.

Nama-kirtana is the method for awakening the masses. This is declared everywhere in the Gaudiya Granthas. Moreover, nama-kirtana is the method for attaining premAveza. Who claims otherwise?

 

By the way, "siddha-pranali" is not a "method". Do you know what it means?

 

 

There is alot of false and offensive propaganda being spread to destroy faith in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and I have found the main source, the Babajis at Radha Kunda. They are openly praising Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, but are blaspheming Srila Bhaktisiddhanta saying things like he wasn't even initiated--still unable to tolerate the stinging and purifying words of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (their well-wisher) that continue to echo across the prema-filled waters of Radha-kunda even 70 years later.

As you boldly present this, I can also boldly declare that you have never discussed for five minutes with any prominent babaji at Radhakund. Am I right?

 

Can you explain, how did you find that source of offensive propaganda and blasphemy? Moreover, please specify the source. I know most of the prominent people there. Let me know who among them it is who spreads this propaganda. Please do.

 

In closing, I would like to make two points:

 

1. It is awkward if representatives of one sub-branch of the Caitanya tree suddenly claim to having become the entire tree, around which all of its other branches and sub-branches should entwine, and without which the other branches become meaningless.

 

2. In following the precepts of Narottama Das Thakura (PBC 68), we are to keep confidential realizations hidden deep within the heart, and not be talkative about them on the marketplace.

 

[BVI]

Originally posted by ram:

Hare Krishna. What is the relevance of your personal realization, even if true, to the external world as they cannot validate it ? In most of the cases where the devotees publicly exhibited realization, it was either the Lord's plan to glorify the devotee or the devotee's desire to "prove" the factual existence and mercy of the Lord for the benefit of the conditioned souls. In your case, it is not the latter because as you said it is not proveable. If it is the former, there is no need for you to stay anonymous.

Ram Prabhu, I believe I have already given sufficient reason for not identifying myself. If whatever I have offered herein is of no relevance to your life then you can leave it. The relevance of my personal realization is just that, it is my personal realization. Those who are not envious can benefit from it, while those who simply argue and doubt will not. What I suspect we will find is that neophytes who lack sufficient arguments will become interested, and those closer to uttama adhikari will appreciate. Those stuck in the middle, the madhyamas will not stand to benefit due to being absorbed in argument. Srila Bhaktivinoida Thakura explains that this is the madhyamas disqualification to taste rasa.

 

I see I have to remind you all that it is not by argument, I am not claiming to be a guru, your guru, or anyone's guru. I had some experiences, and I am sharing them, and I am not asking anyone to validate them for me, pick and analyse them to death, or anything like that. I am willing to share them and describe them to the best of my knowledge and ability if you request me, if I see it is benefitting you, and if you approach me in the proper way. I can see that most of you lack the requisite culture to take advantage of this type of knowledge and will probably just end the experiment no to again repeat it having gained this insight into the limitations imposed on the transfer of knowledge by the adhikara of the recipient. Let me just say to everyone, there is something most beautiful, most sweet and most wonderful in Vrindavan and I want everyone to know about it and experience it. I realize this is not the standard method of approaching the subject, and while Srila Krishnadas Kaviraja Gosvami says he shold not tell of his personal darshan with Lord Nityananda and Lord Govinda when he went to Vrindavan for the first time, still he narrates the darshan, which he says is due to the maddening influence of Lord Nityananda. There is a precedent for telling and for not telling. Maybe I am just too shameless. If no one is benefitting from this then I will cease communication. I have other things to do, and I will take this as Radharani's indication that this is not pleasing to Her.

 

Your Servant

[abhi_the_great]

In following the precepts of Narottama Das Thakura (PBC 68), we are to keep confidential realizations hidden deep within the heart, and not be talkative about them on the marketplace.

BVI,

I feel that the fact that you have decided to talk aloud your realisations is an inspiration for all devotees in the line of Srila Prabhupada.

 

When a few devotees are questioning the legitimacy of Srila Bhakti Sidhanta, your posts, as I see it, are in defence of Srila Bhakti Sidhanta's sidhantha. In a nutshell, they are not just talking in the market place, but an inspiration to surrender to the most prominent, Simha Guru - dearest to Srimati Radharani.

 

As long as the recent prominent acaryas did not go for Sidha-Pranali, its OK with their followers. As long as the other most respected Vaishnava Acaryas are following sidha-pranali, that is also perfect, and will benefit their followers. Why do we always come to the same old point again and again. As we know there is not going to be any end result with slinging mud at each other, I think we shd just stop it PUT.

 

If we are trying to prove the illegitimacy of SBSST we are putting ourselves into a very dangerous sitution. What is the difficulty in accepting that he was a pioneering preacher, empowered by Krishna? He was dear to Krishna.

 

On the other hand if the other Great Vaishnava Acaryas are continuing the traditional line which has passed down to them, performing sidha-pranali, I do not see any need to criticise them either. Its not right to say that, they shd stop everything they have been practicing for centuries and do as we do.

 

One good thing on this board is that, we get to know of the different gaudiya Vaishnava followings. Its more a boon than a bane. Its a wonderful chance to have associated with all the wonderful Vaishnavas and understood their culture and practices. It has been extremely nice to have known Raga, Jagat, Rati, AudaryaLila, leyh, JNdas, BVI, krathik, ram, shiva, shashi, bhaktajoy, shvu, jijaji, bhaktavasya and all so many devotees. This nice envoronment in itself is what makes me keep returning here again and again.

 

Its Ok, we can accept that we differ in the details. We are different in some ways - just we accept it. But the goal is same - Goloka Vrindavan, pleasing Sri Sri RadhaKrishna and Gaura-Nitai.

 

ys

abhi

[BVI]

Originally posted by abhi_the_great:

BVI,

I feel that the fact that you have decided to talk aloud your realisations is an inspiration for all devotees in the line of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

Abhi Prabhu, you are great. I will continue to speak to you, and if others want to hear they can, or they can skip my postings. This place is nondifferent than the deepest recesses of my heart, and to get inside all you have to do is look. I am ripping open my chest to expose it to you so that you can have full faith in Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhatisiddhanta and all our previous acaryas. Of course those of an envious temprament or of an opposing camp, or sunken by offenses and/or the association of offenders of the most magnanimous and empowered acaryas every known, will ridicule, criticize, laugh, condemn, politic, and belittle. I really don't care for their behavior. I am only concerned that they not be allowed to dissuade and poison Srila Prabhupada's followers by their contrived nonsense rumors, machinations, and transcendental trickery, as I have personally witnessed. I have done the research, I know the players in this evil game of poisoning ISKCON devotees and I am launching a preventative strike on all such rascals. I am not going to advertise or glorify such rascals by mentioning their name. They know who they are, and let them be known and attacked by their symptoms. They are not deserving of any such names ending with "dasa" or "babaji" and I will not perpetrate an injustice by referring to them as such.

 

Everyone has the right to follow their own path, I agree. But they don't have the right to blaspheme my guru parampara, as long as I am still breathing, I will be counter-attacking their insidious cowardly attacks against my gurus, also following in the fiery footsteps of Hanuman. That is my duty and my vow.

 

When a few devotees are questioning the legitimacy of Srila Bhakti Sidhanta, your posts, as I see it, are in defence of Srila Bhakti Sidhanta's sidhantha. In a nutshell, they are not just talking in the market place, but an inspiration to surrender to the most prominent, Simha Guru - dearest to Srimati Radharani.

 

As long as the recent prominent acaryas did not go for Sidha-Pranali, its OK with their followers. As long as the other most respected Vaishnava Acaryas are following sidha-pranali, that is also perfect, and will benefit their followers.

[BVI]

Originally posted by Audarya lila:

Dear BVI,

 

This appears to be more the standard. When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was asked if he had seen Krsna he answered that the question was wrong. If he says yes, what will the gentleman do with the answer - how will it help him? Same if he says no.

 

In fact, in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta this is the standard. Devotees may or may not have personal experiences as you have written about, but the standard is that they are personal and not for public consumption.

Guest (3): Have you seen Krsna?

Prabhupäda: Yes. You are not seeing? Why you are so blind?

 

Srimad-Bhägavatam 6.1.15 -- London, July 30, 1971

 

Prabhupada: ...Are you following blindly or you have experience of Krsna? Yes. What will be the answer? It’s a very intelligent question. People will ask you, perhaps they ask, “Have you seen Krsna?” “Why you are Krsna conscious?” What is your answer?

Devotee: You see Him through sastra and the teachings of the spiritual master and His arca-vigraha.

Prabhupäda: Of course that’s nice, but then you are following blindly your spiritual master. What is your experience?

Devotee: Your heart becomes pure.

Prabhupäda: Hm.

Devotee: First you can hear Krsna before you see Him and this is a purification process. And the purification process can be felt and then you ask the person, “You can feel it yourself by chanting Hare Krsna, why not try it?”

Prabhupäda: That’s all right, you have tried, whether you have seen? That is the question. You have tried for the last four or five years, whether you have seen Krsna?

Devotee: We cannot see Krsna because our eyes are impure...

Prabhupäda: Then you are following blindly.

 

Srimad-Bhägavatam 7.7.19-20 -- Bombay, March 18, 1971

 

 

Reporter: Have you realized the highest truth yourself?

Prabhupäda: Certainly.

Reporter: You have?

Prabhupäda: Oh, yes.

Reporter: At what age did you realize God?

Prabhupäda: I can deliver to you also.

Reporter: Pardon me?

Prabhupäda: I can deliver to you also if you want.

Reporter: My question to you is at what age did you realize God?

Prabhupäda: God is a person like you and me. The difference is that we are also persons. We are many, and God is one, leader. Now, what is the difference between this one and we many? He maintains all these many, and we are maintained by Him, but He is also a person like you and me. Do you follow?

Reporter: Yes, I do, but Swamiji, my question to you was a bit more pointed than that. I appreciate the answer you just gave me, but at what age did you realize the highest truth? At what physical age...?

Prabhupäda: There is no question of age. Realization of God should be educated from the very beginning of life.

Reporter: Oh, I understand that, Swamiji. My question to you was at what age did you yourself in this physical incarnation realize the highest truth?

Prabhupäda: Of course, we were born in a very nice family. My father educated me in this way. So practically from the very beginning of our life we were educated in this way.

Reporter: Oh, no, I understand that. I mean at what time did you have your own personal realization, Swamiji? At what age?

Prabhupäda: Well, that I can say from the age, say, four or five years.

Reporter: At the age of four or five years?

Prabhupäda: Yes. That’s a fact.

 

Interview -- March 5, 1975, New York

 

To be continued...